(50) Tanks and planes hit Libya rebels ("they tore Zawiya down to ashes" - source tells BBC)

[Turborama]

Source: BBC

March 08 2011 Last updated at 17:02 GMT

Pro-Gaddafi forces have launched a fierce attack on Libyan rebels in Zawiya, sources in the town say.

Casualties were reported as 50 tanks and 120 pick-up trucks launched three attacks on the rebel-held town 50km (30 miles) west of the capital, Tripoli.

"I don't know how many are dead - they tore Zawiya down to ashes," a source in the town told the BBC.

Elsewhere, warplanes fired missiles on residential areas and near rebel positions in the oil port of Ras Lanuf.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12673956

[Vinee]

1. Why isn't Egypt helping? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Russia? Turkey?

[David__77]

2. Helping who? They may have their own insurrections to deal with.

Not so much Russia, but the rest of them, yes.

[Vinee]

19. follow the money. just sayin' nt

[Turborama]

3. Gaddafi forces hammer rebels on two fronts

05:14 AEST Wed Mar 9 2011

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi have hammered rebels with rocket barrages and airstrikes, trying to check their advance out of the opposition-held east of Libya toward the capital Tripoli.

=snip=

On another front, government forces were reportedly battering down resistance in the closest rebel-held city to Tripoli, Zawiya.

A government official claimed Gaddafi loyalists had recaptured the city, but some residents reported that rebels still held the city's main square amid a heavy barrage of residential areas.

The city was sealed off and phone lines have been cut, making it impossible to verify the account.

Full article: http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8221375/gaddafi-forces-hammer-rebels-on-two-fronts

[pampango]

4. Tanks and planes hit Libya rebels

Source: BBC

Pro-Gaddafi forces have launched a fierce attack on Libyan rebels in Zawiya, sources in the town say. Casualties were reported as 50 tanks and 120 pick-up trucks launched three attacks on the rebel-held town 50km (30 miles) west of the capital, Tripoli. "I don't know how many are dead - they tore Zawiya down to ashes," a source in the town told the BBC.

Elsewhere, warplanes fired missiles on residential areas and near rebel positions in the oil port of Ras Lanuf.

On Tuesday, using air strikes, helicopter gunships and heavy armaments, they pushed back a rebel advance along the north coast, and more accurate attacks than had been seen previously seemed aimed at dislodging opposition fighters from a crossroads outside Ras Lanuf. Under these circumstances, it is difficult to see how the Gaddafi regime would be in any mood to compromise or talk about succession, our correspondent says.

A Libyan foreign ministry official described as "absolute nonsense" reports that Col Gaddafi had offered to stand down, Reuters reports. The rebels believe the approaches are merely an attempt to divide the Gaddafi opponents.

\
Pro-Gaddafi forces used air strikes, helicopter gunships and heavy armaments in the offensives

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12673956

[wtmusic]

5. Heaven forbid we should help take down an architect of Lockerbie

by calling for a no-fly zone in the UNSC. And maybe saving a hundred thousand lives in the process.

[Vinee]

6. you want to get embroiled in a third middle eastern war?

no thanks.

[David__77]

9. There are many who do... fortunately as this thing goes on, people are coming around.

The longer the thing goes on, we see a civil conflict between two sides. One led by Gaddafi, one led by a man who in his cabinet until a few weeks ago. The deaths have largely been limited to armed actors in the conflict. I am not assessing the moral righteousness of either side here, but I think that most people who opposed the war in Iraq are sufficiently wary to oppose opening yet another war front, particularly when this is a civil conflict among the Libyan peoples.

[Vinee]

12. As bas as things are right now, I think entangling ourselves in this mess has the potential

to make things much worse for us. I don't like Gaddafi but I don't like prolonged instability in the middle east either. What serves American interests here is to bring about middle eastern stability. We must choose the time, place, and manner of our battles, not our enemies.

