After bailouts, new autoworkers make half as much as veterans in same plant

[mike r]

Source: Washington Post

DETROIT -- Among workers building the Jeep Grand Cherokee here, there are few obvious distinctions. Clutching lunch sacks and mini-coolers, they trudge together through the turnstiles at the plant's main gate each day to tinker with the same vehicles, along the same assembly line, performing the same tasks. Yet they fall into distinctly unequal classes: About half make $28 an hour or more, while the rest, the recently hired, make $14.

This oddity, which could become the norm in much of the domestic U.S. auto industry, arises from the jury-rigged labor agreement that the United Auto Workers, U.S. automakers and the federal government reached during the industry's near-death experience last year. Now the revival of the U.S. industry depends on a compromise that some on all sides quietly acknowledge is divisive, among other things, and probably cannot last. "How would you feel if you were on the line humpin' and bumpin' all day and the guy next to you gets twice the pay? How would you feel toward that person?" asked Dale Hunt, a veteran tradesman at the plant and former president of the union local. "Of course there is going to be animosity."

What factory workers should earn became a central part of Washington's prolonged debate over the bailouts of General Motors and Chrysler, pitting the advocates of the free market against those for a "fair wage." Although cutting labor costs was viewed by many as essential to the companies' recovery, the issue was never fully resolved. Under pressure from the federal government and the companies to reduce compensation, the United Auto Workers refused to lower the wage rate for its then-current members. But it allowed all new hires to be paid the reduced rate, along with lesser health and retirement benefits.

At this Chrysler plant in a blighted section of Detroit -- which President Obama is scheduled to visit this week-- the company is handling demand for its Jeep Grand Cherokee by hiring its largest single contingent of "second-tier" workers, the first time such hiring has unfolded in the industry on this scale. Other companies said they will make similar workforce expansions, and two-tier factories are expected to become more common...

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/24/AR2010072402386.html?hpid=topnews

[aquart]

1. Do the execs make half as much?

[pattmarty]

11. Very good!

[24601]

130. Compare the CEO pay today to what it was a few years ago. It's

much less than 1/2 - it's about 16.4% of what is was. $14.4 million in 2007. $2.36 million 2010.

Everyone took a hit and many of the white-collar jobs are just gone forever.

[PSPS]

2. Welcome to the new normal: Small number of billionaires who own the government, and the "lower" 98%

[OHdem10]

3. Exactly. Globalization and harmonization of living standards down

for the U.S.A.

[No Elephants]

111. It still stuns me that only $200K a year supposedly puts people in the top 2 or 3% of earners in the

U.S. (per timmeh on one of this past Sunday's talking heads' shows).

It would be interesting to know the assets and income of the top, say, .5% and what percent of new wealth goes to them every year. those "poor" $200K a year wage earners are not Bohemian Grove types.

[amandabeech]

4. This isn't news to those of us who follow the auto industry.

It is apparently big news to the Post, but then, why have they ever bothered themselves with covering industry.

[flyarm]

5. This is exactly what happened to us in the airline industry during Reagan's administration and the

PATCO strike ..

We went into a A/B Scale of salaries, and benefits.

Those who had seniority had the Higher Pay scale and it remained so for many many many years!

There was much resentment for years ..in the Cabins of Domestic Airlines!

Seems we just returned to the Reagan years!

Just try turning it around..it will take decades!

[cstanleytech]

6. Wasnt this or a similar story atleast just posted like a month or two ago on this forum?

If so (assuming I recall correcty) I even made a post even something along the lines that their still earning more money than some people like my brother who has worked in the grocery industry as a produce manager for 14+ years with the same company.
Are they earning less than the older workers ya but its still a pretty decent chunk of change they are taking home.

[pattmarty]

12. $14.00 hr is a "decent chunk of change"? Try supporting YOUR...........

..........family on that, scrooge. The larger point is your brother should be making more. That's why shit like EFCA and other labor policies HAVE to be changed here.

[cstanleytech]

19. When my brother is capped out at around 11? Yeah 14 is decent.

[pattmarty]

21. Re-read what I just fucking typed. YOU'RE BROTHER SHOULD........

........BE MAKING MORE. $14.00/hr is shit, and $11.00 is shittier. My main point stands.

[Scout]

70. "$14.00/hr is shit"

what world are you living in? what industry do you work in?

$28,000 is not "shit" for an entry level job.

[pattmarty]

73. Excuse the fuck out of me, what exactly do you OWN for a living?...........

............And, more importantly what fucking planet? 28K will not get you very far these days and furthermore where can you get $14.00/hr today the way things are? I have two unemployed over 30 sons now and one 37yo that has worked for a company for 10 yrs that just got an increase (as a foreman) to 19hr and he has to pay for his fucking insurance. Peddle your crap to someone that gives a shit.

[Scout]

94. what do i "own for a living"? fucking weird question, but here you go:

i own a double wide trailer that sits on a lot in a nice manufactured home community.

i own a 1994 jeep cherokee and a 2000 jeep grand cherokee, both of which i purchased used.

i've lived in this area all my life except when i lived in E. Lansing for college.

let's see, $14/hour jobs, there are some here where i work, there are jobs that pay that much in the printing industry where i used to work, you can find jobs that pay that much.... are you qualified for them? maybe not :shrug:

your son makes $38,000 a year, and you're bitching??? he has to pay for his own medical insurance? at least he has it. someone apparently is out of touch with real world, and it ain't me.


my, my, my, aren't you clever cheeks:
"Peddle your crap to someone that gives a shit."
you apparently "give a shit" about my crap.

