WP: Demonstrators Swarm Around Rove's Home

[kskiska]

Several hundred people stormed the small yard of President Bush's chief political strategist, Karl Rove, yesterday afternoon, pounding on his windows, shoving signs at others and challenging Rove to talk to them about a bill that deals with educational opportunities for immigrants.

Protesters poured out of one school bus after another, piercing an otherwise quiet, peaceful Sunday in Rove's Palisades neighborhood in Northwest, chanting, "Karl, Karl, come on out! See what the DREAM Act is all about!"

Rove obliged their first request and opened his door long enough to say, "Get off my property."

"Seems like he doesn't want to invite us in for tea," Emira Palacios quipped to the crowd.

Others chanted, "Karl Rove ain't got no soul."

more…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31890-2004Mar28.html

[slinkerwink]

1. hahahaha, excellent!

[Athame]

26. No, FISHY!

Something doesn't smell right about this.

snip>>
But what the group really wanted was a conversation with Rove, who declined to comment to a reporter through a Secret Service agent.

And after about 30 minutes of goading by protesters in English and Spanish, Rove agreed to meet with two members of the coalition on the condition that the rest of the protesters board their buses and leave his street. The group obliged.

Rove opened his garage door and allowed Palacios and Inez Killingsworth to enter. The meeting lasted two minutes and ended with Rove closing the garage door on Palacios while she was still talking.

<<<snip


Too much theatre. Why would Rove meet with them? Anybody in Chicago know who these people really are? Wouldn't we have heard about it if there was some kind of action like this? I have never been in a group that pounded on people's windows at their home with their children present. ...Pouring out of school buses ?!!

:silly:

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. You're asking good questions.

I'm terribly surprised that a group that's supporting legislation for immigrants could be so bold.

First, I think it's good legislation. We do need to provide educational services for the children of immigrants, but, what I don't agree with is Rove/Bush's other ideas that attract immigrants to this country in the first place. So, I find it very interesting that this group would be so bold to go where no other American has dared go before.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. This is a terrifying escalation

Next time they will be met, as they should be, with a serious police presence and hopefully all locked up for trespassing and harassment, possibly assault.

[The Backlash Cometh]

45. Maybe the Republicans would have been wise to implement those changes

after they harassed Gore in 2000, eh? Not a party of great foresight, as it's turning out.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. That surprises you?

And they aren't changes. The law doesn't allow for this sort of harassment.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. Yes, there are laws on the books, but it isn't as encompassing as you

imply. i.e. protestors who congregate weekly at abortion clinics are allowed to protest as long as they keep a distance determined by law.

The only way that Rove would be immune to this kind of protest is if he lived in a private community and on a private street.

[terisel]

51. Some Questions about the Action and his Response.

I think his response showed the cowardice of the bully. It certainly wasn't smooth. I would have thought he had received standard training about how to respond to demonstrators.

It is puzzling because he almost certainly would have had advance warning and apparently secret service was there. why was the group allowed to get close-not usual procedure for Bush administration.

Is it possible this is a "let it happen on purpose" to show the dangers of "out of control leftists."

Possibly he expected the news stories to skew in his favor and the reporters did not write it up as expected:

Angry Mob of Illegals Attacks Presidential Adviser ! Yesterday an angry mob of illegal immigrants, seeking government handouts and using children as shields, attacked a high ranking presidential adviser at his private residence, trampling well-tended flower beds, attempting to punch out windows, and endangering his family. While his children hid inside the dwelling, a firm and resolute Karl Rove stood outside and tried to reason with the mob. His calm demeanor was in shark contrast to ......

I am so cynical that I first thought it was a totally faux demonstration he set up to divide and conquer and gain public sympathy or obtain more taxpayer provided protection.

However, I suppose Rove thinks of himself as a behind-the-scenes person who never has to face public anger for his policies.

Possibly Karen Hughes will rethink her return to Washington or maybe they will all move to the White House bunker rooms.

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. I don't see the right-wing coming to his aid on this issue.

I can just hear their response now, "Well, you gave them an inch and now they wanna foot." "You asked for it, and now you got it."

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. Not true

They trespassed onto his private property, banged on his windows (which certainly is either harassment or even threatening), so they broke multiple laws. This was a private residence, not a place of public accommodation.

[The Stranger]

86. The sidewalk and street are in a public easement, and once they were

told to evacuate his yard and windows, they did so. No laws were broken.

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Trespassing, harassment

They entered his private property uninvited. They banged on his windows. In some neighborhoods that will get you shot.

[The Stranger]

92. Rove even invited some of them into his garage.

As far as the rest, solicitors "enter private property uninvited everyday," as do pamphleters and others. No arrests were made either, indicating laws were not violated.

Although being subject to a protest may be considered "harrassment," it is still ensconced with the protections of free speech and protected by law, especially with regard to public officers and pure speech.

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. No arrests were made

Indicating that Rove didn't feel like pressing charges.

Free speech does not cover invading someone's property and banging on their windows.

Next time there will be police (or should be) and lots of folks should get arrest records.

[The Backlash Cometh]

121. Let me repeat what you said:

"Next time they will be met, as they should be, with a serious police presence and hopefully all locked up for trespassing and harassment, possibly assault."

And my reply to you regarding the next time they protest, that the law will not automatically do the things you list above unless the protestors cross the line as they did the first time around. It depends on whether Rove's street is a public or private street and if they stay within the limits allowed by law.

What they did yesterday (or today), is, however, trespassing and does qualify for retribution, should Rove decide to press charges. But, they would probably respond that he invited two of them in, so it was more solicitation, than retribution.

