France has first 'burka rage' incident

[demoleft]

Source: telegraph

The astonishing scene unfolded during a weekend shopping trip after the woman lawyer took offence at the attire of a fellow shopper resulting in argument during which the pair came to blows before being arrested.
...
A 26-year-old Muslim convert was walking through the store in Trignac, near Nantes, in the western Loire-Atlantique region, when she overhead the woman lawyer making "snide remarks about her black burka". A police officer close to the case said: "The lawyer said she was not happy seeing a fellow shopper wearing a veil and wanted the ban introduced as soon as possible."

At one point the lawyer, who was out with her daughter, is said to have likened the Muslim woman to Belphegor, a horror demon character well known to French TV viewers. Belphegor is said to haunt the Louvre museum in Paris and frequently covers up his hideous features using a mask.
...
A spokesman for Trignac police said that two complaints had been received, with the Muslim woman accusing the lawyer of racial and religious assault. The latter, in turn, had accused her opponent of common assault.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7735607/France-has-first-burka-rage-incident.html

---

just an accident. the lawyer though must have felt the strength of the law and of her own nation backing her up - the embodiment of the "right" against the "wrong". the veiled woman embodied her private individual right to wear what she wants.
that's why i oppose the ban - i want individuals to be free and mostly i do not want the law, that can't decide case by case, to make decisions even on wearing and symbols thereof.

and good that UK is not following the french line.

Burka ban ruled out by immigration minister
Damian Green said such a move would be “rather un-British” and run contrary to the conventions of a “tolerant and mutually respectful society”.
He said it would be “undesirable” for Parliament to vote on a burka ban in Britain and that there was no prospect of the Coalition proposing it.
Mr Green said he did not think that the French vote for a ban would have an impact on immigration into Britain.
“I stand personally on the feeling that telling people what they can and can’t wear, if they’re just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do,” he said. “We’re a tolerant and mutually respectful society.
(my bold)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/7896751/Burka-ban-ruled-out-by-immigration-minister.html

[SemperEadem]

1. I guess this woman must be ignorant of France's religious history

one would think that the St. Bartholemew's Day Massacre would be the one thing the French would do all in its power to keep from recreating and reliving. This ban is the first step towards revisiting it.

[Trajan]

120. St Bart's Day ....

I learned the word 'defenestration' whilst studying that event ..

[WVRICK13]

2. The Thing That Amazes Me About This Story

is why in the hell would any woman willingly convert to Islam? How hard is it to convince someone to rush headlong into inferior status and subjugation?

[CJvR]

3. Isn't that...

...about the same for all religions regardless of gender?

Women tend to get the worst deal but considering the origin of religions that is hardly suprising.

[Edith Ann]

5. Why would a woman join

a religion that requires subjagation and submission. Ever heard of the doctrine of Christian Submission? I also wonder why any woman of any religion would do this. We were "made from Adam's rib" to walk beside his not behind him.

[WVRICK13]

8. Yeah

I was just making the statement based on this particular story. Being a devout atheist I refuse to play any of those games.

[Tempest]

119. Ah, what's the point. n/t

[madmax]

21. Welcome to DU

I agree with your logic. :hi:

[left coaster]

36. You speak as though women born into certain cultures have any choice in the matter. nt

[Edith Ann]

52. Choice.

I was always raised with a choice. I was grown before I realized some women weren't treated equally with men. Obviously, there are degrees of observance in other religions as well. The Queens of Jordan often go with covering their heads and they aren't suffering any consequences. Every religion or philosophy has degrees of participation. Conservative Christians vs socially active Christians. Orthodox Jews vs more modern Jews. It does seem the extream of these religions want an enormous amount of control over women. Those who are more liberal appear to view women as more equal.

[LostinVA]

56. I think that is actually the wrong question

I can see why she converted to Islam, even though this BUddhist atheist sure as hell never would, but why would a Western woman follow such an extreme and radical Fundamentalist path of Islam? Burkas are NOT a part of Islam, only a headcovering is, and men are supposed to wear one, too.

on edit: I'm personally for burka bans, including here in the US, at least in public.

[MadMaddie]

100. In many cases I don't think that many women actually join

they are indoctrinated from birth that they are second class to the men in the religion.

The Burka in one religion is the barefoot, pregnant second class citizen in other religions.

The one consitant thread is religion itself...

[Recursion]

132. I know 5 women who converted to Islam, and 3 men

Sure, small samples are always dangerous.

[roguevalley]

117. people have free will to believe or not, as they choose. amazing

that free will and freedom of choice only extends to some things for some people. you don't have to like what they choose but it is free will and freedom of choice.

[valerief]

42. Why do people join the military to die in war to support the rich? nt

[closeupready]

125. Why would any woman convert to Catholicism, knowing she is giving up the right to make medical decis

decisions for herself?

[fasttense]

4. I am torn about this burka law.

When the bushes were president, didn't peace activists get kicked out of congressional events for wearing the wrong T-shirt? I think peace activists got routinely thrown out of bushes speachifying events. I strongly disagreed with this Nazis type behavior on the part of the RepubliCONS. So, I, like the british man quoted in the post think there is something wrong with telling people what they can wear and what they can not wear.

But dress has meaning. How you dress can send very strong political and religious signals. Many women are forced to wear Burkas against their will. There is a whole movement of Muslim women who view the burka as discriminatory and abusive. It is not just a religious symbol. It is a symbol of subjugation and abuse too.

If a religion required women to wear signs stating, "Like all women, I'm merely property and I have no rights. I'm so incompetent that a man must control my every move." Would we object?

We don't allow cross burnings or swastikas to be painted on buildings. Yet the burka has as much hate packed into it as those symbols do.

[woo me with science]

6. Good post. nt

[Edith Ann]

7. Cross burnings

We do allow Cross burnings. Ever heard of the KKK. I always wondered why we made such a fuss over the flag when we allowed the KKK to burn crosses at will. I'd be for a law that didn't allow flag burning if it included not allowing cross burning. Try to get that law passed in this day and age. Both are symbols of free speech. What if France banned the wearing of Christian symbols. They too are strong religious signals. Christian submission also requires certain acts from women, some against their will. So Christian symbols also can be symbols that women are property and have no rights. In Oklahoma the State passes laws that are abusive to women, verbally and physically. They do this in their Christian conservative legislature.

