Another officer shot to death in St. Pete

[Sancho]

Source: St. Petersburg Times

ST. PETERSBURG — Veteran St. Petersburg police officer David S. Crawford was shot and killed Monday as he and another officer investigated a report of a prowler at a downtown residence.

Crawford's killing came one month after two St. Petersburg police officers were shot dead in the line of duty — the first police officers killed in the city in 31 years.

A massive manhunt was underway for the killer Tuesday morning, with several downtown blocks closed and police checking cars coming and going...

About 10:30 p.m., Crawford, 46, and officer Donald J. Ziglar, 41, went to the 700 block of 3rd Ave. S to investigate a report of a suspicious person. Ziglar arrived at 10:34 p.m. and Crawford arrived a few seconds later.

Read more: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/st-pete-police-officer-shot-near-downtown/1153052

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This is close to where I work. Two other officers were shot and killed recently.

Sorry gun folks, I think it's time to license and permit all guns and ammo. Maybe after a few years of strict control we can get some of these guns off the street.

Pray for the families.

[Kolesar]

1. The answers you are going to get are more "internet folks" than "gun folks"

People in chairs with anonymity and endless time to rewrite the same thing repeatedly.

[nalnn]

24. +1

[xchrom]

2. recommend

[JCMach1]

3. How's rebulding FL going Gov. Scott?

[Possumpoint]

4. Won't Work

DC had an absolute ban on gun ownership and became known as murder capital USA. Would require a complete ban across the board for the whole country and we know how far that would get.

[Sancho]

5. I'm not going to rehash the arguments - that's my opinion

and I grew up on military bases, hunting, a member of NRA, etc....

Here in Florida it's too easy to get guns with no purpose except killing cops, crime, and fighting it out with other gangs. I think we're proving that this year.

It's also too easy for obviously ill people, criminals, or temporarily emotional people to get weapon they want easily.

Whether it's an depressed person shooting their kids or teenagers killing cops, or whatever - it makes no sense for guns to be as available as bubble gum.

Regulations for the whole country would be fine with me - and it would take years to see a difference. If you are a safe and responsible person you can have your gun.

I'm tired of ducking the bullets over the school yard.

I'm posting what happened in St. Pete today - and everyone is free to think what they will. I doubt I'll change your mind, but in my case I've done a 180 since living in the middle of the mayhem.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

6. They are not "as available as bubble gum"

I think your need to use sensationalism and hyperbole is extremely telling as to the validity of your side's arguments.
Now if you want to discuss viewpoints on ACTUAL merit and truthfulness, be my guest.

whatever.

[Sancho]

13. Yes they are here!!!

I know a neighborhood teen here who bought a handgun at a gun show when he was 15 (by one month).

No one does background checks.

It's harder to get past the bouncer checking ID's than to buy a gun in Florida.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

16. Your statements....

"and I grew up on military bases, hunting, a member of NRA, etc..."
And that has what to with your misrepresentation of firearms in florida? I guess if I was a member of a union once that gives me the privilege to misrepresent them in opposition. :eyes:

"as available as bubble gum"
You can get new bubblegum at grocery stores, gas stations, rest stops, newspaper stands, ... etc. The ONLY place to get a new gun is from a valid FFL. Now, used guns can be sold by citizens to each other, but even then I know I can find used chewing gum MUCH more easily than used firearms (most of the time the used gum is even FREE). I can find tons of it on the sidewalk, under desks, and sometimes even on my shoe. Used guns?... hardly that ubiquitous.

"guns with no purpose except killing cops, crime, and fighting it out with other gangs"
Well, i've been trap shooting in florida and it was a lot of fun. I also hear about alot of self-defense with firearms in florida. Seems like there are plenty of legitimate uses for owning firearms in florida. Sounds like your problem is really gang/criminal control... not gun control.

"ducking the bullets over the school yard"
Really? REALLY!!?? I doubt you are ducking from bullets which are actually flying over your head in a schoolyard. In fact, such a scenario in the US (gunfire volley over playgrounds) would be plastered all over news networks. What incidents are you referring to? I mean, you made such an ascertation... surely you can cite some evidence.

"since living in the middle of the mayhem"
In case you haven't noticed, violent crime and gun deaths have been in consistent decline for quite some time despite the fact that proliferation of firearms has simultaneously occurred. Do you care to comment on how such trends in America constitute "mayhem"?


