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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 02:33 AM
Original message
Falling orbiter will miss U.S. in plunge today - Canada and Central America also in the clear
Source: azcentral

snip

NASA officials Thursday still were unsure exactly when the 6.5-ton satellite would begin its fiery plunge or exactly where an estimated 26 surviving satellite parts would strike Earth's surface.

Sometime this afternoon EDT, the $750 million satellite is expected to meet its demise. But the vagaries of an uncontrolled atmospheric re-entry made it impossible for Air Force space-surveillance trackers to definitively say where debris might fall.

Here's what we do know: About 530 million people in North America are in the clear.

NASA officials said the spacecraft would not be passing over the United States, Canada or Central America this afternoon.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/23/20110923falling-satellite-miss-us-plunge-today.html#ixzz1Yl4ro2PW

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/23/20110923falling-satellite-miss-us-plunge-today.html



Good news for some, not so good for others. I wonder whether it coming down in 26 pieces is a problem?
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. It will be more than 26 pieces once it hits the atmosphere.
It's going to be raining junk somewhere.
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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. No, 26 pieces are all that are expected to survive reentry intact.
They are the most robust 26 pieces on the satellite and the most likely to not *completely* disintegrate on reentry.

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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for the info....I've been wondering if they had any idea
where it might hit yet. Hoping it all lands in the middle of nowhere...
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Can't imagine what the insurance claim would be
if any bits hit populated areas elsewhere. Hopefully they will all fall in the sea.
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Lucinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. As far as I can tell that's what has happened. Unless I missed something.
:)
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. I am not buying the idea they don't know...
area where the impact could occur...They were able to predict the exact area where an meteorite impacted several years ago days before it did.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. +1, n/t
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Meteors are different from satellites
Edited on Fri Sep-23-11 07:22 AM by krispos42
Meteors generally move much faster than satellites because they are in orbit around the Sun, not the Earth.

Also, they hit us at much higher angles than a decaying satellite, so they pretty much just punch through the atmosphere in a blaze of glory. Remember, our atmosphere is effectively perhaps 150km thick, and these things are moving fast relative to us. Earth orbits the Sun at 30 km/s so impact speeds of 40 to 50 km/s are common. That's maybe 3-4 seconds to travel through the atmosphere.

Well, accounting for deceleration by air friction, probably 15-20 seconds.

But the point is that there's virtually no deflection from the plotted trajectory. It hits, burns through in a fireball, then is slowed enough to drop through the atmosphere... assuming it is not entirely consumed in the atmosphere.



In contrast, a satellite is sort of skipping across the atmosphere like a rock across a pond. At some point it will stop skipping and start sinking... but the exact point is unknown.

I'm sure that WHEN it starts sinking, they'll be able to make a pretty good guess at the impact zone.
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Yes, I can see what you are talking about but...
...how could they know it won't hit North America but still have no idea where it will hit? Obviously they do have a general idea where the pieces could come down or they would not say what they did, correct?

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. They can make a confident estimate of what hemisphere....
but I doubt they can get closer than that.

It depends on how fast it breaks up, weather patterns, air temperatures, cross-section/orientation of the pieces as they break up....
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks for the info! nt.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 06:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. And it turns out I was wrong...
as they didn't seem to really get it nailed down even that much.

The phrase "chaotic event" seems tailor-made for this... too many variables to make an accurate prediction.
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. LOL! In general you were correct...
Have they figured out where it landed? The last thing I saw they still were not sure where it came down...That leads me to believe it must have hit in the ocean or in the middle of no where because it would have been reported by then. Who knows...My thinking to begin with was WRONG! LOL!

Let me know if you have heard anything, please. Thanks!!!
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. Well, they know that to hit North America, it would have to start falling at a certain point.
It somewhat analogous to watching out for deer by the side of the interstate. If you see a deer running towards the highway, you know that there's a zone in front of your car where if the deer is outside that zone, it can't run fast enough to get in front of you, and will simply run behind your car instead.


Having said that, they probably won't know exactly where this thing hits until they finally get the drop to show up on radar.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. That is a single piece object coming in at high speed

Meteors come in at much higher speed on a trajectory from far out in space.

This is a low earth orbit object made of pieces that are going to break up, and is tumbling along the upper atmosphere.

Imagine throwing a rock into a swimming pool at high speed from the top of a ladder. Yes, you know where on the bottom of the pool it will end up.

Now imagine standing next to the pool and skipping a rock across the surface. No, you don't know where on the bottom of the pool it will end up.
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Owlet Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
5. Gonna land in the Middle East
Betcha.
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sandyj999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
7. The Good News Is.........................
If it hits your house your homeowners insurance may cover it. :sarcasm:
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Thor_MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. If it hits your house, NASA is responsible for the damage
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Only if the rethugs fund NASA. nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. Who, What, Why: Can you dodge a falling satellite?
Fragments from a satellite falling to Earth are expected to land on Friday. So is it possible to take evasive action?

