US government loses triple-A credit rating

[nadinbrzezinski]

Source: MSNBC

The United States lost its top-notch AAA credit rating from Standard & Poor's Friday, in a dramatic reversal of fortune for the world's largest economy.

S&P cut the long-term U.S. credit rating by one notch to AA-plus on concerns about growing budget deficits.
U.S. Treasuries, once undisputedly seen as the safest investment in the world, are now rated lower than bonds issued by countries such as the United Kingdom, Germany, France or Canada.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44040574/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/

---

Edited to add content after banner took me to actual story

[Poll_Blind]

1. THOSE FUCKERS.

PB

[Ruby the Liberal]

3. This is a GOOD thing

They did this because they wanted to see tax increases and don't believe congress can get it done.

[roamer65]

6. BINGO.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Our interest rates are in serious danger of rising passed the point that Americans with...

...credit will not be able to pay off the extra.

PB

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. Not with AAA to AA+ and not without Moodys & Fitch joining in

It is sending a LOUD message to Congress.

This is more symbolic than anything.

[Poll_Blind]

18. I've read that some institutions are allowed only to purchase bonds which are rated AAA

That's one of the problems. I agree with you that it's just a little matter in most ways but if organizations are hardwired only to invest in bonds with a certain credit rating (such as AAA in this case), it could mean big problems for us to sell our bonds.

PB

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Calpers comes to mind IIRC

[Ruby the Liberal]

24. Thats why I noted AA+

Had they gone to AA, I would be more inclined to worry about rates.

[LarryNM]

73. Force Pensions to Invest More in AAA Corporations

Then the CEOs and assorted criminals destroy the company and run off with the assets (think Enron, Countrywide, etc.) and pension benefits take the hits.

[No Elephants]

149. An indirect way of privatizing Social Security.

[cstanleytech]

130. We didnt go down to an AA with moodys

just S&P.
Maybe though this will if we are lucky finally force a certain party in congress to realize that their arrogant stance on not raising taxes even a little on the wealthier portion of the country and not reforming and closing tax loopholes is causing us more problems than its helping with keepings things as they are now.

[No Elephants]

150. Follow the money.

Where do ratings agencies get their money? Wall Street, not Main Street.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

197. ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MONEY ...

These are the same ratings agencies who gave Lehman Brothers a good rating (much like Arthur Anderson, as an accounting firm, gave Enron good marks for their accounting practices).

This is why WE need government oversight and regulation (and hard prison time for those caught rigging the system).

[Ruby the Liberal]

155. Right. Why I said :"without Moodys and Fitch" joining in.

[davidwparker]

213. Hope you're right, Ruby. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Which explains the talk this afternoon

about debt holiday... Now that talk from Ezra Klein makes a lot more sense.

[jeff47]

57. Eh, not really.

Japan got downgraded during the "lost decade". They're still downgraded. Their interest rates are still around 2-3% last I looked. And their deficit/GDP ratio is much worse than the US.

[Art_from_Ark]

107. Where are these 3% interest rates of which you speak?

http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/rates-bonds/government-bonds/japan/

Also, Japan's debt is mainly held by the Japanese themselves.

[stranger81]

70. Though the GOP can be counted on to spin the downgrade

as a reaction to the debt deal's failure to cut deeply enough.

[ShockediSay]

74. You mean the neoCons turned neoFascists? nt

[whatchamacallit]

77. I understand your assumption

and I hope you're right, but I just don't think this is going to play out that way.

[tcaudilllg]

128. No it's not.

That's not what this is: it's the culmination of a conspiracy to eliminate socialist governing elements across the globe. These ratings agencies alone are the drivers of austerity across the entire western world. They are playing a long game, but they've lost patience now that the Tea Party is on the outs. This, in turn, made them reckless.

Notice the obsession with fiscal conservatism: only the right is that obsessed with stability that it would penalize a country for not having it. This is haughty heavy-handedness from "on high" -- only aristocrats think that way.

In short, S&P is run by hardliners who will stop at nothing to destroy SS and Medicare. They are simply smart enough to try to avoid detection, because they know the majority disagrees.

[hughee99]

141. If this is part of a conspiracy to eliminate socialist governing elements

Why do the UK, France and Germany (all far more socialist) still have AAA ratings with a Debt/GDP ratio considerably higher than the US?

[tcaudilllg]

145. Because they are taking the medicine at the recommended dosage.

From S&P's POV, everything is on track there.

[Enthusiast]

159. International fascism. nt

[24601]

194. Yes, they are all wearing black shirts and are helping the neo-

nazis round up the Jews.

Oh, no they're not....never mind.

Maybe it's not really fascism after all.

[libmom74]

212. I think you misunderstand the term fascism.

"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini



From Dictionary.com

World English Dictionary-

fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm)

1.

any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism

2.

any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc

3.

prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism







Fascism (ˈfæʃɪzəm)


the political movement, doctrine, system, or regime of Benito Mussolini in Italy, which encouraged militarism and nationalism, organizing the country along hierarchical authoritarian lines



Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source







Word Origin & History

fascism

1922, originally used in English 1920 in its Italian form (see fascist). Applied to similar groups in Germany from 1923; applied to everyone since the rise of the Internet.
"A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
Cite This Source




Cultural Dictionary
fascism <( fash -iz-uhm)>


A system of government that flourished in Europe from the 1920s to the end of World War II. Germany under Adolf Hitler, Italy under Mussolini, and Spain under Franco were all fascist states. As a rule, fascist governments are dominated by a dictator, who usually possesses a magnetic personality, wears a showy uniform, and rallies his followers by mass parades; appeals to strident nationalism; and promotes suspicion or hatred of both foreigners and “impure” people within his own nation, such as the Jews in Germany. Although both communism and fascism are forms of totalitarianism, fascism does not demand state ownership of the means of production, nor is fascism committed to the achievement of economic equality. In theory, communism opposes the identification of government with a single charismatic leader (the “ cult of personality”), which is the cornerstone of fascism. Whereas communists are considered left-wing, fascists are usually described as right-wing.

Note : Today, the term fascist is used loosely to refer to military dictatorships, as well as governments or individuals that profess racism and that act in an arbitrary, high-handed manner.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

[Enthusiast]

225. Our opponents are "fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism"

I stand by my assertion that this global movement is international fascism. It is precisely international fascism.

[MADem]

224. Fascism is still terribly popular in some corners--Italy, for example.

It really doesn't have anything to do with genocide, in general. It's just that one of 'em went way off the rails and killed several million people in the middle of the last century.

[hughee99]

131. Or spending cuts...

I don't think they care one way or another how Congress goes about controlling the deficit.

[plumbob]

144. They did this for the same reason they rated mortgage securities made from shit as gold.

To make money for their lender-masters by raising interest rates. If you can't get demand up to put pressure on credit, lower the rating and get the money that way.

Giant scam.

