Catholics angry as church puts female ordination on par with sex abuse

[CHIMO]

Source: guardian.co.uk

It was meant to be the document that put a lid on the clerical sex abuse scandals that have swept the Roman Catholic world. But instead of quelling fury from within and without the church, the Vatican stoked the anger of liberal Catholics and women's groups by including a provision in its revised decree that made the "attempted ordination" of women one of the gravest crimes in ecclesiastical law.

The change put the "offence" on a par with the sex abuse of minors.

Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, called the document "one of the most insulting and misogynistic pronouncements that the Vatican has made for a very long time. Why any self-respecting woman would want to remain part of an organisation that regards their full and equal participation as a 'grave sin' is a mystery to me."

Vivienne Hayes, the chief executive of the Women's Resource Centre, said the decision to raise women's ordination to the level of a serious crime was "appalling".



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/15/vatican-declares-womens-ordination-grave-crime

[virgogal]

1. One of the many reasons I happily walked out of that church 40 years ago.

No regrets.

[AllyCat]

10. I left in spirit after confirmation. I left for good at 18 (when parents no longer held the keys)

What a bunch of nuts.

[saigon68]

47. Oblivious Chimpanzees

[appal_jack]

66. +1

I did the same thing as you, and between ages 14 and 18, I had to fight a lot with my Catholic parents about a whole lot of things, religion and spirituality especially.

Isn't it funny that the 'sacrament' of confirmation is supposed to be the final step into adulthood and full participation in the church community, yet it happens at a time when our parents can still force us into it.

Well, very glad that all is far behind me now, and I can happily tell Rat-zinger and his misogynistic power-crazed cronies to fuck themselves.

-app

[Rozlee]

30. I kinda soured on it in my second year of cathecism...

...when I got into trouble after Sister told us that God had given up his only son for us and I told her "no he didn't; he came back three days later."

[Trajan]

40. One of the real problems with christianity ...

Jesus died for your sins

Oh no ... Jesus is dead ?

Well ... not exactly ... He rose again and sits in the kingdom of heaven

OK ... Whew .... I thought you said he was dead

He DID die .... THEN he rose from the dead and is now a living god.

So .... He didn't actually die then ...

Yes .. He died ... He suffered horribly, and then was snuffed out, to provide you with salvation

But he lives .... If you 'die', then you are dead ... If he is not dead, then he didn't die ...

.....

Anyways: I am not surprised by this ... Nothing much ever changes ...

Agnostic at confirmation, and Atheist at 18 ...

Bye Bye Papa ....

[No Elephants]

43. IMO, a much larger problem of Christianity is people who call themselves

Christians, while ignoring most of what Christ said.

[October]

49. True, but the church leads --

and they've become more judgmental and less Christ-like.

I remember LIBERAL Catholicism, but it seems it was a blip in history now.

Personally, I left the church when they judged me for marrying someone who wasn't Catholic. I left for good when I took my young daughter to a Mass because I didn't want her to grow up feeling subservient.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

70. No they ARE Christ-like. He said lots of cruel stuff.

You just haven't read your bible.

"I come not in peace but with a sword; I have come to set (family members against each other).


Just a few from the book of Matthew:
# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

# Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

# Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

# Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

# "The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

# Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

# Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

# Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

# Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

# Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

# Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

# Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

There are MANY MANY MORE examples. Jesus was not always a nice guy. Christians of both good and bad doings are Christ-like; depends on which of his alleged words you are following.

Don't you read ALL of your Bible?

Of course we don't even know if he existed or not since he has no distinguishing characteristics from Mithra and Apollo and Osiris, and there are no contemporaneous independent accounts of his life, since the Gospels were written fifty to 100 years after his alleged life, so hey, pick and choose all ya want.

It doesn't matter to me. I think it's all made up and recycled from older stories.

[SalmonFritters]

64. So when you die and Christ offers you Resurrection, I assume you'll pass on it? n/t

[No Elephants]

42. Okay, so He lent us His only Son for 33 years & 3 day and gave us the Holy Spirit forever.

Picky,picky, picky.