A six-tonne satellite is expected to crash land in the next 24 hours, scattering debris over an area of the planet's surface up to 500km (310 miles) wide.

Nasa, which owns the Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite (UARS), estimates it will break into about 26 parts, the heaviest weighing about 158kg, which is equivalent to a very large person.

The debris will include three batteries, four wheel rims and four fuel tanks, and their speed when they hit the ground or the ocean will vary.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15023115

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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. You could hang out in the lobby of a tall building

But you'd run a higher risk of getting hit by a car crossing the street to get there.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. I was really hoping it would fall in my back yard
Or at least on my decrepit old car.

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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. I wonder.
Any chance you could get Hannity and Limbaugh in the car?
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Not since the satellite is going to miss it
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. If it falls outside the US you're probably allowed to keep it as a souvenir.
Or sell it on Ebay.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
16. I wore my hardhat on my morning walk anyway.
Got laughs from people I saw.
;-)
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charlie and algernon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. Piedmont, Arizona breathes a sigh of relief
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brooklynite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. UPDATE - US is -NOT- in the clear (but "low probability")
Update #10
Fri, 23 Sep 2011 10:45:08 AM EDT

As of 10:30 a.m. EDT on Sept. 23, 2011, the orbit of UARS was 100 miles by 105 miles (160 km by 170 km). Re-entry is expected late Friday, Sept. 23, or early Saturday, Sept. 24, Eastern Daylight Time. Solar activity is no longer the major factor in the satellite’s rate of descent. The satellite’s orientation or configuration apparently has changed, and that is now slowing its descent. There is a low probability any debris that survives re-entry will land in the United States, but the possibility cannot be discounted because of this changing rate of descent. It is still too early to predict the time and location of re-entry with any certainty, but predictions will become more refined in the next 12 to 18 hours.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html


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Hoosier Daddy Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. I heard 1 in 3,200
Psst! Dick Cheney is over there!
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. We're all going to die!
Eventually
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. I just hope there isn't a toilet seat
That'd be a bad way to go
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Ter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
26. You have a 10,000x better chance of winning the lottery
Then it coming anywhere within a mile radius of you. I'm not worried in the least.
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Devil_Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. yet people still win the lotto.... I hope it takes out my car. (With no one in it of course)NT
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my2sense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
29. Who gave permission for ANY gov't to
launch shit into the atmosphere that will come back and rain down all types of rubbish on the residents of this planet? Can you imagine the fallout if some other country launched a satellite and the fallout landed in the U.S. There would be a misunderstanding......
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I was told today of a German satellite that is expected to plunge to Earth in
Nov. It is causing some concern because it has a huge heavy glass lens which will not be breaking up on re-entry.

There is 20,000 pices of space junk above Earth put up by different countries, all of which will eventually rain down.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Sigh..... n/t
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-23-11 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. most likely it will crash into water.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Nasa's UARS satellite plunges over Pacific
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vets74 Donating Member (714 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
36. Compare/Contrast Skylab Re-Entry (79-tons) with UARS (6-tons)
Skylab Information Center was set up in Washington by NASA in response to the "Chicken Little" piece that WaPo syndicated.

Irresponsibility was the keystone of early NASA plans to ignore the Skylab re-entry. Then it turned out that spinning the satellite made it possible to accelerate the final burn, putting the 79-tons of metal and a nuclear oven down away from cities.

NASA had a political appointee who countermanded the engineers and even screwed up that. But the engineering was sound. Pols can screw up anything.

Here's the "Chicken Little" editorial. Not bad for an example of how to move a Federal agency ASAP :::

"Coming Home" by Chicken Little from the WaPo syndicate, 1979

Skylab is coming home to earth - all 79 tons of it - sometime around July 13. As has been reported steadily over the past six months, when it does come down it will spray debris along a track 200 miles wide and up to 4,000 miles long, somewhere between 50 degrees North and 50 degrees South - a belt that excludes the north of Canada, most of the Soviet Union, and, oddly, the British Isles. Fully 90 percent of the world's population will be threatened by Skylab's descent, and that descent isn't far away. It is time, now, to decide what kind of warning we will give to people who will be in jeopardy during its final hours.

Much of Skylab's debris can be expected to burn up on reentry, and there is a reasonable chance that the surviving pieces will fall into the broad reaches of the world's Ocean. Still, a substantial possibility remains that some of the pieces of Skylab will fall on populated land.

This is the first satellite reentry to drop pieces that could cause a heavy loss of life. Following basic aerodynamic data, solid forged-metal remnants weighing above 1,000 kilograms can be expected to hit at more than the speed of sound. A metal piece the size of Chicken Little's acorn would have about the effect of a construction rivet dropped from the top of the World Trade Center. Those larger chunks could also create sonic booms. Anyone who has questioned the Concorde flights can sympathize with the people caught in such a cacophony.

