Kerry Takes Communion After Vatican Edict

[kskiska]

Maybe they'd just better get used to it.

BOSTON - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) received communion from a Catholic priest Saturday, one day after a top Vatican (news - web sites) cardinal said politicians who support abortion rights should be denied the Eucharist.

Kerry took communion during the 6 p.m. mass at Boston's Paulist Center, where campaign spokesman David Wade said the candidate regularly worships. The church is close to the Beacon Hill home Kerry shares with his wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry.

"We're following the directive of our archdiocese," said Father Joe Ciccone, who gave Kerry the Eucharist. "They have said we should give him communion."

The Paulist Center attracts Catholics uncomfortable with some of the Vatican's orthodox teachings or who otherwise feel alienated from the Roman Catholic Church.

more…
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&e=3&u=/ap/kerry_s_church

[Syrinx]

1. excuse my ignorance about Catholicism, but I've been wondering

If one is denied communion, does that mean you can't get into heaven, or what?

[Nobody]

3. As someone who grew up Catholic and attended Catholic schools

I really don't know. My guess is that it's a symbolic gesture.

[AlecBGreen]

47. Communion is hard to sum up

but Ill try. First off the Catholics and Protestants view it differently (DUH). Catholics believe (as far as I know, Im Lutheran) that if you die with an unforgiven sin hanging over you, then off to hell you go. The way for a Catholic to recieve forgiveness of sins is to recieve Communiuon, confess your sins to a priest, and perform the penance he sets down. If you do those things then your sins are forgiven. Protestants (at least us Lutherans) have a different view. Communion is meant to bring you closer to God by providing a ritual which reenacts the last Supper. By participating in Communion we hear Jesus' words and try to do as he said. "Take and eat, this is my body broken for thee. Do this in remembrance of me." Basically hes saying that he will always be availible to us, all we have to do is accept his gracious offering and recieve it with thanksgiving. If you miss communion and then die you can still get into heaven. Sorry if this doesnt make sense; most Christians dont fully understand all the meanings of communion ...

-Alec

[alcuno]

48. Here it is from "The Catechism of the Catholic Church."

Straight from the Vatican....

"1415 Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance." I'm unaware of any mortal sin. Besides, it's your own decision.


I'm SHOCKED to learn that members of the Catholic hierarchy are getting involved in politics. As a Catholic, I'm aware that we have a VERY long and VERY checkered past. Too bad we can't ever seem to keep it there.

[hippywife]

49. Where they make their big mistake

is assuming a state of grace is theirs to bestow.

[patriotvoice]

6. The Council of Trent, Canon I, sums it up:

"If anyone shall deny that the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure - let him be accursed!"

There is substantially more to the meaning and implications of Communion, but to the non-Catholic, let us simply say that not taking or being denied Communion is a Bad Thing.

[question everything]

11. And how does this fit with the "rupture"

or the "left behind" or...?

[shrike]

28. I went to Catholic schools and never heard much about the rapture

I didn't really know what it meant until I went to college and had a fundie roommate. Seems to be more of a bible-thumping, fundie thing.

[Bill McBlueState]

74. the rapture was invented in the 19th century

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm

I once heard that the John Darby guy who made it up was a former math professor.

[Roaming]

80. I was taught that the rapture is actually a concept--it is simply the

answer to the question of what will happen to all the Christians both dead and alive, when Jesus returns to the earth. It's addressed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." See also Romans 8:23; Titus 2:13; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

The word rapture is derived from the Latin “Raptus” meaning the state or experience of being carried away.

[TahitiNut]

26. The Council of Trent was a repudiation of Martin Luther's stance.

The Roman Catholic Church maintains the posture of "transsubstantiation" - i.e. that the host is truly transformed into the body and blood of Christ. The Lutheran Church maintains the posture of "cosubstantiation" - i.e. that the body and blood of Christ are infused within the host.

[Merlin]

29. Good point. And still the stance today. It clearly ratifies cannibalism.

How can there be any two ways about it? The RC church which I grew up in ratifies cannibalism, clear and simple.

What is so preposterous and idiotic about this doctrine is that it had absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Yeshua (or "Jesus" in Greek). The "Last Supper" was an invention of Paul, who never met Jesus. Further, Paul never asserted transubstantiation. He was a spiritualst who believed in the ressurection as something spiritual. Therefore, his view of what later came to be called the "Eucharist" was spiritual not literal.

