Cnn Reports broadcast "Videos raise questions on troops conduct"

[NMDemDist2]

by killing wounded Iraqi's while they are down. They are also reporting that as Sadr is in control of Najaf (sp?) and busing in supporters from Sadr City to fight the Americans

edit for accuracy

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. it's illegal to shoot wounded soldiers?

since when?

[ender]

2. since the geneva conventions.

geez...

[benfranklin1776]

13. Precisely right

Convention (I) for the Amelioration of the Condition of the
Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field, August 12,
1949



CHAPTER II

Wounded and Sick

Art. 12. Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article,
who are wounded or sick, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.

They shall be treated humanely and cared for by the Party to the conflict in whose power they
may be, without any adverse distinction founded on sex, race, nationality, religion, political
opinions, or any other similar criteria. Any attempts upon their lives, or violence to their persons,
shall be strictly prohibited; in particular, they shall not be murdered or exterminated, subjected to
torture or to biological experiments; they shall not wilfully be left without medical assistance and
care, nor shall conditions exposing them to contagion or infection be created.

Only urgent medical reasons will authorize priority in the order of treatment to be administered.

Women shall be treated with all consideration due to their sex. The Party to the conflict which is
compelled to abandon wounded or sick to the enemy shall, as far as military considerations permit,
leave with them a part of its medical personnel and material to assist in their care.

Art. 13. The present Convention shall apply to the wounded and sick belonging to the following
categories:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or
volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. (2) Members of other militias and members of
other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to
the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied,
provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements,
fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his
subordinates; (b)that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying
arms openly; (d)that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a Government or an authority not
recognized by the Detaining Power. (4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually
being members thereof, such as civil members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents,
supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed
forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany.
(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the
crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable
treatment under any other provisions in international law. (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied
territory, who on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading
forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry
arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Art. 14. Subject to the provisions of Article 12, the wounded and sick of a belligerent who fall
into enemy hands shall be prisoners of war, and the provisions of international law concerning
prisoners of war shall apply to them.

Art. 15. At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without
delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them
against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent
their being despoiled.

* * * * * *

Art. 50. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the
following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing,
torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or
serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not
justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva05.htm

[louis-t]

64. Geneva Convention? * don't need no stinkin' convention.

He's pulled us out of several major treaties. Geneva Conventions are next. Scumbag.

[NMDemDist2]

4. "hors de combat" or out of battle makes them no longer a threat

so they shouldn't be shot dead when they are down.

[THUNDER HANDS]

10. but do the Geneva conventions apply in this case?

Since technically we:
(a) aren't at war
(b) aren't fighting the soliders of another nation
(c) are fighting partially with paid mercinaries

I'm just wondering if the geneva convention rules apply at all?

[NMDemDist2]

16. i think the rules apply here

Art. 13. The present Convention shall apply to the wounded and sick belonging to the following
categories:

volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. (2) Members of other militias and members of
other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to
the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied,
provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements,
fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his
subordinates; (b)that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying
arms openly;

[northernsoul]

19. The army actually has their own internal rules of conduct

that would apply to this situation as well as the applicable international laws. IIRC, the Geneva Convention applies any time the military force of at least one signatory nation-state are involved in armed conflict.

Maybe someone with greater military experience than mine can clarify - but aren't soldiers who "dispatch" oppositional combatants hors de combat going to be liable for internal court-martial if nothing else? (not that that's going to happen under the current regime)

[Mattforclark]

20. Yes

Since technically we:

(a) aren't at war

- If you had to be "technically" at war, the Geneva convention would hardly ever apply to anything. You don't. You have to be engaged in "armed conflict."

(b) aren't fighting the soliders of another nation

- That doesn't matter. We are fighting a guerrilla opponent. In 1978 IIRC the Geneva Convention was updated to include guerrilla war.

(c) are fighting partially with paid mercinaries

- That affects only how any mercenaries can legally be treated, not how we can legally treat our enemies.

[mike_c]

24. if the GC for protecting wounded soldiers don't apply...

...because they're not "real soldiers" then the GC for respecting the rights of the civilian populations apply. Can't have it both ways. Of course, the invasiona and occupation of Iraq is illegal anyway, making the issue somewhat a matter of adding insult to injury. All of the participants are war criminals by definition.