[Romulox]

81. You can't live in A2 on $28k a year.

Try Ypsi. :hi:

[Scout]

85. no one said you could. just because you can't live in Ann Arbor on it

doesn't make it "shit."

:hi:

[Romulox]

86. It makes it a below living wage in your own community. For one person, let alone a family.

Your ability to empathize with others is evident.

[Scout]

91. well, i've lived in this community all of my life, including when i made "only"

$14 per hour.

so fucking excuse me. i have plenty of ability to empathize.

[Romulox]

96. Inflation: how does that work?

Another ridiculous post. I'm sure you muddled by with what you earned at the South Quad snack bar. :silly:

[Scout]

99. yes, your posts are so filled with fascinating content! yours just put mine to shame....

:sarcasm:

i've never worked at the U of M ... i have as little to do with the Arrogant Assholes from (university of michigan)Ann Arbor as possible. that's why i didn't go to college in the old hometown.

you actually think that everyone who lives in Ann Arbor should make a minimum of $14 an hour? :rofl: how's that gonna work?

[Romulox]

102. My posts have a lot less non-referential anger than do yours.

"you actually think that everyone who lives in Ann Arbor should make a minimum of $14 an hour? how's that gonna work?"

I think that attitudes likes yours are why I left Ann Arbor a few years back, and will never live there again.

[No Elephants]

112. Point is, labor should be making more, period.

the distribution of wealth in this country is nuts and getting worse.

Fighting among ourselves about whether $11-14 an hour is inadequate or not is exactly what makes the very wealthy happy.

Big picture, folks, big picture.

[Romulox]

120. There's no fight here; it's not a living wage in that community.

Many of the people that live in communities such as Ann Arbor seek them out specifically because working people can't live there. I think we may have bumped up against this sentiment, to a degree...

[Scout]

124. ha! now i'm not "working people"

i'm just trailer trash to many on DU.... yeah, i live in a fucking trailer, and worked my way up to your "shit" $14 per hour.

solidly working class all my life, i'll put my years of experience in manufacturing, blue collar, second-and-third shift work up against anyone's.

so take your allegations and shove 'em up your stuck up Dearborn ass. as if Dearborn is much different from Ann Arbor when it comes to the arrogance ...! :rofl:

[Romulox]

125. "You gotta serve SOMEBODY..." -B. Dylan

I don't care about your biography. If you stand against working people, I stand against you. Simple as that.

[Scout]

131. "I stand against you"

oh, i'm crushed now.

you're really something (not sure what, but something).

i stand against working people! :rofl: you make up some good shit, did you ever consider writing fiction?

[Gormy Cuss]

61. Honestly, why is it relevant what your brother makes in an entirely different industry?

With the title "manager" attached to his job, chances are good that he's not getting as big a chunk of change as other produce managers in his same area. If he's in a union he knows what the others make, both working for the same company and for the competition.

Maybe in a few years they'll replace him with a minimum wage "manager." That would be a good business decision and save the company a good chunk of change.

[Romulox]

82. Did it ever occur to you that the cost of living is higher in Detroit than in Georgia-tucky?

:puke:

:hi:

[LibDemAlways]

7. This is becoming the norm. There are 2-tiers for workers in

many businesses from supermarket checkers to airline pilots - thanks to union busting.

Also, because of the shitful economy, employers who are hiring are taking mean advantage and getting away with paying experienced people a fraction of their previous salary. My husband, laid off when his company closed its doors 6 months ago, just took a job that pays 40% less than he was making previously - and he feels lucky to have a paycheck at all. The new company is getting 30 years of experience on the cheap. It's criminal.

[Proletariatprincess]

8. 2-tier wage reductions have been going on for 30 years...

nothing new here. It is indeed a form of union busting and it has been very effective at lowering the value of labor. All workers suffer from these reductions whether they work in a union shop or not. It is a race to the bottom and the bosses are in the driver seat.

[No Elephants]

114. Raygun strikes again.

[Proletariatprincess]

127. Indeed....

That evil old man's curse carries on from the grave.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. Even in the "good old days" his 30 years would not have mattered

Change shops and you are at the bottom of the seniority list/pay grade. Been that way for teachers for years when they change districts

[LibDemAlways]

78. I'm a teacher and the districts I've worked for pay

based on educational level and years of experience. I don't think people would voluntarily change jobs if it meant starting over at the bottom of the salary totem pole. People are always looking for the opportunity to make more money - not less.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

79. Not all changes were voluntary

Military wives are the classic case. The most credit they are given is for 5 years experience and their education level in the districts I have been in. Nurses were much the same. IN Hawaii the schools and the hospitals counted on them to be highly skilled and lower cost. This also limited/eliminated any chance at good pensions too.

As we have become a more mobile society in terms of location and employment, it makes defined contribution plans, vice traditional defined benefit plans, a better thing for more of us. When we get health care in this country to where it needs to be, I expect to see defined benefit pensions to almost go away.