All religions have their negative side. We can only hope Jesus' teaching prevail in the end.

[fasttense]

11. If you were to go out and burn a cross you could be charged with a hate crime.

So, in that respect we do not allow cross burnings.

We allow Mennonite, orthodox Jewish and Amish women to wear their religious submissive clothing. So, I'm NOT convinced banning burkas is a good idea anyway. Especially when you consider that persecution of a religion, tends to increase the practitioners of that religion, even if it is in secret. In Poland there were more Catholics under Communism then after the fall of Communism. Banned books in the US tend to sell very well.

So all in all I guess, I'm against banning burkas. But I understand the almost instinctive revulsion some women feel when they see a burka, seemingly to float by itself down a street.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. As many muslims point out, a burka or hijab predate Islam. Its cultural not religious and therefore

should not get any religious protection. A jewish kipa is religious

[amandabeech]

79. You burn a cross on your own property and you will not be arrested.

To arrest someone for that would be a violation of the First Amendment with respect to speech and possibly religion.

You have to do more to get arrested.

The Kluxers are despicable, but here, they are entitled to their First Amendment rights like everybody else.

[msongs]

17. you may wish to change your "we" to "I" - many people here are NOT subject to your beliefs nt

[Edith Ann]

51. Cross burning

is a symbol of the KKK. I don't agree with cross burnings. My question is why, we as a culture, don't have the same disagreement with the cross burning that we did with the flag burnings of the sixties? To my knowledge there have never been any laws introduced to stop cross burnings, but there have been in regard to flag burning. One of these laws was recent and to my knowledge no one is protesting this time around by burning a flag.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. USing the KKK robes as justification, wearing a feature concealing mask is illegal in some states

It applies to the burka as much as anything else.

[jimmie]

34. Interesting point.

i think free speech trumps most others.

[Hugabear]

39. Many of those against flag burning are the ones burning the crosses

Being racist, they're okay with.

[VermeerLives]

73. "We can only hope Jesus' teaching prevail in the end."

Jesus' teachings won't prevail in Islam. They won't prevail under Islam, either.

[Jim Lane]

10. My answer to your hypothetical

You write:

If a religion required women to wear signs stating, "Like all women, I'm merely property and I have no rights. I'm so incompetent that a man must control my every move." Would we object?

I would strongly disagree with the opinion expressed in the sign. I would hold a very low opinion of any religion that required its women members to wear such signs. But I would not make the practice illegal.

More precisely, if the compulsion that kept women wearing the signs were "Wear the sign or we'll expel you from the Church," that would be legal. Any violence or threat of violence, however, would not be.

What about Muslim women who choose to wear burkas? As an agnostic, I believe that their 1,500-year-old superstition is entitled to the same respect as most Americans' 2,000-year-old superstition.

[fasttense]

12. I will probably always find it revolting.

But I agree that banning burkas would be futile and counter productive.

[lostnfound]

14. I agree with you, very conflicted.

And I also feel a little conflicted about protection of cultural norms. The American part of me says 'let the whole world be a melting pot'. But if the whole world melts into a culture that subjugates women or perhaps one that reverses the sexual liberation movement of the 60s..there are traditions of culture worth saving. It's very difficult.

[gtar100]

49. So how do we overcome oppressive cultural practices

except through expressing our disagreement and revulsion of them to the people who practice them? Religiously indoctrinated minds build incredibly strong defenses against criticism. Tolerance and acceptance of differences certainly bring greater peace and happiness for those who are tolerant and accepting. But shouldn't do we draw the line when the practices of others not only hurt themselves but also hurt the cultures in which we communally live? In small numbers, religious zealots can be tolerated but when they take over public discourse and public policy, as they have done and are doing now, then it becomes us who are threatened. There's no easy answers here because violence is so abhorant. But they are so willing to use violence to get their way. Are not liberal values worth defending?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

116. Maybe wearing a ski mask or balaclavas when in muslim enclaves.

Sometimes the only treatment for boorish behavior is behavior in kind. As we have seen with the repukes, the high road may not be the best road.

[smirkymonkey]

123. Interesting idea.

I think the issue is one of completely covering the face. Personally, anyone with a covered face scares me, including KKK members.

[LostinVA]

57. Would we agree with women being made to walk around in shackles?

Well, some would, probably even on DU. I don't think it';s hyperbole to compare the two, for a burka has the exact same intent. I am personally for burka bans, including here. Nowhere in Islam is it prescribed that a woman's entire face and body is to be covered like that. It has no place in a democratic society, along with the practices of the FLDS and other groups. I believe that "freedom of religion" stops when someone's rights are being stepped on. We don't have total freedom of religion or freedom of speech in the US, for good reason.

[noamnety]

63. I don't think we have any right to speak in support of banning burkas

considering we still have actual laws - not just clothing symbols - keeping gays as second class citizens.

[amandabeech]

83. Why can't we speak out about both? n/t

[noamnety]

86. Let's start by fixing the problems we already have.

The ones that are actual laws that are bigoted.

Sometimes when I see the threads about burqa restrictions they come across as the log in the eye. It's easier to point at those other people.

A burqa law would pander to the anti-muslim bigots, which does as much harm to women in the US as wearing a burqa.

[amandabeech]

87. There is absolutely no reason why we can't fix one problem

while trying to keep another one from growing.

[noamnety]

88. This is true.

However, toying with creating new laws which play into bigotry against Muslims at a time when we are fighting wars against Arab nations concerns me.

How about this?

Step 1: Stop killing Muslims in their own country.
Step 2: Worry about what they are wearing.

[amandabeech]

94. I would love to stop killing Muslims period.

I would also love to get out of their countries.

However, I am female, and I have serious concerns about the subjugation and symbols of subjugation of women whether it be "cultural" or religious. My concerns include both Islam and the Southern Baptist Convention.

[noamnety]

101. With the current anti-Muslim hysteria in the US

I have a hunch making laws that are perceived as being against Muslims will make things worse, not better for women.

Sort of like how "English only" laws are sold as being for the good of immigrants, it betters their lives ... while underneath the real thing it does is add a sense of legitimacy to the anti-immigration frenzy.

