Britons to get Europe treaty vote

[T_i_B]

So...Tony Blair does have a "reverse gear" after all!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3637993.stm

The government is set to announce plans for a referendum on the European Union constitution, the BBC has learned.

The announcement is expected this week, possibly after Thursday's cabinet meeting.

If a referendum is called it will mark a major U-turn in policy given Tony Blair has previously rejected holding a referendum on the treaty.

The constitution will replace earlier European Union treaties and is designed to streamline decision making. Critics argue it will strengthen EU powers.

[freetobegay]

1. Please help someone ignorant on the subject

I just don't see how the EU can survive? I cannot see one nation giving some power to another nation. Am I missing something here?

[Solon]

2. From what I understand, to put it simply

Its not a nation that is gaining the power, but a supranational organization of several nations. To be honest, I do not know how successful the EU can be, I believe it should be more democratic for greater participation from European Citizens. Just this ignorant American's take on the institution.

[freetobegay]

3. I understand the concept but

If the EU votes & one on the nations doesn't like whats going to happen, whats stopping them from not doing it?

Example The United States flipping off the U.N.

[Solon]

4. Majority rules, I think.

Unlike the UN where the United States has veto power at least in the security council, I don't think any nation in the EU has absolute veto power over laws passed in the European Parliment, besides, from what I know, citizens elect these Ministers directly. A closer though not exact comparison would be one US state trying to override Congress for an act that Congress passes.

[Democat]

5. But the U.S. federal government has agents and the military to enforce

What power does the EU have to enforce their will on a country who decides to stray?

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. It's a complicated setup

and indeed one of the reasons for the new constitution is meant to be having one constitution would be simpler than the several treaties that now shape the EU.

To answer some of the questions here (but it's complicated enough that I may get some of this wrong too):

Most of the power in the EU is in the Council of Ministers - the representatives of the member governments. The EU Parliament is more a talking forum than a legislature.

In the Council, at present, some matters have to be agreed unanimously by the member governments - so even Luxembourg has a right of veto on those. Examples are taxation and foreign policy. Other matters have qualified majority voting - roughly proportional to the countries' populations, but with the smaller countries getting a bit bigger voice (a bit like the US electoral college). So some rules can be forced on a country if they are out-voted. It would still take the largest 6 countries to force a change on the remaining small 9.

The new constitution introduces the double majority, to replace qualified majority voting. This means a rule change must be agreed on, in the Council, both by a majority of nations (ie at least 13 out of 25), and by nations representing a majority of the EU population. I think the proposal is for a change needing 60% of each vote. Some change from qualified majority voting was needed, because most of the new EU nations are small (after enlargement, the total population of the smallest 15 countries will be less than the largest one, Germany).

The power to enforce these decisions is not physical - nations are expected to abide by the rules. When disputes arise, you get drawn out negotiations and legal cases. The EU can threaten to withold payments to countries (eg farm subsidies) if things get bad. Nations are allowed to leave the EU, unlike the United States, and I suppose the EU could expel a country if all the other countries agreed to.

[Flagg]

10. Huge economic sanctions

[T_i_B]

9. Hello Solon

from what I know, citizens elect these Ministers directly

Citizen's don't elect the ministers. They are selcted by the member governments I think. What the citizens do have a vote in is the members of the EU parliament, which approves the minister's legislation. The next European elections are in June as a matter of fact!

As to the veto's, that is one area where the EU constitution is trying to change things as some nations can veto some things, all can veto others. It's quite complex and there is a lot of horse-trading going on in that area at present. The UK government is currently pledging to keep the British veto in some areas which is fair enough.

I agree with you that it should be more democratic and open though. :-) The EU is very much in need of reform.

[Pert_UK]

7. I believe.....

that if you join the EU and then don't go along with its legislation then you will be punished (e.g. suspended grants, trade restrictions etc.) and could be expelled from the EU.

It's a difficult balancing act - there are many things to be gained from membership (especially for the poorer newcomers) but you do have to give up some degree of autonomy when it comes to lawmaking and financial dealings, national subsidies etc.

Unlike the US/UN situation, there isn't really a single EU member state that is obviously so much more influential than the rest - although some states are clearly more influential than others. The US can afford to ignore the UN with relatively little negative fallout, but no individual member of the EU is strong enough to totally rebel on EU matters without punishment.

Moreover, on some key issues regarding individual national sovereignty, individual member states can use a veto to reject a new policy in its entirety, which usually leads to it being re-drawn on different lines.

I think.

[Pert_UK]

8. Great, that's just what we need........

the people of Britain making the decision, when even top specialists and our elected politicians can't make up their minds!

P.

[rinsd]

15. A question...

I am largely ignorant about the EU's Constitution but I did hear it is ungoldly long...like 200 pages +...is that true?

[T_i_B]

16. It's true

here it is. I've posted this on a thread in General Discussion but I reckon it's time to introduce it on here. I think the exact number of pages is 265.

http://europa.eu.int/futurum/constitution/index_en.htm

[rinsd]

17. Thanks for the link (nt)

[mmonk]

11. I suspect moves

to strengthen the EU will gain more favor as an economic and political counterweight to US aggressive unilateral movement.

[T_i_B]

12. This is Britain we are talking about.

Although I personally think that it would be better for the whole of the EU to have a referendum on this matter this is a story about Britian and the EU is not at all popular in the UK. Partly due to vast swathes of the British press being very strongly Euro-sceptic, partly due to fears over national soverignity, Not to mention some of the policies that come out of the EU such as the C.A.P.

Bush does not come into this one really for most of us. The EU was unpopular before and it has remained unpopular regardless how unpopular the US government is.

And there lies the rub. If Blair holds a referendum on this matter he will almost certainly lose. That's why the euro-sceptics keep calling for referendum. Makes me wonder what they are up to here.

[dArKeR]

13. U-turn shows Blair's on the run, say Tories

By Katherine Baldwin

London - A U-turn by Tony Blair over a referendum on an European Union (EU) charter proves that the prime minister is running scared in the face of a resurgent opposition, his main political foe said.

Blair gives a statement to parliament later on Tuesday on the European Union constitution when he is expected to announce the referendum - a demand lodged by the opposition Conservatives and much of the press but until now fervently rejected by Blair.

"I think this is indeed a government on the run," Conservative Party leader Michael Howard said in an interview late on Monday.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1082448360761B216&set_id=1

[T_i_B]

14. Well, it IS confirmed now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3640949.stm

Tony Blair says a referendum is to be held on the new European constitution - but he has not named the date for a poll. For months the prime minister has denied the need for a vote, but on Tuesday he conceded it was time to "let the people have a final say".

He said MPs would debate the issue ahead of any poll - which is unlikely to be before the next general election.

Outlining his radical U-turn, Mr Blair told MPs it was time to resolve "once and for all" whether Britain wanted to be at the centre of Europe or not.

In a Commons statement, he said Parliament should debate the constitution question "in detail and decide upon it" and "then let the people have the final say".