BTW, knocking on doors for religious solicitation is constitutional. It was a win for Jehovah Witnesses and I believe that's a federal law. Shouldn't be too difficult to extend the reasoning to apply to this case as well.

[markus]

47. I disagree completely

These people delcared "civil war" on us over a decade ago, and know no bounds to their actions.

I say it's time to start taking the battle to the enemy. And these people are the enemies of our Republic.

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. There are ways to do it properly.

I still chuckle thinking about the women and men who dressed up in pilgrim's costumes and greeted Ken Starr as he stepped out of his house on his way to work in the morning. They chased Ken Starr's car down the road. It was kind of funny and more theatrical than intimidating.

[nolabels]

132. Just the idea was funny, let alone them actually doing it

Sure wish they had pictures

"We have art to save ourselves from the truth.' - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)";

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.' - Plato (427-347 B.C.)";

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[saigon68]

64. Tell that to the terrified woman going to Planned Parenthood

To get information on family planning confronted by a Pack of WHACKED OUT CHRISTIANS

Or at a gay man's funeral, confronted by the good Rev. Fred Phelps and his band of merry pranksters.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. You say you want a revolution

I do not. I don't want civil war. We tried that once and hundreds of thousands died. Today it would cost millions of lives and likely get a result we wouldn't like.

The GOP spreads propaganda, so do we. There are more media outlets now than ever in history.

[Missy Vixen]

91. How else were these folks supposed to get a hearing?

>The GOP spreads propaganda, so do we. There are more media outlets now than ever in history.<

I can only imagine the frustration when the guy didn't even acknowledge them, let alone give them longer than two minutes to state their case. I don't agree that they should have knocked on the windows of his residence, but I believe that they would never have even gotten an audience with any member of the * administration through normal channels.

It's a good thing that Rove has now had to deal with some of his own medicine. It's hard to believe that he and his ilk had nothing to do at all with the storming of the Naval Observatory while Al Gore was still living there by the neighborhood FReeekers. As far as "making his children cry," it's hard to imagine how many others' children he's made cry over the past four years with he and the * administration's policies.

Julie

[Muddleoftheroad]

101. Oh, frustration is justification for crime?

Nope, not in my book.

What they did to Gore was wrong. So is this. So how are we better again?

[NashVegas]

105. The US Was Founded on Frustration

In general our populace is more pacifist in dealing with governmental outrages than its ever been.

By today's standards, the Boston Tea Party folks would be branded as vandalist scum. Those New Yorkers who shut down their economy over the Stamp Act (?) would be branded as radical communists, and the next generation that engaged in riots over the cost of flour, well .. forget it.

I guess it depends on what the crime is. In this particular case, the demonstrators did what they were asked. What's unusual is that they demanded that someone who hangs in the background, in a totally unaccountable position (where the voters are concerned) be treated as otherwise.

[mhr]

94. Then You Want Appeasement, I Want Change!

As Thomas Jefferson Said,

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

[Muddleoftheroad]

103. You are welcome to spill YOUR blood

Try spilling anyone else's and the government and most of America will be all over you.

And we will lose as a result.

[atreides1]

115. But....

...doing it your way isn't working out to well either. And if we keep
doing it the "Rodney King" way we will lose.

Democrats already have a reputation for being non-confrontational, and
the Republicans use this to their advantage, one way is by constantly
saying that Democrats are soft on National Security.

The average American mind set is, if they don't fight back, they cannot defend us, and the Republicans use this as much as they can.
And it works.

I agree that we should talk and try to settle problems without the loss of life, but like the Founders who tried to talk to the English Crown, we cannot talk forever. The more Democrats show that they do not have the stomach for a fight, the more support the Republicans will gain, the more they will point a finger and say "how can the Democrats defend our country, when they refuse to fight for what they believe in".

If revolution or civil war is the answer, then so be it. But the longer we try to talk to people who don't care, the more we will lose
in the end.

Muddle, if you won't fight, then stay out of the way.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

123. Not out of the way

I actually plan to be in the way of any fool -- left or right -- misguided enough to try civil war.

[Fovea]

127. Oh yeah

I want to see Karl Rove screaming at kids of people Bush* invited into the US to be virtural slaves, asking for an education while the cops haul them off in paddy wagons, maybe even teargassing them as they sing 'America the Beautiful.'

That's what I want to see on the 6 o clock news coast to coast, ayup.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

55. Wait...when did ADVISORS start getting Secret Service?

[ellie]

70. My thoughts exactly!

Why does this fat fuck get protection on the public's dime? Incredible.

[Union Thug]

2. every day...

Rove should wake up to this every morning and go to be to this everying evening... Let it fly...

[PartyPooper]

3. I'd love to visit his house on Halloween!

:evilgrin:

[SilasSoule]

4. These guys know how the game is played:

Shortly thereafter, sirens shot through the neighborhood and Secret Service agents and D.C. police joined the crowd on the lawn. Rove opened his door long enough to talk to an officer, and the crowd serenaded them with a stanza of "America the Beautiful."

[diamond14]

5. Palacios said that Rove was "very upset" and was "yelling in our faces"

rove and the entire bush* cabal prey on our children....

it's really sad that these kids have to travel from Chicago to tell rove what a PIG he is.....

check out the photo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31890-2004Mar28.html

[shanti]

25. "don't you dare come back", eh?

how about daily, karl??

[terisel]

68. Bush Administration Modus Operandi

on edit: I think there is a method to the Rove "madness.'

[King_Crimson]

6. This is great...

If we can get this bastard little rat distracted, all the better! There goes Numbnuts' brain! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[goclark]

8. Oh My!

This is amazing and to the best of my knowledge this is NOT a democratic dirty trick.