[amandabeech]

102. Please explain in detail your comment that making laws

that are perceived, by somebody like you, I guess, as being against muslims will make things worse, not better for women.

And for the record, please state whether you are female or male.

[noamnety]

105. Once you start demanding personal information from me on a forum

"for the record" I tend to put you in aggressive stalker territory. Sorry.


We're done here.

[amandabeech]

109. I am not a stalker, but I do believe that a poster's gender is extremely

relevant in a discussion of what will or will harm one gender, particularly if one asserts that the gender to be harmed is not his or her own.

Good evening.

[Chan790]

108. Would you forbid women the right to walk around in shackles if they chose to?

I'm not being snarky, I swear.

I live in a community with a large Arabic population and some members of the community do wear the hijab or the burka. If you ask them, they tell you they are not being forced, they choose to as a signifier of their beliefs. I'm uncomfortable saying they're right or wrong since they're choosing that...but I can tell you that if Silver Spring enacted a burka ban the angry mob burning down city hall would be led by women whose views on the personal autonomy and freedom of women are not less passionate than your own, just diametrically different in application. The only people they think are trying to oppress them are the people trying to ban their burkas.

We don't really have to understand them or their beliefs to know that our efforts to "liberate" them are not necessarily welcome. Whether their beliefs are legitimate or rooted in tradition is possibly not relevant if curbing those beliefs means imposing on their individual liberty. (I note this same argument was posited today in different words as justification for withdrawal in Afghanistan which I oppose.)

Is voluntary submission truly oppressive or merely symbolically so?

I could go either way. The question is far larger than burkas or religion beliefs, it has freedom of expression ramifications and extends into privacy concerns as well. If it's legitimate to tell women that they can't wear the veil, is it legitimate to tell them they're not allowed to practice bondage or submission-play in their own bedrooms because their being tied-up demeans other women? (That might seem tangential but you did broach the topic with the shackles.)

[Recursion]

131. The solution to one group of men telling women what to wear...

...is not another group of men telling women what to wear.

[jberryhill]

146. So you would ban this:

Here is a woman leading another woman in a collar and leash in public:



Should that be illegal?

[provis99]

127. the burka isn't religious; it is strictly cultural.

Islam says only that people should dress "modestly". Syria has just banned face veils, for example.

[Recursion]

130. Well, it's a culturally-specific means of fulfilling a religious obligation

The fact that it wasn't invented as a religious garment doesn't mean it has no religious significance now. There are as many ways of fulfilling hijab as their are Muslims; most of those ways are strongly informed by culture (plenty of Indonesian women -- and lest we forget, demographically Islam worldwide is overwhelmingly an Indonesian religion -- don't do anything in particular to their hair and simply "dress modestly and soberly" as the occasion suits).

[Amaril]

128. We might object, but......

.....do we have a right to ban it?

This is no different than when schools banned Pagan children from wearing pentacles on school grounds. Their rational was that they were "disruptive" because of their "demonic" nature (which, of course, they are not).

Who are we to decide what is and isn't appropriate when it comes to someone else's religious symbology? I think the crucifix is a horrible and frightening symbol that glorifies torture and abuse.......but who am I to tell a Christian that they can't wear something that sacred and deeply ingrained in their belief system because it offends "me"? It's none of my damn business.

We see the burka as a symbol of subjugation and abuse, and I would throw my whole hearted support behind any group of Muslim women seeking to abolish the burka........but unless I know a Muslim woman is opposed to wearing it, then I have no right to tell her she can't.

[SunnySong]

9. So all the lawyer did was say something nasty?

That makes her an asshole... I am surprised it makes her a criminal.


The burka wearer apparently did physically assault the lawyer however.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demoleft]

18. "The burqa babes of Islam". after reading your post i had to check i was on DU still. n/t

[Richard Steele]

137. Yes, that was the most childishly hateful stream of verbal diarrhea I've seen in a long time.

Sadder yet: unlike DU back in it's heyday,
I'll bet the hideous excuse for a human being
who posted that is still a DU member tonight.

Wish I had thought to save it to disk before it got deleted.

[demoleft]

141. oh it was not worth a Kb, really. agreed. n/t

[bitchkitty]

31. WOW

I don't normally see such blatant racism and misogyny here.

I do not like sharing aisle space in crowded stores on Duke Street in London with thousands of burqa babes adorned in their dirty smelly flowing puptents of stench with beady eyes peering out at the world.

The stench of your hatred is far worse than any perspiration.

[madmom]

16. I was wondering the same thing but according to the story, she did more....

..."An argument started before the older woman is said to have ripped the other woman's veil off. As they came to blows, the lawyer's daughter joined in. ".....
from the link in the op.

[SunnySong]

19. Well thats crossing the Rubicon... I have no patience for physical assault, nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Allowable speech in France is not what it is in the US.

Even the US has some restrictions as well (fighting words doctrine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words

[SunnySong]

38. Yes I do realize that other countries don't share some of our freedoms...

It still surprises me though.

[BillH76]

45. Women can't be a**holes.

Only men can be a**holes. Women can be b**ches and men can be p**cks, but only men can be a**holes. Why is that? It's got something to do with the metphorical meaning of the word "a**hole."

[izquierdista]

15. If God tells you to dress like Bozo

Don't be surprised or offended when people laugh at your orange hair.

[LynneSin]

20. Sorry I side with France on this law - this isn't about religion it's about controlling women

Maybe I'm being intolerant but I see the full 'burqa/hajib' here in Delaware and I what I see is some man trying to control is woman. I do respect that some women wear just a scarf around their head, there are certain Christian organizations that require certain headwear and hairstyles. But the Koran never talks about hiding women behind blankets - that is nothing more than man trying to repress women.

I understand this is the norm in Arab countries but these are countries that have the worst conditions for women in the world.

I was driving home from work the other day in this horribly hot and humid weather and I saw a man walking with a woman in full burqa/hajib robes. That was just WRONG and it was nothing more than that man trying to force control over woman. I see no difference between forcing a woman to wear this awful contraption than a man beating the crap out of her. Either way he's trying to show the woman who is 'boss'

[demoleft]

22. i see your point. i just feel uneasy when law meddles too much in the private life...

