Praying in Paris streets outlawed

[Bosonic]

Source: Telegraph

Praying in the streets of Paris is against the law starting Friday, after the interior minister warned that police will use force if Muslims, and those of any other faith, disobey the new rule to keep the French capital's public spaces secular.

Claude Guéant said that ban could later be extended to the rest of France, in particular to the Mediterranean cities of Nice and Marseilles, where "the problem persists".

He promised the new legislation would be followed to the letter as it "hurts the sensitivities of many of our fellow citizens".

"My vigilance will be unflinching for the law to be applied. Praying in the street is not dignified for religious practice and violates the principles of secularism, the minister told Le Figaro newspaper.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8766169/Praying-in-Paris-streets-outlawed.html

---

A pictorial example:

[Cool Logic]

1. Well, they do not have 1st Amendment rights in France.

[CTyankee]

3. I had an argument in Paris with my friend Jacques about head scarves.

this seems to be the French argument: the "people" have a right to self determination, which means they, as a people or a society, can decide what they believe. We are much less "collective" in our definition of "rights" so we believe that individuals "should" prevail over "collective" rights when it comes to such things as how to dress or pray.

I went back and read "The Rights of Man" which preceded the French Revolution and found it a bit ambiguous on the subject. But obviously, the subject has been refined over the years and this is what the French now believe.

THAT is the problem to which you refer...

[jberryhill]

6. What do they do in that place in France where the women don't wear pants?

[CTyankee]

31. Hey, don't ask me! I'm just reporting what my buddy Jacques said!

I think we've seen a lot in their schizoid response to DKS...

[yardwork]

12. The problem is that France has had such an influx of Muslim immigrants the natives are freaked out.

This is the price that France pays for hundreds of years of imperialism. We should pay attention.

[CTyankee]

32. Exactly! I said to Jacques: "This is the price you pay for going into the Magreb in the first place.

He had to agree...

[rfranklin]

23. That would not be tolerated in New York City...

They are blocking traffic and would get their butts kicked toot sweet in Manhattan!

[CTyankee]

33. So I said to jacques! I said they'd get the ACLU on their butts so fast

their heads would swim. My language was probably a bit too harsh, but too bad.

[smirkymonkey]

56. Actually, they'd get flattened without a second thought. So would

anyone in the way of a NYC driver. They don't stop for anything.

[Cool Logic]

43. The Atlantic Ocean insulated the US from the 18th Century collectivism...

that evolved in Europe, and France in particular. While they were building a Guillotine Revolution, the US was building an Industrial Revolution.

Although they are sympathetic to the French Revolution in general, most historians agree that the excesses of violence and mass executions represented an abandonment of reason. Regrettably, the abandonment of reason often facilitates the abandonment of individual rights, i.e., human rights.

[Lance_Boyle]

54. France's secularism is an embrace of reason.

Your post comes across as the lament of a pride-wounded god-botherer.

Go Secular France!

[Cool Logic]

64. The US is a secularist state; however...

the US recognizes the rights of its citizens to decide matters of religion in accordance with their individual values and beliefs.

BTW: I am not a believer; however, I am not hostile to the religious rights of my fellow citizens.

[Spider Jerusalem]

96. That's basically the difference between the Continental and the Anglo-Saxon idea of rights

the American conception derives from the English tradition of common law and individual rights that are in the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights of 1689, etc. See also John Locke and Thomas Hobbes. It's basically a difference in outlook rooted in differences in culture.

[dipsydoodle]

11. I assume that's a joke

given your constitution has neither meaning nor merit outside of the USA.

[Hosnon]

18. I disagree that the U.S. Constitution has no meaning outside the U.S.

No legal force, yes.

[alp227]

27. Check out article 4 of the french declaration of the rights of man and citizen

"La liberté consiste à pouvoir faire tout ce qui ne nuit pas à autrui : ainsi, l'exercice des droits naturels de chaque homme n'a de bornes que celles qui assurent aux autres membres de la société la jouissance de ces mêmes droits. Ces bornes ne peuvent être déterminées que par la loi." ("Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law.") In this case prayer doesn't hurt anyone else (the praying individual's thoughts notwithstanding), and I'm not a french lawyer, but I predict that if the courts review this properly over there then they'd toss this.

[CTyankee]

34. Please see my comments above with my friend Jacques in Paris in April.

I quote the Rights of Man and he said "Le Droit du l'homme has nothing to do with it!" I begged to disagree but he was adamant...