I don't know about the whole story. I know only that the things Jesus supposedly said were very cool, especially (I imagine) for that time. I hope someday we can live up to them. We seem to be going more toward the Pharisees, though.

[Lugnut]

35. Same here.

I gave up almost 20 years ago and I've never looked back.

[Dulcinea]

46. The Catholic Church lost me a long time ago too.

As soon as I figured out their social agenda (women get to be virgin-martyrs or crank out as many little Catholics as possible who will grow up to generously support the church,) that was it for me. I would have made a much better Protestant or Quaker.

[lovuian]

52. I have to say

I in protest myself
their attitude to women is appalling

[FiveGoodMen]

2. Get a clue, Catholics! That Hitler Youth doesn't know shit. Don't listen to his advice.

[Sub Atomic]

3. What did you expect from a bunch of pompous assholes in dresses?

[RKP5637]

8. They already have a bunch of old ladies in dresses!!! n/t

[msongs]

4. that church is not gonna give up 2000 years of behavior just cuz it makes women angry lol nt

[defendandprotect]

65. The church's very purpose is a 2000 year war on females --

[BrklynLiberal]

5. As well they should be...pissed as hell!!!!!!

[Warpy]

6. Good maybe more will catch a clue and go Episcopalian

which is the same church but without most of the baggage accumulated by all those infallible old men in dresses who were in love with their own anatomy.

That's where I always send believer friends who are disgusted with Rome.

[IndianaGreen]

7. and the priests can marry!

Catholicism without the Vatican and the Papacy!

[skepticscott]

24. ooooohhh..you are SO going to be excommunicated for that!

The RCC is the one and only True Church, and tbe Episcopalianismites just a pale imitation. Just ask the guy in the beanie....

[lumpy]

54. Although born and raised in the Episcopal church, I gave it up

while in my 30s. The pomp, clubbiness and hypocrisy got to be too much for me. The real reason, however, came about because I really began to question the reliability of those people (through study) who founded the Christian faith based on what I truly came to believe to be myth. The result, a huge burden was lifted from my shoulders, a sort of freedom. I now base my faith on the intuitive powers I felt as a child and the realization that the instinct of love and the ability to forgive is all you need. Conscience is the greatest power people can possess.

[another saigon]

9. I plan on leaving my Parrish

as soon as my son graduates from the Parrish school next year. I always thought I would try Episcopalian. Then I met this nice Lowes employee who is married to a woman in my parish, but he is a Baptist. After some more conversation I learned his church is a 'black sheep' in in the Southern Baptist community. They have a gay minister, many gay members and leave the front door wide open for everyone. I was so intrigued I told him I would bring my son to a service this weekend. Who knew?? Liberal Baptists? I need to get out more.

[TheWraith]

11. Welcome to DU, another saigon.

Sounds like you've got some good choices open to you.

[AllyCat]

13. That's amazing. Welcome to DU!

[Warpy]

14. There are a lot of liberal congregations out there

but the Episcopalians are the best bet for Catholic believers who don't want to abandon their own religion completely. However, Bill Moyers and Jimmy Carter were Baptists, so they can't be all bad.

Kudos to you for seeing the problem and doing the exploration of other options.

Welcome to DU.

[another saigon]

22. that is the thing

I love the traditions of the catholic faith and receiving the sacraments, But I hate the politics, pope and all of the LIES. I would bet Jesus is not so happy about it all. So I thought the Episcopalian faith would be my best bet. lol, I never even thought of Baptists, until now! Heck, I may go on a church tour soon.

Thanks to you and all for the welcome.

:)

[JerseygirlCT]

27. And there are Baptists and Southern Baptists...

Some Baptist churches can be quite liberal.

But being a former RC/now Episcopalian myself, I totally agree with what you said - it was a fairly comfortable move.

[No Elephants]

44. there is a significant movement of people like that--liberals who are religiously "fundamental," for

want of a better word. I learned that when I started on message boards in 2004.

[peacefreak]

12. I had this figured out as a kid

when I was good enough to clean the altar, but not good enough to serve Mass. 12 year survivor of Catholic schooling.