...of people.
what if burka is a woman's choice? why should her individual right to wear it be violated?
we confer values to garments and symbols from our own points of view, disregarding the other points of view. there's some euro/west-centrism in this, in my opinion.

"ban" is a verb which is beloved in theocratic countries. democracies prefer "allow".
thanks for your post.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. The same could be said for KKK masks. Would you support that as well?

What about balaclavas or ski masks for that matter.

[demoleft]

37. kkk masks have only one meaning. burka has more than one...

...at least to the women who choose to wear it.
i'm for respecting the will of those women: perhaps they would tell you that their veils do not represent a violent symbol of hatred.

a kkk member would find it hard to do the same.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. What about ski masks? Also burkas are to some the symbol of a violent suppression of women

The recent laws against masks in various US jurisdictions included burkas, whether they meant it or not. If we allow burkas, KKK hoods, ski masks, and balaclavs will have to be allowed.

US law requires accommodation for religious beliefs but since burkas are cultural, not religious, there is no current legal requirement to accommodate them.

[demoleft]

62. as to US, mr crowley already expressed against france on the burka. see my #47.

for the rest, burka is also a (cultural, if you want) relation between the bearer and the world/society - and in this there should be no law meddling.

"Here in the United States, we would take a different step to balance security and to respect religious freedom and the symbols that go along with religious freedom" he(crawley) said. (my bold) - which recognizes to the burka the right to a discretion as part of a personal sphere of religious/cultural position.

[w4rma]

24. Agreed. They should be banned. They are instruments of sexist control. (nt)

[Edith Ann]

54. You are passing judgment

on a group of women and inflicting your beliefs on them without any input from them. They have been taught from birth that their clothing is a symbol of modesty and now you want to rip it off of them so they can see the light. You're giving them no choice just like Oklahoma's oppressive and abusive laws against woman give us no choice.

My guess is that the French government knows that with the passage of this law there will be a mass exodus of Muslims from France. (Except for the extremely rich ones of course.) This is just as anti-anti-immigrant as the laws we pass against the Hispanics.

We have no right to choose a religion for a person or to tell them how to practice their religion. Most learn their religious practices from their parents and family. When they grow up they may choose to change or stop practicing but it should be their choice, not the laws choice.

I believe T-shirts with religious slogans and pictures of Jesus are blasphemous. Does that mean we need a law to stop people from wearing them? No! I'm one person who has one believe. I'm not in charge of the rest of you.

[Mz Pip]

28. I pretty much with you

on this one. It is about domination and control of property.

What amazes me is that there is no "dress code" for the men. I have seen so many couples with the woman fully covered from head to toe and the guy has on tight jeans and his shirt is unbuttoned halfway down his chest. A bit of a double standard going on there to say the least.

[louis-t]

41. Actually, there is. Beards, haircut. Not a dress code

but 'appearance code', if you will.

[JVS]

59. This law isn't about liberating women, it's about putting foreigners "in their place"....

and having them conform to ethnic French norms.

[LynneSin]

65. If they banned the scarf that women used then I could see that

I have no issue with just the scarf that covers the hair but not the face. There are other non-Muslim religions that have both men and women wearing certain hats/caps/scarfs and other items. I'm not even opposed to certain religious outfits provided that both men and women are treated equal. The Amish here in Pennsylvania wear wool outfits all year round but both them men and women wear these items.

This is forcing a woman to cover her ENTIRE body from head to toe. I know here in the states I'll regularly see women like that and usually they are with a man who is dressed in regular street clothes.

These Hajib/Burqas are NOT a part of the Koran. Koran scholars have repeatedly pointed out that there is no reason to wear anything more than a scarf over the head. This is about repression - that's just the way it is. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for these women to cover themselves to the point that only their eyes can be seen just to make their partner, a man, happy. I see no difference between that and if the man beat the woman. He's trying to control her and I applaud the French government for recognizing that.

[Recursion]

149. There are widely-respected hadith that mandate covering everything but the eyes

They obviously aren't universally accepted, but it's not out of nowhere.

This is forcing a woman to cover her ENTIRE body from head to toe.

You say they are being "forced". Do you have any evidence for this other than your own dislike of the clothing? I mean, you or I would have to be forced into wearing it. Not so everyone.

[VermeerLives]

75. Agree completely

No one is asking of what happens if a woman/girl decides she does NOT want to wear a veil or burqua? Does she have a say in the matter? Certainly not in Saudia Arabia or Iran, where the "morality police" are ever present.

Never mind that this is "cultural" or may or may not be a part of Sharia law(i.e., Islam, because you can't have one without the other; Islam IS Sharia law). This is exactly why I have a problem with those who say they should be free to wear it. Are they free to choose not to do so?

[LynneSin]

91. Their only choice with not wearing them is this.....

Don't wear them and get the crap beat out of you.

I can't believe people put religious 'freedom' over the rights of women.

[Recursion]

133. So the solution is for the state to control what women wear?

I understand this is the norm in Arab countries but these are countries that have the worst conditions for women in the world.

By most measures I've seen the worst country for women in the world* is Nepal, which is primarily Buddhist and has no particular dress restrictions (though the climate imposes plenty of its own).

* Excluding countries currently at war; war is always worse on women than on men.

[LynneSin]

139. So if the man wants to beat the crap out of the woman, the Government should not interfere

Don't kid yourself, every Burqa style outfit you see on a woman there is usually a man right beside her forcing her to wear it especially in non-Muslim countries.

It amazes me that ANYONE from DU would allow such abuses on a woman. Someone is controlling the woman in this situation, at least the government is doing the right thing and disallowing some man to force her to wear an extremely restrictive piece of clothing that hinders her sight and ridicules her in a society where wearing this stuff is not the norm.

It just galls me - we're a website that scoffs religious fundies and fights for the rights of women, but put a damn burqa on her and suddenly we're the champions of keeping her covered.

[Recursion]

140. Really?

Don't kid yourself, every Burqa style outfit you see on a woman there is usually a man right beside her forcing her to wear it especially in non-Muslim countries.

Well, I can't speak for you, but I've talked to, worked with, and been friends with women who wear niqaab (like I said downthread you almost never find an actual burqa in the West).