[K8-EEE]

32. Even If They Don't Apply

OK let's say it's "not a war" (oh brother) then under what civilian law can you shoot wounded people? Is that "self defense" or what.

[LibInternationalist]

36. The Geneva conventions

apply to all parties in all armed conflicts

[Macadian]

33. Wait a minute.... Didn't John Kerry shoot a wounded Vietcong?

I thought part of this story was that the Vietcong fired on Kerry's boat and then was hit by return gunfire. Supposedly when the guy ran back in the brush, Kerry beached the boat, jumped off and chased him down to 'finish him off'.

I'm almost sure that's the account, or close to it. Someone set me straight.

Are you guys saying that Kerry violated Geneva convention. That point was never mentioned in the articles I read.

[NMDemDist2]

34. when they are running away and still armed it's a bit different

than when they are laying on the ground seriously wounded

[htuttle]

Oh, you think you're soooooo smart....

The Vietcong that Kerry shot had a rocket launcher, and was preparing to fire it at his landing craft.

The details are in his Silver Star report. Read it.

[Macadian]

54. Post a link....

I would like to read the official account and not rely on the mainstream press.

[w4rma]

73. From Snopes

…
Kerry earned his Silver Star on 28 February 1969, when he beached his craft and jumped off it with an M-16 rifle in hand to chase and shoot a guerrilla who was running into position to launch a B-40 rocket at Kerry's boat. Contrary to the account quoted above, Kerry did not shoot a "Charlie" who had "fired at the boat and missed," whose "rocket launcher was empty," and who was "already dead or dying" after being "knocked down with a .50 caliber round." Kerry's boat had been hit by a rocket fired by someone else — the guerrilla in question was still armed with a live B-40 and had only been clipped in the leg; when the guerrilla got up to run, Kerry assumed he was getting into position to launch a rocket and shot him:

On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry's boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft's bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.

An enemy was just feet away, holding a weapon with enough firepower to blow up the boat. Kerry's forward gunner, Belodeau, shot and clipped the Viet Cong in the leg. Then Belodeau's gun jammed, according to other crewmates (Belodeau died in 1997). Medeiros tried to fire at the Viet Cong, but he couldn't get a shot off.

In an interview, Kerry added a chilling detail.

"This guy could have dispatched us in a second, but for . . . I'll never be able to explain, we were literally face to face, he with his B-40 rocket and us in our boat, and he didn't pull the trigger. I would not be here today talking to you if he had," Kerry recalled. "And Tommy clipped him, and he started going I thought it was over."

Instead, the guerrilla got up and started running. "We've got to get him, make sure he doesn't get behind the hut, and then we're in trouble," Kerry recalled.

So Kerry shot and killed the guerrilla. "I don't have a second's question about that, nor does anybody who was with me," he said. "He was running away with a live B-40, and, I thought, poised to turn around and fire it." Asked whether that meant Kerry shot the guerrilla in the back, Kerry said, "No, absolutely not. He was hurt, other guys were shooting from back, side, back. There is no, there is not a scintilla of question in any person's mind who was there this guy was dangerous, he was a combatant, he had an armed weapon."

Another member of the crew confirmed Kerry's account for the Boston Globe and expressed no doubt that Kerry's action had saved both the boat and its crew:

The crewman with the best view of the action was Frederic Short, the man in the tub operating the twin guns. Short had not talked to Kerry for 34 years, until after he was recently contacted by a Globe reporter. Kerry said he had "totally forgotten" Short was on board that day.

Short had joined Kerry's crew just two weeks earlier, as a last-minute replacement, and he was as green as the Arkansas grass of his home. He said he didn't realize that he should have carried an M-16 rifle, figuring the tub's machine guns would be enough. But as Kerry stood face to face with the guerrilla carrying the rocket, Short realized his predicament. With the boat beached and the bow tilted up, a guard rail prevented him from taking aim at the enemy. For a terrifying moment, the guerrilla looked straight at Short with the rocket.

Short believes the guerrilla didn't fire because he was too close and needed to be a suitable distance to hit the boat squarely and avoid ricochet debris. Short tried to protect his skipper.

"I laid in fire with the twin .50s, and he got behind a hootch," recalled Short. "I laid 50 rounds in there, and Mr. Kerry went in. Rounds were coming everywhere. We were getting fire from both sides of the river. It was a canal. We were receiving fire from the opposite bank, also, and there was no way I could bring my guns to bear on that."