Do you mean to tell me that citizens are realizing that these people are a bunch of crooks!!!!

[Supormom]

7. How soon before they declare

The homes of every official in this administration a "free speech zone"?
This is a great idea. If they won't let us near bush*, then we should go after other members of his administration.

[PartyPooper]

10. I agree. Where does Condi live?

:evilgrin:

[diamond14]

16. condi lives in the Watergate complex....it's secure and locked up

but LOTS of people go in there, thousands every day....delivery people, servants, etc.....and especially and notably, nixon's dirty tricks team...'the plumbers', who just walked right in through a service door, after someone else walked out...

on the main floor, there's a couple restaurants, and a coffee shop....all real pricey stuff...

[Occulus]

34. So if people made a disturbance....

....every single day there, could Condi get evicted?

After all, she is a tenant, isn't she? Or does she own her rooms?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

27. Visit the homes of the press lackeys, too. n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. They don't have to

It was still an illegal act. I guarantee they wouldn't want to do that on MY property for instance.

[el_gato]

57. cry me a river mud

IF this was a genuine action then it's fine as far as I'm concerned.
Why are you so busy trying to defend Karl Rove while these bastards
are destroying our country?

They behave outside of the law it's about time true believers in freedom fight fire with fire.

Kissing ass and licking boots has gotten the left nowhere.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Fuck Karl Rove

I am saying this was a scary action and likely only to bring a bad response that the public will support.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Again screw him

But organizing protests on people's PRIVATE property is illegal and likely to end badly.

As anybody who tried to organize a protest on my lawn would discover. One of my neighbors has some really nasty dogs I would borrow just for the occasion.

[mhr]

96. That's What Guns Are For - They Will Quickly Dispatch The Dogs

Some democrats understand that gun laws cut both ways.

As Jefferson said so eloquently,

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I'll side with Jefferson, a founding father of the United Sates Of America.

It is time to purge this country of the Republican disease that currently infects the body politic.

Some of us are tired of appeasement, just like those brave members of the Boston Tea Party.

If you want to side with the republicans and appeasers then so be it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

104. LOL

Yeah, try shooting ANYTHING on my property and you will quickly find that I am pro-gun.

I will not support civil war. If you want civil war, then I hope the Powers That Be shut you the hell down but quick.

[mhr]

120. We The People Have The Right To Change The Government

peacefully or otherwise.

If you want to defend your right to die for the status quo that is fine.

Prepared to be mowed down.

It has happened before and will happen again. As long as the republicans and corporations are not stopped revolution is the natural course and end to this stalemate.

Read your history!

[Muddleoftheroad]

124. Not otherwise

You have the right to TRY. The government reserves the right to shoot you down. I reserve the right to help them do it to anyone who tries setting brother against brother.

I read my history. Civil war killed 600,000+ last time in the U.S. I don't want more of the same.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demdave]

111. Purge the country of Rep. and appeasers? Mighty short list don't you think

Maybe you could expand that to people you don't really like and maybe all people that think differently than you. Just be careful, there were 2 groups of people Jefferson spoke of in his much quoted, by you, line.....patriots and tyrants. Make sure you know which one you are.

I am getting an idea what your plan for taking back the country is but I would rather have you expound it so I don't put words into your mouth. All I have to work with now are phrases like...."blood of patriots and tyrants"......"purge this country of the Republican disease". Could you detail exactly what you endorse is the way of purging?

P.S. First you are a patriot in Boston and now you think you are Thomas Jefferson? Mighty high bar to reach.

[mhr]

122. Your Post Makes No Sense.

Without checking the rampant disparity of wealth in the US and without checking the rampant republican sponsored propaganda we are heading to an impasse as more Americans find themselves disenfranchised.

Disenfranchised people have a nasty habit of overthrowing their oppressors.

I guess you have not read very much history.

[goclark]

110. I agree

I do think that there can be peaceful protest in the area of the homes.
There can be peaceful protest in front of the White House..correct?

I'm still not sure what could make these people feel so disenfranchised that they were willing to risk being arrested to let KKKarl know how they feel. Why are they that angry?

[Catherine Vincent]

9. As much as I can't stand that pasty fat bastard, I think this is wrong.

The protestors should have stormed his office, not his home.

[PartyPooper]

12. LOL. His office is *IN* the White House. Good luck "storming" his office!

:eyes:

[Catherine Vincent]

15. I know it's in the WH but the protestors should protest in front of

the WH. I don't agree at all with protesting at someone's home, unless their office is at their home. I didn't like it when pro life people did it to abortion doctors and I don't like it now.

[kera]

29. you sound very concerned , violating people's privacy using

chock and Awe is less chocking

[The Stranger]

58. This sort of faux sense of manners and worry about "hurting the cause"

plays right into the hands of the right-wing junta, whose power is maintained by massive denial and insulation from the consequences of their policies.

As far as the DU and any protestors against the Chimp Administration, it is time to get in their faces. We've seen what being mealy-mouthed does to the Democratic candidates.

Any protest within (or arguably within) the confines of applicable law is more than fair game.

[veganwitch]

75. the front of the white house is under construction

penn ave is all torn up and there are chain-link fences with green mesh (with strategic holes cut so you can actually see the white house) all around it.

[truthisfreedom]

13. remember what they did to Gore and his family.

[Catherine Vincent]

17. Yes, I remember and that was a classless thing for the freepers

to do to Al Gore and his family.