It's hard to understand why the church insists on this silly stance. It is extremely off-putting to most non-Catholics in the world.

[TahitiNut]

31. Well, cannibalism was far more widespread than most imagine.

The practice of mourners eating a piece of the deceased flesh or drinking some of their blood was relatively widespread 2,000 years ago.

Christianity co-opted MANY pagan practices and rituals as part of its expansionism, the most benign of which are the various holidays ("holy days") carefully scheduled to coincide with pagan holy days.

[Merlin]

33. Where do you find this? It's news to me. Certainly was not part of Jewish

tradition. The Jews were outraged by Paul's assertion.

However, since Paul was from the Mithraic town of Tarsus, where the Zoroastrian God Mithras was worshipped, and since that tradition included the ritual of killing a bull then drinking its blood and eating it--all intertwined with spiritual rapture--it's clear where Paul got the notion from.

I've never heard what you are saying about pagan traditions wrt the deceased. Do you have a reference for that? Sounds fascinating.

[TahitiNut]

36. Google "religious cannibalism"

That's a start. :shrug: I have no idea where/when I first learned this, but I may have more recently read about the pervasiveness of this practice in one of Karen Armstrong's books.

[Merlin]

56. I'll try google. Read most of Armstrong without seeing it. Thanks. n/t

.

[MetaTrope]

75. Sort of like...

placenta consumption?

[sandnsea]

8. It means you're in sin

Me, for example. I'm not married in the Church. I'm living in sin. I don't take communion at the Catholic Church. Don't even ask me why, I have no freakin' idea. If I WERE married in the Catholic Church, I would march right up there because I think they're wrong on abortion and birth control. For some reason that I can't even explain, I accept the sacrament of marriage as a holy thing and I just don't take communion. At the Catholic Church anyway. I do at other churches.

I think Catholics just accept that our religion doesn't make any sense at all. Like, I said, don't ask.

[Syrinx]

15. at least you have a religion to look up to

I'm a Baptist by birth. Baptists in general suck, but there are plenty of exceptions. I have no tradition.

[The_Casual_Observer]

64. Catholic Church seems to promote the bush agenda

As long as they do, it is hard not to reject the Catholic church.
Anyway after all the scandals, I would think that they are in no position to be taking this kind of a bold political stand.

[Matilda]

17. No, not as I understand it (I'm Catholic, but by means an expert on Canon

Law). I think it's more like a warning, but for a practising
Catholic, it's awfully hard to go to Mass and not receive communion.

Excommunication is the formal rite of cutting a person off from
receiving the sacraments, and is a very heavy thing to do. I
personally feel it is such a dreadful thing to do, that I don't
believe that Christ could ever have intended such a thing to be
done in His name - not the Christ of the Gospels anyway, who is
perhaps not always the Christ of the Church. And Vatican II stressed
the importance of individual conscience, meaning that if someone
genuinely feels that they are doing something that is right, that
takes precedence over all but the most serious of the Church's
doctrines (like, stealing and murder can never be right, however
someone may try to justify it).

I found this interesting link, which explains the rules of
excommunication very well - I must admit I certainly didn't know
the "fine print" of the rules until I read this piece on freedom
of choice:

http://www.cath4choice.org/new/opeds/062900ProChoice&ProChurch.htm

It makes the situation a lot clearer.

[SemperEadem]

18. In the end, it means nothing

it's a manipulation tool used for mind control. Once upon a time, paying indulgences to the Roman Catholic Church meant that you could hook up a relative with shorter time in spent in purgatory. "For just $1500, we can get Satan to turn the heat down on your uncle for about 40 years".

Anyone can march up to the altar and receive communion, even those who are not Catholic. It's time for a break with Rome.

[Matilda]

19. I agree with you about the manipulation, and it used to work,

back in the dim dark past when education was poor, or non-existent.
These days, it's not so easy - certainly in Australia, I think most
Catholics use what they agree with, and ignore anything else. It's
probably pretty much the same in most western countries.

As an example, back even in the sixties, Confession was held in most
Catholic churches on Saturdays for about two hours in the morning,
and two or three late afternoon, with more than one priest hearing
Confessions at the same time in big churches or the cathedral.
Nowadays, in our church at least, Confession is a half-hour on
Saturday afternoon, which means most Catholics are happy to make
their own peace with God in their own way, which is as it should be.
Sometimes it's good to be able to talk over a particular problem
with a priest, but it's a matter of choice.