[LynneSin]

145. Perhaps you found the exception to the rule

But the Niqab (which is why I used 'burqa-style because for the life of me the name escaped me) is nothing more than man treating woman like a second class citizen. Created by a fundamentalist form of Islam that most Koran scholars say is an overkill of what is written and based more on non-religious customs.

I'm glad you're ok with women being treated like second class citizens but that's what it is. The whole concept of forcing women to wear these repressive contraptions is men saying "You women are not as worthy of us and need to be hidden".

What's funny is if a Christian religion decided to force women to wear repressive clothing on women only, DU would be all over it like flies on shit. But god forbid if it's another non-Christian religon oh how dare we interfere with their choices.

BTW, I have no issue with the head wraps that cover the hair worn by many muslim women. At least you can see their faces and it's no different than the hats and other headpieces worn by many faiths. I also have no issue if both sexes are wearing the same type of religious wear. Amish traditionally wear black wool clothes and plain cotton shirts. But both sexes wear these clothes.

[Recursion]

148. Interesting

But the Niqab (which is why I used 'burqa-style because for the life of me the name escaped me) is nothing more than man treating woman like a second class citizen.

It is?

And your justification for that broad, sweeping claim about the fantastically complex social, religious, and political dynamics of that garment is .... ?

PS. When French schools were having the problem of Muslim girls being bullied into wearing hijab (which bullying I abhor as much as I abhor the state's forbidding them from wearing it), was it A) boys or B) girls doing the bullying?

And once again I ask why are Muslim women who wear these garments not being asked how they feel about it? They can speak, you know. Some women who wear niqaab are University professors, for heaven's sake...

[rainy]

23. The burka should be banned everywhere and here's why:

One walks the world showing his/her face to claim his/her actions. You move with identify not incognito. To cover one's face it to hide and conceal your identity. This is hazardous to your fellow citizens as you become unidentifiable. Everyone should be identifiable for safety purposes in a society.

[mbperrin]

So this high fashion item is okay, but the burqa is not?

[rainy]

110. yep!

[mbperrin]

111. Because?

Problem with the burqa upthread was that it concealed identity. How does this outfit not do that?

After all, France is where the crusades began - even the word comes from the French croix, for cross.

[VermeerLives]

76. Bingo!

I agree completely. Someone who is completely covered up is not identifiable unless that covering comes off. You can't get a drivers license photo unless you show your face. Being completely covered hinders normal interaction between human beings. It's oppressive.

[ironrooster]

25. burkas should be banned for public safety -

The price of admission to a (relatively) open society is that you at the
very least should not wear clothes that completely mask your identity. I would not feel
comfortable standing in a bank line with people (we really would not know whether
they were male or female) in burkas, any more than I would feel comfortable standing
in the same line with people in ski masks. What is the fucking difference?

No, we shouldn't make concessions to medieval superstition (when it puts others at physical risk).

[rainy]

26. I agree 100% see my post above yours.

[ironrooster]

27. Rainy, it's just common sense - I dont see why

so many people have a problem with the idea of banning the burqa. It's not like the veil of the Hindu woman - or the head wrap of the primitive Baptist - or
even the wigs of the ultra orthodox Jewish women. It does not merely alter one's appearance, but completely hides one's identity and it is prima facie a public security threat.

[Old Vet]

35. You would think women would be at the forefront.........

Of dis-couraging the belittlement of a woman.

[jerseygal]

104. Banning the burqa is a public safety issue and I fully support it

I am furious when I see a woman wearing a burqa driving a car. How, I ask, can she see the traffic?She is a risk to herself and everyone else on the road. Would you drive a car with blinders so you could not see in the periphery? This is an autombile safety issue.

I ride the train with woman in burqas and I object to it on a public safety ground. What if a crime is committed on the subway and we need to look for witnesses. The woman in the burqa who might have witnessed a crime is unidentifiable.

It should be against the law to cover your face in public - ski mask, balaclava, mask, burqa or paper bag. Inside your home, you can cover up as much as you want or as little.

If these women don't like it, they are to move somewhere else like Yemen or Saudi Arabia where women don't drive or use public transportation. Or they can stay in their own homes.

[VermeerLives]

77. Excellent comments; you're spot on

I couldn't have said it better.

[chrisa]

142. I agree.

[Haole Girl]

40. This is how I feel about the burka:

The men should have to wear them too, covering every inch of body and face.

Yeah, like that will ever happen.

If the men do not wear them, there should not be a double-standard.

End of rant.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

61. Its not the same thing...trying to equate them shows at best ignorance

[maxsolomon]

43. Last weekend there was a thread applauding Maddow for wearing the hijab

when she was in Afghanistan. Filled with plaudits for 'respecting the culture'.

but it doesn't apply in western democracies. because secular culture is not culture?

[Old Vet]

44. Ahhh, Youre comparing a war torn,extremist country ...........

To France?

[boppers]

66. France has been free of internal strife, wars, and extremists since... er...

Was France one of those places with public beheadings? Multiple internal revolutions? Frequent riots?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/17/AR2010071702646.html

So, since, uhm, last night, France may have become a civilized nation.

[demoleft]

47. US government position closer to UK than to france. and a poll shows france divided:

"We do not think that you should legislate what people can wear or not wear associated with their religious beliefs," said State Department spokesman Philip Crowley.

"Here in the United States, we would take a different step to balance security and to respect religious freedom and the symbols that go along with religious freedom," he said.

(afp, july 15)

http://www.france24.com/en/20100715-usa-tells-france-not-ban-burqa-senate-bill-washington

a recent french poll shows that

(Reuters) - Two-thirds of French people want a law limiting the use of face-covering Islamic veils such as the niqab and the burqa, with only a minority backing the government's plan for a complete ban...

The results of the survey of 950 people were roughly the same for men and women. Support for some kind of legal restriction on the full veil cut across age groups, professions and political affiliation, though it was stronger among right-wing voters -- more than 80 percent of them favoured a law.

reuters, http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-47969420100424

[Karenina]

48. Woik wit me here kids. What I feel is

The burqa and minarets are being seen as a sign of a presence. What they represent is open to interpretation, much the way that the presence of brown faces in Arizona is. I see parallels between how the signs of too big a presence of the "other" are promoting a "white" backlashes globally. The exclusion of the Iroquois Nation from the lacrosse tournament is Exhibit A.