[jwirr]

146. I also see this as a warning to the obstructionists that enough is enough. nt

[No Elephants]

148. I hope you're correct Ruby. but

some of the other posts on this thread are more consistent with the greed that motivates Wall Street.

[SKKY]

188. I agree with you, but I don't understand the argument...

...or why this would press congress to raise taxes? This seems to me that it will only embolden the "Me Party" to get further cuts when what we really need are revenue increases. I heard someone the other day say that our economy is hemoragging jobs. We're not hemmoraging jobs. We're hemoragging revenue.

[Why Syzygy]

199. How is it GOOD

when criminal credit rating agencies are MAKING POLICY? Theirs is the tune to which we dance?

Does it occur that there is something fundamentally flawed about a society who judges another according to how much
they can BORROW? That's what you get in a debt based monetary system. But it is just Wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Actually one of the reasons is sound

we need to raise taxes, but current teahadist dogma makes it impossible

Now let me see if I can get more than pesky breaking nooz banner

[QC]

2. It's too bad we "looked forward" instead of busting S&P and Moody's

for their instrumental role in the financial crisis.

[Bluebear]

14. Yes we did!

[jeff47]

54. I do believe there is an element of their fraud that is on-going

So the DoJ could still ruin their day. (I don't remember the details of the argument)

Given the downgrade, perhaps it's time to stop pretending we need their help?

[QC]

58. I don't think *this* DoJ would have the nerve to ruin their day,

but you're right--a strong DoJ could make life very hard for these crooks.

[xocet]

135. +1 n/t

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. Good!!

Now maybe those idiots in Congress will wake up and pay attention.

RAISE TAXES.

[roxiejules]

32. Oh, look......S&P says Medicare is a problem

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sp-downgrades-us-aa-outlook-negative-full-text


The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America's governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy. Despite this year's wide-ranging debate, in our view, the differences between political parties have proven to be extraordinarily difficult to bridge, and, as we see it, the resulting agreement fell well short of the comprehensive fiscal consolidation program that some proponents had envisaged until quite recently. Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability.

[JDPriestly]

119. In other words, steal the money in the Social Security Trust Fund

and never pay it back -- steal from the elderly and the poor -- or we will downgrade your bonds and impoverish you.

This is ridiculous. How dare a ratings agency interfere in the democratic processes of our country.

Standard and Poors should be investigated for their role in the subprime fraud.

[roxiejules]

139. This is Manchurian creepy

and now the masses will be told to pay for the sins of the bankers and eat cat food.

[Enthusiast]

160. Well...

"How dare a ratings agency interfere in the democratic processes of our country."

Congress is interfering with the democratic process. They are fully aware that "we the people" wanted taxes increased to protect social security and medicare. They ignored us, both parties. Obama could have allowed the Bush tax cuts to expire and we wouldn't even be in this mess.

Democracy is done. Say it again.

[No Elephants]

151. I think we have a thread winner on our hands here, folks.

And an additional message from S & P: "Look what a Democratic President did to America, so vote for Mittens. He's rich. He REALLY understands this crap and he knows how to help America. The rich always do. How do you think the got rich in the first place?"

[Pooka Fey]

8. K&R

[Akoto]

9. Breaking: S&P Cuts US Credit Rating down to AA+

Source: MSNBC

S&P has downgraded the United States credit rating to AA+. This is the first debt downgrade by S&P in US history.

Read more: None Yet

[maddezmom]

10. US AAA credit rating downgraded ...bbc link here

Source: BBC

US AAA credit rating downgraded One of the world's biggest credit rating agencies, Standard & Poor's, has downgraded the United States' top-notch AAA rating.

S&P cut the long-term US credit rating by one notch to AA+, citing concerns about growing budget deficits.



Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14428930

[Name removed]

229. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dad Infinitum]

11. America is over

Thanks Tea Party, mission accomplished.

[Poll_Blind]

19. It's not over, but it _could_ get very rough, especially if anyone else throws in with S&P!

PB

[ixion]

112. I would imagine Moody's will follow suit

they've already been talking about it.

[tcaudilllg]

123. Great: we get to see TWO Tea Party fronts put on trial!

[No Elephants]

153. In our dreams?

[abelenkpe]

12. FU S&P nt

[krispos42]

13. More important to not tax the rich than keep the AAA rating, I see.

Thanks, Republicans. Thanks.

[Ruby the Liberal]

17. +1

[Stuart G]

36. plus 2

[Mayflower1]

71. When Obama had the majority in both houses,

PLEASE, tell me why taxes weren't raised then? Why ? It was our only chance.

[jeff47]

75. It wouldn't be bipartisan.

Someone in the village media might have said "tut-tut"!!

[jmowreader]

76. It is very simple, Mayflower...

If the Democrats would have tried it, the Republicans would have shut down the government.

[No Elephants]

157. No, they would not have. They did it with Clinton and it backfired on them badly.

Republican leaders who were interviewed on T.V. over the debt ceiling mentioning over and over how they had no intention of doing that again.

[Enthusiast]

162. No. The Bush tax cuts were set to expire.

It was automatic. Obama intervened.

[No Elephants]

174. Yep, which is why were are now operating under the Obama tax cuts. He owns this batch, not Bush.

[davidwparker]

215. O had to extend the Bush tax cuts so that the (R)'s would

not be put into a position to blink over extending the federal unemployment checks when state checks had run out. That, and he didn't want taxes to go up for those under 250K.

Similar will be used on 31 Dec 2012 to extend them again. Without jobs in THIS COUNTRY, the economy will be no better than it is then that it is now. Possibly worse.

(Unless, of course, you believe the 23 dimensional chess magic.)

[Veruca Salt]

82. +3

[Enthusiast]

161. Republicans will just say

it's Obama, because Obama is a communist. Their followers already believe it.

[krispos42]

206. And a Nazi, of course!

[CJvR]

220. Sure he can!

He has a muslim sould, a communist mind, a nazi heart and a peacnic's yellow spine!

See? It is easy to fit the square peg if you use a big enough hammer! :)

[krispos42]

223. Hell of a hammer...

:D

[hootinholler]

20. Majority leader Cantor: Cha-Ching! Cha-Ching!

I wonder how many more of those tea bagging sick fucks cashed in?

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Actually his shorting was on DEFAULT, not on

lowering the debt rating

[Ruby the Liberal]

26. No such thing as s short on 'default'. The ETF is short US Treasuries

Betting they go down in value, which an interest rate increase will do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. I thought the ETFs were on default

bad me.

Well let's scream it from the rooftops!

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. No such animal.

ETFs are passively managed mutual funds. They set a strategy and the computer makes the trading decisions. Some follow indexes (like the Nasdaq), other sectors (like transportation or financials). This one is sovereign debt and the purpose is short.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. oops, in other words something I let my expert

deal with

[Ruby the Liberal]

52. LOL! Yeah. ETF benefits are cheaper than mutual funds

because of passive management, but really need to be blended into an overall portfolio strategy because of how concentrated they are.