Short said there is "no doubt" that Kerry saved the boat and crew. "That was a him-or-us thing, that was a loaded weapon with a shape charge on it . . . It could pierce a tank. I wouldn't have been here talking to you. I probably prayed more up that creek than a Southern Baptist church does in a month."

Charles Gibson, who served on Kerry's boat that day because he was on a one-week indoctrination course, said Kerry's action was dangerous but necessary. "Every day you wake up and say, 'How the hell did we get out of that alive?'" Gibson said. "Kerry was a good leader. He knew what he was doing."

Although Kerry's superiors were somewhat concerned about the issue of his leaving his boat unattended, they nonetheless found his actions courageous and worthy of commendation:

When Kerry returned to his base, his commanding officer, George Elliott, raised an issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial.

"When came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when came back and I heard his debrief, I said, 'John, I don't know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,'" Elliott recalled in an interview.

"But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that," Elliott said. A Silver Star, which the Navy said is its fifth-highest medal, commends distinctive gallantry in action.

Asked why he had raised the issue of a court-martial, Elliott said he did so "half tongue-in-cheek, because there was never any question I wanted him to realize I didn't want him to leave his boat unattended. That was in context of big-ship Navy — my background. A C.O. never leaves his ship in battle or anything else. I realize this, first of all, it was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you usually find no more than two or three people there. On the other hand, on an operation some time later, down on the very tip of the peninsula, we had lost one boat and several men in a big operation, and they were hit by a lot more than two or three people."

Elliott stressed that he never questioned Kerry's decision to kill the Viet Cong, and he appeared in Boston at Kerry's side during the 1996 Senate race to back up that aspect of Kerry's action.

"I don't think they were exactly ready to court-martial him," said Wade Sanders, who commanded a swift boat that sometimes accompanied Kerry's vessel, and who later became deputy assistant secretary of the Navy. "I can only say from the certainty borne of experience that there must have been some rumbling about, 'What are we going to do with this guy, he turned his boat,' and I can hear the words, 'He endangered his crew.' But from our position, the tactic to take is whatever action is best designed to eliminate the enemy threat, which is what he did."

Indeed, the Silver Star citation makes clear that Kerry's performance on that day was both extraordinary and risky. "With utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets," the citation says, Kerry "again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only 10 feet from the Viet Cong rocket position and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy . . . The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lt. Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission."
…
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Oh, please...

Kerry shot the man while pursuing him from the ambush site. The man was still armed, therefore he was still a combatant.

If you're going to sow seeds of doubt, you're going to have to do better than this weak attempt.

[Macadian]

56. Why is everyone so defensive?????

I'm not trying to 'sow seeds of doubt'.

I'm trying to get clarification.

Stop acting like there is something to hide. I don't think there is and neither should you.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

47. Well....someone had to chase him down and kill him

'cuz Bush sure couldn't- he was in Texas hiding out in the guard!

[Macadian]

57. LMAO....Thats for damn sure.

Hard to hit the viet cong all the way from Alabama!!

[Mr_Lefty]

72. Read this link if you want the truth

"Kerry earned his Silver Star on 28 February 1969, when he beached his craft and jumped off it with an M-16 rifle in hand to chase and shoot a guerrilla who was running into position to launch a B-40 rocket at Kerry's boat. Contrary to the account quoted above, Kerry did not shoot a "Charlie" who had "fired at the boat and missed," whose "rocket launcher was empty," and who was "already dead or dying" after being "knocked down with a .50 caliber round." Kerry's boat had been hit by a rocket fired by someone else — the guerrilla in question was still armed with a live B-40 and had only been clipped in the leg; when the guerrilla got up to run, Kerry assumed he was getting into position to launch a rocket and shot him:"

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp

The guy was wounded but still fighting- I believe you can shoot troops in retreat.

[ZR2]

6. The rules of war (I know, contradiction in terms)

are supposed to stop a "non-combatant" from being killed. If a soldier, even one that was just shooting at you, is now injured and unable to be a combatant, they have the protection of the Geneva Convention. Same as a pilot that is parachuting out of a downed aircraft.

[neverborn]

3. CNN

is reporting this? Where's the link?