[quakerboy]

94. Im not sure

I can see arguments both ways based on that.

Does blocking a street or walk constitute potential injury to others? Would anyone doing some other activity be allowed to just plop down a mat and block a public right of way?

[alp227]

100. interesting perspective. banning prayer sounds SO MUCH like thoughtcrime, IMO

BUT...I support banning ANY obstructive activity, NO RELIGIOUS EXEMPTIONS. I hope I made my view more clear. If you watch san francisco giants games think about how pitcher Brian Wilson points up to the sky after winning games. And Wilson is a born-again Christian. NO truly democratic free speech society would make that kind of activity illegal, as the fundies keep whining and panicking about.

[quakerboy]

101. I am mostly with you

Its kinda in how the law was written, I guess. The article talks about banning prayer, but i did not see where it stated the specific mechanism of this, as far as I can tell. Is it a ban against blocking streets, or a ban against the act of praying? How about the Christians who aspire to be constantly praying, how would you even know? How about some dude who decides to do some yoga on the street?

I don't know how I feel about it. Where does freedom vs public good take this one. Its right there with the burqua ban, where I can see arguments for both sides of it.

[MADem]

106. Well, they aren't banning prayer--they're banning assembling in large groups in public places

for prayer. They have the attitude that everything has its place, and some things shouldn't be done in public. You want to pray? Go to a house of prayer!

[Cool Logic]

44. Are you suggesting that People living outside of the US have no rights...?

[dipsydoodle]

50. Whilst outside of the US

US citizens become subject to the rules and laws of whichever country they are in.

Ignorance of such laws cannot be used as a defence.

[Cool Logic]

51. Indeed, they do. However, just because a particular country does not recognize individual rights...

does not mean they do not exist.

For individuals "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."

[w0nderer]

55. since when does decl of indep count outside the US?

does it apply to atheists since they don't have a creator?

it's a pretty piece of prose on a nice historic piece of paper
that had a significance in forming the nations as we know them

[Cool Logic]

66. The ideas embodied in the DOI are products of the Age of Enlightenment...

The apply to every individual, including atheists, who were "created" by Nature.

[Hosnon]

68. This argument is quickly going to head into Philosophy of Law territory.

While I agree that the principles of the DOI should apply to all humans, it has no force of law (even in the U.S.). And even if it did, there's very little recourse if a government and its people knowingly and willingly abide by less than those ideals.

[Cool Logic]

74. That is true; however, my point is that the lack of *recognized* rights...

does not = the lack of rights.

The source of an individual's rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the law of identity.

[Hosnon]

76. I'm not touching "the source" of such rights with a ten foot pole.

Except to say that for practical purposes, the source of U.S. rights is the Constitution, as ratified by the states.

[No Elephants]

81. Yes, but your only support for that argument is the D of I, something that was never even

law in the U.S.

The fact that Jefferson wrote down something doesn't make it so. Jefferson himself couldn't possibly have believed it.

[No Elephants]

80. Bear in mnd, those words were written by a slaveowner and raper.

A man who owned his own children.

[tabasco]

30. The First Amendment doesn't give you the right to block the street

here in the good ol' USA.

[Cool Logic]

42. That is true; however, a well positioned soap box does not block the street.

[popsicle ricky]

35. How would the 1st amendment apply here?

Government shall make no law respecting a religion.

[backtomn]

36. A number of things to add here...........

It is "Congress shall make no law.....", meaning the Federal government. If it is not in the state constitution, a city can make laws respecting the practice of religion. In fact, 7 of the original 13 states had an established religions.....the last changing its constitution 40 years after the U.S. Constitution was signed.

There will always be competing rights in our society. There is praying in the streets in the U.S., but generally it requires a permit. It is unlikely that someone would be given a standing permit for every day. Churches have to follow the laws that everyone else do.....fire codes, criminal codes, etc.......they have to pay their bills, can't block the streets with parked cars, etc. All of this is still consistent with the First Amendment.

[kelly1mm]

41. The 1st Amendment has been incorporated by way of the 14th

Amendment to apply to the states. So,no, states and local government cannot make laws respecting the practice of religion.

[Hosnon]

67. +1. nt.