France has a fairly clean case; despite the agendas around the edges, nasty language of oppression and cutting soft butter with a chainsaw for political gain...

This is an interesting discussion from that part of the world.

http://www.france24.com/en/20100713-french-lawmakers-pass-bill-ban-burqa-public-spaces

BANNING IT and making the point on the backs of such an infinitesimally small number of women is not too far away from balancing the banks' books on the backs of the poor...

And NOW, just as the persecutors jumped the gun in AZ, they're doing so wherever this meme has taken hold.

But maybe I'm just a crotchety old lady. :hide:

[hippywife]

53. The whole fucking world

is just going fucking nuts. I can't take much more of this shit. :mad:

[Edith Ann]

55. One Comment

The world should mind it's own business when it comes to personal dress and beliefs.

[hippywife]

58. I just expect that kind of

bullshit here, especially out here in the middle of the country, but to see European countries doing this means that bigotry is now out of hand once again.

[ironrooster]

64. Parden me, but your position assumes this is merely a matter of

dress - when it is actually a matter of public safety. would you be ok if i delivered your mail/pizza/package wearing
a ski mask? wouldn't you want to know who is standing next to you in the market/street/bathroom stall?
what is it that you don't get about the precariousness of allowing any person to hide their identity? don't you
realize that when a convenience store or a bank is robbed, the first thing that the police ask is for the victims
to identity the perpetrator? was it a man or woman - what color was his hair - was he bald etc...
hippywife? yeah right. I'm married to a hippy wife and she sees this rightly as subordination of women - it's not
a godamn personal choice. not everything is culturally "relative" get it? some things are just wrong on any number
of levels. would you defend female circumcision just because it's "accepted" in certain cultures? burqas are
bullshit. period.

[demoleft]

67. you traced a line between wearing burka and all kinds of potential crimes...

...and threats for public safety.
it's not about you personally, of course - but your portrait and words mirror some hysteria typical of our western societies.

[hippywife]

68. I think they should be able to wear

whatever they wish according to their culture or beliefs. As long as it is their personal choice and not being subservient to the men in their families, I have no problem with them wearing them. You do know that some of them prefer to wear them, do you not?

I have met and dined with many Muslims, both men and women, when I was active in the peace community here. Everyone of them I met were very sweet, warm and welcoming towards me. Whenever I see women in Muslim attire, I go out of my way to look at them and smile at them so they know they are not being ostracized by everyone here.

And I will thank you very much not to take that tone with me. You don't know me and we've never interacted before. Please learn to be polite when addressing fellow DUers. It's not necessary to be so incredibly rude.

[Edith Ann]

74. subservient

If you ban subservient or submissive to man you're going to have to deal with the Christian conservatives and Southern Baptist Convention. Oh, I guess they will get an exception.

[ironrooster]

78. Hippy Wife there is a difference between wearing a "hijab"

which most observant Muslim women wear and a "burqa" which is a covering pretty much from head to toe
which CONCEALS their identity. A hijab doesn't conceal a wearer's identity, but a burqa does.
I don't have a problem with a hijab - I have a problem with the burqa.
So what you are saying is that it's OK for people to wear ski masks - hoods - wherever and whenever they
please as long as their culture demands that? That's what you are saying right?
You don't have a problem with people completely hiding their visage in our culture?
Well, if you don't have a problem with that - I quess you and I will politely have
to disagree.

The link below has a picture of a burqa if you aren't sure what it is:
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/17/time-to-ban-the-burqa-french-minister-says-yes/

[hippywife]

90. I know damn well what a burqa is.

And I know that some women do wear them in the strictest observance of their belief, and I will not stand in their way if that is what they choose.

The wearing of the burqa was never an issue before...before "they" became the "enemy." This is blatant discrimination and bigotry.

[demoleft]

138. agreed. and see how paradoxical that this presumed "feminist" sensibility...

...in our highly gender discriminatory western societies rejoices in the replacement of the State/Law to the patriarchal man to tell women what they can wear or not - see how ironically this attitude in the name of freedom confines with reactionary rightist and traditional views.

and as to public safety, the only link between wearing a burka and be a danger/threat to society is public hysteria.

no ban - i'm with UK and US in this.

[Edith Ann]

71. Fear

I'm afraid of red necks in camo who conceal carry, but I don't expect the law to stop them from delivering my pizza.

[ironrooster]

82. Edith, a redneck with a conceal carry permit is still identifiable -

An individual in a burqa is completely concealed and unidentifiable because the burqa which covers from head to feet - it's not a hijab that only covers the hair.
So how about a redneck with a concealed weapon in a burqa?

[Edith Ann]

84. Red Necks

What about the kerchiefs they wear on their faces? The rednecks. I'm not afraid of a woman with a head cover. The Muslim women in Oklahoma wear burkas like the Nuns' head cover. You can see their faces. Just their hair and forehead is covered. Besides the only terrorist that has ever come after me was a white Christian male militia member. Timothy McVey.

[MrsMatt]

92. what you describe

is NOT a burka. With a burka, or a niqab, the faces are completely obscured.

[Edith Ann]

134. Burka

No comments on Timothy McVey just obsession with burkas. TM doesn't fit your idea of a terrorist because he didn't hide his face. No he only hid a bomb in a truck. Maybe he isn't your idea of a terrors but he's mine.

[Edith Ann]

135. opps

terrorist

[ironrooster]

93. MrsMatt is correct a burqa completely covers the face except for

a slit for the eyes. you are describing a "hijab" - and I have no problem with
a hijab (it looks like a nun's habit), but that's NOT what we are debating.
We are debating whether it is OK to completely hide your identity.

Here is the wiki page on the burqa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

If you look at the first picture, the woman who is standing to the left of the other is
wearing a burqa.

[amandabeech]

97. Actually, the burka has a screen over the eyes.

You cannot really even see the eyes through the screen.

The niqab leaves a slit for the eyes, which you can see. The rest of the face is covered as is the hair, and the body is usually enveloped in what looks to me like a loose robe of some dark color.

[proteus_lives]

69. "especially out here in the middle of the country"

What is that supposed to mean?

From Indiana.