Hyperbole? Sensationalism? Logical Fallacies?
Yup.
Yup.
Yup.

[Sancho]

19. turns out I was right...the kid who did it was 16!

and had a juvenile record...at gun shows here they don't really check backgrounds. And if you read Freakonomics you'd know that the crime rate statistics have more to do with other factors than gun control...

There is still no reason for guns to be so easy for the irresponsible to get. You are welcome to have guns - but letting just anyone have easy access to guns is a problem.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1153084.ece

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

23. i do agree, actually...

"You are welcome to have guns - but letting just anyone have easy access to guns is a problem. "

I agree 100%.

However the problem lies in legislation and bureaucratic solutions. In america, everyone doesn't have access to guns... legally. Was this 16 year old's access to guns legal? No. He probably broke 3-4 laws doing what he did. The person that sold it to him probably broke a few laws as well. I don't think the solution is more laws... then all you end up is the same ill effects and more laws broken. Hardely helpful. People intent on doing something won't care about words in the lawbooks. And then, we end up with cases where most or all of these intermediate gun offenses are plea bargained away before the trial. Not only do the multitude of petty gun laws hamper people who wish to obey the law... they pretty much don't even target criminal when they are caught! They get thrown away! x(

We HAVE the laws on the books that need to be there to ensure responsible people have guns. They already exist in excess. Anything harmful to society that can be done with a firearm is ALREADY illegal one way or another. I think we need to step up ENFORCEMENT and give cops the tools they need to more strictly enforce the laws and courts the power to more severely punish crimes committed with guns.

[Sancho]

22. The 16 year old lived where an 8 year old was shot recently

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article990254.ece

She was in her apartment and hit by stray bullets.

[bossy22]

7. no purpose except killing cops and gang fights?

i have never seen a gun that fits that description. This is because a gun that can be used to stop an intruder can also be used to kill a police officer or a gang member. Why? Simple- ALL THREE ARE HUMAN.

[starroute]

10. I think you misread the post you're responding to

It doesn't say guns have no purpose except killing cops and gang fights. It says, "It's too easy to get guns with no purpose except..."

The "no purpose" doesn't describe the guns -- it describes the people buying the guns. And it says it's far too easy for people who have no honest reason to own a gun to get one.

[Daemonaquila]

8. I'm sorry you fell into the "guns are the problem" paradigm.

Guns have never been the problem, and aren't now. They're just a tool like a hammer. Even if the retail market for guns is restricted, the street market will be hopping. Even if you managed to cut down significantly on the total number of guns running around, the same people would be killing each other with homemade guns, crossbows, knives, bats, molotov cocktails, homemade explosive devices, cars, etc. The problem always has been, is, and always will be the things that drive people to crime and violence.

I lived for 10 years in a neighborhood I loved - which was also one of the most violent neighborhoods in my city. We fought the dealers and the pimps, and any variety of other street crime. During the height, we woke to screams as a woman stabbed her lover to death in the next alley. On a Saturday afternoon, two cars on a main thoroughfare had a shootout, killing one driver and seriously wounding another. We had shootings in the park, beatings everywhere. Houses burned. The kids too young and too poor to get guns were knifing each other at the Cinco de Mayo street fair, and running away in groups; one of the weapons was dumped behind a neighbor's fence. There was no end to the methods of violence. Guns? They were perhaps the loudest and most feared weapons, but overall they killed and injured the least people.

My own weapons of choice that I kept near my bed were my knives and Louisville Slugger. I never had to use them, but it was a close thing. For a while, I borrowed a friend's gun because my son was being threatened and was afraid someone would break into the house. I didn't take it all that seriously since I had also been threatened repeatedly by some of the pimps I'd been conducting a war against - and at their "heart" they're a bunch of chickens**ts - but just in case he was right I figured that a gun was better protection at 2 AM if I couldn't get out of the house or get in close enough range to do some good with my weapons of choice.

So, I've lived in the middle of mayhem - and I'm tired of people getting worked up about guns rather than a hundred other things that CAUSE the toxic mix where people use violence on each other. I'm tired of people calling for gun control when a cop is killed, but not screaming that police actively drive crime from one neighborhood into another, then refuse to answer call after frantic call. You want bullets to stop flying in the school yard? There are ways do do it. My neighborhood did it. Removing guns is a silly distraction, not a solution.