[No Elephants]

82. The 14th amendment changed that. Or, so says the SCOTUS.

[Cool Logic]

45. Actually, what it says is that "Congress shall make no law..."

...prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

[CTyankee]

60. But we also have established law around "time, place and manner" as they

apply to 1st Amendment rights, i.e. no sound trucks blaring in a hospital zone...

[Cool Logic]

70. I have no quarrel with common sense...

However, I am opposed to anti-religious bigotry.

[Hosnon]

65. "Congress" has been interpreted to mean the federal government.

And the 1st applies to the states pursuant to the 14th.

So the general term "government" is appropriate.

[Cool Logic]

69. Nevertheless, the 1st Amendment has not been re-written. It says what it says.

The 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause simply means that all laws of the US shall be applied equally to all of its citizens.

In fact, several states had state religions when the US Constitution was adopted.

[Hosnon]

71. It says what it says but the SCOTUS has interpreted it.

The 1st via the 14th prohibits state religions.

[Cool Logic]

73. With Plessy v. Ferguson, the SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality

of state laws requiring racial segregation in private businesses under the doctrine of "separate but equal".

[Hosnon]

75. The SCOTUS isn't infallible, if that's your point.

"We are not final because we are infallible, we are infallible because we are final." - J. Jackson

Plessy was ultimately discarded. Incorporation of the 1st Amendment is about as settled law as it comes.

[No Elephants]

84. SCOTUS says the 14th made certain rights in the bill of rights as applicable

to state (and local) governments as they are to the federal government. So, what states had before the 14th amendment is not necessarily relevant now.

[No Elephants]

83. You left out some critical words.

[uppityperson]

2. I wonder what will happen with all those (good friday?) Catholic parades around easter.

[Confusious]

4. well, technically, that's not praying

Unless you consider all parades praying?

[uppityperson]

20. Easter processional, led by a priest, with people walking behind with palm leaves, etc?

Chanting in Latin as they walk along. Is having a church service, a mass, while walking along "praying"?

Perhaps "Parade" is the wrong term. It is more of a processional, led by priests, someone waving the incense thingie, chanting in Latin.

[Confusious]

87. Yea, That would be it. nt

[LARED]

5. The "principles of secularism"

I wonder when the beat downs of Nuns praying the rosary will start.

[izquierdista]

7. Closets are for praying, not for gays

The Bible tells us so.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:6

[No Elephants]

85. It may not tell Muslims the same thing that it tells "us," though. Or Buddhists. Or...well, you

get my drift.

[MisterP]

8. how Graham Greene of Sarko...

[Metta]

9. This is asking for trouble. And will polarize the populace.

Short sighted, it seems.

[Bragi]

10. I could get behind that

Why should people be forced to observe others visibly demonstrating a particular set of supernatural presumptions in open, public spaces? They have private places where they can worship whatever they want however they want. I'd prefer not to have to watch it. For me, they're like a bad TV show. I should be able to turn it off.

[dixiegrrrrl]

15. Does that include the public oaths which include the word "god"

or public pledge of Allegiance?

( does the pledge of allegiance still use the god word these days??)

[progressoid]

16. Yeah that would be great too.

[fascisthunter]

17. great point

[Bragi]

52. Feh. I'm indifferent to that. It isn't "praying". /nt

[LanternWaste]

57. I admit that our lives are much easier and much more convenient

I admit that our lives are much easier and much more convenient when we are not subjected reading, hearing, or seeing the ideas, the beliefs, and the philosophies of those who don't hold the same mores are we may hold...

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

58. Why should I have to listen to Republican speeches? I hate what they're saying!

Have the police round them up and... Oh wait, that's advocating Fascism.

I would agree with this law if it said nothing about religion. Clogging up traffic is a legitimate complaint. However, nobody is ever "forced" to watch a religion demonstration, unless if you have a vice holding your eyelids open, or something like that.

[Wait Wut]

13. I can't make up my mind on this.

On one hand, a herd of faithful like above, is pretty distracting and a bit disturbing for someone not of their faith. On the other hand, would "Jesus Christ, get the fuck out of the way" be considered praying? If so, I'd have a problem.

One person saying a silent prayer isn't going to bother me. Organized shows of faith will. Is that what this is about or are the French just being douchey and intolerant? Also, from what I know about the Muslim faith (which is minimal) don't they pretty much have to stop what they're doing and drop to their knees? Is this a sneaky way for the French to chase them out? Are they offering any options?

