Athens in chaos as new cuts debated

[Bragi]

Source: CBC news

Tens of thousands of angry protesters turned Athens into a violent riot scene on Tuesday, as the demonstrations against tough austerity measures in the debt-laden country escalated.

The latest measures must pass in two parliamentary votes Wednesday and Thursday if Greece is to receive bailout funds from the EU and the IMF that will keep it from becoming the first eurozone nation to default on its debts.

The clashes with police came at the start of a two-day general strike called by unions furious that the government's new €28 billion ($39 billion) austerity program will slap taxes on minimum wage earners and other struggling Greeks. The measures come on top of other spending cuts and tax hikes that have battered the Greek economy, which is currently labouring under an unemployment rate of more than 16 per cent.

Hooded youths ripped up paving stones and set trash bins on fire in central Athens as police gave chase and fired tear gas and stun grenades. Earlier, about 20,000 people had marched peacefully in two separate demonstrations, while another 7,000 protested in the northern city of Thessaloniki without incident.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/28/greece-strike-protest.html

---

It's good to see that in some countries, people actually will burn trash bins and throw bricks to show how they feel about having to reduce public services and benefits to pay off bankers and bond holders.

I find there to be much more dignity in doing this than, say, sitting in one's rented living room watching TeeVee and wondering if you can make it through the month, what with your job having been exported, your pension stolen, your savings looted and drained, and your house foreclosed.

Unfortunately, Americans lack the social cohesion needed to go to the streets and make a statement. The worst-hit economic victims in America are more likely to support police beating up anyone with the temerity to protest than they are to join any protest.

Sigh...

[dipsydoodle]

1. Exact details of the proposed austrity measures are here

on the BBC News site : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13940431

[Bragi]

3. Yep, bankers and bond holders are the big winners /nt

[msongs]

2. there was a time when democratic policiticians were against such austerity and corporate rip offs nt

[Bragi]

8. True, but FDR has been gone for a long time /nt

[No Elephants]

52. FDR not the last Democrat to espouse those views. However, the number sure has dwindled.

[plumbob]

4. I don't know why they're called austerity. They need to be called robbery.

Robbery from the lower income to the higher income levels.

Good for the people in Athens. I hope no one is killed, but I do hope they have some impact.

[StarsInHerHair]

42. this is the same policy that Reagan did to Central & South America.........it's

guaranteed to create a wide gap between those who DONT work but are parasites, & those who DO work & are robbed blind. FDR measures are what works. this austerity crap is a guaranteed FAILURE to achieve what its' makers claim is the goal.

[No Elephants]

53. Austerity, robbery, avoiding global economic collapse, Wall Street bailout.

A turd blossom by any other name is still a turd blossom.

[WatsonT]

5. Don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the greeks

Tax evasion at ever income level is something of a national past time over there.

They did this to themselves.

[Bragi]

6. Sure, the bankers and the billionaires are victims

So the workers and low-income people were cheating on their taxes, while rich people and banks and corporations had to pick up the slack and pay their taxes.

Dunno, that just doesn't seem to fit the pattern, does it.

[WatsonT]

31. Look in to it

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

Everyone in Greece cheats on their taxes it seems.

[Bragi]

34. Your article makes my point!

I remember that article from last year. It describes who is most likely to cheat on taxes, and it isn't wage earners, it's a few self-employed trades, but mostly it is business and professionals who can hide income and avoid tax.

That's the point. It ISN'T everyone that's cheating, it's only people who can hide income, which excludes salary and wage earners.

[WatsonT]

35. It seemed to be most everyone

I don't suppose the guy who ran a newspaper stand was either a billionaire or a banker. Do you?

Also are you under the impression that doctors do not receive a salary/wage?

[No Elephants]

56. Some do; some don't.

[newspeak]

80. yeah, so all Greeks

must be punished for those, especially, the wealthy who cheated on taxes. So let's sell all Greek assets to the highest corporate bidder. That will teach those Greeks a lesson, it wasn't like they also got caught up with our Wall Street mortgage hucksters. It's all their fault. So do you think when the corporate jackals buy up all they can, they'll rename Greece?

[No Elephants]

60. Look into U.S. tax evasion, esp. underreported and unreported income.

[WatsonT]

67. It exists, what's your point?

It's a well recognized fact that the greeks take it to a new extreme.