I know it probably seems weird anyway to Protestants, but things
really have changed a lot over the past thirty years. Only I don't
think Rome has realised it yet.

[question everything]

40. I had a friend who started his "lapsing" because of the confession

he said something to the effect that he was basically a good person, but had to go and confess for sins...

[Matilda]

66. It's hard to do, but you often feel much better afterwards.

Depends a lot on the priest - whether he's humane and understanding,
or just goes by the book. But it should be a matter of choice or
need, and not a matter of being damned if you don't.

[NashVegas]

77. Try Interdict & Excommunication

If Rome really wants to test its power, it can excommunicate Kerry and place Mass. under interdict, refuse all rites to everyone until he gets on his hands and knees and begs forgiveness.

That's what they used to do in medieval times. Basically it was a signal to someone's enemies to go ahead and invade.

[KittyWampus]

22. Being Denied Communion Only Happens When You've Been Excommunicated

a very drastic step.

The Cardinal, in saying pro-choice politicians should be denied communion is suggesting they be excommunicated.. as that is what he is effectively saying.

The Cardinal in the Vatican who has gone down this path of singling out one profession regarding the issue of choice/abortion has stepped over a line.

[Matilda]

67. Yes, I think he has. Excommunication really means being but off

from all the sacraments - not only communiion, but marriage, or the
last rites if you were dying, and it has to be official, not just
someone speaking off the cuff in the Vatican.

As the link I posted above said, lay people can only be
excommunicated for assassinating the Pope (!), or for procuring an
abortion - that means either arranging one for somebody, or having
one yourself. It is not an excommunicable sin to say publicly that
you support women's right to choose.

Bishops can and do refuse communion when they object to a stand that
someone has taken, and it's a step from total excommunication, but
not the full thing, as I understand.

[PeteC]

2. Higher Priorities

Doesn't the Vatican have more important things to worry about? Maybe they should take care of the problems within before looking outside. Who is the "top Vatican cardinal" and what's his history?

[caledesi]

4. Well does that mean that if you are NOT a politician and Catholic

and are pro-choice, you can receive communion? Doesn't make sense.

[koopie57]

7. my understanding

(and I did not learn this during my 6 years in sister school) is that the Catholics believe that the bread and wine are actually turned into the body and blood of Christ and that is why the host is considered so sacred. And there are many reasons one is not to receive the host. Some people get away with it, some choose not to attempt it and for some the priest is unaware of their transgression and gives them the host anyway. I suspect it might have to do with the amount in their giving envelopes in some cases.

That is also why in some churches a christian who is non catholic cannot receive the host. They believe that the bread and wine represent the body and blood only and do not actually turn.

[patriotvoice]

5. delete

On edit:
Responded to the wrong one

[dave29]

9. Organized Religion pisses me off so much

and why do they even bother to call it that, it's so obviously disorganized.

How much time could we save in our pursuit of happiness if we didn't snipe at each other over things no one has been able to figure out.

And another thing, people should stop issuing edicts. It just seems silly.

[koopie57]

12. I am extremely frustrated

by organized religion. I have said this at du before, but God asked so little of us. He asked us to love one another. No more, no less. Simply love. Every example in the bible was that of love, understanding, caring. That was it. But now, we have so many man-made rules that are alienating people, belittling them....killing them. These are not God's rules, they are those of man. I don't ever recall ever where God said to hate your neighbor, hate the democrat, hate the person of another color, race. I don't believe he ever said to hate in his name. He said to love, love in his name. It is so simple.

[dave29]

14. My favorite of God's rules

Thou shalt not kill.

seems pretty straightforward.

[jdj]

71. I always felt like Orwell missed the boat on religion

in 1984. He talked about the hopelessness of inspiring the proletariat to revolt, yet without the "pre-programming" of organized religion, the kinds of social controls talked about in the book would never have been tolerated. Religion is the first system of government most people are exposed to, at a time when the psyche is forming, and the effects are permanent; I think it pretty much takes repression to overcome them, they are always lurking back there in the dark somewhere, for me anyway.

[dave29]

84. Religion is

like so many things - a mixed bag. There is so much good and so much bad it has wrought on planet Earth. All I know is nobody has gotten it "right" yet. Being somewhat of a "Deist" (although I hate definitions), I believe strongly in God - but that we should not stand in judgment of anyone else for their beliefs...

