Mark Duggan's uncle was crime lord : Man whose death sparked riots is linked to notorious gangland c

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Daily Mail

The suspected gangster whose death sparked the nationwide riots was the nephew of a notorious crime boss who boasted his gang had ‘more guns than the police’.

It emerged yesterday that Mark Duggan’s uncle was the late Desmond ‘Dessie’ Noonan, whose feared family are ‘major players’ in Manchester’s underworld.

And in a further indication of Duggan’s gangland links, investigators said yesterday that at the time of his death he had a fully-loaded Italian-made handgun wrapped in a sock.

Criminals often fire their weapons from inside a sock to avoid leaving forensic evidence and to catch cartridge cases.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025259/London-riots-Mark-Duggans-uncle-Desmond-Dessie-Noonan-crime-lord.html

[baldguy]

1. That means it was OK for the police to murder him?

[a2liberal]

2. This.

The media is of course trying to dig up anything they can to make the guy look bad but that still doesn't make it ok.

[dipsydoodle]

3. There was never doubt

about the special arms unit being authorised to fire and it doesn't follow that the officer who fired shot to kill.

Murder doesn't come into it.

[caseymoz]

15. To me, if you shoot and kill somebody, when you were trying to wound them,

it's probably manslaughter instead of murder one or two. That is, the British equivalent. I mean, if I drive a car, make a left turn and kill somebody in the crosswalk, I'm held responsible. Because I'm legally required to be in control of my car at all times. Apparently, this principle isn't supposed to apply to guns and police. No, murder would not be considered, and the jury might acquit.

So, his uncle is a gangster. Definitely there are parts of your own family you wish you weren't related to. That's guilt by innuendo. A standard smear tactic. Now if they had said he had a pistol with a sock and was a known crack dealer without calling that up, they would actually have more credibility in my mind. But since they used that innuendo, I expect that they've also just flat out lied, too.

It's a ridiculous point anyway. What fuels these riots has nothing to do with what sparked them, and anything probably could, and probably will again. Trying to discredit this one particular guy, when his role in this was random, when it wasn't the only incident, and when hope to get out of poverty has been slammed down is simply to drown yourself in irrelevancies.

Consider this: if he's just a scumbag, and if people were willing to riot like this over this his death, imagine what it would have been like if police had killed somebody honorable!

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. Hardly "murder"

armed police are rarely employed in Britain; most police officers don't carry firearms. There are specialist firearms officers who are used in situations where it's warranted; these police officers were sent after a suspect believed to be armed (who in the event it turns out was). We don't have the full story of the shooting, but firearms officers are authorised to use deadly force if in a situation where threatened (and we don't know if Duggan went for his gun or made a sudden movement that gave the officer in question reason to believe he was doing so). Quite honestly based simply on what's known it's entirely possible that some hesitation could have ended up with a dead police officer; I don't really see how that would be a better outcome.

[fasttense]

4. The Daily Mail is a conservative newspaper that would hardly side with the victim.

Since the conservatives created this mess and created the atmosphere for the riots, they are unlikely to to print anything of value concerning the victim of a police shooting.

I have my doubts that their reporting is accurate.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Well if its inaccurate

then doubtless his family will sue them - wiki too I guess where its now noted he was a crack dealer.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

12. Would you please explain

why you believe the conservatives created 'this mess' and created the atmosphere for the looting.

[dipsydoodle]

14. they didn't

They are correctiing New Labour's excesses which which were done effectively to buy votes.

[LeftishBrit]

19. 'Correcting New Labour's excesses'?

Do you actually PREFER the Conservatives to New Labour, bad as they were?? Do you consider that the government cuts are a good thing????

Conservative policies are PURE EVIL!!! And no, this doesn't justify the looters, who were nasty, greedy and destructive, and caused a lot of suffering to defenseless people - just like most Conservative governments, come to think of it.

[dipsydoodle]

21. That isn't a statement of support

for the Conservatives but it don't fact that New Labour created the economic mess from which we are now trying to recover.

[LeftishBrit]

24. No they didn't

The economic mess is global. It's affected most parts of the world. Certainly our dependence on the banking and financial industry made it worse; and certainly New Labour share the blame for that - they had many years to reverse Thatcherism and they didn't. And diversion of resources into Iraq didn't help.