[dkf]

9. The company went bankrupt. The older workers were overpaid for the product

As evidenced by the state of the companies. Newer workers will be paying for all the extras the older generation is getting and was promised and that is their reality. Young people need to accept this and even more because the deficit, social security and Medicare will also fall into their laps. The older generation has been promised lifelong support and they vote.

[sandyj999]

10. Your opinion may not be popular but it is correct.

From someone that has lived near the Motor City all my life I knew this would eventually happen. The union, bless their heart kept making more and more demands. The prices of the automobiles had to be increased to cover it and many of us were unable to buy a car due to the ridiculous cost. So car sales dropped and this is the result.

[PassingFair]

42. Car sales dropped because people don't have jobs.

Or have those $14.00/hr "chunk of change" jobs
like UN-UNIONIZED southern auto workers and
CAN'T AFFORD NEW CARS.

NOT because they cost $100.00 more than the
cars pulling out of non-union factories.

Enjoy your ride to the bottom, you seem to
embrace the itinerary!

[saigon68]

98. They can't afford the Fucking Cars they build

Try supporting a family of 4 on $14.00 an hour

And spend $30,000.00 on a new car

[PassingFair]

108. Did you mean to post to the chap before me?

Or are you agreeing with me?

:hi:

[saigon68]

109. The Chap/chaps before you

[PassingFair]

110. They condemn themselves to a downward spiral.

But it will be OK for THEM, they are
above the vortex....

NOT.

I have some engineer friends that claim to
be "Libertarian" that are also claiming unemployment
at the moment.

[No Elephants]

113. My son pointed to unemployment benefits during a debate with an unemployed Republican.

The unemployed Republican's only response to my son on that subject?

"You're mean."







(My son is one of the least mean people I've ever met, along with his grandad.)

[pattmarty]

13. What fucking universe did you come from? Fix the labor policies........

..........in this goddamn country. It sounds like you're resigned to taking less pay and more shit. What you are advocating is "generational war". What we don't fucking need now is bullshit that tears us apart, the working/middle class needs to come together to fight for better labor policies.

[Cal Carpenter]

14. Thank you

I couldn't formulate my own reaction but you covered my thoughts pretty well.

That's divide and conquer in action. One more line to divide us, to make us forget that we all have much more in common with each other than we do with those at the top whose salaries rise exponentially while everyone else's drop.

Those younger folks need to stop resenting those who did benefit from labor rights action over the years (those very few who have managed to hold on to those benefits anyway), and those older folks who have seen how it works need to teach those younger folks what the concept of solidarity means.

[pattmarty]

15. Yep.

[eilen]

16. Young people are not pleased that they were sold out

by the older generation. So much for solidarity. It was literally the "I've got mine" mentality working there.

[dkf]

26. A bankrupt company obviously doesn't have much power to increase wages.

How is equity created between the older worker who makes twice what the younger worker does? Sometimes it is a zero sum game. You have a certain pot of funds to pay wages and if this guy gets more that guy gets less.

Let's put it this way. A great labor agreement won't increase revenue dramatically. So there is no instant extra funds available just because you want people to be paid more.

[dkf]

22. We can't even enforce our laws to keep illegal workers from flooding the job market.

And Democrats fully support legally increasing the pool of labor in an environment of no jobs for millions and millions of Americans. You ought to know that will push down wages.

The deficit has always been a generational debt from the old to the young. Entitlements too are obligations of the young to pay for the old. How do you not understand the nature of these debts and obligations?

Or is your point that we shouldn't let the kids know about this and hope they never figure it out? Well ignorance is bliss they say.

[pattmarty]

27. Ok, what exactly do you call yourself? Liberal, centrist, leftist?.........

.............The "illegal worker" meme has been played to fucking death already. They are NOT going to take your job IF their employers are FINED AND JAILED for breaking the law by hiring illegals. Make it easier to organize a union ANYWHERE whether you are talking about revoking Taft-Hartley or making EFCA law. Fuck your deficit, all you have to do is cut out the wars, cut defense spending by a measly 50% and have the tax rates what they were when st ronnie took office. SS, raise the fucking cap, FUCKING DONE! I am a true fucking liberal and goddamn proud of it AND not afraid to promote, nee SHOUT loud and clear what I believe. Really sorry if that offends.

[dkf]

31. I'm not worried about an illegal immigrant taking my job I'm worried about them taking your job.

It's a laugh to think anyone illegally here could be in my profession.

I'm thinking about all those masses of people that didn't get a good education and don't have the skills necessary to get an office job. Frankly I don't know anyone who is really down and out personally but I read here about how hard it is and I want solutions. I know that an increased labor pool depresses wages so it is a no brainer to me to focus on controlling the pool to those here legally especially in times of no jobs. 12 million here illegally are jobs and jobs and jobs that could be done by American citizens! It also distresses me to think that a person with no prospects would turn down a job because it is too hard. I reject that and think an American would do it for a decent wage and we need to work on making these jobs viable.

I see a naked play for buying the Latino vote by blatantly circumventing our laws and it disgusts me. I would say that about any population that gets bought for political purposes that are not in the best interests of this country.

Am I a liberal? Conservative? I don't know. But I've never voted for a republican in my life. The more lala land stuff I read the more I think I'm a moderate. Let me make my own decisions please.

I just want for things to make sense and the more I try to reason things out the more I get into trouble here. But I'm trying to stay reality based. Mostly I get on these threads because some of the premises drive me batty.