Furthermore, one of the large objects, traveling at such speed, might collide with an immovable object - like a building foundation - and generate terrific heat and an explosion. The devastation would cover a wider area than just the point of impact. The larger parts of Skylab are, in effect, capable of producing damage as great as non-nuclear weapons.

NASA has estimated, based on mathematical models and experience with descending communications satellites, that Skylab will break up into not more than 500 pieces of significant size - that is, weighing a pound or more. This may be so. The data are incomplete. But pieces weighing under a pound can also be lethal. Competent analysts guess that there will be upwards of 5,000 such pieces of debris, and possibly as many as 30,000 total items at earth impact.

NASA has said that there is only one chance in four that Skylab will come down over land, since three-quarters of its orbital path is over the ocean. This sounds reassuring, but what about that fourth chance - for example, a "footprint" of descending debris crossing through Chicago and Charleston, or Vienna and Tehran, or striking New Delhi or Peking? Based on the official 500-piece estimate, NASA has projected that the odds of hitting at least one person are 1 in 150. All things considered, that is not reassuring.

In the face of this inexorable oncoming event, there isn't much left to be done. All of NASA's heroic efforts in 1977 and 1978 to maintain Skylab aloft in its orbit - until the Space Shuttle could be brought along - are now of no avail. The shuttle's first engine blew itself to bits in April, during the first effort to get in a 500-second "firing" test.

But will it be possible this month to give advance warnings in areas where Skylab could fall, and to give those warnings in ample time - for example 36 hours - for orderly cautionary measures to be taken.

Unfortunately, at present, NASA's official plan is to relay only timing and orbital path data, as projected with successively increasing accuracy by NORAD's Space Defense Center in Colorado Springs. These figures will be delivered within the United States to the Federal Preparedness Agency, FAA and the news media. Foreign governments and other institutions will depend on a second relay by our Department of State.

This focus carries two problems. First, the technical issue of projecting exactly where Skylab hits should be less important than the goal of minimizing the chances of killing someone. By releasing information is such a way as to emphasize the final impact projection -- effectively a two-hour warning - the opportunity for everyone to get in a thorough response would be cut, in comparison with issuing full warning schedules beginning at the 36-hour mark.

Also, the two-hour warning has provoked professional psychiatric objections that such an announcement might trigger an urban panic - certainly a result that would overshadow the statistical danger from Skylab.

The second problem is with the raw data itself. Skylab's descent will be accompanied by a slowing down, as the space station hurtles into the atmosphere. Its velocity will be reduced from 17,650 mph to less than 1,500 mph. As a result, the pieces will not be able to maintain their track along the normal orbital path; they will fall off far to the west. Few, if any, of the receiving organizations being served by NASA and State have the computational programs on hand to convert the orbital path figures to actual risk patterns. Considering errors, the area at risk is 500 miles wide.

To reach people effectively, a broader warning system must be put into operation. At the 36-hour point, timings for the beginning of reentry (the start of Skylab's slowdown) can be narrowed to a 12-hour period. The satellite's position and direction can be plotted continuously for this whole period of risk. Then, mathematical functions can be included, together with adjustments for engineering uncertainties.

The overall result from the 36-hour mark would be risk pattern schedules for everyone who might be hit. If that 4,000-mile long "footprint" could fall on a country, or a city, its inhabitants would be told - to within an hour, at most - when any lethal debris could be expected to fall. For the case where the satellite missed - by falling earlier or later on, further down the risk patter - than the worst will have been for someone to have stayed indoors unnecessarily.

--------
NASA had concealed to this point that they could "steer" the satellite re-entry path by spinning it. Spinning greatly slowed Skylab. If done competently, this would have been the optimal engineering solution, allowing a mid-ocean splashdown. Non-technical managers got their fingers into that process, too. Nobody got killed.
--------

On the other hand, this is summer for most of the people under Skylab's orbit - we are outdoors a lot and more than usually vulnerable. Perhaps that warning to those in the threat zone to stay indoors, if they judge the odds harsh enough, would save a life. Surely, foreign airlines warrant this special attention. There's not much we can do about people's property.


That piece identified a key moral responsibility:

"It is time, now, to decide what kind of warning we will give to people who will be in jeopardy during its final hours."

Plus, when we learned that spinning a satellite enables useful steering for picking a re-entry orbital cycle, it should also be NASA's responsibility to do what they can to keep from hitting a city.

Looks to be that both were forgotten.

Apparently NASA got lucky again with UARS. They still didn't quite get the right answer for the information choices. Also, the 2005 "orbital lowering" maneuver apparently ignored the need to save up some fuel so they could spin the satellite at the end to guide re-entry to avoid cities.

1979. 2005. 2011. The lessons learned in 1979 seem to have been forgotten.

So what is NASA doing now ? What happens with other large satellites and risky re-entries ?

I have no idea. Seems like there is no policy in place. No engineering solution for SOP.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-24-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Good post.
1979 was a year when journalists still remembered who they worked for. They weren't afraid to take on NASA. Now? Have there been any critical articles about this recently?
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