We only know .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the Universe.

We don't know squat, we shouldn't act like we do.

[Spazito]

10. Bottom line is, if you go to confession and say....

Bless me father for I have sinned, it has been x # of days, weeks since I have been to confession and I did x, y and z, the priest says do x # of Hail Marys' and your sins are forgiven, you, then, can receive the "host" with a "pure" heart.

I used to be a very firm catholic in all it's trappings but I now have faith not religion, a big difference, imo. Organized religion is a hook to get money and sell a philosophy that is limited in it's inclusion and I refuse to buy into that.

[JNelson6563]

21. That's the thing of it

One is supposed to be as "pure" as possible before taking communion. I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school. It was recommended to go to confession before going to Mass.

I was however taught that a "sin" constituted having done something wrong. One can hold a differing view from the Church and not have sinned. I mean, Kerry hasn't had or performed an abortion, right?

I agree with those hwo think this is nonsense. This is the Church getting too active in politics again. You'd think by now they'd've learned.

Julie

[ngGale]

13. Good for Kerry and what about the vast...

right wing belief in the death penalty, war and terror. The Vatican was not, repeat NOT in favor of the war. Don't see them being denied communion. It's hypocritical at best.

[LibDemAlways]

16. This Communion non-story is only in the repuke-run media

to remind voters that Kerry is a Catholic and to appeal to whatever anti-Catholic prejudice might be lurking in the hearts of the "undecideds."

Personally I wish Kerry would strongly and unequivocally state that his personal beliefs are nobody's business, and the press should be focusing on issues that matter to the voters.

[Matilda]

20. And there was I thinking what a long way we've come since the days

of Jack Kennedy, when his religion was such an issue. If I was
middle-of-the-road American, I'd be much more worried about he
fundies. They're scary!

[Maeve]

24. Oh, we have come a long way--Kennedy had to prove he WOULDN'T take orders

From the bishops--Kerry is being pushed to prove he WILL. (It's a battle the bishops can't win, but they aren't smart enough to figure that out--yet.)

Idjits and bullies inhabit every human organization. And we'll always need the ones who are honest and brave enough to point that out.

[chelaque liberal]

51. "to appeal to whatever anti-Catholic prejudice "

I'm afraid that this won't just appeal to anti-Cathlic prejudice.

There are very serious Catholics who take whatever position they believe the church holds as absolute law, regardless of how rational it is. I broke my grandparents heart by marrying a "non-Catholic." Even though they loved me very much (I was truly cherished by them), they "couldn't" come to my wedding. The Catholic Church is very powerful, especially with elderly Irish or Polish or Italians.

[hippywife]

52. My Grandparents were stalwart Italian Catholics

who attended everyone of their grandchildrens weddings no matter where they were held. There are some Catholics that get it and some that don't...it's about loving each other and respecting one another's right to make choices even if you don't agree with them.

[4_Legs_Good]

81. Agreed! What are there reporters in all the pews...

...waiting to see if he dares take Communion or not?

This is getting rediculous (getting?). Please, let the guy have his religion and let's worry about the real issues.

That said, I can't wait to get Antonin Scalia denied Communion because he strongly supports the death penalty.

I'm Catholic and am really nervous about the direction the Church is taking.

david

[sniffa]

23. i heard he didn't swaLLow it though

is that another fLip fLop?

[Merlin]

30. LOL! n/t

.

[slackmaster]

25. Kudos to Kerry for having a pair

And for demonstrating that a rational, intelligent person can also be spiritual and vice-versa.

Church and state must never be allowed to pollute each other in this country. Let your religion be your personal moral compass if you so choose; as a leader you have a larger responsibility to the public.

[TahitiNut]

27. Why doesn't the Church take this stance on Capital Punishment?

It seems far more clear-cut. While a politician may take the principled pro-choice stance of opposing abortion for themselves and their family while supporting the rights of others to follow their conscience, a politician who has the power to commute a death penalty and doesn't seems far, far more personally culpable in violating the "Thou shalt not kill" precept.

Hypocrisy.

[alcuno]

32. This is not the Church's stance - to deny communion.

Right now you have a few renegade cardinals and priests saying that communion should be denied. However, the Church as a whole has not decided nor do I think they will. The American Bishops are discussing this, but aren't expected to make a decision, if any, until after the election.