I think I'm leaning towards our own Freedom of Speech, here. As much as I think any public show of faith is inappropriate, as long as it isn't impeding traffic (pedestrian or otherwise), I think it's infringing on a person's right to worship.

But, yeah...I live in America where this would cause a huge uproar, unless it was specifically aimed at Muslims. Then it would be okay. :eyes:

[RyanPsych]

28. from the article- it would appear that these prayers block streets and sidewalks

which is not only annoying but can cause some traffic backups. To me it just seems like a public safety/courtesy issue.

[Wait Wut]

29. Thanks.

Links crash my computer so I missed that part.

In that case, yeah...good idea. But, what about in a park or other area of that type?

[sarcasmo]

14. A planet with no religion would be my perfect place.

[saras]

19. I wonder if they'd know I was praying?

http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/turkey_curse.html

[TexasProgresive]

21. Time to bring back the guillotine.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!Then lets see them were scarves!

[uppityperson]

22. Procession de la Sanch, during "Holy Week", does this count?

Penitents from 'La Sanch' walk in procession on the street of Perpignan, France, April 22, during Holy Week celebration.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanch_Procession

[Bosonic]

25. Eeek!

[fascisthunter]

24. targeting one religious group...

bad

[alp227]

26. well, this law targets ANY religious person who prays in public

even a Christian would be ticketed if caught bowed down on knees and praying in the street. Obviously the first amendment isn't in france. article 11 of the Declaration of the Rights of Man in France says: "Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law." Hmm, this deals with speech, but looking at article 4 there's obviously a violation: "Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law." I mean as an atheist this law wouldn't affect me and i reject all religious belief but i think this is just stupid.

[fascisthunter]

38. it is stupid... it effects everyone

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. For those who have not been there when this goes on...

It blocks the streets 5 times a day from both automotive and pedestrian movement. Non-believers who attempt to walk around it are often not well treated. I tend to think that the government would not be interfering if it were not an ongoing public nuisance.

[No Elephants]

86. Then why not a law against street blocking? And why the verbiage about France being a secular state

[ProgressiveProfessor]

88. Good question...and I do not know enough about current French law to answer you

Bear in mind it is a Napoleonic system, dramatically different that English common law.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snagglepuss]

40. Their regularly praying in public is passive aggression. Those who do this want

to assert control and by doing it this way they can claim they are unfairly victimized.

[sudopod]

46. Try praying in the road here. Any kind of road, any kind of prayer.

I can assure you that it will not go over well. :p

[Duer 157099]

47. Good. "And when you pray, go into a closet..."

Sounds fine to me. Pray in your houses, your closets or your houses of worship.

Course if you're wiccan or such, outside might be the house of worship.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

48. What a stupid law.

And I'm not remotely religious.

[leftynyc]

63. So you think it's okay

if (in this instance), roads and sidewalks are blocked 5 times a day so people can pray? Everyone else should....what? Go around, wait for them to finish? What?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. Of course not, but the law is written much more broadly.

It doesn't specify if people are blocking streets. It simply states praying in the street (which could include a single person quietly doing it) is illegal.

[reorg]

89. gotta link?

according to what I read in German articles, the actual problem is lack of space, not enough mosques for the prayers which lead to this public nuisance for months on end.

[The Straight Story]

90. how about a law re: obstructing traffic/et al? Would make more sense

and not involve religion at all.

[reorg]

92. well, that's what this ordinance appears to be all about

"In fact, for several years now, every Friday, alongside dozens of mosques in France, Muslims have blocked the surrounding streets for an hour or two, spreading mats on the roads to pray. In many cases, local authorities close their eyes to this offense, and in some cases the police are there to ensure the safety of those who block the streets."

"... For over a decade, this practise has also developed in Europe, although it is perfectly illegal, since the street belongs to all pedestrians as well as motorists. This situation is recognized as totally unacceptable by all reasonable people, regardless of the principle of secularism. It becomes even more so, if one takes into account that these exceptions are no longer exceptional, since it takes place every Friday. And since this exception is applied to a specific religion, Islam, the impression of many is of an “invasion” of land, a kind of “conquest” of the national territory by the Muslims. There are no justifications for this occupation of public territory."

