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alp227 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 02:35 PM
Original message
State Supreme Court to decide racial data case
Source: San Francisco Chronicle

The California Supreme Court has agreed to decide whether the State Bar must release racial data from the bar exam to a law professor who believes affirmative action may hurt minorities.

An appellate court had ruled in June that the professor, and the public, have a right of access to records of the lawyers' organization that don't reveal private information. But the state's high court voted unanimously Thursday to grant review of the State Bar's appeal. No hearing date has been scheduled.

The bar has collected racial information from test-takers since the 1970s, promising them confidentiality and publishing only overall results for racial and ethnic groups. But UCLA Law Professor Richard Sander wants individual information for a 25-year period, with names deleted, to test his thesis about private universities with minority admissions programs.

Sander said a study he conducted in 2004 indicated that preferential admissions policies place some minorities in top law schools where they are unable to compete effectively, decreasing their chances of passing the bar and becoming lawyers.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/08/27/BAK41KS5U0.DTL
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. What a crazy idea.
They gain admission to top law schools. If they graduate, and lots of beginning law school students do not graduate, they get considered for the best firms and the best jobs.

There are pros and cons to benefiting from affirmative action, I'm sure, but the pros -- even if you don't graduate -- are well worth it. You get to know people who can give you access to opportunity whether or not you finish school, whether or not you pass a bar exam.

What a waste of time researching this.

I don't think that race is a factor in determining who passes through law school or who passes the bar since a lot of the exams are given so as to preserve the identity of the exam-taker. You write down a number, and your grade is assigned to your number. Then after the grading process, your number is used to identify you. You never, ever forget that number.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-27-11 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. A guy from UCI has the same thesis about Univ. Calif. schools.
His data aren't bad.

Here's his thesis.

1. If you are really well prepared for college, then you "fit" at UCLA or Berkeley. You meet the professors' and university's expectations, you have the required skills and background knowledge, or close enough.

2. If you're a bit less prepared for college, then you "fit" at San Diego or some other UC schools. You have gaps in your knowledge and skills, and the professors and university adjust things to bootstrap you into the program. The frosh course start at a slightly lower level or the quality of the work that's needed is slightly lower.

3. If you're even less prepared for college, there are still a couple of UC schools that you "fit," as well as more CSU campuses. The quality of work expected is even lower, and the rigor of the frosh courses is lower. There are more support systems set up and a bit more hand-holding.

If you look at the stats for whites, it works. Those with a high drop-out rate at top tier schools trail in SAT scores, GPA, etc., etc. compared to those who graduate in 4-5 years. White kids with the same SAT scores, etc., as Berkeley dropouts do fine at UCI and graduate with a B. The kids that have a rough time at UCI trail in high school GPA and SAT scores (etc.) compared to successful UCI students, but are a match for those who graduate with a B at the bottom tier UC schools or mid-tier CSU schools.

His conclusion was that if those white college failures had gone to a slightly lesser school, they'd most likely have "fit" the college's profile and would have graduated.

This isn't controversial. It's what makes good schools good schools, middle-tier schools middle-tier schools. It works for 4-year colleges and law schools. Lots of kids go to a school that is pitched at too high a level for them and they crash and burn; we like to look at the exceptions and confuse the exceptions for the rule, and colleges don't like to publicize this particular "feature."

His next observation makes for controversy.

The typical affirmative action admit to UCLA and Berkeley, those who wouldn't otherwise have gotten in, had average SAT/highschool GPA like the cohort of whites that tended to drop out. In fact, if you match GPA/SAT and other criteria blacks and Latinos at top-tier UC schools "look like" the bottom decile of whites. And have the same drop-out rate, similar college GPAs. It's not a widely published number, but blacks and Latinos at top-tier UC schools have a shockingly huge drop-out rate, and those numbers are for a normative 6-year time to degree.

UCI had an active affirmative action program. *Their* average aff. action admit was very much like the bottom 10% of whites--similar dropout rate, high school GPA, etc. Just as it's not unreasonable to assume that the whites that dropped out would have done okay at a lesser school, so the blacks that dropped out would have done okay at a lesser school.

With the whites, it doesn't much matter. There are lots of whites going to school, and while it's a bunch of personal tragedies it's not a collective or group tragedy. A large percentage of black and Latino college students in the '90s had their entry scores increased by the aff. action program, in other words, they were, to some extent, affirmative action admits. His conclusion was that had minorities not been given bonus points for ethnicity/race they'd have had a much higher graduation rate.