[No Elephants]

175. A default would have resulted in an interest rate increase, so, if you follow it through one more

step, Cantor did bet a default would make his investment profitable.

Since he had something to say about whether the U.S. would default or not, the Ethics Committee should be investigating him and every other legislator who made that same bet or a similar one. It's a disgrace that there has been no action on that.

[Angry Dragon]

23. This is on the republicans

Boner gets on the air waves and brags he got 98% of what he wanted
so any downgrade is his and all the other republicans fault

Where are the jobs boner??
What are you going to do about the downgrade??

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. YEp and downgrade? What downgrade?

On the bright side, a few folks in places like WS... will think twice about these people and funding them.

The GOP might have lost a little luster with the bidness community.

[Ruby the Liberal]

27. S&P wouldn't have done this without the permission of WS

They are not happy. They told McConnell and Boehner to raise the damn debt limit, not to strangle the economy with austerity cuts.

Boehner and his pet turtle disobeyed them.

Lob, volley, lob, volley.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Not only that, wanna bet a few of their regular donors

are looking at either primaries or democrats now?...

Bed and all that

[roxiejules]

35. Does this mean Obama didn't have to cave in to the Tea Party?

Got a downgrade anyway?

[Ruby the Liberal]

47. That is exactly what this means.

Wall Street expected a clean debt ceiling increase, they tacked on austerity and the markets tanked this week (company stock). Because this was austerity without tax increases, it spilled over into the bond market and thus, our rating.

[Imajika]

67. What?

S&P is saying they wanted MORE cuts and MORE tax increases, not a clean debt ceiling increase.

[roxiejules]

91. S&P: 'assumes tax cuts will remain in place'

"Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act."



http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/08/05/sp-downgrades-u-s-debt-rating-press-release/

[Imajika]

97. That is but a piece of their statement...

S&P made it very clear they wanted a 4 trillion deficit reduction compromise to go along with the debt ceiling increase. NOT a clean debt ceiling increase.

The fact that the regressive party will fight all revenue increases is obviously part of the problem, but even President Obama is NOT calling for the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts to expire - only the cuts on the top 2%.

Now the upside of this is there is much better change the Shrub tax cuts on the top 2% go away, the downside is the S&P also claims to want entitlement cuts and the pressure to do will be enormous.

I personally think the S&P is full of crap, but the absolute LAST thing we want to do is get in a slash spending bidding war with the GOP. You can never, ever out-cut a Republican considering they'd just assume eliminate all of our social safety net.

[Mosaic]

125. Ever since we were bullied by Dumbya

Many Dems are traumatized to automatically fear the repubs. I'm sure they eat that up. Don't feed the beast!

[No Elephants]

177. You have to go back one more administration to find the root of the problem.

If you are center right, you are not being bullied by Republicans. You simply agree with their ideas. Or, you think governing as a Republican is your best shot at your own election or re-election.

But, as a Democratic pol, you may not think it wise to admit either possibility publicly.

No one bullied Clinton into asking a Democratic Congress to enact DADT, instead of simply repealing Reagan's Executive Order banning gays from the militry. No one bullied Clinton into having Morris as an advisor.

No one bullied Clinton into telling Democrats in Congress "I want repeal of Glass Steagall on my desk, ASAP." (Only 8 Democratic Senators resisted their Party's leader on that one. Harkin, one of the eight, recently said how much pressure Clinton had put on Democrats to pass that POS.

Repeal of Glass Steagall. DADT. Welfare "reform." NAFTA. These were not things Clinton was bullied into signing.

"The last thing this country needs is two Republican Parties." Senator Simon. It was not Dummya who bullied Democrats like Harkin. It was Democrats like Clinton, From, Marshall, Lieberman, the Clintons, Warner, Baines, et al. who bullied Democrats like Harking.

And we have another center right President and many in Congress who either always have been center right or seemed to have somehow morphed from classic Democrats into center right Democrats. And we have a center right DNC as well.

"The last thing this country needs is two Republican Parties." Senator Simon.

The sooner we stop blaming Dummya for everything that is wrong years after he left office, the sooner we can work on solutions to the real problem.

Really, if our President, Senators and members of Congress, the most powerful people in our country, as well as some of our richest, were that traumatized by Dummaya, and still are governing out of that trauma, they really are too fragile to hold the offices they hold.

[davidwparker]

217. 100% Right - 0% Wrong

[roxiejules]

140. and now there will be a hand picked Super Committee

rather than a full Congress to make those Super cuts.

[rayofreason]

98. That right...

...and that seems to be what most people are missing.

The problem is the deficit and debt. The fact that we have gone for 2 years without a budget doesn't help either. And that can't be laid at any doorstep except the Dems. They didn't pass a budget!!!

That is not what I voted for. I wanted a straight, here-is-what-it-takes budget proposal from my Democratic party when they had the House, the Senate, and the White House in their hands. Not namby-pamby scurrying around in the dark bullshit. If revenue was to be part of the solution then why were the Bush tax cuts extended? "Oh, but the Repugs will demagogue it" is just an excuse for a failure of leadership to act when there was a clear mandate for change. And Obama's hammering of corporate jet write-offs is just laughable. We are talking 8% of GDP here, not chump change!

We cannot continue to borrow huge amounts to finance our government. Until a solution to that impasse is found there will be nothing but bad economic news.

And to the Democratic leadership - Look reality in the eye, grow a pair, and do what has to be done to ensure that the deficit gets under control.

[rayofreason]

102. How to calculate your social security payout>>>>

Take your age, multiply by three, divide by 117.74, multiply by the average of your highest annual income in each decade since you started working, divide by pi, now subtract that number from itself. You are done!

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Add Spain and Italy to this though

part of this mess.

Of course these days it is global

[sweetapogee]

143. could you explain

Not that I disagree with you overall but I don't have all your knowledge. Could you explain in laymen's terms why the EU is also suffering a market meltdown problems and they are also talking about imposing limited austerity, they are already raising taxes and yet have the same economic difficulties as the US? Do you think it's unfair that the EU is imposing conditions on member countries before they can receive bailout funds?

[Ruby the Liberal]

152. Thanks for asking my opinion.

I am not in any position to comment on the EU politically as I know very little as to what is going on over there.

What I will offer is that the uncertainty of our leadership (10% of the country holding us all hostage over ideology) is enough to make investors nervous as to which hostage will be taken next. Compounding that is the fact that McConnell stated in so many words Wednesday that this is how ALL debt ceiling debates will be handles from here on out. The uncertainty of dysfunctional/unclear leadership is what S&P cut our rating for, not the risk of default. That is their job be it corporations or sovereign debt.

As far as I know, while the EU has credit issues, they are not like ours. While the EU countries may not be able to pay their debts, we told the world that we can, but are willing to refuse to.

Bad mojo right there.

