U.S. hits Fallujah mosque

[leftchick]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/27/MNGOF6BL6V1.DTL

<snip>Baghdad -- A protracted firefight between Marines and insurgents in a Fallujah suburb Monday culminated with U.S. helicopter gunships and tanks firing at a mosque and toppling its minaret, further dimming hopes for a peaceful end to the three-week siege of the city.

The U.S. command said the battle erupted when insurgents, breaching a shaky cease-fire in Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad, used the mosque to launch rocket-propelled grenades and small-arms fire at Marine positions. After two hours, pinned down by fire, the Marines called in helicopters and tanks, which directed "suppressing fire" at the mosque, the command said.

One Marine was killed and eight others wounded in the battle, which also killed eight insurgents, an American spokesman said. He said commanders still intended to go ahead with a plan to send U.S. troops on joint patrols with Iraqi security forces into contested parts of the city. But that plan, put forward by Fallujah civic leaders on Sunday to avert a full-scale American invasion, appeared to be in jeopardy.

With Iraq's prospects of resuming progress toward a peaceful handover of sovereignty on June 30 hanging uneasily in the balance, developments in Fallujah were echoed by fresh tensions at Najaf, 100 miles south of Baghdad, which has been the focal point of a separate confrontation.

[CharlieBakerAble]

1. No choice if they are using it to try and kill you

It's legal to attack whatever the enemy is using to try and kill you.

[Kremer]

2. Ahhhhhhhhh, another fine mornin in Error-Raq! Basically, I wake up every

mornin and say "how many dead today?" Can't wait for the Fallujah blood-bath. Will someone please stop this war crime!

[Just Me]

62. CNN reporting: looks like we are bombing the hell out of Fallujah!

I am watching a live report right now.

[ze_dscherman]

3. The wrong choice has been made much earlier

by choosing Gerge W. Bush for president. Then the wrong choice was made again by not paying attention to intel warnings of a big attack on the U.S. Then, again, by choosing to attack and then forget Afghanistan. Then, once again, by choosing to invade Iraq against the worlds will. Then, again, by choosing to not bring in the U.N., but to set up a puppet regime. Then, again, wrong choice to take revenge for the killing of four mercenaries by besieging a city, and killing about 600-800 people in the process.

So, there was no choice but to level that mosque???

[CharlieBakerAble]

13. Too late to unring that bell

Right now our soldiers are being shot at so in deference to them they are correct to defend themselves even if the enemy is hiding in the mosque.

It almost sounds like some people here are siding with the ones shooting at our troops.

[saigon68]

15. Who might that be?

" It almost sounds like some people here are siding with the ones shooting at our troops."

PROVE WHERE THAT EXISTS?

[xchrom]

17. they are defending their country from invaders

they are our troops. and i don't want them killed.
but make no mistake -- we are the bad guys in this instance.
and a guy who couldn't even do his national guard service got us into this mess, a guy who knowingly lied about the cause of sending our troops into harms way got us into this mess.
we don't have fallujah surrounded -- our troops are surrounded by the entire country of iraq -- this will never stop as long as we keep doing what we are doing now.

[wildwww2]

20. Great post. We are in a mess bigger than shit. And my fellow

Marines are fighting for an unjust cause. For unjust reasons. Led by an unelected corporate puppet. Iraq is what we leathernecks called a clusterfuck. And it is going to get much worse I promise you.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[glitch]

69. FUBUSH is my term for this

cluster FUBAR.

[Barkley]

40. Great Post!

I especially like "we don't have fallujah surrounded -- our troops are surrounded by the entire country of iraq..."

That's so true.

[Just Me]

44. Wow!! You just put a whole truth in a nutshell!!

Succinct reply there "xchrom"!!!

Way to go!!!

:bounce:

We are "occupiers". That makes us the "bad guys". Further military oppression is NOT going to improve the situation. It will do the opposite and escalate the violence.

[ze_dscherman]

18. Better back out now to avoid more carnage.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1204363,00.html

And it has nothing to do with "siding with the ones shooting our troops".

I side with every innocent victim killed in that needless war. Those who participate as fighters or soldiers, participate in the murder of fellow human beings. Of course, in their own eyes, they are defending the right thing, be it "Islam and Iraq" or "Freedom and Democracy".

But, believe it or not, both sides can be wrong.

[Judi Lynn]

25. A wondrous, heart-stopping 'toon by Steve Bell.

He has had _{George Bush's} number from the first. Thanks.

[ze_dscherman]

27. I have become a fan

I check his cartoon pages at The Guardian every day. He's been spot on so many times. Another one in the great tradition of British satirists.

[JoFerret]

29. Steve Bell gets it

- the demonic idiot simian and the gleeful obedient chirpy poodle.