This is not saying anything racist. It's saying that blacks that did poorly in high school are like whites that did poorly in high school--if anything, it's saying that race doesn't matter in this regard. There may be racism, but schools don't give "racism points" in coursework, they have the same expectations of a student regardless of skin melanin levels. A poorly prepared white is no more able to meet those expectations, on average, than a poorly prepared black or Latino.

It's often considered racist because we go schizophrenic. We argue that public schools disproportionately fail to properly prepare black/Latino students for college. Then we turn around and say that the lack of preparation doesn't matter, it's racist to say it does. This is lunacy. We assume that somehow a black affirmative action admit in the '90s could easily, in college, make up for years of crappy high school education *while* taking a full course load. Like that's going to happen.

Sanders' work is the model for the UCI guy's work, but he focused on law schools. If Student X is a good fit for Harvard, he'll almost certainly graduate; but because of prior gaps in training training Student X may be a better fit for a mid-tier law school, or even a bottom-tier law school. Putting a good but not excellent BA into Harvard leads to a mismatch; putting a low-grade BA into a mid-tier school leads to a mismatch. Skin color's irrelevant in this, but was used to get good black students into excellent schools, and mediocre black students into good schools. In other words, Sanders argues, they intentionally created a mismatch in order to look good.

The result at UCLA Law, like UCLA Humanities and Social Sciences (and the other two divisions) was a far higher black/Latino drop-out/fail rate. If it's not racism that leads the minority students to drop out, then you have to assume something else. Perhaps it's academic preparation--precisely what GPAs and LSATs were to test, and which were partly ignored in aff. action admit
decisions.

I saw the numbers when I was at UCLA. The administrators had been torn up over them for over a decade and continued to be unable to understand them. Sensitivity training didn't help, surveys about racism and how to fight it didn't help, monitoring didn't help, lots of tutoring (peer and otherwise) failed to help, and mentoring didn't help. Nothing moved the numbers. I doubt much would have moved the numbers for the lowest 10% of whites, either.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Here is the catch.
No matter what law school you go to, even if you graduate from a third-tier school with honors, you have to pass the bar exam. In California, that is a hurdle for many. I have known Harvard Law School grads who did not pass the first time.

But, if you attend a first- or second-tier school, your preparation for the Bar is likely to be better than if you attend the low-ranked schools.

In addition, unless you already know where you are going to work after law school, you will probably not get a job with a really good firm unless you graduate with a "name" law school.

In law, it isn't just a matter of graduating from somewhere, the school from which you graduate matters.

Of course, after a lawyer has practiced for some years, the LSAT scores, the ranking of the law school and how many times the lawyer had to take the Bar before passing it become irrelevant. What matters is winning or attracting clients, depending on your specialty. Some lawyers succeed because they are good businessmen or businesswomen and not because of their ranking in law school.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Does CA still allow someone to take the bar exam without
graduating from an ABA accredited school?
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I think so. I think you have to take a Baby Bar.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I don't follow your logic.
Edited on Sun Aug-28-11 10:49 AM by Kurska
If someone doesn't have the requisite knowledge to succeed in an environment, it is best to send them there anyways? Wouldn't it be best for them to go somewhere where they won't be assumed to have knowledge they don't and will be taught the things they need to know to remain on the same level as their classmates?
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. CA used to allow someone with practical experience, clerking and
paralegal, to take the exam.

The logic is whether the ABA is a private or public monopoly,
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. They can admit whomever they choose to for whatever reason.
Seems like the professor is trying to study if they are in fact doing people a disservice by letting them into programs they don't have the score for.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. But on a side note.
If the ABA is a public (Government) body, the information he is seeking is public information.

On the other hand, if the information is not public, it would indicate that the ABA has a private monopoly on the legal field. Especially if there is no other way to join the bar than through an ABA accredited school.
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. your assumption is that it's all about the book learning. but it's not.
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. "What a waste of time researching this." You don't know how research methods works.
Edited on Sun Aug-28-11 10:47 AM by Kurska
This guy wants to argue in facts "If you don't have a high enough score to get into a top tier law school, but go there anyways because of affirmative action, might that actually hurt your chances of becoming a lawyer (pass the bar)?"

How is that not a valid question to ask?
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