As far as fairness, I am a student of the Keynesian school of economics that believes in the strength of sovereign nations using debt and deficit spending to prop the economy in downturns IF and only IF that deficit spending is investment (infrastructure/education). Non-investment spending is a recipe for disaster, like taking a vacation one can't afford or starting wars. Bush hit us with the double whammy of 2 unfunded wars AND tax cuts during a downturn - and he put it all on the credit card. We can't undo that, but like Europe, the only way to get out of the mess is to deficit spend to prime the pump.

Cool quote I saw tonight (see link for explanation of where the income comes from)

With the remaining $300 billion dollars we set up collateral on infrastructure projects in each state. Then we allow private financing of any project to match our initial collateral, and then unleash 10 million Americans like ants to build them.

What do I suggest they build, you may ask.

Who gives a shit?

In blue states we can build wind farms and solar paneled roofs as far as the eye can see. In red states we can build 200 ft tall statues of Ronald Reagan in various poses (Reagan on a horse, Reagan leaning on a fence post, ect...)

After two years with 2% or 3% unemployment, the GDP will grow massively. By the time this program ends, the private market will be begging for employees to meet the self feeding demand we've created.

Also we'll have spurred clean energy solutions, as well as having immortalized the Gipper beyond the dreams of any Pharaoh.

All that matters is we prime the pump.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/05/1003652/-My-Jobs-Program?via=spotlight

[davidwparker]

218. +1

LOL. Reagan on a horse, Reagan leaning on a fence post ...

Funny.

[tsuki]

92. Italy raided the offices of S&P and Moody's. From my understanding,

it was done without a leak. Italy is investigating whether S&P and Moody's were behind the "anomalous fluctuations in Italian share prices".

Congress is out until September, but I cannot help wonder if they are telling Congress to get back to DC and start another food fight to provide cover so we won't find out what Italy uncovers.

Now, I shall remove my :tinfoilhat:

[Mayflower1]

72. Boner has control of only the house

There is plenty of blame to spread to the Senate and WH. Taxes should have been raised when we had control of both houses. Tell me again why that didn't happen???

Anyone?

Bueller?

[Amonester]

105. It didn't happen because the faux neeooze clowns would have screamed

SOCIALISM 24/7 (even if they did it 24/7 without tax increases). :crazy:

So why, you might ask, didn't they increase them anyway? Go figure... :silly:

[No Elephants]

156. You're saying we didn't raise taxes because of something we IMAGINED the Rethugs might SAY?

Republicans always find soemthing bad to say about Democrats, no matter what.

So, why would any sane Democratic elected official let what a Repunblican MIGHT say determine his or her actions?

Seriously, these attempts to make Democrats the victims, no matter what, succeed only in making them seem too lame to govern by far. And I don;t think that is the issue.

Taxes were not raised because Republicans do not believe in raising taxes during a recession, no matter what. And we have a Republican Secretary of Treasury.

[arikara]

137. If I remember correctly

they were quivering in their boots because the repubs in the senate might filibuster. Therefore nothing got done.

[No Elephants]

176. Yep, but Romney is saying otherwise. What a surprise.

[davidwparker]

216. I so agree with this. In fact, when Washington Journal

started this morning and they asked for comments, I sent Boehner's 98% comment and his being happy with it as my reason for the outcome, when S&P said part of the reason for the downgrade was no revenue.

Boehner's clip should be on a many of political ads for him and other 'cons for damages this has done.

[Hosnon]

29. LOL. Anything from the Wizards of Wall Street isn't credible.

I'd trust a snake oil salesman over anyone on Wall Street.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. The problem is that the snake oil sales man don't affect your life

these guys do.

[Hosnon]

37. This won't affect interest rates much; it's but one agency. nt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. One, that MIGHT be followed by others

AA+ with negative outlook

[jeff47]

51. The others have already affirmed a AAA since the deal. So they're not likely to downgrade

And since people are pointing out a $2T error in S&P's numbers, it's less likely.

I hope this makes the WH realize catering to S&P doesn't help them. Time to have the DoJ investigate them for fraud regarding mortgage-backed securities.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. The qualifier used by the others was... "for the moment."

And these agencies are strange beasts.

[jeff47]

60. "moment" should be longer than a weekend.

And with $2T math error, I kinda doubt they'd follow for a while anyway. They'd have to say "we agree with people who can't add" until the error gets sorted out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. Yes it is longer than a weekend, but whatever

[avaistheone1]

31. Last time this happened to the U.S.A. was 70 years ago.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. I thought we escaped that during the Big D...

[stranger81]

56. We did.

Our triple-A rating has never been lowered since the rating was first issued in 1917.

[jeff47]

38. Correction: S&P can't do math, doesn't actually downgrade US

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2011/08/05/math-is-hard/

Edit: They were only off by $2 trillion. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/05/us-usa-debt-downgrade-idUSTRE7746VF20110805

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. But they have, you have the EARLIER story

[jeff47]

45. Yes, it looks like the reports they cared about the math error were wrong.

From S&P's site: http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245316529563

[Kennah]

41. As someone who was once so deluded I voted Republican for decades ...

Fuck you S&P! The nation should have laid the hammer down on you long ago given your involvement in the financial collapse.

Fuck you GOP! Don your Whigs 'cause you are headed for irrelevance.

Fuck you Tea Baggers! Crying, whining, sniveling, economically bipolar bastards.

[No Elephants]

173. The reformed smoker is usually the one most annoyed by smoke.

Or, in the case of reformed Republicans, by smoke and mirrors.

Glad you stopped voting for the people who hate most Americans most.

[Stuart G]

43. At 9 pm Eastern here are world markets:

Japan
Nikkei
9,299.88
–533.15
–5.42%


HangSeng
20,946.14
–1,494.11
–6.66%


China
Shanghai
2,626.42
–75.31
–2.79%

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Get ready for this...

WEEEEEE

[Ruby the Liberal]

50. You sure that isn't the close fro this morning?

Markets don't open back up until Sunday night.

[Stuart G]

68. I got it off they NYT cover page..may be the totals for week.

That is, that was this weeks action on those markets. Last weeks change in those markets.

If I mislead, anyone sorry..

http://www.nytimes.com/

[ixion]

111. Ouch

that's gonna leave a mark.

[Hosnon]

44. Wait... we're supposed to take the word of those who can't do simple math??

To the tune of $2 trillion. And numbers are their trade!

Hahahaha. Lord I hope I meet an S&P executive one day. I could use the ego boost.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Well yes, aparently little jimmy can't carry

a trillion or eat peas

[goforit]

53. Thank you tea party and rethuglicans!!! No taxes no rating.

[tcaudilllg]

124. Let it go man: S&P is a Tea Party front!

[liberal N proud]

59. Damn it

I was about to buy a car, fuck that shit

[jeff47]

65. Well, consumer loan interest rates don't have much to do with sovereign debt interest rates

It can have an effect, but consumer rates float on their own.

ETA: Fixed rates. Variable rates are pegged to something, and could be pegged to sovereign debt. Usually they're pegged to something else.