[pattmarty]

37. Then you are an "elitist" since YOU don't have to worry about "lowly.........

.........Mexicans" taking your job, only mine. I don't need your fucking help, as I am a retired Teamster with a modest pension plus early SS. So save your elitist pity. I really don't see exactly why you are worried then about illegal immigration since your "profession" laughably could not be held by a lowly illegal. You are a real piece of work.

[Statistical]

123. There are many jobs what it is impossible for an illegal immigrant to take.

Doesn't make it elitist just makes it reality.

For example job requiring a security clearance. Guaranteed no illegal immigrant is going to be stupid enough to even apply for that job (regardless of his/her skills).

[Raggz]

51. Competition

A federal stimulus contract for a federal facility involves a lot of dirty shovel work. The contractor legally imported most of his labor from Central America because he wanted labor from there, he felt that the extra expense was worth it.

None of these workers were illegal. They are serious competition for an American who wanted the good pay and benefits they took back to Honduras. Americans had the edge, we cost less, but few were employed. maybe it is time to step up our game?

It is not just for laborers, an Arizona federal contractor is now using Stimulus funds to legally import Mexican scientists.

[mbperrin]

53. "didn't get a good education and don't have the skills necessary to get an office job"

Come out to west Texas someday; learn to paint a house by hand. It pays about $75/hour for the discerning customer who doesn't just want some shit sprayed all over his house and possessions and who wants it to last until the mortgage is paid off. No college required, just about 8,000 hours of practice with left and right hands, acquisition of sable and other specialty brushes, and the physical stamina to hold your hands over your head 12 hours a day. You get to wear coveralls and cuss on the job, and no need to shave if you don't wanta.

Or you could get a bigger plaque on the door of your office in lieu of wages, a new title like "Second first assistant to the executive comptroller" and wear that like a medal.











Yes, I do have a Master's degree, and I teach now. But I had to wait until I raised my kids and paid off everything before I could take the pay cut to be a degreed professional. Never been exposed to skilled labor, have you, just the odd stepford jackasses that pass for it most of the time, I bet.

[No Elephants]

115. "But I've never voted for a republican in my life." Why not?

"I just want for things to make sense and the more I try to reason things out the more I get into trouble here. But I'm trying to stay reality based. Mostly I get on these threads because some of the premises drive me batty."

Here's a clue. People like Paul Krugman and Warren Buffet are very smart and share some of the same economic premises that you see here. So, maybe it's not a matter of your being so much more smart and sensible than everyone else here. Maybe you just see things very differently than most people here. You're entitled. that's what makes a horse race, as "they" say.

[Proletariatprincess]

128. The laws are bullshit. The issue isnt immigration....

the issue is Labor Law. If we had fair and equitable Labor laws there were strenuously inforced, we could open all our borders and and workers would compete for jobs on merit and not be exploited or manipulated to hate fellow workers based on where they are from.

[Raggz]

48. Wht did GM go under?

Why?

What would you change?

[MellowDem]

62. What happened was...

the labor union did what was best for its workers, not what was best for the company's sales or for consumers for that matter, especially in the long run. When the company became uncompetitive, there was no way it could keep up its rate of pay. The labor unions of the auto companies got their great deals when the big 3 were essentially a monopoly. And all the corruption, inefficiency and greed that comes with monopolies existed and led to their downfall.

It's why the labor union took this deal, where its current members (and leadership no doubt) realizes that if they want to keep their job at all, they have to compromise. Unsurprisingly, they didn't compromise their own pay, but rather that of the new members. Their greed and irresponsibility is really no different than that of the bankers, except that their pay isn't quite as high.

Labor unions are needed to counter the interests of the corporations with that of their worker's. But when those corporations are enjoying a monopoly, the workers are just as happy to take advantage of it as well. And they'll also do what they can to keep costly government regulation out as well, while encouraging special treatment from the government, essentially working hand in hand with the corporations to insure their unfair advantage. That's what happened with the Big 3. It's a mutually beneficial relationship, with the consumer on the losing end.

[Raggz]

64. The new guys

Will the new guys eventually come to hate their union leaders? What when there is an election to get rid of their union?

[MellowDem]

66. Sounds like that's already the case...

at least in terms of having animosity for doing the same job for half the pay. It would've been nice for them to cut their pay to twenty one bucks for everyone, but of course I think the company wants the future line to be at 14 dollars, not 21. It definitely will divide the labor union. But then again, a lot of the new guys are probably just happy to have a job and don't want to shake the boat to much. It ain't a labor market, that's for sure. The corporations have workers by the balls. A large unemployed pool to draw from and no shortage of labor.

[madmom]

18. What a fucking crock of shit! The company went bankrupy because of

14th floor executives getting their golden parachutes after making bad decisions. Nice job if you can get it. I'm sure this has been discussed here many times, but you knew that...:banghead:

[dkf]

28. They went bankrupt because of golden parachutes? Lol.

Sure would like to see the writings of the economist or analyst who asserts that. Detroit had crappy products for too long and they simply got outclassed. It looks like they are getting their acts together finally. Toyota did it's best to ruin the reputation of Japanese cars. We will see if our guys can run with that

[madmom]

30. Apparently you haven't been paying much attention, there were many reports of

Rick Wagoner (just one example) getting his golden parachutes after taking GM down. The crappy products that you admit Detroit had were not because of the older workers making those decisions,or being paid livable wages now was it?