[joshcryer]

17. I think it's bad from a PR standpoint because people like David would call it "imperialism."

People like David don't really kill that innocent, unarmed, civilians are being massacred as long as "anti-imperialist tyrants" are in charge.

[David__77]

24. So if you don't advocate military action to stop something, you "advocate" it?

Really?

I have not advocated US military intervention in many cases, regardless of the nominal politics of the state in question. Our national defense and foreign policy should be about bringing about peace, economic growth, national sovereignty, and non-interference in other countries' internal affairs. I would not have advocated intervention in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc.

It doesn't mean that the US should not take other actions to support just causes and struggles, including those of the Libyan people. Your accusations are completely off base.

[joshcryer]

29. So you wouldn't call US intervention "imperialism"?

I don't believe that for a second.

[David__77]

33. Imperialism isn't an action, it's a system.

The US supporting Gaddafi has been part of a package of imperialist policies, directed through international financial institutions, for instance.

So what do I advocate? Diplomatic relations, normal trade relations with various states. Criticism of violations of people's rights: women's rights, labor rights, minority rights, etc. These can be backed up with revocation of normal trade relations.

[joshcryer]

47. Like Cuba?

[David__77]

48. Huh?

I have a mixed assessment of the place from what I know. It's not a model to me, and has its leadership to blame for severe contraction of GDP since 1989 - slavishness to Soviet imperialism prior to that time and becoming a basically one-commodity economy. Cuba is still overly-militarized, bloated with bureaucracy, and riven with chauvinism. Hopefully they set things right.

I do think the US should establish diplomatic relations with Cuba, yes. And I think that US citizens should be allowed to travel there.

[joshcryer]

14. Bullshit, most of the deaths have been civilians. Utter untruths.

[David__77]

7. Yes, we could save a bizillion lives!

Seriously, have even 2,000 died in a few weeks of conflict? I am not saying that these deaths - all of them - are not tragic. But where is the 100,000 figure coming from? And how do you know that a no-fly zone, so-called, would save them? The Tripoli authorities could still defend their state with many means.

[Vinee]

8. did you hear, Charlie Sheen got fired from 2 1/2 men? nt

[wtmusic]

10. All good questions.

Who knows? IMO the tide has turned since Ghadafi took to the air, and the situation is ripe for a massacre of Stalinesque proportion.

We should be prepared to respond to it.

[David__77]

13. I don't know... hmm

It seems like the Tripoli authorities have a strategy (whether they like it or not) to limit deaths presently to those engaged in military activities. It could be that they are having difficulty executing any other strategy. But the terrible thing about revolutions and civil wars is that death and violence are part of the path. From India to Colombia, presently there are armed conflicts for power occurring, but they do not captivate the imagines of the West.

For the US to intervene on behalf of an insurrectionist force would be an extension of the old "regime change" philosophy that progressives so adamantly rejected back under Bush. Now, Obama is rejecting it in practice, but some are unhappy. I think Obama IS being decisive. The US always says "all options are on the table," but he has rejected getting caught up in discussion of military intervention, including "no fly zone." The people on the US don't want it either, and would not look kindly on getting embroiled in a civil war they do not understand.

[joshcryer]

16. That's why they killed more unarmed protesters just today.

What is with your garbage propaganda.

[David__77]

21. You're full of one-liners.

And you make all sorts of baseless accusations against me personally. It is without foundation. You're being as bad as the right-wingers who called anti-Iraq war protesters "pro-Saddam."

[joshcryer]

28. I don't recall anti-Iraq war protesters saying Saddam didn't kill his own people.

They were against the war because it was illegitimate and because it was going to last a long time and many tens of thousands of people would die. The US is respecting the wishes of the revolutionaries in Libya and it is insulting to believe that the revolution would be sullied by a couple of air strikes and a no fly zone.

[David__77]

30. Of course the Gaddafi government has killed a lot of people.

And a lot in the present context, as well as over the decades. And if you believe that US military intervention wouldn't indeed sully things, I believe you are wrong.

