Police Clear Church-Owned Lot, Arrest About 2 Dozen

[UnrepentantLiberal]

Source: New York Times

Not long after the protesters cut the fence at the lot owned by Trinity Church just west of Duarte Square and flooded in, the police came in and cleared them out, arresting about two dozen people.

At least four journalists, including a reporter and a photographer from The Associated Press, a reporter from The Daily News and a photographer from DNAInfo, were led out in plastic handcuffs.

A few of the detentions were done roughly -- one man was thrown on the ground by the police and officers kneeled on his back. But most were more routine.

A Trinity Church spokesman said of the protesters at their lot, "We did not invite any of those people in."

Read more: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/?src=twt&twt=cityroom#police-clear-church-owned-lot-arrest-about-2-dozen

[grasswire]

1. pay attention, people!!!!!!!!

This is the moment. Liberty is at stake.

[Freddie Stubbs]

2. Whose liberty?

The protesters, or the church which own the land?

[PoliticAverse]

9. You have the right to cut someone's fence and occupy their private property ? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Yeah, people need to stop with this vandalism and damage of private property crap.

It's going to un-do the movement.

Occupy public spaces. Damage nothing. Don't give them a fucking excuse.

[snooper2]

39. I guess everything is coming full circle, that's exactly what teabaggers say

[ixion]

3. The institution of religion is part of the 1%

Don't forget: The Vatican is one of the wealthiest institutions on the planet.

[Wait Wut]

4. Ah....

...excellent excuse for cutting a fence and trespassing. Not illegal at all.

[redgiant]

8. Yup

OWS is jumping the shark.

[msongs]

5. the "Vatican" is a business - fleecing the flock of all it can get nt

[RKP5637]

6. And "the faithful" are the most easily manipulated, the RW figured that out long ago, while

the democrats were still scratching their heads.

[PETRUS]

7. One of the "four networks of social power."

Power is based in ideological (religious), economic, military and political networks.

[Yo_Mama]

13. Trinity Church is Episcopal

I don't know what you think the Vatican has to do with all this. Perhaps you just aren't thinking?

Trinity had been somewhat supportive of the OWS protesters, so this is the repayment they get?

[sarcasmo]

38. +1

[PoliticAverse]

10. "two protesters dressed in black, wearing black bandannas over the lower part of their faces...

used bolt cutters to snip through the chain-link"

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/#protesters-cut-lock-on-lot-owned-by-church-flood-in

[formercia]

19. Another provocation ,methinks.

I wish I could conjure up a pair of Bolt Cutters out of thin air whenever I needed them.......

[UnrepentantLiberal]

With bolt cutters? Why would an OWS protester walk around

with bolt cutters? If that doesn't sound like an NYPD dirty trick, nothing does.

[Yo_Mama]

24. No, it's not the police

OWS, which has been getting support from Trinity, was talking to Trinity about getting permission to use that area. They didn't, and a few extremists jumped the gun, and now they definitely never will.

Those people in black have shown up around the country at various protests and have often initiated violence, set fires, broken windows, chanted about burning banks, etc. Not everybody out there has the same goals and the same values.

But note that most of OWS didn't go in that private area - the police are cited as only having arrested about 24 trespassers, and at least four of those were journalists! So it was the work of a minority, and most of the hundreds of OWS at Duarte Square didn't have anything to do with it.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

30. So let's get this strait. Some anarchists followed the march

from Zuccotti Park to Trinity Church. When they saw a fence that could be opened one of them jumped on the subway, exited the subway, ran up to his apartment, grabbed some bolt cutters (that he keeps handy for just this situation), ran back to the subway, exited near Trinity Church, sidled up to the fence and cut the chain. Makes perfect sense.

[Marrah_G]

40. I think what they are saying is that after talks ended up with the church denying access...

... someone got some bolt cutters and took matters into their own hands. We have no idea of a timeline. There are extremists in every group, even our own. I remember marching in DC and having organizers saying to let the anarchists get far ahead of the march so they wouldn't be associated with the march if they did any damage.

[AndyTiedye]

32. And Who Knows Who "Those People in Black" Really Are?

They certainly could be provocateurs working to discredit and divide OWS.

[mwrguy]

35. NYPD or hired thugs

Same thing, really.

[virgogal]

28. The NYPD is to blame for a protestor carrying

bolt cutters?