[dkf]

35. You have a potential to be paid well if the product you make also does well.

If your product sucks and doesn't sell how are you supposed to get a great wage? Yes it is a rare laborer who has impact on product design but that doesn't mean that you are immune from the fact that what you are putting together doesn't make money.

[madmom]

38. If you are doing your job, it is not your fault if the product doesn't sell. The product design and

selling of said product is the job of other people who DID in fact make lots of money off of their respective fuck ups, shouldn't they be the ones who suffer the consequences?

[boppers]

49. If I'm doing my job, making a crappy product isn't my fault?

That says volumes about american industry. It also explains the trajectory of american industry.

[madmom]

58. Not if you have no control over specs and design, how would it be your fault?

I'm not talking crappy as in faulty workmanship, I'm talking crappy as in design and engineering, stuff that the lay person has no control over.

[boppers]

60. If assembly has no say over design and engineering, the company is f*cked.

A business structure like that often reduces large parts of the workforce to meaningless unskilled labor, and (as a result) tends to turn out mediocre (or worse) product.

[madmom]

63. Have you ever worked at an assembly plant? I guess since it's considered

manual labor it must be meaningless and unskilled, huh?

[boppers]

67. Does a clothing decoration factory (industrial scale embroidery and silk-screening) count?

Since clothing manufacturing is where the term "sweatshop" comes from, for the sake of discussion, I'll offer up my experiences:

The manual part which *was* (IME) skilled labor was programming and repairing the machines, and doing setup/teardown on the lines for different runs.

The production line itself? Not so much, almost all of the art/craft/skill had been replaced by equipment and process, leaving the human component as little more than meat-robots performing repetitive tasks requiring very little skill, or thought.

[madmom]

74. It's nice you think so highly of yourself and your skill, but that doesn't mean that other

so-called "meat robots' are worth less than you. Some one has to do the grunt work and I can tell you from experience just because you think it takes little skill or thought doesn't make it so. How anyone can have such little compassion for your fellow workers if beyond me. I think I'd prefer to talk with "the meat robots",thank you, so good bye!

[boppers]

76. One of us is saying the people are degraded, another is saying the work is degrading.

It's easier to think clearly about the issue when you don't conflate the two.

[Raggz]

101. Everyone at GM paid the price

No one walked away unharmed.

[madmom]

117. Some paid a hell of a lot more for someone else's "mistake".

[DainBramaged]

25. If you think we were overpaid to build cars, maybe you need to take a MASSIVE pay cut

because your job is even more worthless.


Give me a break.

Are you a Corporation apologist hiding out here as a human being?

[dkf]

29. Just reality based.

And I am overpaid considering the drop in revenue. My boss took the hit because he can afford it and without me the show wouldn't go on.

But I'm not overpaid for all that I do. When you take skills into account and the amount of hours I'm underpaid.

[DainBramaged]

32. Right, and my years of experience and physical capabilities

along with my business degree and my technical schooling along with practical experience as a SYSADMIN, aren't worth as much as your skill.


Give me a break. I am sorry to say you are clueless as to the difficulty in assembling an automobile, or even repairing one.


Enjoy your fantasy world. You are typical of the white collar world.

[madmom]

33. So you are a skilled person and everyone else is over paid huh? Do you

"take skills into account and the amount of hours" for the auto workers? Have you even worked in a foundry? Just curious why you think other people are over paid but you are not.
"But I'm not overpaid for all that I do. When you take skills into account and the amount of hours I'm underpaid."

[dkf]

36. Other people who know who gets paid what tell me I'm underpaid.

A few years ago I brought that up to my boss so he gave me a raise. He knows I do a lot and even if he hires someone else they can't do the job because our programmer left pretty insufficient documentation and buggy programs. And most people with our main skills don't have the programming side that would help them figure it out. I know this because when I try to ask around for help everyone knows even less about programming than I do.

As to your situation I hope you find employment soon. I realize that were my firm to be distressed I too would be in a difficult position.

[madmom]

39. But you didn't answer my question. Do you take the skills and work hours

auto workers have into consideration before you say they are over paid? Have you ever worked in a foundry? Have you ever been in a foundry? These are NOT by any means easy jobs and there are lots of people out there who are bashing auto workers for their wages, who couldn't stand to do these jobs for a day, let alone years.

As for me being employed soon, I am retired.

[Occulus]

41. And what, exactly, do you do for a living?

Let's get that out in the open before we even start to discuss whether you are overpaid or not.

I'm not looking for a firm name or anything identifying; a description will do.

[Hansel]

44. So the older workers didn't pay for their social security and medicare benefits?

Because I kind of remember paying quite a bit for them over my lifetime. Then the Republicans drove up the debt so the rich could get richer and now expect that all of the money I paid in for those benefits (which is sitting in treasury bonds right now BTW) be used to pay for their party.

You're spouting a right wing meme, just like the poor and minorities and immigrants are taking all of your hard earned money, now those selfish old people are. Wake up. The money the older generation paid, which is sitting in treasury bonds, is about to go to the wealthy unless voters get a little smarter. The right wants to take that money and pay for their party over the past decade. They want to steal money from older Americans to pay for the tax cuts and money Bush pissed away.