[NMDemDist2]

7. Is on the broadcast... am waiting for the link to show on the website

[Lugnut]

12. I'm shocked!

CNN actually showed footage of an injured Iraqi being "finished off" by a Marine. It was sickening to look at as it should be. That it was even shown on TV tells me that somebody is starting to seriously pay attention. It's way past time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

14. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD ON A STUFFED PLATYPUS

This is Vietnam all over again. Grab this shot and paste it over placards at protest. OMG OMG OMG :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry: :mad: :cry:

[benfranklin1776]

26. Videotape it before it disappears.

It is evidence of a potential war crime.

Art. 50. Grave breaches to which the preceding Article relates shall be those involving any of the
following acts, if committed against persons or property protected by the Convention: wilful killing,
torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering or
serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not
justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly.


http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva05.htm

[KinkyDem]

15. No link

but the audio of the soldiers cheering when they shot that man on the ground was sickening.

When the guy dragged himself from the burning vehicle only to be giunned down with a 30mm machine gun from a helicopter gun ship was sad beyond belief. They actualy played the audio of the commander giving the order to shoot the man on the ground.

What has become of my nation?

[leftchick]

17. I saw that too. It made me want to vomit....

How low we have sunk as a nation. Fuck you chimpy*, aWol* coward!

[Turley]

27. Could you briefly describe what you saw.?

How did CNN get hold of the audio from an Apache? Or were they riding with a Blackhawk? Sorry, but I'm overseas and don't have CNN just now.

[Lugnut]

74. The video was shot

By a CNN photographer. They were discussing violations of the Geneva Convention and went so far to put up a shot of the actual wording of the Convention. The real insult was the announcement that the incident had been investigated by the military and was determined to be justified. It makes me wonder what other and how many atrocities are being covered up.

[arcane1]

43. both of these sound very familiar

I recall seeing a clip of a young soldier shooting a distant injured Iraqi lying on the ground, later saying it was cool and wants to do it again. I've seen some gunship video that sounds like this, too.

the media is finally showing this too??

[saigon68]

51. Support the Troops

later saying it was cool and wants to do it again

I have a problem here.. I think this guy is in trouble. I can't imagine a commanding officer who would tolerate something like this.

[Jazzgirl]

53. Same video arcane1.

I remember seeing it several months ago as well and its the same video.

[leftchick]

62. that is the one...

hard to not get sick viewing it... :(

[qb]

5. Not surprising, as the U.S. has shown no regard for international law.

What is surprising is that CNN is reporting it. What the hell is going on?

[rockymountaindem]

8. I hate to tell you

but I'll bet that's one of the rules everybody, and I do mean *everybody* ignores sometimes. While it's not civilized, war never is. As far as I'm concerned, about the only thing we can ask of any fighting force is that they refrain from shooting civilians. Beyond that, everything else is just gravy.

[info being]

31. The trouble is, when you're the aggressor...even killing soldiers...

is murder.

[daleo]

42. This is probably true

But it makes the hand wringing about mutilation of corpses and other actions by the resistance hypocritical.

[seemslikeadream]

9. The U.S. government assumes no responsibility

have no rules.



The U.S. government assumes no responsibility


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Contact in Iraq:
Will Geddes or Andy King
Tel: <44> [phone] (UK number that rings in Baghdad)
Email: [e-mail]

Description of Services:
ICP Group Ltd is an international threat management company servicing many international organizations including the corporate, industrial, financial, telecoms and pharmaceutical industries. With representation country-wide since Desert Storm (1991), ICP Group Ltd have provided security support and services to many major multi-national companies, NGO and government agencies. Providers of high-quality and competitively-priced protection services, security equipment, logistics management and liaison services, ICP Group Ltd can ensure that you are provided with an effective and efficiently managed security solution for short, mid and long-term engagements. Services include: close protection/bodyguards (static and mobile), secure accommodation, armored vehicles, personal protection equipment, field operations supplies, due diligence, risk assessment, audits and project evaluation/analysis, medical services, hostile environment training, specialist insurance coverage (through Lloyds of London), crisis management, and business continuity services and evacuation support and services. ICP Group Ltd protection employees are only either former British and US Special Forces or Elite Forces personnel.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ISI