[truthisfreedom]

19. i agree that it sucks, actually, but it's actually physically impossible

for me to feel the slightest compassion for karl rove. i think he should be retired from any kind of influence on politics, forever, and preferably out of the country.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

22. What goes around comes around...Rove is getting what he deserves.

[emc]

95. Boy, you got that right---

Next the pig farm in Crawford---what if a thousand protestors invaded Crawford and made it a living hell---and expecially the pig farm---

[Democat]

32. Classless or not, they did it so our side has to respond!

If we try to be "nice" while they play dirty, we will lose every time.

Gore was too nice, now Bush is in the White House.

Learn from history!

[progressivebydesign]

20. Why not?

The GOP assholes made life pretty miserable for Al Gore and his family during the recount... why not send some love Karl's way for once?

[PaDUer]

24. They'd never get near

the office..the house is great. at least the neighbors see it all..No one protests if there isn't a reason, and this puke has done MANY things!

[Guaranteed]

30. It IS wrong. Totally agreed.

Hitler, Stalin, alright, you can do that kind of stuff. But this doesn't measure up to that level.

[Occulus]

36. Bull.

If people keep doing this, Rove will eventually be forced to resign. In the middle of the campaign.

I can't think of a better outcome. Screw his family's confort; his political advice has gotten people killed.

Or, if you want a moral reason, we can help his kids by getting him out of politics, as it has darkened his soul, and the apples don't fall very far from the tree, now, do they?

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. You must be kidding

If they keep doing things like this they will hurt us. This is lunatic fringe activity, nothing less. They get one free pass and then the next time they get locked up for serious criminal activity. Does anybody know the word RICO?

[The Stranger]

54. It's not a word.

It's an acronym.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. It's both

It's a floor cleaner and a dessert topping.

[librechik]

73. Remember that mob of RWers who rallied outside Gore's House

in the 2000 election, demanding Gore " get out of Cheney's house" and frightening the Gore family while the election results were still undecided? I think we still owe Rove some more wake up calls on that.

Good for the protestors! Storm the Bastille! When elections and due process are subverted by the ones in charge, what else are you going to do?

[Guaranteed]

138. That was wrong, too. nt

[Occulus]

35. Yup.

And I think it's just as wrong that the Phelps clan protests funerals.

Bah. We can play this game, too. I think it's time to take the gloves off. We won't become what we despise, because we're too good to allow that kind of corruption to truly take hold. But the tactics, now... those we can use.

[The Stranger]

53. I was waiting for a response like this.

Maybe when everyone is in camps as political prisoners, they can just yell at Karl Rove from there.

[mouse7]

11. Rove: "Get out of my yard, you damn kids!"

We have LOTS of protesters going to DC in the months before the election. We need to put Rove's house on the tour map for them all. Make sure Rove never misses a DC protest event again :-)

[PartyPooper]

21. The Iraqis are saying the same thing, "Get out of my country!"

And, Karl Rove engineered Junior into the Texas Governor's mansion as well as the White House! What a joke! What a fraud! He's just as responsible for what evil is going on in the world courtesy of *!

I say, "Get the hell out of our White House, you fascist scum pig!"

If there is any justice in this world, this Karl Rove guy will end up in prison for the rest of his life. Otherwise, he can do humanitarian work in Iraq or Afghanistan for the next 50 years!

:grr:

[dArKeR]

14. Follow them around with DV Cams like they follow and film women going

to abortion clinics.

[Democat]

33. Interesting idea - maybe someone should sit outside his house with a cam

Give these right wing politicians a taste of their own medicine!

You might catch him cheating on his wife (or husband) too! :)

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. That's know as harassment

And I think you would end up in jail.

That anyone on our side would support this sort of activity is a scary end justifies the means kind of logic I only expect on the right.

[el_gato]

59. He should be harrassed

these people need to be hounded OUT of our government

I don't know why some of you want to bend over backward to accomodate these criminals.

[demdave]

69. You don't hound people out of our government, you vote them out.

Your method is known as mob rule and I can't believe you would support that.

[mhr]

78. Boston Tea Party DemDave - It's What Got This Country Going

Seems Our ancestors got it right!

It is time to take this sinking ship back!

[demdave]

89. This is no Boston tea party. Bush isn't Hitler. Rove isn't behind all

events.

While, in your own mind, you may be fighting the good fight you are losing sight of reality. We have presidential elections every 4 years. We will have another in just 7 months. That is how change comes about in this country. Go to the polls and VOTE!

The rabid use of hyperbole only serves to marginalize our cause. This is not the Boston tea party and you are not one of the founding fathers fighting an oppressive foreign government. You are only a person disappointed by an election result and too impatient to work in the process. Give the system the time to work.

While you have my attention, why don't you expound on EXACTLY how you would have us "take this sinking ship back". You appear to have a problem with my suggestion, what is yours? Please include details because up to now all I have gleaned from your posts is the ability to threaten and spout rhetoric. I am anxiously waiting to here your game plan.

[mhr]

93. Wrong DemDave, Unemployed 46 Months, I Am Fighting For My Life

It's great that you are so comfortable and pampered.

Like the protesters, I see the republican policies as ruing this country.

You can take your comfy liberal views of of appeasement and stuff it.

I have not lost sight of reality. Reality stares me in the face daily.

I'd say you are out of touch!

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mhr]

99. Refugee From Telecom And Aviation

Fire_Wire,

You qualify for the most ignorant post so far.

I guess you missed the news that 400,000 high-tech jobs were lost in Silicon Valley.

Or maybe you missed the news that 112,000 high-tech telecom jobs were lost in Dallas TX.

One wonders were you expect these people to find jobs.

By your own words you are obviously clueless.