I also paid for the previous generation's along with paying for mine benefits and I didn't piss and moan about it.

As far as autoworkers, during the bankruptcy many of those older workers lost a lots of benefits that they had made concession for throughout their careers. Pension funds being one of them if I remember correctly.

BTW, in what industry do new workers start off making exactly what employees of decades do?

[boppers]

52. You didn't pay for your benefits.

You paid for the benefits of others. It's a Ponzi scheme, where those still working pay the benefits of those who stop working.

"I also paid for the previous generation's along with paying for mine benefits and I didn't piss and moan about it."... That's half right, in that you were paying for their benefits, but where you got bamboozled is that the money *wasn't* sequestered in T-bills. Its all already been spent (and then some), and the T-bills are a hedge assuming that *future* workers will keep paying in.

Remember Gore's "lockbox" idea? This was the problem he was trying to solve.

[mbperrin]

54. Better change your thought. Boomers DOUBLED our contributions

to SS exactly to cover ourselves because we are such a large demographic. We paid for those retirees then, and the additional was put in the Trust Fund, which is now several trillion dollars large and is sufficient to pay full benefits with absolutely no change of any kind until 2037, when the oldest boomers will be 89 (dead, mostly), and the youngest 73 (nearly dead).

All that is required to make full benefits payable FOREVER is an increase in the cap on income now set.

YES, we paid for our benefits, and for those who came before. The accumulation of this huge surplus is what makes it so tempting to the thieves now masquerading as politicians and financial professionals. They jack off every night to visions of getting their hands on it.

[boppers]

55. Whoa, thanks for the rebuttal/pointer.

More data here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

[Hansel]

57. No that's where you are wrong.

The T-Bills are still solvent despite your claim that the money has been spent. Of course its been spent. That's the definition of a T-bill. It's a loan. To the government. So they can spend it. This loan just happens to be from American workers. The government wanted to borrow money, they borrowed it from us by issuing T-bill and is legally obligated to pay them back when they are due. It's not a game and it does not change the fact that I paid for my own SS and medicare. So your statement is patently false.

What this whole SS thing is about is that they wasted the money we loaned them and now don't want to pay it back. Too bad, they have no choice. SS is solvent for quite awhile yet because the T-bills we bought are still there and more and more are bought everyday. But they want to be able to renege on their obligation to pay back the T-bills because they want the seniors of this country to pay for their spending spree and don't want those who spent the money to pay it back. Tough.

Do you care to ponder what would happen if the US government just decided to default on 100s of billions of dollars of T-Bills? Even in the name of just screwing seniors? That would create a collapse of this country's financial system that we would never get out of. It's not going to happen.

I paid for my own and my parents SS and medicare. No amount of pretending that didn't happen will change that fact. Now the government needs to honor the loan I made to them along with millions of other Americans.

[mbperrin]

50. Funny, isn't it, that when the problem is SALES, that the assembly

workers always take the hit?

I mean, could it be the engineers that didn't design a car that would sell? Heck, no, they're degreed "professionals."
Could it be management that called for a car that didn't sell? No, they're all fuckin' geniuses of the universe.
Could it be the salespeople who have made up so many games and pissed off so many people that sales are down? No, gosh no, they're experts at sellin'!

So whose fault is the lack of SALES? Why, it must be the folks that build them to the exact specs called for by the engineers to those same specs approved by managers and put 'em on the showroom floor to be sold by the force!

So, cuttin' the wages of MILLIONS of American workers will improve sales of all products, eh? How's that fuckin' workin' out? Oh, it isn't, but Gawd forbid anyone should mention it - it'd be impolite and hurt the fuckin' feelins' of the betters, now, wouldn't it?

If low wages are good, why aren't they good for management? Do away with bonuses altogether, cut sales commissions, let's get EVERYBODY on the salvation train!!! Glory, glory hallelujah! If only we hadn't quit simply buyin' and sellin' people to work for no wages, we wouldn't be in this mess!

Absolutely no sarcasm intended or implied.

[madmom]

59. +1

[sam kane]

93. +2 nt.

[Scout]

95. the salesman ALWAYS gets his commission, whether the job turns out to be profitable

or not for the company.

i have a very, very, very low opinion of those in sales. sucking customer ass, making promises they KNOW production can't keep, then whining and crying to the big boss when things go wrong, and want production to then re-arrange several other jobs for other customers so his job goes out on the unreasonable schedule he promised.

and no matter what happens, salesman ALWAYS gets his commission off the top!

[Proletariatprincess]

129. K&T+++

[LostinVA]

56. Ridiculous

Being anti-union is one thing on here, but being anti-worker is rather appalling.

[DainBramaged]

71. I may be a shill for my Union, that person is a corporate shill period.

And notice how they avoided telling us their profession. I am tired of the pencil pushers and white shirt set telling me that they are more important than those of us who make things for a living.


Let them buy their shit from China. When the jobs run out, they are always the first to scream for 'theirs'.

[No Elephants]

116. +1.

[Romulox]

83. Remember your words in the upcoming Social Security discussions!

They won't be popular, but they'll be correct! :hi:

[Historic NY]

17. "Wait new hires make less than veteran workers"...yeah it usually works that way.