[SharonAnn]

31. Me too. And i got in trouble in high school and was sent to the priest principal's office.

Being an advanced scholar, experienced in debate, and real "pain-in-the-neck", I received his lecture (about the inappropriateness of my topic in English class) with disdain. Funny, I don't even remember what the topic was. But I do remember asking him if he didn't want me to think and to describe my own opinion? If not, then what was the purpose of my education and what was I there for? He answered "To learn to be a good, Catholic wife and mother." I answered, "Well, that's not what I think I'm here for!"

It really opened my eyes! As a National Merit scholar, a Mensa member, and leader in my class, my sole purpose in his mind was to bear children and raise them.

And then, a few years later, it was discovered that he was having sexual liaisons with his male high school students and he was immediately removed from the position, sent for some treatment, and then placed at the state university as the head of the Newman Center, the Catholic Center for college students. That ensured he had a continuing supply of adolescent males.

What a crock! The hypocrisy is incredible.

[McCamy Taylor]

15. And these folks want to be our moral guides? Another reason I am not a Catholic.

Can these guys be any more self serving? Be sure the check out the Treasures of the Vatican the next time you are in Rome, and then ask yourself "What exactly does this Church stand for?"

Answer:$$$$

[depakid]

16. If this were anyone else, the Vatican's behavior re: pedophilia would be a criminal enterprise

[FiveGoodMen]

17. Let me reword that just slightly...

If this were anyone else, the Vatican's criminal behavior re: pedophilia would be a prosecuted.

[depakid]

20. Prosecuted under racketeering and conspiracy laws

as it is, they operate under the assumption that they're not accountable to anyone- going so far as to toss out this big FO to women, even as they're purportedly addressing their pattern of criminal conduct.

[defendandprotect]

33. +1000%

[ladywnch]

18. But then again, given how diligently and faithfully they eforce their child abuse

laws, does this statment really mean anything?!?!!!! I mean really, nudge, nudge, wink, wink.....

[Proletariatprincess]

19. The ultimate (old) boys club.

[laconicsax]

21. The same document also equates heresy with rape.

According to the guy who's supposedly God's representative on Earth, holding an opinion at variance with doctrine is the same as raping a child.

Ordain a woman? You might as well have raped a child.
Think that the transubstantiation doesn't literally turn wine into blood? You might as well have raped a child.

Is it any wonder that this 'scandal' has gone on for so long?

[RainDog]

23. the Pope is a vile, repulsive man.

who is the head of an utterly corrupt institution.

[laconicsax]

29. Careful...someone might accuse you of anti-Catholic bigotry if you keep that up.

Because, as we all know, saying that "the Pope is a vile, repulsive man who is the head of an utterly corrupt institution," is a broad-brush attack against all Catholics, living and deceased.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

37. but *actually* raping an *actual* child....

Well, that doesn't count.

It's only an offense when it's in a figurative sense.

[No Elephants]

45. You cannot ordaina woman as a Catholic priest. You can only attempt it. the same is not so of

child molestation or rape.

Cbild rape is never mentioned in the Bible. Women's "proper" place in a marriage or in the church is, thanks to the OT and loony, murdering Paul.

[Angry Dragon]

25. The nins are the ones that do the real work of the church

They are the ones that feed and take care of the needy, comfort the sick, keep the church running.
All the nuns should leave and see how fast the church starts crumbling.

[Hekate]

38. I don't know about the nins, but the population of nuns is aging with few young women to follow.

At some of the interfaith retreats I have attended, I've met some remarkable women in their 60s who have devoted their lives to helping others under the aegis of the RC Church, yet face a bleak old age when they are no longer able to work. Those vows of poverty mean they have no cushion of savings at all. The average age of American nuns is 70, with numbers of nuns down by 50% since the 1960s.

Traditionally, new sisters would be entering the orders, taking up teaching or nursing or social work, but also caring for their elders. Not happening any more, since a whole world of opportunities now awaits young women who don't necessarily want marriage and children -- a world where they can think and act for themselves.

The attitudes and behaviors of the current papal hierarchy toward American nuns are practically medieval, ensuring even more alienation, plus (I'm pretty sure) a sense of betrayal. This pope has singled them out for an investigatory smack-down.