[Sancho]

12. Guns are not a problem - easy access is a problem!

so you misunderstand. No one ever said removing guns! If you are a safe and responsible person - shoot away, hunt, and own what you want!

That's why the over reaction is always the case with gun advocates.

OTOH, my wife took a gun off of a 2nd grader! Guns are in the hands of unqualified, emotionally ill, criminals, etc.

Just like anything else, there's a point of responsibility.

All our killings here are by people with powerful weapons and no rational person thinks those folks should have been armed, but they were.

So if you don't get it, that's too bad.

[Left_Is_Right]

9. just how easy is it to get a gun in FL?

I'm a gun owner. I also have a concealed carry permit. I am however NOT a member of the NRA nor am I a FL resident so I don't know about the FL gun laws. That being said, I believe there are a few "universal" understandings that one should remember when discussing gun control;

1. gun control means using both hands
2. when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns
3. guns don't kill people, people kill people

I am a STRONG advocate of gun control. I do believe that the Constitution does provide that everyone has a right to keep and bear arms, BUT I also believe that some restrictions should ALWAYS apply. Criminals, mentally unstable, non US citizens are just three examples of who I believe should NOT be allowed to own or possess a gun in the US. I believe that strict and thorough background investigations should be performed for EVERY gun sale OR transfer of ownership. I also believe that the mental stability should be taken into account which would require limited/restricted access to mental health records. I know this may cause other issues and will be problematic, however, if we are to curb the violence by "crazies" it will have to happen.

I remember a few yrs ago I think I read that there was a county in FL that mandated ownership of a firearm. I also believe that statistically, the crime rate in that county dropped dramatically.

The primary problem is I believe, how someone can get a gun. Gun shows are I believe the main culprit. No one should be allowed to obtain a gun INSTANTLY at a gun show. I also believe that EVERY gun acquisition should require a background check and registration. No law abiding gun owner is against registration. We're not afraid that "they're coming to take our guns away". That's just emotional BS ginned up by people with an agenda. NO ONE IS GOING TO TAKE AWAY THE RIGHT TO OWN/POSSESS FIREARMS BY LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. To think so is ludicrous.

I believe that ALL related gun laws on the books should be reviewed for effectiveness and enforceability. I believe those laws that pass muster should be enforced vigorously. I also believe that those who commit a crime while in possession of a gun i.e murder, robbery, intimidation, etc should be sent to jail for a min of 10 yrs and a max of life...or in the case of murder...given the death penalty.

I repeat, it's my opinion that NO law abiding gun owner is opposed to gun control. They are however opposed to stupidity.


Lefty

[Left_Is_Right]

11. PS

I also believe that yes, if you're a law abiding citizen, you should be able to carry your firearm in most public places. But, I also believe that carrying it to a political rally is pure stupidity, serves no purpose except to intimidate (if its not concealed) and could result in reckless endangerment to the public.

Lefty

[WatsonT]

14. And what do you recommend to end all police related shootings?

Presumably they're trained and licensed to carry a firearm. We can't disarm them. And yet it happens too frequently.

[WatsonT]

15. And as you can plainly see

Gun ownership and homicide rates do not correlate at all:



I should say: they do not correlate positively.

And if we were to look at it internationally we get the same results:



No correlation.

[Liberal_in_LA]

17. lots of cops shot recently. RIP

[hack89]

18. Because we know criminals will be first in line to register their guns! nt

[RantinRavin]

20. Suspect arrested in slaying of St. Petersburg police Officer David Crawford

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/16-year-old-suspect-arrested-in-slaying-of-st-petersburg-police-officer/1153084

The largest manhunt in city history ended Tuesday night when police arrested a 16-year-old who they say shot and killed a veteran officer the night before.

Nicholas Lemmon Lindsey was taken into custody about 6 p.m. after a number of tips from the community led investigators to him. The arrest was announced about 24 hours after Officer David Crawford was shot and killed downtown after responding to a call of a prowler in the area.

Police Chief Chuck Harmon said Lindsey at first gave inconsistent stories about his encounter with Crawford, then after two hours of questioning, admitted shooting the officer. The boy was remorseful and cried, Harmon said.

The chief said the teen's parents encouraged him to cooperate with police.

[goforit]

21. Rick Scott gonna cut back, eh? Crime will be up 300%