[tammywammy]

20. That's what I was thinking n/t

[Hansel]

45. And water is wet. Too many on here fall hook, line and sinkers for this crap though. nt

[high density]

65. Seems like a simple idea

In most jobs you do not start at the top of the range. Although this idea was enacted back when people could depend on getting an annual raise for good work, something corporate America has decided to think twice about in the the post-Bush era. They now want people to start out cheap and then work indefinitely for cheap.

[snooper2]

92. I could have started at Chrysler Fenton plant in 1993 right out of high school

Dad worked there his entire career (after getting kicked out of Navy :P )

IIRC starting wage was around 18-22 an hour? Somewhere right in there...Was tempting- I had one friend who did go to work there, his job was to install the liftgate on minivans that were being made there. After a few months he was driving a brand new Dodge truck.

I decided that I didn't want to work in a "factory" job...Didn't want to go through the same routine, same thing day after day year after year- Took classes at community college while working at Pizza Hut and sharing a 2 Bedroom with 3 other folks driving a POS Escort.

By the time I got my first Telecom job (starting at $10.50 hour)my friend was experiencing his first layoff right after model change. Don't know what ever happened to him...But folks need to learn something...

It's NOT 1955 any more--

A factory job is not a career!

[Scout]

69. precisely. that's the way it works. each job has a minimum and a maximum

pay level ... you start at the minimum and work your way up.

:shrug:

what's the big deal?

[hack89]

23. How long do the new workers have to work before they are making $28 ?

experienced workers should make more than new hires.

[DainBramaged]

24. This is what the Southern Pukes pushed for to vote for the GM & Chrysler loans

They INSISTED that the Unions accept parity to what the japanese pay their workers in the plants in their states, $14 an hour, while screaming that auto workers in the UAW were making $76 an hour with benefits (completely untrue but the Country believed their bullshit).


Blame Shelby, Toyota whore and Corker, Nissan whore, for pushing down the wages of the Middle Class in the North.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/rachel-maddow-gops-platform-now-reduce-wag

What are the Republican Senators worried about who say they don't want to deal unless they can break the unions in this way? Besides their friends in Japan, I guess, who have state-subsidized plants in their home states, we can tell that Senator Corker's plan requires even further cuts from union workers and stakeholders in the companies than already have been offered. Blame the workers -- especially, blame the United Auto Workers. That's what we're hearing from Senate Republicans as our auto industry skids toward the brink of extinction. And they're saying if you do save the industry, they want to do it with conditions that break the unions while the industry is being saved.

It appears to me that Senate Republicans are on an ideologically driven union-busting adventure here, that happens to have the prospect of increasing the market share of the foreign-owned companies who work in their states. American-owned companies and the American economy as a whole be darned -- those foreign-owned companies that serve the individual states of these senators who are objecting to this bailout, they're the ones who are getting served.

[malletgirl02]

40. That is a really good point

The Republicans and the media were screaming during the auto bailout that workers were overpaid.Does anyone happen to remember the Washington Post's position on autoworkers wages back than?

[Raggz]

47. Why the bankrupcy?

Why did GM go bankrupt?

There were lots of reasons, but did the much higher wage and medical insurance costs make a difference?

[Romulox]

88. It was a political decision made by the Obama administration, not a legal decision made by a judge

Didn't you follow the news at the time at all? :hi:

[verdalaven]

34. This really sucks

$14 an hour was the norm for workers in the shops (mainly non-union) that supplied the big three with parts. Now that the big three use that as their entry level wage, what will all the smaller shops start paying?

[Historic NY]

43. The whole article doesn't even jibe with the UAW's site....

No one I know gets top of the scale to start. This sounds like an opening training wage.



http://www.uaw.org/node/167

http://bentcorner.com/2008/11/how-much-does-an-american-auto-worker-make/


According to the 2007 GM Annual Report, typical autoworkers earn a base wage of approximately $28 per hour. Following the 2007 National Agreement, the base starting wage was lowered to about $15 per hour.<15> A second-tier wage of $14.50 an hour, which applies only to newly-hired workers, is lower than the average wage in nonunion auto companies in the Deep South.<16>

So once again its bogus to claim it was the bail out.



<snip>
UAW assembly worker's hourly rate is approx. $28.50
Newly hired non-core assembly workers earn approx. $14.25 per hour

GET THE FACTS! ... www.JoeTheAutoworker.com

The corporate media are perpetuating the false perception that the average GM worker costs more than $70 an hour, once you include health and pension costs. The primary reason they spread this propaganda is to paint the UAW workers as a bunch of highly overpaid workers. The corporate media is not your friend. They are being deceptive for a reason because they have an agenda.

The average GM assembly-line worker makes about $28.50 per hour in wages, and by no means are they being payed $44.50 an hour in health insurance and pension plan contributions. The so-called $73 per hour figure is a ridiculous number obtained by adding up GM's total labor, health, and pension costs, and then dividing by the total number of hours worked. In other words, it includes all the healthcare and retirement costs of retired workers.

The primary reason for the difference in compensation between GM autoworkers and foreign company autoworkers is largely due to 'legacy' costs, the cost of a 100-year-old company honoring it's commitment to pay its retiree an surviving spouses pensions.

The hourly wage for a newly hired non-core assembly worker is $14.25, with minimal benefits.