[hippywife]

70. I'm from Ohio

and am currently living in Oklahoma. I have seen more than my fair share of bigotry and fear-mongering since moving here. There is a distinct distaste and lack of cultural understanding here for people of other cultures.

[proteus_lives]

72. Well, I live an multi-ethic central Indiana community and I find your broad-brush insulting.

What, you think the Coasts are cultural utopias?

:eyes:

[Fastcars]

106. Does That Apply To Beliefs You Don't Agree With?

Say one of the Christian Identity Churches comes up with a doctrine that their member's faces should never be seen by an outsider. Do we allow them to wear a mask everywhere they go and in their drivers license/ID photos?

How about if my church (if I had one) decided the other extreme is called for and that women should at no time cover their breasts? Will the United Church of the Holy Mammaries membership be allowed to go wherever they want without covering up because it is a "religous" custom?

Governments should have nothing to say about what people where in the privacy of their home. But there are clearly many safety reasons to not be allowed to completely cover yourself in public.

[krabigirl]

Horrible...this woman is like a French version of a teabagger.

[amandabeech]

85. Actually, I'm surprised that this is the first reported incident.

It's okay to be muslim, well, at least for some ethnic French. You can go to mosque or whatever. However, you MUST BE FRENCH!

You recall the French tried to start a French-style Islam not too long ago?

The French are very protective of their culture, and wearing a burka or niqab is most assuredly NOT FRENCH!

Back in the late '70s, in NYC, I recall attending a Thanksgiving dinner given by the then attorney for Renault autos here in the U.S. There were some French guests, obviously. They were raging against U.S. racism against African Americans. When a non-French guest, not me, questioned them about the treatment of North Africans in France, the French simply said, "But they are not French." End of discussion.

I don't think that too much has changed. The French are the French and they will keep their country French one way or another. They have a great and unique culture and I don't blame them.

On edit: Keeping their country French may not be pretty.

[MellowDem]

95. If you don't blame them...

then you can't blame the tea partiers and xenophobes at the border either.

[amandabeech]

98. I can't stand the tea partiers. "Xenophobes" covers a lot of territory,

and I wouldn't dream of trying to cover it.

However, in my opinion, the French have as much right to be French as the Moroccans have to be Moroccan or the Peruvians have to be Peruvian.

Each group gets to decide what its culture is or is not.

If the French want to keep their culture in their country, then I don't have any problem with it. It's their country, their culture and their business as far as I'm concerned.

[MellowDem]

122. Well, Ok.

So who gets to decide what French culture is? That could get tricky.

If you believe that every nation should be able to keep their culture in their country, then Americans should too. And who gets to decide what American culture is? We have a lot of culture warriors here who readily agree with your premise. They have the right to decide what American culture is, and the "non-Americans" do not. Because they're the Real Americans. But we all know where that leads.

The French idea of protecting their culture is an archaic, prideful, bigoted, and ignorant idea. By definition, you will have to subvert and destroy other cultures that happen to pop up in your country. And you will also have to do the impossible; stop French culture from changing and evolving, like every culture does. Not to mention resolve what French culture is, considering the differences between regions. Of course, you do have such institutions that actually make new French words for new things like computers, rather than just using the word computer, because this is somehow preserving French culture. But in reality French culture is not monolithic and is changing and will continue to, and no superficial wording or laws will change that, and that scares a lot of those culture warriors.

[krabigirl]

121. You are correct. I am actually in France at the moment. they are fighting a losing battle imo.

there aren't very many women who wear the burkha or niqab here....I think it's only about 2,000 or so. However, this over-reaction may just make things worse.

I do enjoy it here but I feel it is very xenophobic and I don't care for that part of their culture. it is unsettling. then again, I am just here visiting inlaws so I don't know what it would be like to actually settle here as a foreigner.

[amandabeech]

80. There have been problems between the French and the North Africans

and other muslims for decades. I remember experiencing it when I visited a French friend for the summer back in the '70s.

This will not end soon nor will it end well. For anyone.

[krabigirl]

81. Yep.

[jberryhill]

89. Women who wear burkas should be locked up

That'll teach 'em who is boss!

[amandabeech]

96. Self-delete.

No point in a pointless discussion.

[On the Road]

99. This Kind of Thing Absolutely Baffles Me

am I'm especially surprised at the French with their history of tolerance.

I can't how anyone can support a ban on wearing burkas in public. In the US, it's an straightforward first amendment violation. And the effect will be that women in those branches of Islam that wear a burka will simply not leave the house. How is that better?

As far as converting to Islam, most conversions are catalyzed by knowing people of that faith that the convert likes and respects. And if I had to choose a religion based strictly on contact with the adherents of that faith, I would choose Islam pretty easily.

[amandabeech]

103. The French history of tolerance for non-French living in France?

I'm open to your point, but would you please provide some references?

[On the Road]

107. Well, Maybe It's an Unfounded Impression

While other states were suppressing minority religions, France granted Protestants the right to public worship in 1598. It was revoked less than a hundred years later, but reinstituted under Napoleon. Religious liberty was one of the principle of the French Revolution.

The French were always strongly Catholic, but more laid back than the Italians or Spanish, and tended to hate the clergy. (Although from a Google search, apparently the French were more anti-Semitic than the rest of Europe, at least up until the Nazis.)

According to Wikipedia, the French today are 31% atheist, 26% agnostic, and 25% Catholic, although many Catholics do not believe in God. It's hard to see the French people as a whole getting worked up over religious differences.

Politically, France has given harbor to some people that other Western nations wouldn't touch. Ayatollah Khomeini lived there for fifteen years before returning to Iran during the 1979 revolution.

I might have been wrong about French tolerance. But I suspect this anti-burka law is less about religion and more about the same economic and cultural factors that lead to anti-Mexican feeling in the US Southwest.

[amandabeech]

112. My personal impressions of the French are quite different from yours.

They'll let someone like the Ayatollah Khomeini come in as a celebrity refuge, particularly they are taking refuge from the Anglo-Saxons. I thought that Carter should have sent the Shah to France. He was running from the Anglo-Saxons. He'd have received excellent medical care and no one in the U.S embassy would have been hurt.