First, sovereign debt rate would actually have to rise. That may or may not happen. Depends on how much people believe in S&P. Then that would have to crowd-out consumer debt, causing those rates to rise.

After S&P (and others) downgraded Japanese debt several years ago, the interest rates on Japanese debt went down.

[obxhead]

61. .

[Psephos]

62. Geithner, April 2011: "No risk" that US could lose its AAA credit rating

Peter Barnes: “Is there a risk that the United States could lose its AAA credit rating? Yes or no?”

Geithner’s response: “No risk of that.”

“No risk?” Barnes asked.

“No risk,” Geithner said.


Have a look yourself at this ZeroHedge link.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/and-just-because-there-risk-us-could-lose-its-aaa-rating-tim-geithner-no-risk

This is how our "leaders" think. Or rather, how they don't.

[No Elephants]

180. Geithner did not think his fellow Wall Street Republicans would betray him.

[fujiyama]

63. We can squarely place the blame on the republicans for this

They're blind faith that cuts in spending, regulations, and taxes will somehow stimulate demand and hiring has been proven to be nonsense. Not a single piece of legislation has come out the GOP House that directly addresses unemployment. Instead their real focus, as made clear by Orin Hatch, Bachmann, among others is that the tax burden should be further shifted from those profiting and doing the best, to those hurting the most.

I do have to wonder why the ratings agencies have escaped any and all scrutiny after their role in the financial crisis. I don't understand why they hold credibility after issuing AAA ratings for companies that ended up bankrupt or bailed out. What's amazing is that with everything that happened three years ago, so little has changed. Oh we've seen, a few congresspeople making some grand speeches during hearings, but fundamentally and structurally nothing has really changed.

Either way, this reiterates how absolutely insane and irresponsible the republican congress has acted. I think a double dip is all but certain at this point - not that it matters outside of a technical sense - for millions of people out there there was no recovery anyways.

[BenzoDia]

64. I think Obama was smart to not play the 14th Amendment card.

the US would've been downgraded, and the Republicans would've been able to make an easy case against him.

[No Elephants]

158. As opposed to the U.S. being downgraded anyway, after "concessions" to Republicans?

Seems as though we did not dodge that bullet.

Anyway, Republicans learned their lesson from impeaching Clinton. Also from shutting down the government under Clinton. They were not about to do either again.

Kabuki.


And, so what if Republicans could make an "easy" case against Obama? I totally disagree that premise to begin with, but, even if you are correct about an "easy case," so what?

The Republican House had a slam dunk case against Clinton for perjury. (Perjury, not a good faith reading of a part of the Constitution that the SCOTUS has interpreted only one time. Perjury.)

Indisputable evidence of perjury in court transcripts and videotapes seen by the world. The Democratic Senate found him not guilty and would do the same if Obama were impeached.

Not that House Republicans would have impeached Obama. They learned from what happened after Republicans in the House impeached Clinton. Cantor and his buds don't want to campaign for re-election with their approval ratings in the teens and blow their 2010 gains.

And, btw, it is not all about Obama or his re-election. He's supposed to do what is best for the American people, period.

[BenzoDia]

201. Republicans did not learn their lesson. Obama warned that we were going to be downgraded,

and look where we are now. Pushed over in part do due polarizing politics. Republicans were praying he'd pull that card so they wouldn't have to vote to have the debt ceiling raised. All too easy for them while liberals are nodding along.

Entitlement benefits are protected from automatic cuts and the cuts that are in the Budget Control Act phase in over time. And no matter what, taxes are going up with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts or with a preemptive deal to avoid that. So that sounds like the mix of cuts and revenue that polls show the majority of American people wanted.

[Enthusiast]

163. Make an easy case against him?

Hell, they call him a communist every single day. What else can they do?

[KeyserSoze87]

69. Well you know what?

S&P and all those other ratings agencies can go fuck themselves. These clowns should be in jail for what they did before the financial crisis.

[julian09]

78. Wasn't there a vote that shot down

on being able to sue rating agencies for there erroneous calls; a few weeks ago by the re pugs.

[KeyserSoze87]

80. My God, Republicans are a virus.

[No Elephants]

167. Yes, but not because they allegedly stopped this vote from being taken.

[KeyserSoze87]

200. True.

[No Elephants]

164. You don't sue people for erroneous judgment calls, made in good faith. You sue

people for fraud or negligence.

And we already have ample laws, both statutory and judge made, that allow lawsuits, SEC proceedings and even criminal prosecutions, against Wall Street types for intentional or negligent misleading of investors and potential investors. We lack only the will to enforce them.

Mind you, I don't know if a vote on this issue was in fact proposed. However, I do know that, if it was, it was grandstanding, nothing more.

I mean, sure, you could pretend new legislation is neede and you're all over it, but showboating is all that would be.

[slay]

79. I'm just glad Obama waited til the last minute and gave everything away first!

:sarcasm: If he had made this a non-issue MONTHS ago by just saying the debt ceiling is always raised, show the 11 times under Reagan and 7 under Bush jr or whatever it was. If he had made it a non-issue back then OR done the 14th Amendment like Clinton said it never would have come to this shit. This IS indeed Disaster Capitalism - and we are in deep shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine

[TomCADem]

114. President Obama Did Say This. It Was Repeatedly Noted That Debt Ceiling...

...has always been raised.

It is amazing the degrees to which "liberals" blame Democrats, and give Republicans a free pass.

For goodness sakes, are you suggesting that people did not know that the debt ceiling has always been raised? The Obama administration repeatedly asserted that raising the debt ceiling did not constitute new spending, just a satisfaction of prior obligations.

[No Elephants]

171. The last two lines of your post are THE justification for invoking the 14th amendment.

So, you ending up proving the other poster's point.

And, it only seems to you that "liberals" are giving Republicans a free pass. (By the way, is "liberals" in quotation marks your term for anyone who criticizes President Obama?)

I've seen you post that in LBN at least a hundred times and it's never once been a correct description of what a poster has done. Maybe you've nailed it in posts I've never seen, but I somehow doubt it.

Unless a poster is clearly a RW troll, posting on a Democratic board in and of itself means you disapprove of most or all things Republicans do and believe. It's a given. It does not mean every post pointing out that Democratics have been falling short AS WELL, has to be prefaced with, "Well, as we all know, Republicans are vile. However...."

That would be ridiculous, much as believing all the problems this country has to today are attribute to Republicans and only Republicans is ridiculous.

The poster you maligned never gave Republicans a pass for refusing to raise the debt ceiling, not even implicitly. The poster blamed Obama for having tools against that kind of vileness, yet not using them. That is not the poster giving Republicans a pass.

It's the poster criticizing Obama for failing to use his tools to overcome Republicans. (Whether the poster had facts correct is a separate issue.) People who want Democrats to stop Republicans are the last ones who can be rightfully accused of giving Republicans a pass. People who point out and grieve when Democrats act like Republicans are the last ones who should be accused of giving Republicans a pass.