[No Elephants]

70. Our own government says we do very well at it.

My point is, you said you had no sympathy for Greeks because they evade taxes. If so, you should have no sympathy for anyone in the U.S., either. Or, preferably, sympathy for folks in both countries. All of us are suffering for similar reasons.

[StarsInHerHair]

41. ignore the W

[No Elephants]

57. What fun would that be?

[StarsInHerHair]

78. well........

[bemildred]

7. Just remember that cavalier attitude when your neck is on the block. nt

[WatsonT]

32. I don't lie about my income

or use illegal means to get out of paying my taxes.

[No Elephants]

62. Yes, but that will not get the bridge you drive over most often repaired or rebuilt.

I don't lie on my taxes, either, but I have to live with the cuts in services in this country anyway.

[WatsonT]

68. We're talking about greece here

a nation infamous for skipping it's taxes.

They can blame the bankers all they want for their deficits but in reality it's their own damn fault.

[No Elephants]

71. No, in the post to which I responded, you were talking about yourself.

And my response was that, in any country, the people who are law abiding suffer along with those who aren't. And I made the comparison because we, in the U.S. are also infamous for both skipping our taxes and skewing our tax laws.

[WatsonT]

76. We are not infamous for not paying our taxes

that is false.

We have a lot of loopholes that are exploited. That is sneaky but legal.

This is completely different than a doctor claiming he is making poverty wages or lying about the existence of a pool in the backyard.

[Harmony Blue]

10. Actually that is not true

Just like the U.S., the tax evasion at the top is what has led to the economic crisis worldwide.

[dipsydoodle]

15. Tax evasion at all levels more likely

One of the measures will INCREASE their personal tax to just over 8.33% . Not sure how that compares with the US but UK rates dwarf that using 20% anything over c £6000 in simple terms - that's aside from c. 12% in addition for NHS payments.

The situation also appears to be aggravated by the Greeks having no organised tax collection system as such which actually works.

[Harmony Blue]

26. It isn't all levels though

It is not a situation like Bulgaria that is happening in Greece. It is the rich Greeks that have caused this crisis just like BoA receiving tax rebates in the U.S. while Medicare is on the chopping block currently.

I highly advise people don't fall for the propaganda as the Greek workforce works many hours compared to their European counterparts and even to similar levels compared to U.S./S. Korean workforces.

[JDPriestly]

29. Those whose taxes are deducted from their pay don't and can't cheat!

And that is most ordinary working people everywhere in the US and Europe.

[WatsonT]

33. Actually it is

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/world/europe/02evasion.html

You can blame the ubiquitous bankers all you want, but the fact remains that the greeks are not paying their fair share.

They aren't the only nation affected and they aren't being somehow targeted because they're socialist. Germany has as big of a government if not larger but they are doing fine. And it's in large part because they pay their taxes.

That's why many rank and file germans even leftists are getting pretty pissed off with the greeks. They pay their taxes and live within their means so that the greeks can cheat and enjoy their vacations. That doesn't make for good neighbors.

[No Elephants]

63. Actually, it isn't. Your source says it was a "significant" reason for the collapse, not the sole

reason.

Many books on the near global economic collapse of 2008 have been written and, yes, they do blame the bankers, among others.

The crap derivatives our country concocted affected many nations, including Greece and our own country.

ETA: "including Greece"

[WatsonT]

69. Think about what you're saying for a moment

people not paying their taxes has nothing to do with a nation failing to bring in tax revenue.

Do you think you can spend hypothetical revenue?

[No Elephants]

72. Inasmuch as I never said anything like that, I'll let the straw man think about it.

.

[WatsonT]

75. So not paying taxes does cause financial woes for a nation?

And if done to an extreme extent might cause complete economic collapse for a government?

[No Elephants]

59. What led to the most recent global economic crisis was fraud at every level of

the mortgage and securities industries, from loan originators to mortgage lenders to appraisers to mortgage bundlers to investment bankers to lawyers and accountants and bond rating companies to insurers of risk.

And what led to all that was repeal of Glass Steagall.

Tax evasion, bad as it is, was not the cause of the events of 2008.

[No Elephants]

54. As if the U.S. were all that different.

We have tax evasion at every level, from unreported or underreported tips to billionaires. And that's not even counting tax laws changed for lobbyists and their clients.

Greek debt per capita: $44 million

U.S. debt per capita: $45 million.