[Merlin]

34. Not true. This comes from Vatican spokesman. Here's the news story.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=3&u=/nm/20040423/pl_nm/campaign_kerry_vatican_dc

(emphasis added)
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - In remarks that could influence the U.S. presidential race, a top Vatican cardinal said Friday that a Roman Catholic politician who unambiguously supports abortion rights should be denied Holy Communion at Mass.

Cardinal Francis Arinze spoke amid a debate over whether Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites) should be denied communion, which Catholics believe is the body of Christ, because he supports abortion rights.

At a news conference presenting a Vatican document restating standing rules about the celebration of Mass, Arinze was reminded of the Kerry case and asked if a priest should refuse communion to a politician who unambiguously supports a woman's right to choose abortion. "Yes," he answered. "If the person should not receive it, then it should not be given. Objectively, the answer is there."

<snip>

[alcuno]

35. I was aware that it was a Vatican Cardinal who said it.

But it appears to be his opinion. I want to see what the Pope says. Besiders, what does "unambiguously supports" mean?

[Merlin]

58. True, it's not "Official" -- BUT Arinze is probably the next Pope.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0%2C3604%2C1054976%2C00.html

The Guardian profile: Cardinal Francis Arinze

Despite the taboo within the Vatican about discussing papal succession, some cardinals have begun to say openly that the next heir to St Peter should be an African. If so, there is only one candidate

Rory Carroll
Friday October 3, 2003
The Guardian

...Francis Arinze is tipped by some to succeed John Paul II and become the first African in 1,500 years to sit on the throne of St Peter...

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, a confidant of John Paul and the Vatican's theological watchdog, came close when he said electing an African pope "would be a positive sign for the whole of Christendom".

John Allen, the author of a book about the next papal election, Conclave, said a recurring theme in their interviews with 45 cardinals was a desire for a pope from the developing world - "which could mean Arinze. To be frank, there are not many other Africans".

[4_Legs_Good]

82. Freaky...

I'm terribly frightened about who the next Pope will be (as a Catholic myself).

But this stuff can be way up in the air. A great book about Papal succession is "The Making of the Popes - 1978) by Andrew M. Greeley. It might be out of print now, though. It shows how wacky the elections can be - a lot like Democratic/Republican conventions in the old days. Things change a lot.

david

[Maeve]

85. And Fr Greeley would be one of the first to quote the warning

"He who goes into the conclave a pope, comes out a cardinal."

The folks predicting who the next pope will be have an almost perfect record--of being wrong.

[4_Legs_Good]

86. Heh heh heh

:)

[TexasProgresive]

68. That's the irony for many Catholics

The conundrum that many Catholic voters face is that they subscribe to Benardins "Seamless Garment" model of pro life. Bernardin proposed that all life is sacred as a gift from God and that it should be protected. This means that all anti life actions are wrong including abortion, nuclear war, war, capital punishment and actions which abuse the poor and increase their poverty.

I refused to vote in presidential elections for years because no candidate came close to viewing life as sacred. Then I realized that the repugnants were using abortion as a wedge issue. Those at the top do not really want to eliminate abortion because they would have to find another catalyst to set the religious right on fire. The fundies used to stay out of politics because it was too worldly. Anti-abortion brought them out of their prayer closets into the voting booth.

While I wish that abortion was not happening, I stand firmly by the rest of the Democrat party positions which is more in line with supporting families, workers, women well this list could go on forever.

The issue of abortion is not really classically conservative/liberal. It is really a social/cultural question. I heard an interview with Jessie Ventura who described himself as a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. This probable describes repugs like the log cabin bunch and others. Likewise there are those who are fiscal liberal and social conservatives - one doesn't mean the other - just as capitalism doesn't equal democracy.

[jdj]

70. Bush has proved republicans are anything but fiscal

conservatives. It was Clinton who balanced the budget and eliminated the deficit. Democrats are the true fiscal conservatives, and truly, as the 9/11 commission hearings proved, stronger on defense.

When the republicans say they are fiscally conservative, it means they favor corporate welfare for the so-called "military-industrial complex" at the expense of any and all social welfare programs, and it means they want the poor to pay the majority of taxes while the rich pay little or nothing.

Thanks to Bush 1 and 2 and Reagan, the only ideology republicans have left is religion.

[mmonk]

37. I was unaware of any edict

just a Cardinal spewing off I thought.

[hippywife]

38. For many decades now,

much of the American Catholic Church has not marched lockstep with Rome. Even when I was in Catholic elementary school, people did what they wanted with their lives regardless of what Rome had to say about it.