The interfaith retreat I attended was at a site founded by an order of nuns who left the church as a group in 1970, and are now known as the Immaculate Heart Community. They had originally been encouraged to study and discuss the writings coming out of the Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965, but shortly the bishops clamped down on such independent thinking. Too late! There ensued a lengthy court battle with the Church because the nuns wanted the right to retain their own property -- buildings and land. The Church wanted to conduct the battle on their own turf in an ecclesiastical court, but the (former) nuns got a secular lawyer and went to a secular court, where they won.

Here in SoCal the LA archdiocese headed by Cardinal Mahoney extends all the way up to Santa Barbara and beyond, and Mahoney needs money to settle the sex abuse cases. Lots of money. He's selling off real estate -- such as the little old house in a working-class Santa Barbara neighborhood where three nuns had been doing direct ministry to the poor for about 50 years. (Even a property like that was worth well more than half a million dollars at the time.) It was quite the scandal in this area, as they suddenly had no home and Mahoney couldn't be bothered to care. A group of Episcopalian nuns here took them in temporarily -- I'm not sure where they are now, but I believe the three ended up back at the Mother House of their order, wherever that is. They truly had nowhere else to go, at their age.

I used to respect the Church largely out of love for my grandmother (well, that and the colored votive candles, rosaries, and mysterious Latin), but my parents were emphatically ex-Catholic, even though they never really would discuss it. As it stands now, I no longer have much respect left for the institution. The disrespect and outright contempt by Rome for the female half of the human race is appalling, as is their blindness in casting blame on others and looking everywhere but at themselves for their current troubles.

Hekate

[Joe Bacon]

48. Phony Mahoney has a big fire sale going!

Really, when it comes to sleaze, nobody else comes close to Phony Mahoney.

He even admits in a deposition that he KNEW priests were molesting kids, and yet that sleazebag shuffled them from parish to parish. He didn't care one fucking bit about the victims.

Now he got his hand caught in the cooky jar so he's selling off a bunch of church properties to pay the lawsuits.

And since he is a Republican, he knows he will get away with all the crimes he's committed.

[TlalocW]

26. It's amusing in a sad sort of way

That the Catholic church still thinks it has some sort of moral authority in the world.

TlalocW

[Crunchy Frog]

28. Not that they have that much of a problem with sex abuse of minors.

I mean, this is the same church that excommunicated the people who helped a 9 year old get an abortion but not the rapist who got her pregnant.

If I were a member of the Catholic church I would certainly be lapsed by now. If I still liked the ritual and the trappings I would be an Anglican. I don't know how anyone who's progressive and/or female can stand to stick with them at this point.

[eridani]

32. If they had women priests they wouldn't have nearly as much sex abuse n/t

[glinda]

34. Now the nuns will really get riled up.

[Q3JR4]

36. Makes you wonder why liberal catholics

stick around instead of starting up their own church ala King Henry's Church of England.

Q3JR4.

[October]

50. True, and I'll add...

that I wish women would rally against this BS.

[panzerfaust]

39. Ordination of women a crime: Vatican

Source: Sydney Morning Herald (Oz)

The new rules put attempts at the ordination of women among the "most serious crimes", along with paedophilia.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/ordination-of-women-a-crime-vatican-20100716-10den.html

---

Good to see the Holy Mother Church is not having her head turned by all the new, non-medieval ideas of the equality of humanity that have been floating around the last few centuries.

[JerseygirlCT]

51. I swear, the boys will agree to ordain pet monkeys before

they will ordain women.

What would happen to the RC if all the women left, though? There'd be nothing left.

[theHandpuppet]

41. You and me both, Terry!

"Why any self-respecting woman would want to remain part of an organisation that regards their full and equal participation as a 'grave sin' is a mystery to me."

[ck4829]

53. K&R

[yellowcanine]

55. So ordaining women is akin to raping kids?

:banghead:

What a bunch of dickheads.

[Hekate]

56. If you're not the Virgin Mary (there can be only one), then you are Fallen Eve (all other women)...

Rome has set itself up to be the ecclesiastical equivalent of a boys' tree house with the secret password "Girls are Icky."