Your post had substantive, factual content. And that's great.

The best and most effective response to speech with which you disagree is to refute it with facts, not to attack the speaker or attempt to shame him or her into silence. Democrats don't favor censorship or prior restraints.

Unfortunately, your standard pot shot about a poster allegedly blaming Democrats while giving Republicans a pass lessened the credibility of your post.

[Mosaic]

129. I wonder

How Naomi Klein became so wise and premonitory? A bit strange.

[FarCenter]

81. As part of financial reform, the S&P, Moody's, and Fitch oligopoly should have been broken up

The legislation that gives them a privileged position should have been repealed.

[caseymoz]

83. That debt ceiling was an idiot button, and Repubs showed they were idiots.

Of course we were downgraded. If you could threaten a default of the nation, you've proved you're irresponsible. Note the S&P statement mentioned how unfortunate it was that taxes weren't considered. They also gave their opinion on this "super-Congress" monstrosity.

In the coming months as the government is compelled to cut even more, expect another downgrade and expect The Depression.

Really, the only reason why the Scumbaggers would have tried this brinkmanship is if they thought the conditions created with a default would be favorable to them rebuilding this nation in their image. Sorry, Mr. Goodwin, but that's exact hope the Nazis had in Germany.

[julian09]

89. The Gop wing of the Tea Party

Gave TP cover instead of leadership, now own the consequences.
They should have used the balanced approach, including taxes.
Obama wanted the bigger deal, but Boehner walked on revenue increases.
Boehner has to treat the TP as the one third of the repuglican caucus they are and set policy. Let the Blue Dogs and Tea Party unite.

[Mosaic]

133. And we know how that turned out

for the stupid nazis.

[caseymoz]

142. But I think in this case the Scumbaggers miscalculated.

I don't think anything they want is going to rise from the rubble they're making.

[No Elephants]

181. Agree. I posted a few weeks ago that we'd be downgraded no matter what.

Talk of not raising the ceiling alone was more than enough for skittish Wall Street.

Besides, why pass up an opportunity to make a Democratic President look bad?

[Proles]

85. It's a shame, this country used to do great things and now

it's like we're growing more pathetic... thanks to the republicans of course.

President Obama, despite all his flaws, did manage to pull us out of a recession and onto the slow road to recovery, but now the repug's and their tea bagger enablers did everything they could to trash this economy.

They seem to be succeeding, but hopefully the American people realize who's truly responsible.

[No Elephants]

172. Yet, a Nobel Prize-winning Democratic economist referred to Obama as the second coming of Hoover.

And he was not the only Democratic economist in that view.

Not that infallibility is a hallmark of economists in general or that one in particular. Still, food for thought, unlessw we simply take the Administration's word for it.

[hayrow]

86. Take a serious look at our situation

Who in their right mind would loan money at the best rates to the hillbilly trailer trash teabaggers that have taken control of the government? Those a-holes were ready to let the government default. If it were me, I would demand the pick-up-truck vehicle titles from the teabagger sort of borrower that our sad government has become, prior to loaning it anything.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divine Discontent]

93. your warmongers B*sh & Dick are the reason this country is in the sad state it is - go get an

education, and then we might let you talk. But, make sure it's not one of those bullshit places that churns out bigots, like Liberty U (which took nearly a half billion from the US Gov't last year - More than NPR!)

oh, and get the hell off our site dirtbag freeloader gop moran!

[Enthusiast]

165. PLUS ONE!

[Divine Discontent]

178. TY, Enthusiast.

[julian09]

104. Downgrade was due to S&P realizing that repugs

will not give in on taxes, which is required to reduce debt. The hostage taking of the world economy every time debt ceiling is due. What will Nov bring more of the same? More cuts more unemployment for state and municipal workers because of less federal aid. Today we had over 150,000 gain private sector but ended up with 117,000 net gain because of 34,000 job losses in public sector. Since tax cuts were extended eight months ago, jobs are no better than the previous 10 years of the same policy.



What is that about insanity, doing same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[SpiralHawk]

88. Freaking RepubliCons and their TeaBagger minions did this to America

Traitors...

[ProDem4]

100. Intellectual Honesty

If not for the Tea Partiers we would not have cut any spending and not raised taxes either.

Our President had two years to raise all the taxes he wanted to, He had all three branches.

They told us if we did not cut 4 trillion they would downgrade us and we didn't believe them.

Look at the end of this deal, in 10 years the debt will be 26 Trillion with a GDP of 14.5 Trillion

And today all progressive talking heads were saying spend spend spend.

Wake up America it's not Bush's fault it's not the Tea Partys fault.

It's the Democrats, Republicans, Geitner and Obamas fault.

I hate to say it but the Cold Hard Truth is...

No matter how charming, smart, and a Great Speech giver.

This Presidency has been a disaster.

And all he does is blame everybody else.

[julian09]

110. Bring Hoover back

never mind we got The Tea Party.

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SKKY]

190. Um, no.

You can't pass anything, regardless if you have the majority or not, if you don't have enough votes to stop a filibuster.

You think the GDP is only going to increase that much in 10 years?

You have to spend money to make money. Infrastructure projects that create jobs, for example.

You're right, it's not the Tea Party's fault. They're kids playing an adult game, and are being used by both sides. Set up if you will. This started with Reagan, continued with Clinton and Bush. If there is a "Cold Hard Truth" to anything you've said, it would be that Clinton is more responsible for the economic position we can't recover from than either Bush or Obama.

[No Elephants]

193. He did not have all three branches.

He had the House, the Senate and the WH, which add up to two branches. The SCOTUS is the third branch, and that has been controlled by Republicans throughout Obama's administration.

[SpiralHawk]

195. Bullshit

False equivilance turds will not float in the sea of truth.

The Republicons and their TeaBagging Brats did this to America.

And Americans know it.

[Enthusiast]

166. "Traitors"

It's the only word that fits.

[RoccoR5955]

90. Imagine if Boner got 100% of what he wanted? n/t

[nineteen50]

94. AND

from the guts that gave credit default swaps triple a. When is
enough too much?

[MODem75]

95. Wall Street created Frankenstein's monster aka The Tea Party

Now it is coming back on them.

[No Elephants]

182. The Koch brothers brewed the Tea Party. And they still seem to be doing very well.

Than again, the first billion is the hardest. After that, you can even leave it in the bank overnight at 1 % interest and still do well.

Why, oh why didn't my daddy work for Josef Stalin, too?

[nineteen50]

96. And this

from the guys that gave triple A ratings to credit defaults
swaps.

[madrchsod]

99. ya,they are really creditable.....

[JawJaw]

207. The Question That Remains Unanswered:

Who rates the ratings agencies?

[Jim_Shorts]

101. Me thinks, me smells a skunk

We just passed Dodd-Frank and we can now prosecute securities analysts for fraudulent ratings and S&P IS PISSED. At one point they have suggested that we need make changes to SS and Medicare. This thing is knee deep in politics.