The Catholic Church is, in my view anyway, synonymous with the Pharisees and Sadducees of Christ's day, who he chastised more than once. All rules and little compassion to be found except for a few who do understand what Christ's message was about.

Communion should have been something totally symbolic to represent the fact that during the Last Supper, Christ was giving them yet another parable-like example: in order for them to live according to his teachings, they must internalize them, take them into themselves for sustenance in order to walk according to them. It was not intended as some superstitious, cannibalistic ritual, but as a reminder of what is needed to live life as a believer in Christ.

There are fundies in every religion that will misinterpret their chosen scripture to justify their horrible actions and mistreatment of people.

[jakefrep]

39. Good for Kerry!

The Vatican is apparently oblivious to the notion that by wagging their collective finger at pro-choice politicians, thay are playing squarely into the fears of the folks who are afraid of Catholic politicians taking their "marching orders" from the Vatican.

[BraveDave]

41. In the eyes of the church...

If one finds themself in a situation that objectively contravenes God's law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ.

I'm finding it difficult to support someone who can't follow the beliefs of his own faith.

[hippywife]

42. Faith and religion

are fully two different things. Religion is purely an invention of man and has nothing to do with what is between a man and his god.

[BraveDave]

43. Valid point.

My poor choice of words. It's just my opinion that someone that doesn't agree with all of the catholic beliefs should not call themself catholic. Pretty simple actually. Plenty of other christian religions out there.
:)

[alcuno]

44. I am a Catholic. Please tell me all the Catholic beliefs...............

As a Catholic, I would be absolutely AMAZED to find that in all other religions, there is 100% agreement on every issue, but there is likely agreement on BELIEFS. As a matter of fact, we don't "call" ourselves Catholic. The Church's position has always been that once you are baptized into the Catholic faith, that's it. You can go to whatever Church you want, but you are still a Catholic. It's not a matter of what you "call" yourself.

Furthermore, other than the basic tenants of our faith along with the sacraments, most Catholics think that some of this stuff is just Church politics. An example of Catholic beliefs would be the belief in the Virgin Birth; that Mary was born absent original sin. We agree on that stuff.

Is birth control a belief? I don't think so. I'm unaware of the Baptist POSITION on birth control, etc., but everyone is always in the business of the Catholics and telling us what Catholics think and believe. Leave us alone.

[KittyWampus]

45. How Do We Know What Kerry PERSONALLY BELIEVES

and practises regarding his Catholicism and standing in the Church?

His position as a politician who must uphold the law is very different than his position as a parishoner who must answer to his own PERSONAL Conscience and God.

[Gingersnapsback]

76. Bill Morrows said that he thinks Religion is a neurological disorder!

I agree! Drugs, Cigs, Alcohol are the same addiction to an artificial stimulus that cleanses the brain of pain.

[dawn]

55. Well, it's your opinion.

and that's all it is.

[BraveDave]

79. Actually...

that was straight from the Vatican's website. If Mr. Kerry supports abortion and his church of faith does not, he needs to find another church that does, rather that go against their wishes. That was my point.

[sjgman9]

46. I'm getting sick of this

I'm a pro-life Catholic. I like a lot of the Social Justice teachings of my church. The Democratic party with their helping of the poor appeals to me.

I really wish that the Vatican would just keep quiet in the election.
Granted, I hold my nose while voting for pro-choice candidates, I realize that there's nothing I can do to stop abortions. I can pray that those who want abortions just might consider adoption, but those that choose abortions have to face their own conscience and God.

I support abortions in case of rape and incest when the mother's life is in danger. I'm the same as President Bush.

I wish the Democratic Party had more pro-life politicos. I hate how this divides the country.


First off, the Boston archdiocese has to clean up the mess from the 1% of priests in its house that sexually abused boys.

I also wish that the Vatican would scold conservative catholics who dont practice social justice teachings.

Other than that, I think its all just a mess.

[cap]

73. the democratic party doesn't have more pro-life Catholics because

66% of Catholics are pro-choice. The pro-choice catholics reflect the composition of the Catholic laity.

[4_Legs_Good]

83. I'm a pro-choice Catholic, but also anti-abortion

I don't like abortions, and I think there is actually a *lot* that can be done to prevent them. The one thing that *cannot* be done, in my opinion, is make them illegal.