Headquarters:
Baghdad Conference Palace
Mansour, Baghdad
Tel: <1> 914-360-2492
Email: [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Omar Hadi
Tel: <1> 914-360-2492 or <1> 914-822-7707
Email: [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]

Description of Services:
ISI Iraq is a part of the ISI Group and is the only security company to provide 24 hour Iraqi security guards to the CPA "Green Zone". All guards are trained by the U.S. army, vetted through "local knowledge" and have been a valuable asset to the American troops at the convention center in Baghdad. ISI also provides guards for residences, offices, and also do low key protection work for foreign nationals. All guards provided to foreign nationals have proficient English, and invaluable local knowledge, military or police backgrounds as well as British and American training. ISI has also been involved in due diligence, providing information for foreign and domestic companies through a network of personalities, companies, and families throughout Iraq. ISI's senior management includes experienced military personnel mostly ex-special forces from both the US and UK. ISI provides turnkey accommodation solution for foreign companies and press, in low key locations around Baghdad, providing and vetting all members of staff, 24 hour security as well as other complimentary support. Security services include: manned guarding, close protection work, site surveys, turnkey accommodation, and provision of commercial intelligence and due diligence, translators and drivers. Commercial services include: representation, construction, turn key 'camps', transportation within and in and out of Iraq. ISI has existing joint venture agreements with both US and UK established security firms.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meteoric Tactical Solutions


Headquarters:
6 Meteor Road
Valhalla
Pretoria, South Africa
Tel: <27> 12 651 3402
Fax: <27> 12 651 3402
Email: [e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Lourens Horn (Louwtjie)
Tel: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

Description of Services:
Specialized training programs, VIP protection, asset protection, risk management and analysis, even management, asset recovery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meyer & Associates

Headquarters:
P.O. Box 1800
Joshua (DFW), TX 76058
Tel: <11> 817-426-1199
Fax: <11> 817-558-4868
Website: www.meyerglobalforce.com
Email: [e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Tim Meyer or Gary DeSmith
Tel: [phone] or 1-817-821-8820
Email: [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Description of Services:
Security consulting and problem resolution, executive protection/bodyguards, advance work, intelligence, transportation and drivers, security guards, threat assessment, kidnap negotiations, investigations, reporting, analysis, liaisons with government, diplomatic, military, local and guerilla leaders. Aggressive security including specialized ex-military personnel utilizing state of the art equipment and tactics. Armed Patrol Vessels.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Olive Security (UK) Limited
Headquarters:
2 Charles Street
Mayfair, London
W1J 5DB
England, UK
Tel: <44> (0) 207307 0540
Fax: <44> (0) 207307 0542
Email: [e-mail]
Website: www.olivesecurity.com

Contact in Iraq:
John Yourston and Douglas Dick
Tel: [phone] or <965> 914-0169 (Kuwait office)

Description of Services:
Armed VIP protection, armed convoy escort, threat and risk analysis, security site survey, key point security, manned guards, technological security including: TSCM, debugging/sweeps, IT security implementation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Optimal Solution Services
Headquarters:
4/35 Spencer Street
Fairfield NSW
Australia
Tel: <61> (2) 97555840
Fax: <61> (2) 97559835
Email: [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Zahir F. Hameed
Tel: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail]

Description of Services:
The infrastructure is streamlined to ensure maximum efficiency and effectiveness in vigilance and security alert response. Our emphasis is on maintaining the highest industry standards with our security personnel adhering to safety and health regulation and best work practices.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overseas Security & Strategic Information, Inc/Safenet - Iraq

Headquarters:
Post Office Box 52067
Atlanta, GA 30355
USA
Tel: <1> 404-307-4072
Fax: <1> 413-208-6069
Email: [e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
John H. Walbridge, Jr. or Mauritz Le Roux
Tel: <964> 7901915494 or <88> 216 5201 4591/4592

Description of Services:
We provide in-country "hands on" management of highly trained and experienced South African security personnel by former American intelligence officers with paramilitary backgrounds. Services include close protection of VIPs, general personal security of employees, convoy escorts of personnel and equipment, training of local security personnel, provision of armored and unarmored vehicles, threat and intelligence reporting, and provision of combat medics with proper equipment. Our approach is responsive, personalized and cost-effective.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RamOPS Risk Management Group