[Fire_Wire]

102. try saying this .......... would you like that super-sized

[mhr]

106. Fire_Wire I'll Trying Saying This To You Impolitely!

BSEE,
MBA,
Commercial Pilot,
Honorably Discharged Naval Officer.

I am your worst republican nightmare.

Don't even start the personal responsibility arguments with me.

[Fire_Wire]

107. That wasn't impolite...

Well you have lots of great qualifications!

[mhr]

109. And That's The Problem, There are Thousands Like Myself

Across this country with plenty to offer but no place to go.

Every time I hear the republican personal responsibility argument, my eyes just roll and the speaker is tuned out immediately.

There is a jobs problem in this country that many want to deny and dismiss.

The problem is that those of us caught in the jobless recovery are well educated and mad.

We won't be supporting republicans and republican policies.

And we don't mind making people like KKK Karl Rove feel the Heat.

[demdave]

108. I guess you missed the entire last paragraph of my post.

I am still waiting to hear what your plan for taking back the sinking ship is. After having read all your impressive accomplishments, BSEE and all, I am sure you must have a well thought out plan.

[mhr]

119. Here It Is Dem Dave!

What We Should Do:

1. Eliminate all H1-b L-1 visas.
2. Apply punitive damages to any US corporation that sends jobs overseas.
3. Reinstate a regressive tax that accounts for the marginal propensity to consume and real cost of living in the US.
4. Enact a living wage law that is indexed to inflation.
5. Enact campaign finance reform that outlaws political campaign contributions from corporations and caps spending on campaigns.
6. Eliminate corporate person hood in law.
7. Implement a national health care policy covering a all Americans.
8. Eliminate all trade agreements under NAFTA and the WTO to be replaced with individual bi-lateral agreements with trading partners.

That's a good start!

[demdave]

125. How do you do any of that without voting?

While it is all well and good that you can get double duty out of the same post from the Safeway thread, it hardly addresses the issues that I raised. You talk about purging, spilling blood and mowing people down. Those are the plans I am talking about, not a list of trade policies. How do you plan to get power to implement squat if you don't think voting will get you there.

I suspect you, and at least one other on this thread, are simply full of bluster and bravado, to name but a few ingredients. Everyone has plans for spending a million dollars, few have plans for obtaining it first.

Let's here the details as to how we take back the sinking ship.

[mhr]

128. I Vote Religiously, I Gave You The Actions That Need To Be Taken

To redress real grievances and distortions in our country and government.

What more do you want?

By the way I have walked my precinct registering new voters. Have you done the same?

I believe in democracy but not corporate feudalism.

However, corporate feudalism has become so entrenched in our government and society that normal democratic processes have become mute and are ineffective.

When one side controls all branches of government, the media, the bulk of the wealth and capital, and control over jobs, alternate measures must be used to redress the imbalance.

I don't see a revolution eminently, but I do see it somewhere in the future if the republicans and corporations are not brought under control.

[joycep]

112. Maybe you have forgotten---

But we voted last time and what good did it do?

[demdave]

113. Fine, since mhr is afraid to put forward his plan, I will ask you the same

Since you think voting is NOT the way to go.....what is your plan?

[mhr]

129. Replied With Plan And With Voting Comment

I do vote zealously and often (online polls).

Since you criticize us for not having a plan that suits your tastes, where is your plan?

[demdave]

136. I thought I made it clear that I believe in voting.

I also have worked the polls, religiously :evilgrin:, for well over a decade. That is the process that works. Too many people around here think sitting in front a computer and spewing revolution is the way to enact change. I think they are whiners with too much time on their hands. When folks talk about "mowing" others down, they are showing how out of touch they really are. You may quote Thomas Jefferson till you are blue in the face but that doesn't make you a visionary any more than quoting the bible makes you Christ.

[mhr]

137. Dem Dave, I Never Claimed To Be A Visionary, Just A Pragmatist

When elections no longer matter because of BBV,

When people are marginalized by feudal corporatism,

When one party rule dominates through propaganda and media mind control,

I say it is time for change.

If that results in a revolution, then so be it.

One does not have to be a "visionary" to say these things.

These are all pragmatic observations and conclusions.

You can dismiss them out of hand if you wish.

You can also go on believing that the current powers that be are benevolent.

If you did so, that would make you a fool.

Some of us are tired of being played for fools.

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. Wow, a voice of sanity and reason

We can't have that.

[mhr]

131. Sure We Can, But When Voting No Longer Works aka 2000 Election

What does ones vote matter?

BTW before you flame, I vote religiously and also recruit new voters via registration.

Have you done the same?

[Muddleoftheroad]

133. Funny

Atheists here complain if I say I vote religiously. ;)

2000 was one election. There were still numerous smaller elections -- congressional races, local races, governors, etc. Let's do it all again this year and see how it goes.

And yes, I actively lobby and get out the vote.

[mhr]

134. To Be politically Correct Then, I Vote Zealously

Does That Make Things Better?

Some may be willing to get over the 2000 election, I am not.

There is plenty of evidence from Bev Harris to suggest that the 2002 mid-term elections were tampered with as well.

With BBV how will anyone ever tell?

The solution to BBV problem is the Australian approach.

The government let a contract for the development of a national voting system and all software was vetted in an open source review process.

This is just one more example of how wrong things are in the US where everything must be privatized including the counting of votes.

Remember always what Stalin said:

"The people who cast the votes don’t decide an election, the people who count the votes do."

[9215]

66. ............

you only expect it from the Right?