[saigon68]

58. Kick

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[saigon68]

43. This makes no sense

[Wells]

67. Sensible tactics

Under the current Commander-in-Chief's leadership, the war against terrorism has escalated. Opportunities to defuse the conflict were dismissed purposefully. Indeed, some US Generals, those who employ Depleted Uranium, or have chosen bloodshed rather than diplomacy are frickin' racist bastards; their only motto: DEATH

This war will NOT be won under Bush leadership. To those who support George W Bush: Prepare yourself for World War III. It's your war, you frickin bloody morons. The Bush Dynasty has long been racist and long planned for human populations culled. Your hero is a Christianazi.

The only sensible tactic to win the War against Terrorism is to reject the Bush Administration.

[BlueEyedSon]

24. If our soldiers weren't there, they wouldn't be targets.

If there were Iraqis in police/peacekeeping roles, it would be someone else getting shot (or perhaps no shooting at all!).

Sounds like someone is in favor of massacre, escalation, and inflaming the ME Muslim polulation....

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[54anickel]

32. That bell was a result of a bad decision, going into Fallujah against

all advice,
which was the result of another bad decision - to punish an entire city for the actions of a few,
which was the result of another bad decision - to go after Sadr, which was the result of another bad decision - to silence Sadr's newspaper
etc.
etc.
etc.
which was the result of another bad decision - to fudge the intelligence results to support an illegal WAR.

I'll agree, that they are being fired upon and need to protect themselves or get the hell out. But this decision will no doubt add to the top of above list that will feed another, then another, then another.
When will the incompetence stop?
When will passing the buck stop?
When will the lies and deaths based upon them stop?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dhalgren]

47. I side with the Iraqi people.

I side with anyone who is oppressed , whose country in invaded and occupied by lawless criminal facsists. I don't want any US soldier hurt or killed, but if I am honest and am against this criminal, imperialist grab of Iraq, then I must say that I am "for" the Iraqi people. I want the US out of Iraq; I wish it would happen peacefully, but I am for the US out by any means.

[Chicago Democrat]

65. Bush should be put on war crimes trial for this and every atrocity.

I side with truth and justice and international law.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skooooo]

5. That's what I was wondering.......

Our friend might be lost.

[BlueEyedSon]

26. Just follow St Ann.

[skooooo]

7. I bet if they stayed away from the mosque...

...they wouldn't get shot at from it! Sometimes just leaving people the hell alone is the best strategery.

[Philestine]

8. That is the blinkered ignoramus approach..

that will lose a war quicker than a sneeze.

Where is the thinking behind attacking a mosque with a handful of insurgents? You might kill a few hundred, but you can guarantee you just made far more enemies than you could ever count.

That's not tactics. That's morons on parade.

[tkmorris]

11. Eggs-zackly

Very simply, you don't engage them. This isn't a pissing contest, nor do you win by puffing up your chest more than the other guy. I sometimes wonder if the whole of the US military command doesn't use the same trainer as Barry Bonds.

BTW, may I offer you a belated welcome to DU? Have one on me. :beer:

[glitch]

70. morons on parade - one big long neverending parade since

12/12/2000. Welcome to DU!

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[markses]

19. LOL

Nicely done.

[RetroLounge]

39. I love you're subtlety...

:)

RL

[bowens43]

12. Ridiculous.

The US troops need to get the hell out of there. Remember the US is the aggressor in this war. The Iraqis are doing nothing more then defending their nation. There are NO legitimate military targets in Iraq. None. Zero. Zip.

No choice? BULLSHIT.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[birdbrain]

30. Hmmm, there's at least one other choice...

Clue: did the mosque come to them, or did they go to it?

[Just Me]

56. Good point, "birdbrain"!!!

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

:bounce:

[Bandit]

41. And we have to be there blowing up their holy sites ....why????

No choice at all is there??

[BeHereNow]

42. Even when you are in THEIR country ILLEGALLY?

If foreign troops were invading YOUR town with
massive military might to occupy your country
and turn your natural resources over to multi-national
corporations- what would YOU do?
Welcome to DU.
BHN

[Terran]

59. Yes, you're right.

That would, of course, make the whole invasion ILLEGAL from the get-go, since no one in Iraq was trying to kill any Americans.

[AlphaQuack]

68. Agreed.

Agreed. The soldier on the field has every right to take whatever action necessary to protect and save his life and the life of his fellow soldier.

[leftchick]

6. Why is the US letting these babies back in Fallujah....

If they are gearing up for an invasion this week?!?




Displaced Iraqis watch American soldiers while waiting to pass through a U.S. military checkpoint to return home to Fallujah, Iraq Tuesday, April 27, 2004.(AP Photo/John Moore)


Sickening... :(

[saigon68]

9. MORE VICTIMS FOR GUERNICA 2

Displaced Iraqis wait to pass through a U.S. military checkpoint to return to their homes to Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites) Tuesday, April 27, 2004.(AP Photo/John Moore)

[Disturbed]

16. The US has lost the war

on the Iraqi people.