[aquart]

20. That's why we're part of the UN and other alliances.

Enforcing a no-fly zone can be done with international cooperation. The rebels don't want us on the ground, they want safety from the air. We can do that much with the aid of our many allies in the region and elsewhere.

We didn't go into Bosnia alone. It is in the interest of many nations, not just ours, to see that this war ends as well as possible and with Gaddafi gone. Doing a favor for the guys who are going to control the oil is a good idea.

Gadaffi is old and nutty. He won't be able to hold power for long and his sons not at all. Libya is a tribal nation and the tribal alliance that kept Gaddafi in power is largely dissolved. His good will is useless to us now. We need the good will of the rebels.

[Robbien]

18. Usually more civilians die when the US goes a'bombing

Civilian casualty account would be much much higher once our bombers get into the mix. The US is over in Afghanistan right now trying to pretend it is sorry that the only people harmed were nine children who died from our most recent bomb drop over there.

[joshcryer]

25. I don't support ground troops.

But I won't cry and bitch if murderers die in their tanks and their runways are demolished and they're unable to fly around bombing the shit out of innocent protesters.

[joshcryer]

15. Ugh, disgusting.

Assuming a low number like 2000 it's still 150 fucking people being killed a day.

What is it going to hurt to bomb their fucking runways and target a bunch of their tanks while they're sleeping? Huh?

[David__77]

22. I guess not everyone is on the war train.

You're free to climb aboard, but plenty of people won't be joining you. I support President Obama on this one.

[joshcryer]

23. I support the decisions made so far, but I am not going to cry if airstrikes happen...

...on airport runways and the tanks that they're using to grind down entire cities. Sorry, but I won't weep for the tank drivers who murder innocent civilians. I doubt it'll happen though.

[David__77]

26. Well...

Then why on earth the venom directed at me? I do not support Gaddafi. I really don't get it.

[joshcryer]

27. Because of ths misinformation about Gaddafi forces "minimizing deaths."

You didn't see the video of Az Zawiyah civilians bleeding to death from gunshot wounds. Oh now they're all military rebels. Total hogwash dishonesty.

Tens of thousands of civilians were protesting peacefully, when the tanks came they ran because they knew what would happen, every single one of them ran, you can't take a tank out with a gun if you had one. It was a fucking slaughter.

Yes this pisses me off.

[David__77]

31. Well I'll do more investigation.

That's part of the reason I'm here, because I want to access information, especially non-editorialized, raw data/footage. It wouldn't change my view on US military intervention. I did not support it in Kosovo/Yugoslavia, and I wouldn't support it now unless US national defenses were endangered. In the future, the US needs to stop propping up leaders like Gaddafi and treat other countries with respect as partners and maybe we can avoid these dilemmas.

[joshcryer]

32. Here is Alex Crawfords report, while the rest of the media was sitting sipping tea in Tripoli...

...he was being fired upon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZKX9UW_Ims

[joshcryer]

34. Sorry, this is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFYMngxxTCc

Watch what happens to the protesters.

[joshcryer]

35. Note the lack of guns. The lack of drugged terrorists.

[Major Hogwash]

38. Good info, josh.

I didn't see much of that being reported this morning.

[reorg]

40. I noticed quite a few guns

I noticed a guy with a gun at 1:08, the reporter states that the insurgents "have their own firepower" and we see shots being fired at 1:48, and in the "long version" of the video we see a lot of guys carrying heavy guns and ammunition (starting at 4:44, again at 5:25). At 6:37 someone proudly declares "we killed four people". The reporter states that "the battle" (armed violence from both sides) "lasted for three hours". I also noticed the lack of air attacks and any sign of bombings.

[joshcryer]

44. I was referring specifically to the protest where people were shot and killed.

The rebels are fewer than the protesters, by a large margin. They come in and fight back whenever they get a chance, but the protesters are always leading the charge in every one of these situations.