Headquarters:
7312 Suite 8 Hihenge Court
Raleigh, NC 27615
Tel: <1> 919-740-4597
Website: www.ramops.com
Email: [e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Andy Potts or John Autenreith
Email: [e-mail]
Tel: <1> 919-740-4597 (US)

Description of Services:
Security consulting that includes threat assessments, recommended precautions, and contingency planning for personnel, sites, and equipment. Site security including area patrols, point security, and barricade design. Executive and VIP protection, convoy escort, 24/7 coverage available throughout Iraq. Communications, information technology, and logistic services available in support of any NGO or commercial operation. Their entire organization is comprised of US special operations and military intelligence professionals. Security consulting and training available in the US for NGO or corporate personnel prior to deployment.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sumer International Security

Headquarters:
Almasbah - Dis Babilon
Sec. 929, St. 10, Building 10(54/356)
Baghdad, Iraq
Tel: <1> 312-869-7336 (VOIP)
Fax: <1> 202-438-9710
Email: [e-mail]
Website: www.thesandigroup.com

Contact in Iraq:
Janna Lipman
Tel: <1> 312-869-8336 (VOIP) or <964> 7901-916-338 or <1> 202-483-5900
Email: [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Description of Services:
SIS security guards, body guards, and private police armed and uniformed are trained by DynCorp International. Our clients are protected by a 365 days, 24/7 basis and we maintain a 24 hours dispatch operation with field supervision.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Triple Canopy Inc.

Headquarters:
200 W. Adams Street
29th Floor
Chicago, IL 60606
USA
Tel: <1> 312-895-5000 ext. 7070
Fax: <1> 312-895-5001
Email: [e-mail]
Website: www.triplecanopy.com

Contact in Iraq:
Ron Boline or Tony Nichlson
Tel: <1> 914-360-6961 (NY number rings in Baghdad) or <44> 208-792-629 (UK number rings in Baghdad)
Email: [e-mail] or [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Description of Services:
Triple Canopy excels in executive protection, site security, and convoy security. Our operators have an average of more than 20 years in the most elite military Special Operations units and are the highest quality personnel in the industry. Our services range from discreet travel companions to heavily armored, high profile convoy escort. From security assessments to tactical training to direct security work, Triple Canopy has the solution.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wade-Boyd and Associates LLC

Headquarters:
Suite 116
Main Street
Lawler, IA 52154
Tel: <1> 641-330-4581 or 931-302-7822
Fax: <1> 270-518-5780
Email: [e-mail]

Contact in Iraq:
Malek (Ali) Mehanna or V. Brooke Phillips
Tel: <1> 641-330-4581 (US)
Email: [e-mail] or [e-mail]

Description of Services:
Owned and operated by honorably retired U.S. army military police investigator, who currently is the command investigator lieutenant for the U.S. DOD federal police. And, an honorably retired (twice) U.S. DOD federal police investigator sergeant/chief of police. With over 40 years of combined experience, we provide: professional, experienced, former military/federal law enforcement, armed close protection teams, K-9 dogs for explosive detection and protection, security officers both standing and roving, investigations, under-cover investigations, armed escorts, vehicle and transportation convoy security, armed patrol in vehicle and water craft, air craft protection teams both on land and in the air, translators, armed money/valuables escorts, surveillance, global vehicle tracking, home and business protection both uniformed and plan clothes, armored vehicles, and more.

http://travel.state.gov/iraq_securitycompanies.html

[bobthedrummer]

11. The administration of George W. Bush aka The War President

early on removed US forces from being charged for war crimes or answerable to institutions such as the World Court, remember?

Plus mercenaries are involved, they have no rules at all.

And the rationale for this is reprisal for the killing of mercenaries that happened to be Americans.

[nolabels]

22. Just going to prove who signs the check, is really whats going on

The heart of a fascist doctrine is protecting the access to wealth and power at any cost (might add, a weakness).

"All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher.' - Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914)"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[soleft]

18. Did CNN say they were "breaking Geneva Convention"

Or did they report just report the killing?

[NMDemDist2]

21. the banner was "2 videos raise questions about troop conduct"

[soleft]

25. Please edit your headline accordingly

[NMDemDist2]

28. sorry mod... is that better?