"If liberals expect me to feel bad that the church of the pedophile godless is being bombed, they have another thing coming."

Man, it is sad that we have people like this in America. ;(

[wildwww2]

23. Why does someone get mad enough to kill? Because Iraqi`s

are godless? Let me get this straight this "moran" would kill people who do not except his version of god? How can Freepukes deny their desire to be like Hilter`s elite? It`s so obvious. They are going to hate anyone who is not in their hate club of ditto heads.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[jdj]

51. I thought we went to win "pedophile godless" hearts and

minds anyway.

It's ironic that some people act as if the left is against the troops, when in reality it's the right that hates the troops.

The republican president sent them over there without proper body armor and without armored vehicles. The republican vice-president's company has been starving them and pocketing the money. The republican administration's hospitals have been keeping them in terrible conditions and denying them medical treatment, sometimes making them wait 6 months for appointments. The republican adminstration won't let pictures of their coffins be shown, because it can't bear the thought of allowing the American public to grieve, which might expose their own lack of grief. The republicans have tried to cut benefits and pay for veterans at every turn ; I read an e-mail a couple of months ago from a woman who said her son's hazardous duty pay had been cut $200 a paycheck, because he was in a "less dangerous" part of Iraq although he is shot at several times a day.

This is my favorite example of how the republicans disrespect and disregard our troops: At 3:00 am on March 21st, 2003, 4 hours into gulf war 2, House REPUBLICANS voted to cut $14 BILLION from wounded veterans benefits to pay for their 750 billion dollar tax cut for the rich. DEMOCRATS stopped them. So which party doesn't "support our troops".

And the right that is ordering these troops to bomb these mosques is showing just how much they don't care about our troops, because they are purposely inciting attacks on soldiers that have no choice but to follow orders. This whole admin is like something out of Ayn Rand, and the people they seem to think matter least are our soldiers over there doing their bidding and making them rich.

[BeHereNow]

53. WELCOME TO DU! Great Post!

You nailed it baby!
I only want to add the fact
that OUR tax money is being used to
pay for the mercenaries...nearly 20,000 of them.
BHN

[saigon68]

54. Welcome to DU

[Just Me]

55. Right-wing betrayal of the loyalty and trust of troops and citizens,

in addition to their abuse of blood and treasure for personal gain do make the right-wing war-mongers a horror to everyone their greed and lust touches.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

I mourn the loss of all innocents.

I seek justice for the crimes committed against them.

I am determined to witness regime change here at home.

[Judi Lynn]

14. Isn't that sick? I had to wonder what the hell they were thinking, too.

They're letting them back in, knowing they're going to level the place.

What's the word for that? Cruel? Bloodthirsty? Stupid? Evil? Nothing seems intense enough to describe this kind of treachery.

[TeeYiYi]

66. That's what I've been wondering . . .

Families wait to be allowed back into their hometown of Falluja



Children are frisked at the entrance to Falluja

More: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage


TYY :cry:

[gottaB]

31. Anybody know what sort of warning was issued?

I know there were general statements warning that the US would strike mosques. Was there a specific warning issued before this particular attack?

[leftchick]

33. I have not heard of any specific warning....

Bremer has been mumbling about weapons stashes in mosques in Najaf, but no threat or warning they will attack.

[Judi Lynn]

35. I'll bet it's only a matter of time until they stop braking for mosques

altogether. I think it has been galling them that they were expected to leave the mosques alone all this time.

I think it's just a heartbeat away until we see they completely throw away all inhibitions, and blow up anything, anytime, for any reason that occurs to them.

How can anyone here prove they were NOT "fired on" from any mosque they destroy,"in retaliation?" We have to take their word for it, don't we?

No one can stop them. Damned sad to see human beings have been brought this low, when we saw ourselves as so evolved, so superior to other cultures.

[gottaB]

36. That's what I meant by warning, also the Marines spread leaflets

from LA Times (subscription)

SAQLAWIYA, Iraq — The message Monday was about mosques, and it appeared to be a tough sell.

Marines and soldiers distributed leaflets in this farming village outside the encircled city of Fallouja asking residents to keep insurgents from using the local mosque for meetings or to store weapons.

Included in the message was a warning: If insurgents shoot at U.S. forces from mosques, the buildings will lose their protected status and will be fired on.

Insurgents Endanger Mosques, US Military Warns Iraqis....

[leftchick]

45. so sad....

more deaths for the aWol* chimps scorecard.... :(

[JIHAD3001]

46. MOSQUES

If the police in American fired into a christian church, people would be angry. Every Marine that has fired at a mosque should be tried as a war criminal.