[reorg]

49. I know, and I mentioned

that a guy (directly in front of the camera) at 1:08 has a gun in his hands: this is before the protesters are fired at. Also, when the heavy gun of the "protesters" starts firing, a lot of un-armed civilians are running around. You are making it out as if these were two different groups, that's obviously not the case. A protester right at the beginning complains they haven't got enough guns.

This situation is very different from what we saw in Egypt and Tunisia. It is not about peaceful demonstrations and passive resistance, these insurgents kill and they are proud of it. The Iranian propaganda channel Press TV is full-heartedly supporting them, BTW, perhaps because they are constantly praising Allah.

[joshcryer]

50. Fair enough, but I don't think they have enough guns to arm all the protesters...

...if they could. But no doubt every time a protester gets killed it only enrages them further. I don't like the implication of "Praising Allah" though.

[joshcryer]

46. BTW, the news media hasn't always painted a magical rosy picture of the armed rebels.

Here's an aamzing editorial: http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/07/ras.lanuf.libya.wedeman/

Morale is high, and so are the troops. :rofl:

[David__77]

42. Thanks.

Were they crossing a bridge to go somewhere? Any more background?

[joshcryer]

45. As far as I understand they were being brave and walking toward the tyrants.

The tyrants then decided to shoot unarmed protesters.

[reorg]

52. could be, or maybe not

it is impossible to make that assessment based on this video. We don't know who fired the first shot, the protesters were not unarmed and no doubt they vastly outnumbered the military.

Until now there hasn't been any documented incident or believable claim that suggests a level of violence by the military that comes close to what the US has been doing for years in Afghanistan and did for some time in Iraq. We all saw those videos, I guess.

[Turborama]

53. Thanks for that report, Josh

Here's the longer version they linked to as a video response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkaAXDTLhsw

[Baclava]

11. "50 tanks and 120 pick-up trucks launched three attacks "

So would we be blowing up tanks and pick-up trucks now too?

Sounds like war to me.

[no limit]

36. Anyone else see the advertisement on the right of the post that advertises an investing opportunity

off this crisis? I'm surprised Google allowed that crap.

[inwiththenew]

37. To everyone who is calling for the US to enforce a no fly zone

What will be your response if we do and in the course of taking out anti-aircraft defense we kill women and children? Too bad, so sad?

[wtmusic]

39. Do you think tearing "Zawiya down to ashes" killed any women/children? nt

[Turborama]

51. The Guardian: Witnesses tell of women and children being killed in huge assault

Gaddafi deploys tanks and hundreds of troops in all-out effort to take Zawiyah
Witnesses tell of women and children being killed in huge assault on refinery town held by rebels for past two weeks

Peter Beaumont in Tripoli
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday March 08 2011 18.18 GMT

The regime of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has launched a devastating assault on the opposition-held town of Zawiyah, deploying up to 50 tanks and scores of pickup trucks carrying troops.

Emerging accounts told of massive damage inflicted on the refinery town, which rose up against the Gaddafi regime two weeks ago.

=snip=

The Gaddafi regime has cut all mobile and landline communications with the town and accounts of today's fighting came from witnesses who had driven out of the combat area and one who had climbed on a roof to find a phone signal.

Residents described a hail of bullets, with women and children being killed and families trapped within their homes.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/08/gaddafi-forces-devastating-attack-on-zawiyah

[karynnj]

43. What about using drones to make airfields unusable?

This could be done in the middle of the night when no one is on the air fields.

That was one possible alternative listed by Senator Kerry IF the international committee saw that Gaddaffi was massacring large numbers of innocent people.

My guess is that in addition to be a real possibility, the idea is that just as telling high level officers to consider that they could be prosecuted for war crimes if they engage in them with Gadaffi, this position is mentioned because it could play into gadaffi's calculations and might prevent this - though if this report is accurate, it sounds like it didn't.

[hardtravelin]

41. I've been at war too long, lost too many friends...enough

We've had enough.

[wtmusic]

54. "Tell the United States to help...please...Ghadafi kill everyone here."

This is going to get very ugly, and soon.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x560932