[FLPanhandle]

9. The EU is playing hardball: No austerity measures; no bailout.

The Germans voters make agreeing to the bailout without the austerity measures impossible. The Greeks politically can't make those austerity measures. Thus, a political impasse.

I'm beginning to think the Greeks will bail on the Euro. It would be in their long term best interests, but even more painful in the short term.

[Imajika]

11. Wrong...

"The Greeks politically can't make those austerity measures. Thus, a political impasse."

The Greeks ARE going to pass these austerity measures and everyone knows it. The Greek socialist party has the votes they need to get this package of austerity measures through. There is no impasse, and everything your seeing right now is just street theater.

[FLPanhandle]

12. Maybe.

The votes are there but it's really close and the strong reaction from the unions & protesters may sway a few. It will only take swaying a few politicians and politicians are notorious for wanting to be re-elected.

[Imajika]

13. Nah, the outcome is not really in doubt...

It's one of the reasons the market has surged the last couple days in spite of more poor economic indicators.

The Greek socialist party already has the votes to pass the "austerity" law and pretty much everyone knows it - even the Greek protestors and unions. These protests are more about street theater and letting people vent and blow off anger and frustration.

[FLPanhandle]

14. I agree the markets are the best indicators

I think default is inevitable for the Greeks even with the bailout though. IMHO, better for them to get it over with sooner than later.

[Imajika]

16. On this we fully agree...

Better to default now and deal with immense short term pain with light at the end of the tunnel, than be mired in endless "austerity" for as far as the eye can see.

Yes, eventually default will happen and in my opinion Greece will dump the Euro.

But for the moment, the current package of "austerity" measures are going to pass. Greece is going to kick the can down the road for the now, but we'll be right back in this situation in the not too distant future.

[defendandprotect]

18. Greek "socialist" party ....???

Everyone playing Newspeak?

[Imajika]

20. What is your confusion?

The party in power in Greece is PASOK (Panhellenic Socialist Movement) which is the Greek socialist party.

[defendandprotect]

36. And the "socialists" are pushing austerity?

[Imajika]

38. Yes, the socialists are pushing austerity...

Do you not understand the situation in Greece?

The socialist party is in power and it is pushing austerity.

[socialist_n_TN]

40. SINOs dnp SINOs...........

Socialists in Name Only.

[defendandprotect]

46. Thank you -- !!! And I was obviously asking because I am not that familiar

with what is happening in Greece -- !!

Thank you, again -- !!


:)

[No Elephants]

61. I doubt this thread will help you become familiar. It abounds with "truthiness."

[defendandprotect]

77. Obviously, I need to ....

not only try to understand what's happening now but be more familiar with

their history --

Unfortunately, at the moment don't have the time -- but soon!

[Imajika]

51. One can always say a socialist party isn't socialist enough...

The bottom line is it is the Greek Socialist Party (PASOK) which is pushing this "austerity". Period.

You can point to ruling and opposition socialist party's all through Europe and declare them SINO because they aren't near enough to Trotsky, Marx, Castro, Lenin or anyone else you may believe is a model socialist.

There is no getting around what happened here. The ruling left Greek Socialist Party just pushed through another round of "austerity". It was not a surprise and everything we are seeing in the streets is nothing but street theater. Anyone who thought the Greek unions and protesters would win the day and block "austerity" were sorely mistaken.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. Anybody who calls themself a "socialist" and

sides with bankers are SINOs. PERIOD. Like Strauss-Kahn. The head of the IMF is a "socialist"? SURE he is. :sarcasm:

They are bourgeoisie parties with a stake in the current system. That's not socialist.

[simonmagnus]

22. We need to move on to a Resource-based economy

The austerity measures in Greece will eventually arrive in the U.S. It is just a matter of time. If the world moved towards a resource-based economy(RBE) instead of monetary, everyone would be better off. This type of corruption by the global banking system can't flourish in a resource-based economy . With RBE, the life of every person on this planet can be vastly improved with science, technology and proper management of Earth's resources. We are all stuck in an old system that relies on the illusion of scarcity in order to control and manipulate the lives of people. It is a shame we have not passed beyond this point as we face an ever growing threat of environmental pollution and its consequences to human reproduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg

[defendandprotect]

47. We can no longer burn fossil fuels .... mining/fraking -- mountain top removal ....

elites have pounded down natural resources for profit --

while creating a dangerous situation of pollution on the planet --

and Global Warming!

What "resources" are you talking about ... ?