Well, maybe its time they get a dose of their own medicine.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. I oppose civil war

It doesn't work. Sorry, but most of this nation is NOT evil. They are our friends, our coworkers, our neighbors and the folks we see at the mall. Together we are Americans and face a very small number who are a problem.

This kind of behavior will turn ordinary folks against us. Sane people oppose mob rule.

[thebigidea]

148. either that or "journalism"

[9215]

65. DAMN GOOD IDEA!!

The fascist bastards have broken every rule in the book when it comes to privacy and harassment. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Fovea]

18. What a wonderful idea.

I think that Karl should get a bit of regular attention from every group he has screwed.

[Dover]

23. EXCELLENT! Now on to their sponsors at various corporate headquarters!

I think people and politicians need to keep up this offensive barrage and not let them even sit down, let alone gather any momentum.

[VeniceBeat]

28. And Then He Shut the Door in Their Faces

after agreeing to talk to them if they loaded the protesters back on the buses and sent them away. Bait and Switch! A familiar Rove tactic!

And I love this image:



Palacios said that Rove was "very upset" and was "yelling in our faces" and that Rove told them "he hoped we were proud to make his 14-year-old and 10-year-old cry."

A White House spokesman said one of the children was a neighbor.



Karl Rove has a kid? Send good thoughts to that poor kid; a dad like Karl must be a burden.

[NJCher]

31. scum in the 'hood

What better way to make the neighbors realize what scum they have living in their neighborhood? Such practices should be de rigueur for those who are incapable of empathy, such as Rove. One cannot ask Rove to imagine what the shoe is like on the other foot. One has to show him and this is how it's done.

Make him persona non grata. The pasty-faced creep should not be able to live anywhere with civilized people.

That last line of the article is especially chilling. Shows what a sociopath he is.

I really liked your point, dARkeR.


Cher

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. Rove needs people who will do the work for less than American workers

are doing it now. He needs to import cheap labor in order to backfill the void that he helped create through outsourcing. And the fact that they're now getting so bold to storm his house is very, very interesting.

You want to know how patriotic and committed to this country the Bush Administration is? Not only have they dismantled public services, but they are also circumventing labor guarantees that American workers fought so hard to establish in this country. And the Bush Administration is doing it by importing their own voter block. Hispanic immigrants.

What I find so heinous in all this is that Vicente Fox has enough resources to keep his people happy in his own country. But he needs to fight corruption, cronyism and nepotism in order to succeed. Instead, he's taking the lazy way out by exporting people who could otherwise challenge his leadership; and by sending them here, he's directing them into a volatile environment where they'll surely find conflict and hardship. That's no way to treat people who are peaceful at heart.

[DiverDave]

39. GET OUT OF CHENEY'S HOUSE!

Sound familiar, KKKarl?
How do you think President Gore's kids felt, hearing that?
rove is a scumbag, he deserves this kind of treatment.
I say BULLY! for the people who did this.

[Junkdrawer]

44. Why, that's (titter titter) just (he he) terrible (BWA HAAA HAAA)...N/T

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

50. Aww they made Rove's kids cry- Boo freikin' Hoo

Rove is scum. People should be hounding him on his lawn every minute of every day.

GOOD FOR THEM!!!!

[snippy]

71. Rove did not care about hurting McCain's daughter in South Carolina.

What an odious fuck.

[seventhson]

56. Remember James Hatfield. Rove destroyed HIS family's life

and probably ordered up the HATFIELD "suicide"

I have no pity whatsoever for Rove. He is a traitor and has supported the deaths of tens of thousands.

He SHOULD be on trial as a Nazi propaganda minister.

a protest on his front sidwalk seems very american and really WAY too easy on him.

If people violate the law (and go on his property, he has rights too.

But a protest in a public place outside his own is jiggy with the law and with the constitution and with me.

[el_gato]

60. poor poor Karl Rove, that filthy piece of slime

he deserves all the hell he gets

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

61. I bet he'll get plenty of it

If he's really a Christian he's gonna have a lot to answer for. Like thousands and thousands of people murdered!

[terisel]

62. NPA-Its aims and Leaders-Chicago

I guess people from Chicago are aware of this group. Sorry to say I was not.

I believe that the FBI would certainly be following this community activist group and would have known they were heading for Washington and specifically to Rove's house and Chao's house. So I believe they were allowed to get close on purpose and Rove expected to have a pro-Rove/anti-demonstrators press story.

Going to the enemies camp:

http://www.disclosure-us.org/disc-july-conference2002/special-going-to-the-enemies.htm

[truthspeaker]

63. Rove has a house?

I assumed he slept hanging upside down from the roof of a cave.

[9215]

67. What if we could keep Rove awake all the time?

Then he wouldn't be able to do his "job", hee, hee.

I likes that idea. :bounce:

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. You would and should go to jail

It's a private neighborhood. There are noise ordinances and you would be charged with harassment. And, depending on where you did it, some of his neighbors might also kick your ass.

[9215]

118. But I don't likes him!!

He tricksies US!!

:bounce:

[DiverDave]

140. Really?

I'll tell you something.
I am THROUGH laying down, somebody comes at me or my friends to cause any hurt, they are gonna get all my pent up frustrations taken out on there sorry asses.
And you don't approve protesting it to his home?
KKKarl was most certainly behind the Gore demonstrations.
What's good for the goose is good for the fascists.
Bring em on, I could use some stress relief.

[9215]

142. and both goosees and fascistis tastes

good cooked!

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. Two wrongs and all that

What was done for Gore was wrong. I don't support lowering ourselves to that level.

[9215]

146. What about giving someone a dose of their own

medicine?