On the other hand, they are intensely proud and immersed in their own culture. They have a wonderful culture, and they know it. They think that nothing else on the planet comes close, and they are not tolerant particularly of anyone who does not share their views. They have barely tolerated the North Africans, and many French women have been and probably now are completely and utterly terrified of Muslim men, and I have seen it up close and personal.

Until recently, they have had no sense of shame about their colonial misdeeds, and I'm not sure just how deeply felt any expressions of wrong doing are. They feel bad, generally, about French Jews, well at least assimilated ones, who are French except that they occasionally attend temple.

The French are also extremely secular, as your statistics show. They want no religious nonsense whatsoever.

Really, their religion is being French.

The ones I've met make no pretensions about being multi-cultural when you get to know them.

Why should they? They have the best culture in the world--French culture!

From what I've seen of their perspective, they simply can't see why would anyone want to come to France, the best place and the best culture in the world, and not try to be French.

I wouldn't try to live there if I didn't want to be French. I like to visit, but I'm just not French and I would never expect to be accepted if I didn't want to be French and didn't act that way.

Multiculturalism on a global scale means that not every culture is going to be alike. Not every culture wants to assimilate others--they want to remain unique. So long as no one gets hurt, who cares?

Why should we force the French to run their culture and their country in a U.S.-style multicultural way? To do so defines the U.S. cultural imperialism that most countries in the world don't like. After all, we're not telling the North African countries that they must accept a large minority of French or any Europeans who will not cover themselves as citizens, are we?

My concern here is that the French may now feel like things have gone too far into multiculturalism in France, and they may react in ways that you or I might not like.

As I said in a post above, this will not end soon, and it may not end well. If people start to get hurt in an organized way, then we will have a legitimate complaint. Until that time, let the French be French because, well, they're French.

[On the Road]

113. It Sounds Plausible

that it would be due to French culture rather than religion.

This whole burka ban is disturbing, though. It's one of these seemingly small forms of discrimination that demonstrate something underneath the surface and sometimes become more extensive over time.

[amandabeech]

114. It never even occurred to me that it would be about religion,

except as a conflict between the state-mandated and almost universally accepted French secularism and a religion practiced in such a way as to be defined out of French secular culture. The French are no fans of any church, but look to be even less fans of a church not of their culture.

Remember, Charles Martel beat back the Moors in what, the 12th century, in southern France, ending the Islamic threat to France once and for all. It was part of the European attempt to push Islam out of the continent both on its southwestern edge with the Moors and in the east with the Ottoman Turks.

I don't think that it is underneath the surface at all. It's all pretty out front, really.

It is a really severe culture clash between the French and conservative Islam, and there is a particularly severe clash with respect to the treatment and role of women in each culture. The burka and niqab are merely symbols of what many French view as horrendous treatment of women in conservative Islamic culture. The push back has been going on for several years, at least, starting with the ban on head scarves and large pieces of religious jewelry of all kinds in the French public schools. I'm not even sure that Jewish male students may wear Yarmulkes. It is secular to a degree that our schools are not, and that's the way the French have had it for at least a century.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

136. You get it!

Very rarely do I read a post on this site and think that this person "gets it". You, my friend, get it! The french do have a very rich and proud culture. Whether it be their art, hisotry, food, fashion, politics, secularlism, language, etc. I support thier efforts in keeping France french.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustAnotherGen]

147. Well said!

I've spent so much time there - it's not just a simple matter of seculary vs. non-secular, right of the individual, etc. etc.

It's a cultural thing.

[KakistocracyHater]

115. unfortunately, there are always horrible women who fight FOR their

oppression, &/or for the general oppression of females in general. I'm for the ban but not French. I think it's hiding misogyny behind a "religion" label, plain & simple; if you wish to be oppressed, then please do so in private, not in public, where the sight of it may poison the mind of even more women/girls.

[KillCapitalism]

118. My take on France...

They are faux progressives there. Actually, I'd go so far to say that they're a bunch of freepers over there. Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and Ann Coulter would be worshipped there. I wish we could deport all of our right wing crazies and tea baggers over there, I'm sure the French would embrace their racism, bigotry, anti-Socialism, etc.

[truebrit71]

124. Wow...that is one of the most amazingly stupid things I have ever read here on DU..

...

[harun]

126. Liberty

[Recursion]

129. Whenever I see "burka" or "burqa" in the media my BS detector goes off

It's one of those terms that journalists and pundits seem to like to talk about without actually learning what it means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqaab

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab

A burqa (generally transliterated thus) is a garment covering the entire face (and body) with a veil over the hole for the eyes.

A niqaab is a hood that covers the face but leaves the eyehole unveiled.

Hijab is a covering for the hair, generally a scarf. (And even more generally "hijab" is modest dress a comportment.)

I keep hearing about "burqa bans", but every actual story I look into where the clothing is described actually turns out to be about hijab or occasionally niqaab. Burqas are very rare outside of certain parts of southwest asia (even the Taliban never claimed they were a universal religious obligation in Islam; they simply claimed they were part of the region's cultural tradition and so had to be required).

And also, universally missing from all these stories is any statements from the women who wear them (I know no women who wear burqas; the women I know who wear hijab and niqaab are all very ardent feminists).

[demoleft]

144. thanks for the post. indeed, the voice of the women in this case...

...is exactly what the french ban law is up to choke. the State has no interest in listening to them.
in perfect discriminatory style.

[LanternWaste]

150. I think I'll defer to Amnesty International on this one...

I think I'll defer to Amnesty International on this one... banning the burka will not make life any safer, any more tolerable, or any better for women who are compelled to wear one by the males dominating their lives any more than removing a sock filled with pennies from a wife beater will prevent him from continuing to beat her; and for those who do actually choose to wear it of their own volition, now that choice is gone.

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/ns_europe/2010-07-15/685875583705.html


"Amnesty regrets obviously that this law has been passed, and even more so that is has been passed with such an overwhelming majority of votes in the French lower chamber, because we believe that this is a law that will violate the rights to freedom of expression and freedom of religion of Muslim women who freely choose to wear full face veils.

"I think there is definitely a risk that some of those who are currently being forced to wear veils won't necessarily see their situation improve. They are likely to be restricted more to the home, their will see access to services, goods and perhaps even the assistance that they might want to reach out to taken away from them."