Even our water is being shipped out --

Right to seeds -- and vegetation free from genetic engineering --

All of this under attack and more --


Primary use of resources would be plants for medicines --

and HEMP which would help the ozone layer -- and its oil could be used in cars.

[defendandprotect]

17. Interesting post ...

Unfortunately, Americans lack the social cohesion needed to go to the streets and make a statement. The worst-hit economic victims in America are more likely to support police beating up anyone with the temerity to protest than they are to join any protest.

How do we begin to change that, I wonder ... ?

:)

[MattSh]

21. Change will come when

American hits rock bottom. When that happens, people will rise up. But by then it will be way to late to recover what was lost.

[defendandprotect]

48. Think it will come when the public begins to understand Global Warming and oil industry insanity ...

Greed and insanity so strong that they were willing to destroy the planet to continue

to exploit our natural resources!

Suicidal greed --

[No Elephants]

64. Our size and other things mitigate against us, as does some ingrained

belief that we are actually masters of our government. Or, maybe, it's just apathy.

[sulphurdunn]

19. Why not just forget

borrowing more money and reschedule the debt so as to pay it off without destroying the country? How do you borrow your way out of debt? All lending booms end in busts. The banks knew this was coming. Let them eat some of the loss. It isn't uncommon for countries facing default to reschedule their debts rather than default or beggar themselves. It's been happening since the advent of borrowing at interest.

This crisis is taking place solely because the lenders are demanding full return on investment and on schedule no matter the consequences. They don't deserve full return by passing off all of the loss to the Greek people.

[Fool Count]

37. That would be called "default" and it is exactly the thing

they are so desperately trying to avoid. Of course, the lenders want full return - that was
the goal of this whole operation. What would be the point of forcing Greece to borrow at 15%
interest, if those handsome profits could not be had? No-risk 15% annual return on investments?
Are you kidding me, they would go in, occupy the country and starve half its population to
death for this kind of money. They may need to too.

[sulphurdunn]

39. That's exactly what Argentina did in 2002

and its better off for it than it would have been otherwise. The debtor always has leverage when it doesn't have the money to pay. Greece needs to do what Argentina did: tell its creditors to work out a new repayment schedule or to fuck off and the EU be damned if it doesn't go along.

[Fool Count]

45. That is true that Argentina was able to renegotiate the

bulk of its debt at 30 to 40% of its original value and experienced a long period of sustained high economic growth afterwards.
It will be much harder for Greece to pull it off though. Argentina has had two major things working in its favor: (i) massive devaluation
of the peso making its economy competitive overnight and (ii) emergent (and still continuing) boom in world resource prices
bringing in loads of hard currency which could be converted into peso for internal investment at very favorable rates. Argentina,
unlike Greece, is one of the biggest commodity exporters in the world. Greece may be able to emulate (i) by abandoning Euro
in favor of national currency, but its main source of hard currency - tourism - will never fill its coffers as resource exports did
Argentina's. But the main, and most decisive, difference between the two countries is that Argentine's bonds were always considered
risky and were held by investors prepared to survive the loss, while the Greek debt was sold as Euro-safe to investors many of
whom were explicitly forbidden by their charters to hold junk and are ill-prepared to lose it all, such as national banks and pension funds.
Greek debt is also over twice the amount of Argentina's with Greek population being under one third of Argentina's, so per capita
each Greek owes six times as much. That alone by any reasonable measure should make Greek default a virtual inevitability.
But here comes the major risk factor which was not even a consideration with Argentina - massive amounts of derivative contracts
(i.e. credit default swaps) linked to Greece actually being in technical default. Greece's being declared to be in default will trigger
payouts on those insurance contracts in the amount very likely exceeding the debt itself, as not only bondholders insured their assets
but naked speculators bet many billions (no one know exactly how much) on Greek debt. Whether or not all those derivative contracts
could be and will be honored by all counterparties is very much doubtful. The resulting unwinding of the world financial system will
make Lehman Brothers bankruptcy of 2008 look like a junior varsity football game in comparison. So the world banker's goal (making
it the goal of world governments those bankers control) is to avoid Greece being declared in default by any means necessary. Given how
much is at stake here, I am amazed at how hard a bargain the bankers are driving against Greece. Saving the world economy from another
depression should be well worth those lousy 100 Billion Euros. It looks like greed is getting better of them as it always does. Regular
people will have to suffer the consequences as they always do.