But the Tories like to present the situation as one of 'Labour spent too much on public services and welfare and that caused all the problems; now we'll reverse it by cutting!' Actually the Tories would have cut public services and the social safety net, even without the existing economic mess. Because that's what Tories do. But the already-existing economic crisis made the effect of the Tory cuts even more horrible.

[dipsydoodle]

6. For Uncle referred to see here.

A Very British Gangster Current.rv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CPrACzhrBY&feature=related

Noonan died 4 days before that was broadaast :

Derek McDuffus, a drug dealer from South Manchester, was charged on 15 June after appearing at Preston Crown Court, and was eventually convicted of Noonan's murder, for which he received a life sentence. He was subsequently placed in solitary confinement to protect him from retribution by the Noonan family.<3>) The authorities suspected that Noonan, who had allegedly become a drug addict during the last months of his life, had been coercing local drug dealers into supplying him with narcotics, and had left the pub intoxicated in search of a drug dealer. McDuffus was charged and found guilty of his murder.<4> It is believed McDuffus stabbed Noonan and threw him out of his residence, following which he bled to death in the street.<5>

Noonan died four days before the broadcast of journalist Donal MacIntyre's documentary MacIntyre's Underworld, Die On The Wall featuring him and his brother.<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Noonan

[indurancevile]

17. your link contradicts your op.

it was reported that Mark Duggan, a 29 year old, alleged drug dealer and North London gang member who was shot and killed by officers from the Metropolitan Police<8> was a nephew of Desmond Noonan's second ex-wife.

sounds a little different.

also, noonan was irish.

[dipsydoodle]

23. As soon as he married his 2nd wife

Duggan became his nephew. WTF has Noonan being Irish got to do with anything ? Duggan is an Irish name too.

[indurancevile]

26. noonan = white. duggan's aunt was his "second ex-wife".

[naaman fletcher]

7. Duggan

[chill_wind]

8. Sounds like he was the target of an under-cover op- planned arrest that went down bady.

Investigators are focusing their attention on a 90-minute period during which Mr Duggan phoned his partner, Semone Wilson, to ask her to cook dinner before getting into his taxi for a trip across north London. During the journey he noticed he was being followed in unmarked cars by officers from Operation Trident, the Yard's long-running crackdown on gun crime in the black community. In a text to Ms Wilson from his BlackBerry, he wrote: "The Feds are following me."

Mr Duggan, who carried a distinctive tattoo on his neck, was a regular user of taxis. A manager for one firm said he would use its services two or three times a week to travel to Walthamstow and Edmonton. The Trident officers, backed up by a CO19 detachment, were conducting a "pre-planned" operation to arrest Mr Duggan, who went by the street name "Starrish Mark" – a name which supposedly links him to another north London criminal group with links to Jamaican Yardies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-crucial-question-should-police-have-shot-mark-duggan-2334133.html

[NOLALady]

9. Well, Alrighty then!

Certainly, the shooters were aware of Duggan's family connections before they took him out.

[bemildred]

10. Really grabbing at straws now, the dead guy is related to a dead guy. nt

[chill_wind]

11. Telegraph, GuardianUK, The Independent (various reporting)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-tottenham-shooting

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8687403/London-riots-Dead-man-Mark-Duggan-was-a-known-gangster-who-lived-by-the-gun.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-crucial-question-should-police-have-shot-mark-duggan-2334133.html

[booley]

13. As I recall Rodney King was a criminal

He was driving Drunk. He did have a criminal record from before.

I recall many using these facts (and they are facts) to justify the police's actions and cast the entirety of the riots as just a collection of lawless thugs.

But a few things occur to me.

FOr one, his treatment still wasn't right. IF a guy is surrounded by cops, restrained and down, it's just wrong to keep beating them. I guess I am old fashioned but I still think cops are suppose dot be peace keepers, not vigilante squads.

Undoubtidly there were lawless thugs in the riots. But that doesn't mean everybody was or that their motivation was a free tv.

and finally, I dont' think King was the real motivation. He was the spark but there had been this perception by the Black community that LA PD was corrupt and sadistic and when it appeared that even a video tape of a black man being beat down mercilessly couldn't get a conviction, it just all came to a head.