I think the best thing that can be done to stop abortions is to increase education and make contraception readily available to anyone who wants it. Next, fighting poverty is critical in decreasing abortions. Openness about sexuality is also very important.

I don't believe that the Chruch should be making public policy or creating laws. I also belive that the Church's stance that life begins at concption, while acceptable in its own right to "believers", is a fundamentalist view that most other religions and faiths (not to mention scientists) do NOT believe, and as such in no way should be forced on them.

I'm kinda wacked, though, because we make such a huge issue of abortion, and I simply don't beleve that God weeps for an extracted clump of cells with no nervous system which has been extracted in order to keep from destroying at least 2 lives as much as He weeps for the 34,000,000 cows killed every year in the USofA so we can have a steaming heap of flesh on our burgers. I find that I'm pro-life more and more, but that includes capital punishment, war, poverty, child abuse, labor conditions, animal rights, environmentalism, etc.

Sorry to blabber on...

david

[w4rma]

50. The headline reads like somthing found in the NYPost.

The AP is trying to make more out of this than it is, imho.

[Chicago Democrat]

53. I DISAVOW MY CATHOLICISM AND HEREBY DISOWN MY

CONFIRMATION.

[alcuno]

54. Can you do that?

[mbee]

57. Should the church refuse communion to any Catholic who approved

of the invasion of Iraq? Didn't the Pope disapprove of this so-called war?

[alcuno]

59. Exactly right.

The Church needs to be careful about linking issues and beliefs. There are a whole boatload of issues that could lead to the non-issuance of communion.

I believe that the Church is correct in standing up and saying to Catholics that abortion is a sin. But ultimately it's left up to the individual to decide.

[goforit]

60. Well, we'll at least see who are the true christians in the Catholic churc

Can there truely be evil all the way up the divine ladder?

Jesus would service a whore...yet the Vatican turns its back
to people with a different view point.

It certainly shows the Blaspheny they pontificate.

[UTUSN]

61. Well, Kick for Father CICCONE n/t

[gauguin57]

62. phooey on the Catholic Church

I'm proud to say I'm a lapsed Catholic. I will NEVER AGAIN be part of a church that won't allow women to be priests, bishops, monsignors and popes. The church worships the bejesus out of Mary and then won't let women be leaders in the church.

I will never be part of a church that won't allow clergy to marry (but who still try to tell everyone how to run their sex lives). A church that in the year 2004 refuses to take a socially responsible position on birth control. A church that denies women their privacy and freedom over their own bodies. A church that values rules and rituals over one's relationship with God.

And a church that would pull this kind of political crap. I don't know why John Kerry wants to continue to be a Catholic anyway ... because of all the above items and because a cardinal would say he shouldn't receive the Eucharist because of his political beliefs. The Catholic church is so full of bullsh*t I can't believe it hasn't imploded.

[Skittles]

63. hypocrites

absolute hypocrites

[NewYorkerfromMass]

65. I'm a lapsed Catholic too and Kerry can do whatever the hell he wants

The pontification is mortally based and is apt to be flawed. I view the whole thing as just a grand vehicle for a system of morals anyway.
Kerry would agree with my first statement I'm sure.

[dawn]

78. Another proud ex-Catholic here.

I refuse to call myself lapsed, as I left when I was 15. My parents forced me to be confirmed, even if I disagreed with the church's teachings about women. So I made a deal, I get "confirmed," then I drop out.

The Catholic church's teachings on peace always inspired me, and still do, but I could not stomach their teaching on women and their view that people in other religions would go to hell.

[SoCalDem]

69. Jeeeez.. I wish EVERYONE (Kerry included) would COOL IT

on the religion thing.. We are trying to elect a president, not an Imam, or priest, or minister...

I wish he would have the guts to stand up and say that his beliefs are PRIVATE....and that no ONE constituency will have an inside track through him to God..:grr:

[cap]

72. this whole issue is a Right Wing ploy

Only 4 bishops have spoken out against pro-choice politicians. Over 100 American bishops have remained silent about pro-choice politicians. In Europe, bishops have publicly stated that they will NOT deny pro-choice politicians Communion.

That priest in the Vatican is only one voice on the subject. There is a huge silence in the US on this issue. The US Conference on Catholic Bishops doesn't endorse the Christian Coalition.

[74dodgedart]

87. I guess it's my protestant roots but,

It seems weird to me a church would deny communion to anyone..