A must read by Jane Hamsher: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/07/29-12

[No Elephants]

183. ? We always had the ability to prosecute anyone for fraud.

[Jim_Shorts]

198. Was looking for a truncated way to explain the changes in law

Maybe a bad use of the word "fraud". Jane's article explains some of the changes.

[rayofreason]

103. How to calculate your social security payout>>>>

Take your age, multiply by three, divide by 117.74, multiply by the average of your highest annual income in each decade since you started working, divide by pi, now subtract that number from itself. You are done!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

106. Obama's first stimulus should have been 3 times times larger then it was..maybe 4x's

on edit: -k

[TomCADem]

108. This Will Really Make It Hard To Save Social Security and Medicare Under President Romney

This provides strong ammunition for corporate America to argue that the only way regain the U.S. Triple AAA rating is to completely chuck social security and Medicare and privitize them. Also, the Grover Norquist Amendment gains additional traction.

[Safetykitten]

109. Correct.

[julian09]

116. End the wars, then end SOC and Medicare for republicans

negotiate drug prices with big pharma, cut defense spending 100 billion a year, after reducing bases worldwide. Retiring 10% of generals and admirals.

[Mosaic]

136. There never will be a president romney

That's conventional wisdom inside the beltway.

[maxomai2]

154. Beltway CW. Right

Didn't Beltway CW predict that Hillary Clinton would be President?

[Enthusiast]

169. I got news for you.

Social Security and Medicare and medicare will not be saved. Under no circumstances will Democrats or Obama ruffle the feathers of the PTB by saving Social Security and Medicare.

[No Elephants]

184. Obama should never have opened the door to cutting Social Security. Never. Not a Democratic

President. He's made it easier for any President hereafter.

[chrisa]

210. President Romney? Hahahahaha

Broken Mitt can kiss my arse

[Jim_Shorts]

113. No sense in proceeding, may as well burn it, burn it all

[johnaries]

115. Say goodbye to the Petrodollar. I hope I'm wrong.

But there was already a push to have the Euro replace the American Dollar as the standard worldwide. I don't see how it can be avoided, now.

Watch for increased inflation, as the dollar falls on the worldwide market. For currency investors, some of you will get very rich on your PIPS, some of you are about to go broke.

Thank you for destroying our economy, Republicans. At least you were true to your ideology. Fuckers.

[JDPriestly]

117. Germany, France and the UK have more worker-friendly

labor laws than we do. Interesting.
I just don't know about the UK.

[JDPriestly]

118. So, the subprime mortgage derivatives were triple A, but the US

government is not?

Standard & Poors' opinions are not worth the newsprint in this story.

[Psephos]

121. The mortgage backed securities actually weren't AAA, but it took a while to find that out.

It seems we're in a similar process of discovery about the true creditworthiness of the US government.

The government is borrowing 40 cents of every dollar it currently spends. That ratio will get worse, and soon.

No one on the planet can keep "lending" the US a trillion and a half dollars every year. That's why the Fed and Treasury have colluded on "Quantitative Easing"(and are about to again, despite assurances they wouldn't), whereby the Fed magically prints hundreds of billions out of thin air and uses it to buy all the Treasury bonds that no one else wants.

So the government prints fake money to buy the government's own debt. That game is just about up.

The only wonder is why it took so long to recognize that this isn't what AAA sovereigns do.

[No Elephants]

185. Maybe there's still hope. We know exactly where to find Bernie Madoff!

[Enthusiast]

170. Good point.......nt

[ocd liberal]

120. Dramatic reversal of fortune?

Not too dramatic for anyone who has been on DU since 2000. It's a long time coming.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tcaudilllg]

122. If you have equity in S&P...

SELL IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW! The stock will be worthless by the end of next week.

This is a dead company. DOA. There's a slight chance it will be taken into conservatorship, because this is flatly an act of treason.

[No Elephants]

186. I take it you're assuming someone will prosecute.

[bkkyosemite]

127. Haven't had a chance to read all the posts on this one but

my initial gut feeling is that they are saying (S&P) that we need to cut "entitlements" in order to get our house in order. I see nothing about them saying raise taxes or revenue but then again I have not read it all yet. Seems the repubs are gonna have a hayday with this one and we are screwed. I am on Medicare and Social Security disability and soon to be Social Security. My husband has a pension. Guess I better stake out the best bridge in town to sleep under. If this happens this country is going to have a fit and we will all be marching to DC furious with our government and is that when our military come home to come after us protestors...geeze this is getting pretty scary. Think we are gonna have a rough ride ahead. Someone here who can cheer me up..hoping...dunno.. :-(

[tcaudilllg]

132. Bkkyo don't believe it.

They are counting on your despair! Chin up man: we're finally about to see the REAL Barack Obama, the man who went after UBL. ;) Wait and see.

[bkkyosemite]

134. Hope your right and it's Ms... :-) Okay I'll try double chin up...

[No Elephants]

187. Exactly how close did Obama get to Bin Ladin?

I could have sworn I saw a photo of him sitting safely and very well protected in the WH, watching the Navy Seals secretly riskingg THEIR lives at his command. Is that the Obama you want us to wait for? If so, I think we can stop waiting. I think that's the same Obama as multi-millionaire Obama who scolds Democrats for resisting an "adult conversation" about cutting Social Security and Medicare, something that will never cause him or his family to go hungry or die. (Just wait until his post administration earnings top Bubba's.)

Besides, you cannot compare something that can only help Obama get re-elected (getting Osama killed) with protecting "entitlements," which Obama has wanted all along to cut.

He never promised to keep Osama alive. He did promise to cut Social Security and Medicare. True, that was President Elect Obama. And it was President Obama who created the Cat Food Commission. President Obama was also the one who offered Republican cuts to "entitlements" after the Republicans had backed off them.

Candidate Obama never said anything like that. Candidate Obama said the wage cap had to be raised.

Wish we had elected Candidate Obama.

Oh, wait. We did.

[Mosaic]

138. No fear

Never give up. That's what an entire party is for. Progressives will bring them in line soon enough.

[No Elephants]

189. I hope you're right, but they've had a very long time to rig the game against the left.

(I assume you do mean the "left of the left," not "center" right "pragmatic progressives," as in "Progressive Policy Institute, the Place for Pragmatic Progressives.")

Founder of PPI: Will Marshall, also a founder of the DLC, also a signer of the 2003 PNAC memo.

Goolsbee, outgoing member of the Obama administration, was on The Daily Show recently, rhapsodizing about how "infrastructure bank" was going to help the economy.

Turns out, Goolsbee is a former employee of PPI. And, of course, PPI complimented Obama on appointing Goolsbee. http://progressivefix.com/the-talented-mr-goolsbee

Also turns out, PPI was the one that recommended an Infrastucture Bank to Obama back in February. http://progressivefix.com/getting-america-moving-again The same Infrastructure Bank former PPI employee was rhapsodizing about on The Daily Show recently.