And I am not trying to justify the riots or compare them to some peaceful protest. But just being irrationally angry does not mean one doesn't have good reason to be angry. People ina rage act irrationally even when the reason for that rage is perfectly rational.

WHile I am sure this differs in many details from London, the essence seems the same. There was a problem long before Duggan who is more of a symbol then anything. And he senseless beatings and looting doesn't mean that problem isn't real.

[struggle4progress]

16. A week ago, the Daily Mail reported Duggan opened fire on police:

... Duggan, a known offender from London’s notorious Broadwater Farm Estate, became aware that he was being followed and opened fire on the officers. He shot the officer from Scotland Yard’s elite firearms squad CO19 in the side of his chest with a handgun. The bullet lodged in the police radio that the undercover officer was carrying in a side pocket. Armed officers shot the gunman dead seconds later ...
Pictured: The 'gangsta' gunman killed in shoot-out with police whose death sparked riots
By Rebecca Camber
Last updated at 12:13 PM on 7th August 2011
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022670/Gangster-Mark-Duggan-shot-police-London-cab-shootout.html

The Mail isn't terribly reliable. We know now Duggan never shot at the police and that reports of Duggan shooting an officer actually meant a police-issue bullet lodged in a radio worn by one of the officers:

Mark Duggan did not shoot at police, says IPCC
IPCC releases initial findings of ballistics tests in police shooting of Mark Duggan, whose death sparked London riots
Jeevan Vasagar
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 9 August 2011 18.34 BST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/mark-duggan-police-ipcc

Mark Duggan death: IPCC says it inadvertently misled media
Police watchdog says it led media to believe shots were exchanged but Duggan was carrying gun that was never used
Paul Lewis and Sandra Laville
guardian.co.uk, Friday 12 August 2011 17.47 BST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/12/mark-duggan-ipcc-misled-media

Doubts emerge over Duggan shooting as London burns
Initial ballistics tests suggest bullet lodged in officer's radio during incident in Tottenham was police issue
Sandra Laville, Paul Lewis, Vikram Dodd and Caroline Davies
The Guardian, Monday 8 August 2011
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/07/police-attack-london-burns

Now the Mail says:
... Noonan’s second wife Julie, 50, is the sister of Duggan’s mother Pamela ...
Mark Duggan's uncle was crime lord: Man whose death sparked riots is linked to notorious gangland chiefs
By David Williams
Last updated at 10:34 AM on 13th August 2011
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025259/London-riots-Mark-Duggans-uncle-Desmond-Dessie-Noonan-crime-lord.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

... the couple divorced ...
13/08/2011
London riots: Duggan was Manchester ganglord's nephew
http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5362590

So maybe Duggan's mother's sister was Noonan's second ex-wife, but they divorced when Duggan was about eleven, and Noonan's been dead for years

[LeftishBrit]

20. Yes, well, even in the days when we had capital punishment...

being the nephew of a crime boss was not a capital offense. Especially not without a trial first.

The point is not whether Duggan was a saint; the question is whether the police killed him unlawfully. This depends on whether it was self-defence (i.e. was he shooting at or threatening to kill them), which is what was initially alleged, but there's now some doubt about it.

And the Daily Mail is often known as the Daily Lie, or Daily Fail, in any case.

[dipsydoodle]

22. It didn't need to be self defence

only what they considered to be an imminent threat - those are the current rules. If he hadn't been carrying then yes it would be a differnt matter. The initial allegation was a bi-product of the IPPC making a verbal statement to the press. I doubt that will ever happen again now or at least for a long while. The press can just wait.

The Daily Mial link was just a convenient one. You'll find the other papers are carrying it too. Aside from other links to the subject posted above The Sun actually had it on Friday 12th : http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3747840/Gangster-suspect-Mark-Duggan-shot-dead-by-police-was-nephew-of-crime-lord.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

[LeftishBrit]

25. The Sun is even worse than the Daily Mail.

In any case, I'm reserving judgement about the legality of the police action until the results of the investigation are known. But either way, it's not relevant who his uncle was (or ex-husband of his aunt, in this case!).