[terisel]

72. Modus Operandi of Bush/Rove

I do think this signals the beginning of trying to invite or provoke demonstrators into actions that will seem scary or violent to the wavering or undecided voter.

If one looks at the political actions that the Bush Campaign and Bush white House has been accused of, and we throw out the most extreme accusations I think a pattern emerges. I also think it will be difficult for them to change their pattern because it has been successful to date. They will be trying to carry out their original plan-these are "plan your work and work your plan people"-and it will take awhile for them to realize they have to change their approach.

"Let it Happen on Purpose" does seem to be part of a pattern.

1. the ad agency registered-Democratic secretary who was caught mailing a debate tape to Gore may have been part of this pattern
2. 9/11
3. this Demonstration

The Victim/Underdog or "Our man/side is the one being bullied"
1. Mean Gore is bullying George W in the Debates-Bush is a meek guy and Gore is standing over him trying to bully him. Elicit sympathy for Bush
2. Gore is trying to steal the election from us.
3. This angry mob is out of control and violently attacking a presidential adviser and a cabinet member. Since Rove may become an even more public figure in May when the Wilson book comes out,positioning himself as an underdog may be what he wants.

I think a big part of the work plan from here on out is to provoke angry demonstrators and let them get close enough to seem threatening-I suspect Bush,Cheney, and Ashcroft will never allow themselves to be confronted close-up with demonstrators but the "first amendment zone" rules for other figures in the administration will be loosened.

Nevetheless this seems like a stong group of demonstraters who should be given gredit for their nerve and their organization.

[John_H]

90. These folks are fools and KKKarl was loving every minute of it.

Fat Karl inside calling every reporter and TV camera in DC to come on over, to film people invading his yard, probably saying they were
Kerry activists, firing up the base over a bunch of ferners invading a man's property.

Proof? "police and secret service...joined the protersters." If rove really wanted them off his property all he had to do was say one word to the cops, and they'd all be told to leave or face charges of trespassing.

What these people want is reasonable, moral, and just but their methods just made the majority of people reading the story think, "Jeez, I know the guy's probably an asshole, but they scared to death."

[9215]

135. "Stop children, what's that sound, everybody

looks what goin' down...."


I disagree; this draws attention to Rove and people start asking questions.

[CBHagman]

98. I wouldn't do such a protest myself, but...

...considering how ruthless Rove is and how many lives he's ruined, there's a strange sort of justice to this.

And he said his children were frightened. I hope they understand what a truly revolting person their father is.

Again, I wouldn't do a demonstration like this myself. But it proves again how the GOP can dish it out but can't take it.

[0007]

114. Karl Rove is not the normal citizen in normal times...

and nobody in the world knows better than Karl how Vulnerable he is to an angry mob. Yet this mob was not armed or violent, perhaps the most damaging incident, they tapped on his windows and walk on his property. Did he handle the situation like a polished politician? No, he acted like the coward he is, and ran to the phone. Rove acted like the complete asshole is he.

[yellowcanine]

117. I know it is wrong but I still had to laugh at this one

I don't think people should be harrassed in their homes for their official activities. However, I did find this very funny. For more poetic justice, a protest on the lawn of John Ashcroft might be appropriate as he doesn't respect the right to privacy for anyone else, so why should we respect his?

[dave29]

130. Regardless of legality

it happened. Nothing can change that - and it was a direct result of Rove ignoring the requests for a meeting. For every action (or inaction in this case) there is a reaction, and quite often that reaction is unpleasant. Of course we shouldn't celebrate this kind of activity - it is wrong - and illegal. I do feel for the kids, just as I do for all of the kids terrorized out of their minds by our bombs falling around them (if not on them).

I would hate for this to happen to me - but then again, I'm not making policy decisions for the country.

Rove, moreso than most political operatives in history has weaved his own impressive web - and now he is stuck in it.

I wish him good luck with that.

[Guaranteed]

139. Look folks...until Rove implements his "Final Solution," his house is off

limits.

This behavior is terrorism, not politics. It's LYNCHING.

Leave politicians' houses alone.

[sangh0]

141. It's NOT Lynching

It's a HOLOCAUST!! How many times do I need to tell you that you shouldn't place artificial limits on your exagerrations?

[kodi]

144. wonder if rove felt like king louis xvi when the bastille was stormed.

.

[Insider]

145. fake, like florida mob

"poor karl, being harassed" let's see what rush says

[undergroundpanther]

147. The state

Can bang down our doors of our house if we look suspicious.
Religionists,political party volunteers, salesmen,bill collectors meter readers,cops,they all can bang on our doors.

Seeing people show up at roves house,Ithink this is how it should be ~for elected people,as part of the job.

If we cannot get the ear of people we supposedly elect,when they do things that imact our lives PERSONALLY,and the"normal" channels of greivances are blocked ,ignored and the government acts more like a secret cabal or corporate board than a group of elected public Servants..well,all I can say is Rove asked for it.
The government cannot be allowed to hide from the people,and by people I mean you and I.

If Rove is made accountable to US,somehow directly,things can get better..if he is confronted only through a flattering cowed press or some commission of his buddies playing cover ass ..he may never be forced to takecitizens seriously.

When government officials are protected and allowed to live and be treated like kings,islated and exempted above the people they tend to exploit the position.

When citizense can act in solidarity this "king" discovers he can be summarily tossed off his throne.How that happens can be anything from an unedited public talk with hostile citizens eye to eye, or it can escalate all the way to a bloodbath.Leadership has character flaws,the culture of power creates corruption,nespotism,bullying, and immorality

(today immoral leadership is masked with word games,symbols of authority and a appearance of upstandingness co-created by corporate money, complicit press and P.R.)
Power lust and power itself really can sell a a human being's integrity ,ethical morality.This is evidenced by a leaderships desire and ability to avoid explaining his motives for his actions that used power to impact other people personally in a bad way.