So many incestuous, er, cosy concidences.

Anyhoo, as I was saying, I assume the left.

[Psephos]

147. If cuts ever do get made, they will affect future recipients, not current.

Even the pugs say that. Seniors vote more than any other group. It would be political suicide to disenfranchise those who paid in throughout their lives, and now dependent upon the system.

You should not worry. Seriously. :)

[No Elephants]

191. Not so fast. One of the cuts that has been proposed is

a change in the manner of calculating the COLA. Said change will result in all recipients of OASDI getting even less of a COLA than they already do. Over time, the cumulative effect of the change will be severe for those who have no other income.

Remember, even the current method of calculating the COLA does not account for ANY increase in the cost of food, which is deemed "too volatile" to be taken into account for the purpose of OASDI.

Also remember, the at the current method of calculating the COLA has left Social Security recipients getting the same amount in 2011 that they got in 2009, which, in turn was based on 2008 prices of a certain group of things other than food.

Now, you can, Like Pelosi, say "a cut is a cut" and therefore decreasing the amount of increase by fiddling with the COLA is "not a cut." However, a person trying to live on only OASDI recognizes sophistry, even if he or she doesn't know the word.

With apologies to both Annunziata and Gertrude Stein, less to try to live on is less to try to live on.

[underpants]

196. .

[Violet_Crumble]

179. Couldn't see that one coming!

I found a list of the ratings of countries. There's quite a few with AAA ratings, including Australia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_credit_rating

[No Elephants]

192. "Another downgrade is possible within twelve to eighteen months."

Thanks, ALL you @##$@ on Wall Street and on Capitol Hill.

Let's see, how close to election day 2012 is twelve to eighteen months from now? October Surpise, anyone?

[santamargarita]

202. This is what happens when the Democrats don't vote!

[sabrina 1]

222. This is what happens when elected Democrats turn right and

get on board with Austerity Globalists.

Voters voted for a 'changel' from those policies. What we got was more of them. No real democrat will ever consider handing over the New Deal to the Austerity Globalists. Yet, it happened.

Why are S&P not mentioning the Wars? Why do they mention 'entitlement' programs in every report they make? Who are these people our government is catering to? And where is the opposition to selling this country to Global Capitalists? Democrats? No! Obama did exactly what S&P wanted when he proposed a package that would cut over 4 trillion dollars. That is what S&P demanded.

Republicans turned it down. Thank God! Where do you think those cuts were going to come from? The Military? Tax increases on the Wealthy? He already extended the Bush Tax Cuts when Democrats HAD A MAJORITY!

And you are blaming voters? Unbelievable.

[santamargarita]

226. I'm blaming those that did 't vote in the mid-term elections!

[sabrina 1]

227. That would be mostly Independents. Most progressives

retained their seats. Sadly two of the best did not. However that happened because of huge amounts of money being poured into those campaigns from the other side. The Dem Leadership also did not go out of its way to help people like Grayson, eg, either.

The current leadership is far more likely to spend, or waste, its money on Blue Dogs and DLCers, even when they know they will lose. I guess the Leadership would rather have a Republican than a progressive Democrat in Congress. We have to do something about that this time.

[santamargarita]

228. Well said, thanks...

[Qutzupalotl]

203. Double A plus is ungood.

Any chance we could restore a AAA rating if Norquist were shamed into accepting tax hikes? If enough pressure were brought to bear, showing that the damage to the economy from higher interest rates would cost businesses more than higher taxes would? I already know the answer, and it's not until the evidence is there, and by then it will be too late.

[Myrina]

204. so all the bs kabuki theatre over the last 2 weeks was, well, bullshit.

.... "we have to raise the debt ceiling or they're gonna downgrade our ratings!" and of course included in the debt ceiling discussion came all of the domestic spending cuts and the promise of the Super Congress that will eliminate even more of the social safety net ... buuuuutttttttttt .... we got downgraded ANY DAMN WAY.

So we got doublefucked - domestic programs slashed/no tax increases on the uberwealthy or corporations, the coming doom of additional cuts AND our rating tanked.

Thanks, "elected officials". Nice to you who's side you're really on.

[IamK]

205. It was done to pressure Washington into the "grand bargin"...

1 trillion in tax increases and 4 trillion in cuts.... It will happen, its just a matter of time..

[WoodyM90]

208. Are you really surprised that S&P lowered the debt ceiling?

The republicans control the House. There is a minority of so-called Tea Baggers in the house that control the republicans. They have fantastic sounding bumper sticker solutions to all our problems. But these solutions have no connection to the real world.

However, they have demonstrated that they will force this nation to default on its debt to get what they want. This is like you and your other half going to the bank and asking for a loan. In talking with the banker one of you, say “If the other half won’t let me do want I want to I will not pay you back.” Do you think you would get the loan? What you are saying is that if I do not like something I will not pay my debts, not because I cannot but because I will not.

McConnell is already talking about how this will be standard procedure for debt ceiling raises in the future. How many will we have before the next election?
From what I remember the man from Moodys on TV saying he made an indirect reference to this attitude and the Bush tax cuts still being in effect.

Just another little thought. Obama will win reelection easily. Not because of support from Democrats but because the PTB in the republican party will want him to. They have rolled him from the start of his administration. Beginning with the public option in the health care bill. They continue to roll him up and including offering Social Security and Medicare offered before it was even asked for. This was a violation of Democratic principles of any true Democrat. They would have him to roll to get what they want and then blame him when it hit the fan.

[Progressive dog]

219. Teabagger and Republican have always been synonyms

There is not and has never been a difference.

[Terry in Austin]

209. S&P should worry about getting downgraded back!

They've gotten so used to being the unchallenged arbiters of the capitalist "state", they think they can take on the civic state.

Those suits think they can impose "a reversal of fortune" on the Empire -- they might have gotten away with it with Moldova or Sierra Leone, but they're poking the big dog now.

It's raw power, and when it comes to a showdown like this, only one question matters: Can S&P spank the US government, or will it just end up being the spankee?

This is gonna be good...

:popcorn:

[pam4water]

211. I'm sure some how the higher interest rates will mean more money for the banksters.

[DeSwiss]

214. Talk about rich.

These sleazy mofos downgrading a whole country? They who are lower than a slimy-ass snail's belly?

Fuck you assholes.

I wait in rapt anticipation for the day when your asses are frogmarched before a tribunal and then put away for life.


- That's the basic dream anyway.......

K&R

[CJvR]

221. A bit surprising.

Also highly embarrassing for S&P to have made a trivial 2 trillion counting error... :)

Still it is hard to argue with lowering the rating of a country where half of the elected representatives seem to think a government default is something desirable, or at least not anything particularly worrying.

I note alot of conspiracy paranoia above, but lets remember that the rating firms only have whatever power governments hand them. The moronic debt ceiling construct combined with a moronic Congress created this situation totally unnecessarily.