[saigon68]

49. Welcome to Du---- JIHAD3001

CharlieBakerAble ----will be back here shortly----- to debate the merits of your suggestion.

[Terran]

61. No, sorry

I know we're there illegally, but using a house of worship as a base from which to attack people, whether the attack is justified or not, robs that house of worship of its status as holy ground, in my opinion. It's becomes just another target.

If a bunch of white supremacists were holed up in a church and using it as cover to lob grenades at the authorities, you think they wouldn't be justified in firing back at the church? Puleeze.

[St. Jarvitude]

64. There's a world of difference between "firing back" and "toppling"

We let loose a reckless barrage of fire from gunships and tanks upon a structure, resulting in its near total annihilation. If the cops did that -- toppled the church bell tower or caved in the sanctuary roof -- to a church, WITH TOTAL DISREGARD FOR ANY INNOCENTS THAT MAY BE INSIDE (Waco, anyone?), you can bet your ass I'd be mighty pissed off.

edit: formatting error. I should learn to use "Preview."

[loathesomeshrub]

72. Especially if the people doing the firing were from a different country

occupying this one.....I don't think we would consider anything we did to fight back unreasonable.

[rinsd]

60. There was a general warning....

That any attacks originating from mosques would negate their being off-limits.

[jmcgowanjm]

48. US must destroy Fallujah/ Then openly make Colony of Iraq

It is not the war of civilizations Samuel Huntington has warned
of. Yet this is no war of the poor against the rich either,
though this opinion is common. It is a war of envy, the war
of "political non-achievers" against "excellent pupils." It is a
war of rich men that are getting poor, of political bankrupts
who have wasted the natural rent and are now trying to
hound their own dissidents, including Osama bin Laden,
on outside enemies. It is a war of the unsuccessful against
the successful, no matter who they are from the Islamic point
of view, whether Israel or the USA, China or Europe, India
or Russia. Today's Iraq is a front of this war. Probably, it will
be the front to witness a new Stalingrad battle, a decisive
combat that will determine the winner.

http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2004/04/15/53432.html

The reason no independent Iraq would be an ally of the U.S.
in the Middle East is that U.S. Middle East policy is based
on support for Israel. Furthermore, Israel became an ally of
the U.S. after 1967 precisely because of U.S. hostility
to democratic Arab movements (which tended to be against
U.S. control of their economies). There is an inextricable
link, therefore, between support for Israel, opposition to
Arab self-determination and the need to control Middle
East resources. Each of these three elements depends on
and reinforces the two others.

The only change in policy that will make a dramatic, long-
term positive effect on U.S. Middle East relations would be for
the U.S. to dump Israel. Unless that happens, the U.S.
is doomed to fight in the Middle East all the way down to
financial ruin. And until that happens, offering advice is
neither useful nor right.

http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1896&mode=thread&order=0

[Dhalgren]

50. Killer analysis and dead on!

[Hotler]

52. DAMN!

Damn,damn, that's all I can say.:shrug:

[PfcHammer]

57. Coalition Officials Defend Attack on Iraqi Minaret

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Apr2004/n04272004_200404271.html

Coalition Officials Defend Attack on Iraqi Minaret
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, April 27, 2004 — Coalition officials in Baghdad today defended the U.S. Marines' decision to call in a strike on a minaret in Fallujah April 26 after determining that insurgents were using it to launch attacks with small- arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

"We very reluctantly go after holy sites, but when those holy sites are used to store and fire weapons, we must take action if our Marines are pinned down," Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy operations director for Combined Joint Task Force 7, told reporters at a news conference.

The Marines confirmed that insurgents were using the minaret as a staging platform following an attack earlier in the day. After cordoning off the area, they entered the mosque and found "a significant number of ammunition shell casings," Kimmitt said. Following the search, the Marines returned to their positions without damaging the minaret.

Kimmitt said the Marines called in the strike only after taking fire from the minaret the second time that day and realizing that their return fire was not enough to take out the enemy. This, he said, left the Marines with a choice: "Am I going to let my fellow Marines die, or am I going to recognize that that minaret has lost its protected status under international law and is being used as a firing platform and needs to go away?"

<snip>

[laruemtt]

63. y'all see the live footage on

msnbc? it's hell on earth. explosions everywhere. it even sounds like hell. what hath * wrought?...................

[Lorien]

71. UGH!

Local news is crowing about how the US is "making good" on their threats, and marveling over the wonders of the AC130 (?-not sure if I'm recalling it correctly) aircraft. They have a military spokesperson GRINNING as he lists the capabilities of this aircraft and what it has "accomplished" for America today.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[The_Casual_Observer]

73. Shows the world not to mess with Cheney and his SS

Somehow though, God has a way of dealing with these SS guys eventually.