Since power warps a human beings sense of of right and wrong,sound ethics and basic human empathy, and his humanness is failing him he relies on the public believing in false images of morality while he uses ,threats,secrecy,guards,financial exploitation,divisiveness and lies because he is an immoral sell out with too much power that he does not deserve to have and he knows it..and he does not want to go back to being just another powerless citizen.

What better check to place upon a misuse of power than to subject Rove to accountability~personally~ to those very people who are subjected to the pain of it's abuse and mad about it?

An elected person who welcomes citizens banging on his door asking him questions or embarassing him with what he has done to them in fromt the press is making himself accountable for his abuses of power..and has proven he deserves it because he doesen't want to misuse it.
Rove was not like this .He caught off guard and still he scurried like a rat from the light of day avoiding questions from these protestors who didn't seem to want to attept to put his head on a stick..
A person who is elected who refuses to really listen to citizen's serious grieviances face to face is a chickenshit.To refuse,counsel with citizens in public even while fully protected from death by guns and guards, is a cowardly corrupt asshole.Rove is just is a criminal playing ruler.He's just afraid of what he has done that has harmed other people or made thier lives worse being exposed,questioned,and confronted in public.

So what do I make of citizens politeness when Rove the criminal power abuser faces of a bunch of unarmed citizens coming to visit ,asking questions in a way that looks 'improper'.This horror of the objectiors to the protests,say to me these proper obedient citizens are NOT as frustated with the breakdown of communication and accountability that the OTHER citizens protesting our government's use of it's power.
Solidarity in America has broken down into keeping up appearances fear and apathy and I got mine and nobody should upset MY stability even if they are suffering How Dare those other people confront this government! Middle class scapegoating the poor Because middle class isd still benifieting from the government's corruption...

We all know Rove is not worthy of having that position of power and all that weatlh because we know he wants to use it on us all without our consent or our collective ethical counterbalance.but Most citizens are in Denial and believe they can't do anyuthing about it..We say we do not trust him or the system to listen but we do nothing to change this as if we can't.When someone with less to lose challenges Rove the people who believe they have no power to rein in the corrption of the powerful always will tweak and tremble about revolution and police states..Fuck 'em,they'll come around when they get pinched by the powerful enough to care..

We need to get rid of our conditioned obeyace,our ethical weaknesses those fantasies of security,this fear of class warfare and equality,and get rid of the idea that personal cowardice ,money grubbing,losing integrity,and passive polite apathy towards power can save us from exploitation.
We citizens are responsible for letting our once free press be sold to corporations,for not bothering and fighting for our right to keep tabs on what our government is doing to us,Watching who they are fraternizing with,who is bribing whom,what projects they are doing overseas and why,and throwing our money at them without demanding to know where it goes .Bush alrewady has shredded up our lives,the environment even the constitution with thier misuse of our trust, abuse of power,our tax money and exploiting our apathy twords this administration..Wake up!

Eventually you will not have to be heard by the powerful if you obey,act and speak in the ways as you are "permitted" by the powerful,Fuck their "Free speech Zones" Cross the damn line! Throw that middle finger up at the scary cops there to intimidate you, That "zone" was made to deny power to your voices! Bang on "officials"doors to ask them a few questions! And bring A camera! If you are behaving as nothing but powerless chattel to be abused in thier eyes..than chattel you will be!

Leaders who do not have to mingle with the masses personally,wwho never had to live like we do, under the limits of budgets and bosses,being accountable to others..They can get almost sociopathic. Citizen uninvolement in politics,and political nespotism and secrecy of politicians allow the powerfulto get more greedy immoral,arrogant,vain,machivellian and corrupt, because they are not required to have citizen's morality,they can be monsters behind closed doors but we pretend we must be so above them morally when they abuse our power we become inneffective. This is bullshit.A recipie for opression.

So until the comfortable citizens either get some integrity and empathy or a given a reason to grow some guts and find a new ways to be heard the country is divided against itself.While other citizens suffering more will be forced by nesscity to become more direct and creative in the methods to be heard.Sometimes desperate citizens use questionable techiques to remind the "leader' that the "leadership" of a nation is not playing fair with it's citizens,and taking them for granted,and hurting them and thier lives in a very up close and personal way.

Wanna really stop terrorism? Than impose a citizen's morality on the powerful.Stop standing by or looking away as other people are explioted by the powers , stop obeying, believing,being so polite and letting your power be abused.
NEVER stop demanding personal accountability from your "leadership".If you demand transparency,accountability and honesty out of the government when times are'good' for you,Than leaders know in advance they are well leashed by the vilagent citizen and thier 'checks' on what they do with political power...they are aware they cannot misuse power to make times bad for you and make it good for themselves..without hell to pay. Government is useful on a short leash.Doesen't matter if it is big or small,it needs checks,restraints,balance.And it is the citizens job to do it.Citizens who don't care about others suffering and support corruption as long as they profit from it creates revolutions

Either you politically empower and educate yourself,get some balls a heart and take a risk to stand up with your fellow citizens or you will lose it all. When dealing with corruption of power the nesscesity of informed citizen acting in solidarity with others really is that stark.even if you are not harmed,it's all our job as citizens to keep OUR society peaceful, cotrolling powerful people.That government power is OURS how dare these little men like Rove and Bush hurt us,divide us, remove our freedoms and endanger our health and take lives with it!