[soleft]

29. That's great, thank you!

[seemslikeadream]

23. Reuters has raw footage from Iraq

Bleachers7 had this in GD

Reuters has raw footage from Iraq


It is the second column, bottom image. It is long and very good video. Also Chimpys performance today is there.

http://reuters.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?st=1081223465218&rf=bm&mp=WMP...

[Malva Zebrina]

30. Maybe CNN thinks it safe to report this now, since it seems

to me, that we are country , in which a significant number of citizens are vengeful and call for blood to be spilled, even if it is a country that was not a threat to us and even if their president lied about and left ten thousand innocents dead in the wake of his lies--seems to me , these same, would probably approve of this, since they have been brainwashed to believe these Iraqi are terrorists, harbor terrorists and are in some way connected to 9-11. Why not kill them?--then they cannot return to kill us is probably the spin.

I met a woman this morning whom I have not seen in a while. After the ammenities, she told me her son was in Afganistan. I told her eight more soldiers were killed in a period of 24 hours and that we need to bring them all home. She said "He is so proud to be there" . No use starting a conflict. I am sure she thought I did not support the troops. People buy it that their precious sons are "protecting our freedoms" instead of protecting the pipeline and the opium fields.

We are very much a broken country.

[nolabels]

40. Can a women that spent all them years raising her child think that way?

This is truly sad and I have a hard time putting it to reason. I often get angry with the kids, but never would I like to think of them with the possibility of being in harms way as a good thing.

What is this lady thinking, is she brain dead or what?

On Edit: With the lady stoning her kids to death, maybe people don't always fall off the same branch of the tree. (I Just need to remember that it's mostly men who send them off to war)

[bloom]

48. If parents did not ascribe glory to war

how would they stand it?

Heroes, war memorials, parades, uniforms, medals, pensions, benefits....

If citizens said - yep - here we are a bunch of murdering thugs - society would break down (or would be transformed). It has to be US vs. THEM with a clear distinction of who THEM is. Or we might we all kill each other - and why would one killing be OK and not the other?


(That's why it's scary when Freepers start saying they want to kill Liberals. We become the THEM to them. And they to US....)

[nolabels]

61. Freepers have yet to fathom the realm which they have entered

Fear is the part of you that wants to live in a sane world. Mostly if you closely, you will see none of that today.

Remember * says people who would like more control of their lives and the country they live are part of the terra because they hate our freedoms :crazy:

[Lefergus70]

59. Your perception brought me down to earth.

I was thinking that at last the public is horrified by waht's happening and that this is a turning point. But no, I'm afraid you are right. We could even have Bush back in office next November.

[Malikshah]

35. Wasn't this video shown a while back?

Or is this a new video?

I have the page bookmarked somewhere of soldiers joking/smiling and an Iraqi writhing before being shot from a safe distance.

Is this the same video?

[NMDemDist2]

37. I'm not sure I was just watching the news this morning and there it was

it was "combat" footage from a night scene

[Malikshah]

38. The scene I'm referring to took place during the day

Does anyone remember that? Or the link?

[Dead_Parrot]

45. I think you mean this...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm
Scary...

[NMDemDist2]

46. yes that was one of the clips they used

"that was awesome, let's do it again" :wtf:

[RoyGBiv]

50. Night Video

If you follow the link on that page to "more video" you get a very tiny video feed of another instance of killing a wounded man.

The narration is in German. They are interviewing a retired American officer, but you don't get to hear much of what he says due to the voice-over.

<http://www.ndrtv.de/cgi/pan_video/video/vs/20040226_201503_tv_panorama_2020_schuesse.rm>

This is really horrid stuff.

[Jazzgirl]

55. Yes Malikshah, same footage.

At least the footage I saw on CNN was the same daytime shooting I saw several months ago.

[Malikshah]

63. Thanks Folks!

That was it-- have it bookmarked at home, just not at work.

CNN is finally running with stuff they had since...feb?

Sick sick sick.

[blindpig]

41. wonderful

no better way to get a man to fight to the death than to give him no other option. As the Russians found in WWII when their policy of killing all SS troops inspired fanatical resistance from the SS. There are practical reasons for the rules of war besides humanitarian considerations.

[bobbieinok]

44. REMEMBER??? no one in Gitmo is POW so no Geneva conv applies

[progressivebydesign]

49. Who said they were "soldiers" being shot?

As IF there is any "soldiers" left in Iraq. Mostly, it's civilian militia types.. just like the Americans would be if we were invaded, blown up, and occupied.