They were making progress of a sort, some 40 years ago. With the election of Cardinal Ratzinger, all of that was thrown out the window. It's what you get when you elect a guy who used to run the (I kid you not) Holy Office of the Inquisition. Learned theologian though he may be, it is a rather medieval orientation, in which he seems to believe that the only way to save the Church from declining numbers is to become ever more rigid and doctrinaire.

Hekate

[saigon68]

58. Rat Face is a piece of Work

[theHandpuppet]

60. There was a local bishop around here a few years ago

Who used to organize summer trips to the amusement parks for the Catholic boys in his parish. For the trip the boys were all given t-shirts that read, "No Girls Allowed". I kid you not.

[femrap]

57. When is this religion

going to die? It's pathetic. It hates over half the world's people.

[patrice]

59. Isn't it true the sum-total of their justification is: There's never been a female RC priest, so

there never should be a female RC priest.

I was looking into this some years ago and that's all I could come up with.

Does anyone know what the official/cannonical basis for this judgement is?

[defendandprotect]

61. Eh . . . since only males were Apostles is part of the reasoning . . .

however, that's also the basis of the counter-argument that much of church history

is hidden -- i.e., the importance of Mary Magdalene as being the closest to Jesus --

probably married -- and probably his closest confidant. I am stating this all within

the myth, of course.

Keep in mind that the priests wear skirts because they overthrew the Old Religions

which were generally female centered -- that's why the church's tremendous fear, animosity and

intolerance for females --

It is, after all, a male-supremacist religion -- and the fountainhead of "The Hammer of Witches"

and eventually Witch Burnings -- the female holocaust --


And, of course, what would a "one-all-male-god" be about except excluding females?

[SalmonFritters]

62. Why on earth would the National Secular Society care who the Catholic Church ordains?

That's a joke. Let the church decide who they ordain.

I'm not a Catholic but for crying out loud, what on earth gives this lady the right to try and tell them what to do? You wanna be secular, go for it but stop trying to write the rules for everyone else.

The Catholic church has every right in the world to determine what's a violation of their code. If you don't like it ... get ready for it ... don't be a Catholic. Whoa, that was quite a leap there. Odd that some people can't make it.

[truebrit71]

63. Why any woman wants anything to do with one of the most virulently anti-woman groups is beyond me..

..

[RainDog]

67. self-hatred - and teaching the same to their daughters. n/t

[redwitch]

68. A priest I know just celebrated the 40th anniversary of his ordination.

He spent it protesting outside a cathedral where 5 men were being ordained. He was protesting because women cannot be priests. And happily waved to the bishop who was on his way into the cathedral. Not all Catholics are women hating nutjobs and not all priests are pedophiles. There are still those who work tirelessly for social justice and are disgusted with Church dogma like this.

[leftyladyfrommo]

69. Catholics should keep the beautiful part of their faith and just leave the church behind.

Bunch of stupid old men.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. The ARchbishop of Canterbury wouldn't let the Presiding Bishop of the US wear her mitre.

She is the head bishop in the united states Episcopal Church.

She went to England and they had a ceremony a few weeks ago, and she had to CARRY her MITRE down the aisle under her arm, instead of wearing it as a symbol of her authority.

The Whiskeypalians have their problems too. They have since decided to ordain female bishops. The smart priests (like Father Cutie, caught on the beach making out with his girlfriend) left the Catholic church, married her and became an Anglican priest.

The women in the RCC remind me of gay Log Cabin Republicans.

That said, I have known some wonderful nuns in the past. I think the CCVI (Sisters of Charity of the Incarnate Word) who run Incarnate Word College in San Antonio got one new novice in the last thirty years. I used to know the woman. She conducted a chamber orchestra at Incarnate Word that I played in thirty years ago. She's in her late fifties now. She only took her vows a few years ago.


WHY DO THEY BOTHER????

[alfredo]

72. Looking long range, would American Catholics fare better

if liberated from the dictates of Rome? I'm not talking good or evil when I speak of Rome, I'm talking of the embarrassment of being associated with those wankers.