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=32144&pageid=44&pagename=Slices

Now that the city of Paris has provided some space for those who need it:

"Under an agreement signed this week, believers will be able to use the premises of a vast nearby fire station while awaiting the construction of a bigger mosque."

http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_lupe/0,,15392780,00.html

"'We could go as far as using force if necessary (to impose the ban), but it's a scenario I don't believe will happen, as dialogue (with local religious leaders) has born fruit,'"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/8766169/Praying-in-Paris-streets-outlawed.html

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

53. Praying should be ok, blocking traffic is an offense

If someone wants to prostrate themselves on the Field of Mars or the lawn of city hall, fine by me. But blocking a sidewalk or street with a mass of people praying, this is likely illegal. If you block traffic, you can expect to be arrested.

If the street blockage in the OP's photo is just some one-time protest demonstration, I'm all for it. Still, expect to be arrested if there's no parade permit.

:hi:

[Honeycombe8]

97. Actually, it sounds like praying is a-ok. You just can't prostrate yourself all over the place...

and make a scene of it. But anyone can pray anywhere, at any time. A Christian can pray in Pakistan. You just can't SHOW it. Of course, what happens to an openly praying Christian in Pakistan might be very different from a misdemeanor charge levied by a policeman to a prostrated praying muslim in France.

But I get it. Not sure how I feel about it. There are millions of muslims in France in a much smaller country than the U.S. Something that a few people might do somewhere here could get to be a problem when there are lots of them.

But...why aren't they praying in mosques? Isn't that where their religion dictates them to pray? Or no?

I would find it a nuisance. Because anytime someone prostrates himself in a city, on the ground, they'll be in the way of some other citizen. Just like if there were a group of homeless people sleeping on sidewalks or in the small park where my office bldg coworkers sometimes eat lunch. They're free to SIT there in the seats provided, walk along the paths, stand and look around. But that takes up a lot of room for a group to prostrate themselves. Doesn't sound safe to me.

Sounds like France is taking a hard stance on its secularism. I am wondering if there's a concern there that the muslims are gradually trying to take over certain practices or parts of the country. Sounds like that might be it.

[harun]

61. Stupid hateful law.

[snooper2]

62. Look at all those people wasting valuable time, really add it up..

They could be doing something constructive, even a nap would be more prouductive :rofl:


Oh well, at least they actually follow their holy book :)

[NoodleyAppendage]

72. I LOVE France. It might be time to move there.

America's on the the decline and democratic socialism is looking more and more attractive these days. Not to mention the realization by the French that religion is a pestilence on a progressive modern society.

[Honeycombe8]

98. The French work fewer hours than Americans do. They have universal health care.

Their citizens are slimmer and healthier.

But I think it's very expensive to live there. Housing is super expensive, I think, unless you live way out in the country, and then it's a super old house with constant repairs & no doctors or hospitals nearby.

I'd love to visit, though, and check it out.

[krabigirl]

108. Same here.

[GOTV]

77. I don't understand. Is the law saying I can't kneel down in the middle of the street to pray ...

... or am I also not allowed to cross myself when sitting on a public street bench.

[Ter]

78. Is that France or the Middle East?

Why are they praying in the street? Even in the US, there is no right to block traffic?

[and-justice-for-all]

105. Its pretty damn ridiculous to say the least...

is there not a park near by.

[War Horse]

91. Mon Dieu

Sensationalist headline.

I think some people misinterpret the adamant secularism of France. It's a "never again" mindset in many ways.

There are a lot of ugly undertones wrt Muslims, and that shouldn't be downplayed at all, but French secularism has been as basic tenet since the 18th century - kinda predates the current fear of Islam.

[moondust]

93. Remember Anders Breivik?

Somebody like him would see this picture and it would support his belief that Europe is being overrun by Muslims.

Public scenes like this may be perceived as cultural aggression and could potentially incite violence. I can't blame authorities for trying to ease public antagonisms by passing this law.

[Spider Jerusalem]

95. I'd be more worried about people pissing in the streets.

And not cleaning up after their dogs.

[Honeycombe8]

99. I'm sure there are laws against that, too. At least I hope so! nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

102. You've clearly never been to Paris :-/

[Honeycombe8]

103. Now, now. Be nice. nt

[msanthrope]

107. Seriously--a more dog-shit covered city I've never seen. nt

[and-justice-for-all]

104. I can see why...

thats is ridiculous.

[BiggJawn]

109. Matthew 6:6

"But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you."

Probably nothing in the Koran like that but it doesn't matter, few Christians pay attention to it either.