[No Elephants]

73. Debt forgiveness is not always part of restructuring. Sometimes, it's as simple as extending the .

payments out over a longer period of time.

[No Elephants]

65. You cannot restructure debt without the lenders' consent, but nations can agree

to restructure and/or even forgive the debt of other nations and nations often have agreed to such things.

We force private lenders to do the same when the borrower declares Chapter 11 or Chapter 13 bankruptcy.

[Dover]

23. Poignantly symbolic that the country who 'invented' democracy has

found itself again, 2400 years later, in the crucible of social & governmental chaos, stirring up the sediment of corruption that has been accumulating at the bottom since the inception of the democratic experiment.

Of course, "democracy" and government FOR the PEOPLE and BY the PEOPLE was, at it root beginnings,
not quite so inclusive as it sounded. In fact the word "demokratia" is a bit ambiguous.

All citizens of Athens were required to vote on any new law that the body of 500 citizens created. One man, one vote, majority ruled. However, women, children, and slaves were not citizens, and thus could not vote. And it seems that basic exclusivity is STILL at the root of the problem. So what will we create in its stead?

A nice little article about all this "power to the people" stuff:

The Democratic Experiment

... The democratic system was not, of course, without internal critics, and when Athens had been weakened by the catastrophic Peloponnesian War (431-404) these critics got their chance to translate word into deed. In 411 and again in 404 Athenian oligarchs led counter-revolutions that replaced democracy with extreme oligarchy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/greeks/greekdemocracy_01.shtml


There is a great deal of corruption in our own system of government here in the U.S., beginning with the fundamental issue of the fallibility and corruptability of our high tech voting systems.
Add to that the money-in-politics issue which pretty much assures that the richest have the most influence, the exclusivity of a two party stranglehold, etc. Etc. ETC. and it seems our own "democratic" government only faintly resembles the representative government outlined in both our Constitution and Bill of Rights. So what now? It's one thing to tear down a broken system.
It's quite another to create and implement a new type of governance that reflects who we are now - our values, our needs, our moment in time, our vision of the future, etc.

[defendandprotect]

49. Wasn't there a strong attack on their democracy in ... 70's... 80's...

My apologies because I'm really not as familiar with Greece as I should be --

[melm00se]

24. the Greeks have riots over

taxation and the like.

We have this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8601312/San-Francisco-mulls-ban-on-all-pet-sales-including-goldfish-and-hamsters.html

[No Elephants]

66. If that were our biggest problem, I'd be dancing in the streets.

[totodeinhere]

25. The Greeks should say "fuck you" to the bankers and bond holders, refuse to adopt

those so-called austerity measures, and just go ahead and default. What would the bankers able to do about it other than have a hissy fit?

Of course we know that won't happen. The Greek government will kiss the banker's asses while the average citizen suffers.

[CJvR]

28. Well for one...

...they would not give Greece any more credit, that means the Greek goverment will run out of money and wont be able to pay out salaries, pensions, wellfare payments etc... So then it can either ration out what it got (which will be far harsher than any austerity program) effectively an internal devaluation - or it can reduce the expenses until the income can pay for them, reducing the states payroll.

There really isn't an easy way out of this, either cut expenses or start paying taxes.

[gmpierce]

43. That's the theory

When Iceland told the bankers to do something obscene with a rolling donut, everyone talked about the dire effects on credit they could expect.

Two days after Iceland refused the bankers demands, the (other?) bankers were back with new offers of credit. To their credit, the Icelanders told the bankers to f*ck off.

[plumbob]

44. Well said and correct procedure to follow with predatory lenders.

I wouldn't walk into a bank at less than gunpoint.

[CJvR]

50. Iceland was a bit different.

It wasn't the Icelandic state itself that caused the crisis (more than indirectly through poor supervision) it was the Icelandic banks that blew up - which technically was guaranteed by the Icelandic state. Appart from the banking meltdown the Icelandic economy and state finances were relatively healthy. In Greece it is the state itself that is crashing, that is much worse

[ellenrr]

27. Does anyone know a source of live coverage of Greece online? thanks. n/t

[arikara]

30. Whenever those "youths" wearing masks

come out and start wrecking things in a demonstration, my first thought is provocateurs.

[No Elephants]

74. Good point. Wouldn't be the first time.

[Hotler]

58. Fuck the Bankers. Power to the workers. eom.

[defendandprotect]

79. kr