[Jazzgirl]

52. The video was taped several months ago.

I saw the video online several months ago. The audio was included with the video. I'm trying to see if I can find a link to where I saw it...thought I saved it.

[RoyGBiv]

58. Links

From a couple different messages:

CNN Video:

<http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5365.htm>

Apache video, German narration, Interview with General, etc. + above video at end again with German narration.

<http://www.ndrtv.de/cgi/pan_video/video/vs/20040226_201503_tv_panorama_2020_schuesse.rm>

[Karenina]

60. ANYONE who understands German

PLEASE do look at RofGBiv's 2nd link. Meine ficken Fresse.

[gottaB]

66. direct link for second video (realplayer)

http://video.ndr.de/ramgen/video/vs/20040226_201503_tv_panorama_2020_schuesse.rm


It basically documents two instances of US soldiers firing upon wounded opponents. The filmmakers note that killing "incapicatated" combatants is a violation of Geneva protocols, and they consult several experts who agree that these killings are criminal acts, i.e. murders.

[Fleshdancer]

65. My opinion isn't going to make me popular on this one....

I know that war is suppose to have rules and I do agree with concept of the Geneva convention, but on the other hand, when you are in a kill or be killed situation, isn't it part of human survival to ensure that the wounded person who just tried to kill you could no longer attempt to kill you ever again?

I'm just talking about the pure human nature of it all. If I had an attacker enter my home and tried to kill me and I was able to wound that person with either a gun or knife, I don't think I would have it in me to stop until he/she was dead.

It's all hypothetical so there's really no way of knowing, but I can sympathize with the soldier...the 18 year old soldier who is scared shitless and has seen nothing but war, death, and destruction for the past year. Can't be easy.

[Bridget Burke]

67. So, what will happen to the 18 year old soldier when he's wounded?

Will he expect the Iraqis to give him medical treatment? If he's "lucky"--and returns home without a scratch--how will he adapt to civilian life?

No, you don't agree with the concept of the Geneva Convention.

My father was shot down over France in 1943. All his crew made it out of the B-17 safely. But one of them was dead when he hit the ground--his legs had been shot off. Guess that's OK with you!

[Fleshdancer]

68. Yes I do agree with the concept of the Geneva Convention

You telling me I don't won't change that fact.

Again, I was talking about the human nature aspect of it. I never said the soldier SHOULD kill a wounded soldier on the other side and I would NEVER want anyone to kill our wounded soldiers. I just think it's a little TOO easy for everyone to sit at their computer desk and judge the actions of soldiers in combat.

And about your father...well the idea that I would want him to be dead is just below the belt and disgusting. That's a shameful way to debate. Both my parents served in the military. My father did 3 tours in Vietnam with 3 purple hearts, one grandfather was in WWI the other in WWII, and my brother who is currently serving was in the invasion of Panama, the first Gulf War, the Afghanistan War, and this Iraqi War. He goes back to Afghanistan in June. Don't tell me I want ANY wounded soldier dead. You don't have that right.

[atreides1]

70. As A Former Soldier...

...and a veteran of the Gulf War, it takes two soldiers to attend to a wounded comrade, while a dead soldier is left behind.

I'm not sure where you're coming from, but based on my own experience in the Gulf, if I wound an enemy, and he continues to resist then I don't have a choice. But if that enemy stops resisting, then I am bound by the Geneva Conventions to stop shooting.

Once the area is cleared and considered safe, then we give him first aid and send him back to be processed as a POW.

What you are theoretically trying to condone, is what the Germans did to the American POWs at Malmedy. You see human nature decided that since they Germans were not equipped to take prisoners, the prisoners would be shot.

If the soldiers currently on the ground in Iraq, justify the murder of wounded, then they themselves should expect the same kind of treatment. And we the citizens of the US will have no reason to point
fingers at the Iraqis and call their actions barbaric, because we try to justify the killing of the wounded.

Tell your brother to keep his head down, and to stay away from roadsides. From one soldier to another.

[nonbelief]

69. You've got it backwards...

The 18 year-old American soldier is the guy who's crawled through the window into someone's house while carrying a gun. The Iraqi is the homeowner who's trying to stop the home invasion.

[NMDemDist2]

71. I can go for that except the wounded man was several 100 feet away