Joe 1-5960
a Joe Autoworker

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_does_a_UAW_autoworker_earn



A lot of other jobs don't pay $14 to start either.

[Raggz]

46. Will fthe non-union car companies follow this?

It is now much better to be a new non-union employee than a new union employee.

Will Toyota, Honda, and the others also drop wages? It will be interesting to watch.

If not - the newer union workers can be expected to be hostile toward their own union.

[DainBramaged]

72. The japanese already raced to the bottom in the South at their transplants

which is what this wage is based on. And newer workers aren't hostile to the UAW, in spite of what some of you think. Non-Union being a benefit is a meme the Right-wing has used to try and break Unions.

Could it be you are non-Union?

[Raggz]

106. We will see.

What advantage does a new worker get by being in the union?

They get the same as with Toyota, so what is the attraction?

The old workers will be loyal but the new ones? We will see.

[naaman fletcher]

68. It's pretty straight-forward

In a global economy wages must come down to the global average or a company will go out of business. This is the new global reality, like it or not. I for one don't like it.

[Psephos]

75. Well said. Your post reminds me of a Sufi saying.

"When a wise man points at the moon, fools argue about his finger."

[Lightning Count]

80. Very accurate. nt

[Romulox]

84. Except it you're' a bank. Then our government pays your bonuses.

Right? :hi:

[naaman fletcher]

87. that goes without saying :) /nt

[Romulox]

89. So, you were wrong. Not "straightforward" at all.

How this played out was was determined by lobbyists and backroom politics, not the "free market" (sic). A cursory examination of the facts proves this to be true. The Obama admin remains in charge of GM, for example, and made a gift of the Chrysler corporation to Fiat.

Not a thing to do with "market forces"--lots to do with power politics and payola.

[naaman fletcher]

90. No, it's market forces.

The details of how this played out don't matter. The simple fact is that globalization will bring into equilibrium global wages. That is hard fact, like the law of gravity. American workers were paid a lot more than most workers in the world. A billion low wage workers were added to the global supply of labor. American wages have to come down or the companies employing them will go out of business.

The details of this bail-out are unimportnat. If the Unions got whatever they wanted GM would eventually go out of business and wages would have to come down.

There is no way around the fact that adding a billion people to to global supply of labor will bring wages down.

I am not saying this is a good thing, but it is a fact that cannot be denied. We accepted NAFTA and free trade and these are the logical consequences of it.

[Romulox]

97. LOL: "The details...are unimportant."

That's hilarious. This went exactly as you described (except for the parts that didn't!) To the extent that your spiel disagrees with reality, reality simply becomes "unimportant." Typical intellectual rigor from self-styled "economists".

"I am not saying this is a good thing, but it is a fact that cannot be denied"

Except if you work in investment banking. Remember? :hi:

[naaman fletcher]

100. Huh?

What is your point? My point is simple: Globalization means global wages will average out. On the side I noted that the bankers have gotten themselves bailed out.

If you have a disagreement with that, please post it.

[Romulox]

103. My point is that your truism isn't true.

:hi:

[naaman fletcher]

105. it like 2+2 =4

But I am open to your explanation of how when a billion people are added to the workforce wages in the US won't go down. Don't get me wrong, I was and am against globalization, but that's reality.

[Romulox]

118. Except if you're a banker, you surely mean.

Your posts are silly because you want to ignore the elephant in the room. We do not have a "free market" (sic) economy; the largest portions of it are based on government directed spending. In that context, to speak of "globalization" as if it were some force of nature is childish and ridiculous. You must either accept reality (i.e. that there is nothing like a "free market" for any good or service in these United States,) or you must risk having your out-of-date ideology fall flat.

It seems like it's easier for you to do the latter. Which makes any discussion with you impossible--it's like the Emperor wanting to discuss the fine stitching on his new clothes with you after everybody acknowledged he was naked. In other words, the jig is up, and your "free market" (sic) cant is falsified by current events.

[Raggz]

107. power politics and payola

Just a normal part of "market forces"...

[Romulox]

121. Yep. The trillions sent to banks? Unimportant.

Even the taxpayers writing checks is the "free market"--that's one way to integrate this new data into one's crusty old economics education.

[MikeW]

104. its called seniority

Sorry but thats how the world is paid ... you dont make as much if you've been working 1 year at a company as someone who's
been there 20 yrs. Even if you do the same job.

[Romulox]

119. Why not read the OP before commenting? Your post is just flat out objectively wrong

This is a new "second tier" wage, not a training wage. You're flat out wrong.

[MikeW]

126. reread what I wrote

Heres a direct quote from the article
" the recently hired, make $14"

Oh and directly from the article heres another one "But it allowed all new hires to be paid the reduced rate" (NOTE NEW HIRES)

Recently hired = new employee aka LESS SENIOR

Let me explain it for you ;

If we both work for company X and Ive been there 10 years and youve been there 2 years .... GUESS WHAT .. YOU MAKE LESS THAN I DO!!!

We both started at the same entry wage but Ive been there longer accumulating raises.

All this is is sour grapes for someone whos not been there as long as another worker ... thats life.

All second tier means is they hired a bunch of new guys at the same time.

[Statistical]

122. Could split the difference.

Give everyone $21 (and up based on seniority)? Some win, some lose. Everyone is equal.