Maybe it's me but I don't get it. Could you clarify this for me please?

[UnrepentantLiberal]

29. What protester is going to walk around Manhattan

with bolt cutters waiting for an opportunity to open up a fence?

Not easy to hide bolt cutters and when the police saw someone walking around with them (they're always watching for protesters with weapons) they would be immediately arrested.

[virgogal]

33. Thanks.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

20. dupe

[jtuck004]

11. "We did not invite any of those people in."

LOL. "Your" God forbid anyone gets sanctuary or a refuge at a church.

I can only guess what else the church may have been doing to want to safeguard their resources. Maybe OWS interrupted the weekly sign-making and how-to-browbeat-vulnerable-women classes for the right-to-lifers? Quilting?

Yes, it's private property. For which a tax exemption is granted in recognition of the protected nature of their activities.

One would think they could understand the need for protection of people over property. I know it's in their policy manual.

[Yo_Mama]

15. Link to Trinity Church statement on Duarte Square

http://www.trinitywallstreet.org/news/articles/statement-on-duarte-square

Duarte Square, at the intersection of Canal Street and Sixth Avenue and a block from the Holland Tunnel, is comprised of both public and private land. Duarte Park, on the eastern edge, is City-owned public land.

The larger enclosed portion of the square is private space owned by Trinity Wall Street and currently licensed for use to the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council for a temporary art installation known as “Lent Space” that is closed for the season. Neither Trinity Wall Street nor the LMCC has given permission for members of Occupy Wall Street to enter the private area.

Trinity respects the rights of citizens to protest peacefully and supports the vigorous engagement of the concerns of the protesters. Trinity continues to provide gathering and meeting spaces for Occupy Wall Street in its neighborhood center and facilities in and around Wall Street.

[Wait Wut]

17. Good Grief.

OWS is blowing it. I was raised Episcopalean and they're some of the most Liberal Christians I've ever known.

Awesome. :eyes: Nothing like building up public empathy by abusing your supporters.

[Yo_Mama]

21. It's unfair to blame all of OWS

Only two cut the fence.

But it is illegal and anything but "just". There are always extremists in any movement and it's important to distinguish between the entire movement and the actions of a few.

[Wait Wut]

23. I'm not "blaming" all of them.

But, the actions of those few will affect the entire movement. Especially when comments like I see here are expressed in a public forum. There should be an outcry of disgust at this one group. Instead, I see comments blaming the church. "Peaceful", imo, would include refraining from destruction of private property and avoidance of breaking laws. Doing these two simple things would encourage more support from the general public. Actions like this will have the opposite effect.

[Yo_Mama]

26. A fair point, but

I'm just pointing out that it is unjust to blame everybody when only a very few were involved.

Yeah, stuff like this isn't helpful and should be publicly criticized.

I also agree with your point regarding some of the comments. A few are rather shocking.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Sounds like more than a few then went through the cut fence

If they had not and turned the vandals over to the police, as has been done at other encampments, that would have been a credit to the movement

[sweetapogee]

37. fyi

tax exempt status only on property used for religious purposes

[wandago]

12. The church should have offered them sanctuary.

"Blessed are the poor" and all that.

[tawadi]

16. +1

[mwrguy]

36. The church is a business, same as any other

They just sell a different product.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Yo_Mama]

22. How - how - noble of you

So now we're into burning churches?

This IS a fast race to the lowest common denominator, and probably grossly misrepresents the sentiments of most of the OWS.

If you are going to commit criminal acts - and destruction and occupation of private property is criminal - then you are going to get arrested, and worse yet, the bulk of the public is going to think you are, at best, jerks. And, you know, criminal. Not the type of people they wish to support.

[Populist_Prole]

25. This is church property, get the hell out!!!

How 'bout we pass the plate around :sarcasm:

[grasswire]

27. Trinity Church got its land from the British crown...

....and it was stolen from the descendants of the woman who owned the property in the 1600s. Annetje Jans inherited the property from her husband, and the land was subsequently granted to the church by TPTB -- stolen from descendants. (I'm a direct descendant, btw. That land belongs to me and others, rightfully.)

[ccavagnolo]

31. We did not invite any of those people in

I thought the church turned their back on no one?

I see the fence as a gift from the tax payers, a gift some certainly missed out on receiving. the fence is all of ours, cut as you will.