Pentagon revives Rumsfeld-era domestic spying unit

[IDemo]

Source: rawstory.com

By Daniel Tencer
Saturday, June 19th, 2010 -- 7:13 pm

The Pentagon's spy unit has quietly begun to rebuild a database for tracking potential terrorist threats that was shut down after it emerged that it had been collecting information on American anti-war activists.

The Defense Intelligence Agency filed notice this week that it plans to create a new section called Foreign Intelligence and Counterintelligence Operation Records, whose purpose will be to "document intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism and counternarcotic operations relating to the protection of national security."

But while the unit's name refers to "foreign intelligence," civil liberties advocates and the Pentagon's own description of the program suggest that Americans will likely be included in the new database.

FICOR replaces a program called Talon, which the DIA created in 2002 under then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as part of the counterterrorism efforts following the 9/11 attacks. It was disbanded in 2007 after it emerged that Talon had retained information on anti-war protesters, including Quakers, even after it was determined they posed no threat to national security.



Read more: http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0619/pentagon-revives-domestic-spying-unit/

[Barack_America]

1. Wow. That sounds very much not good.

[saigon68]

63. Its "little Rahm" worried about his other client

[amandabeech]

2. This crap just doesn't ever stop. If someone in the Obama Whitehouse

actually paid a little attention in Contemporary American History 425, they'd have some clue.

Or better yet, just get someone in there who lived through the Nixon administration. A few are still around and I'm sure that they'd be happy to give their two cents. Just like Paul Volcker. yeah. right.

But, no. We cannot look back. Always forward.

[madrchsod]

3. i`m not surprised in the least...

obama is`t any different than any past president. peaceful dissent on either side is a threat to the government

[babylonsister]

4. Here's a less sensational story about the same thing...

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/06/18/pentagon-spies-build-new-database-on-foreign-and-domestic-threats.html

snip//

Records held in the database, the notice says, could include information on “individuals involved in, or of interest to, DoD intelligence, counterintelligence, counterterrorism, and counternarcotic operations or analytical projects as well as individuals involved in foreign intelligence and/or training activities.” Among the data to be stored: “information such as name, Social Security Number (SSN), address, citizenship documentation, biometric data, passport number, vehicle identification number and vehicle/vessel license data.” Actual intelligence reports from the field and analytical material which would help “identify or counter foreign intelligence and terrorist threats to the DoD and the United States” will also be included.

“That’s potentially a lot of information,” Donald Black, chief spokesman for DIA, acknowledged in an interview with Declassified. But he said that material entered into the new database would be carefully reviewed—as regularly as every 90 days—to ensure that out-of-date, discredited, or irrelevant data on individuals would be destroyed if there was no longer a good reason to keep it.

Black said that the new database would not include the highly controversial aspects of TALON, a database assembled by a spooky Pentagon spy outfit called Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA), set up during the George W. Bush administration. The Pentagon shut down TALON in 2007 after revelations that CIFA, whose mission included collating intelligence collected by local law-enforcement agencies and military-intelligence units on potential threats to U.S. defense installations, had assembled files on peace marchers and other nonviolent antiwar protestors. The Pentagon later said that CIFA would be broken up. Apart from its alleged monitoring of antiwar activists, the unit became tainted by a major contracting scandal that resulted in the imprisonment of former California Rep. Randy “Duke” Cunningham. As NEWSWEEK reported here, some defense experts were alarmed when CIFA attempted—and failed—to take over a Pentagon agency responsible for inspecting the security arrangements of defense contractors, and maintaining security-clearance files on millions of contractor employees. Critics feared that such a merger could result in the creation of a military secret police.

more...

[Autumn]

6. Well thats better,

still sucks but it does sound a little less sensational.

[Go2Peace]

7. From your "version" - It will may still include "Peace activists"

if they are deemed to have "future" potential for violence. That is the exact same case that was used in the first DB.

Also, they have not put in place safeguards, and many of the same people will run it. ACLU is against it.

"Two U.S. officials, who asked for anonymity when discussing sensitive information, said that while CIFA had been disbanded on paper, many of its personnel and some of its functions were transferred to DCHC. One of the officials said that DCHC is now in the same office space that CIFA once occupied, in a complex near suburban Washington’s Reagan National Airport.

A defense official, who also did not want to be named, insisted that the new unit, unlike CIFA, had no law-enforcement powers. He maintained that the new system would not repeat abuses similar to those which occurred with TALON. But the official said that theoretically, stored data could include information on domestic activists or protestors who might not be violent at present, but could be deemed to pose a potential threat of violence in future. "

[babylonsister]

9. It's not 'my' version, it's Newsweek's, and rawstory has a

long rep of posting sensational stuff, some that was absolute horseshit.

You believe who you want.

[Go2Peace]

10. A little defensive are we? The word "version" is perfectly appropriate for two

writeups. It was not intended to be somehow stating your's was inferior. I was simply pointing out that the article you mentioned *also* expressed concerns about the program.

[babylonsister]

11. Nah, you're just combative, and you tire me. Bye! nt

[Grinchie]

35. Ouch -- Retreating so soon Babylon? Whats the matter?

Oh yeah, being thrown under the bus hurts...

[MiaCulpa]

14. "rawstory has a..."

In all seriousness, Daniel Tencer of Raw Story is an excellent reporter, and his article included mentions from the Newsweek article, as well as from Jeff Stein of the Washington Post. But, if you prefer to take your information straight from an agent of the DIA, that's all well and good.

And if BabylonSister would care to back up her claims about Raw Story, or anyone else...please do so. If not here, drop me a line at '[e-mail]'

I'll be glad to give anything written due consideration.

Thank.

-Diane


"long rep of posting sensational stuff, some that was absolute horseshit."



Such as?

[babylonsister]

15. Read this-very enlightening...and it's old.

They definitely have a rep, and I love Lala; I exclude her from the criticism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x585255

And then there's this...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5165543

[MiaCulpa]

17. Without a link to the article referred to...

I'm afraid I can't be of any help there. At least not until Tuesday...

I am the senior editor for Raw, so feel free to cc me any comments you have for the site.

-D.

[babylonsister]

18. I'll keep that in mind when one of your breaking stories don't

pan out. I'm sure that's happened pretty often.

I know that has happened pretty often.

But thanks for the offer.

[MiaCulpa]

21. 'Breaking' news

Our 'breaking' news items are generally wire reports. If a report turns out to be inaccurate, we post a correction before the story is removed as custom.

I'll gladly check out anything you send my way.

Diane

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MiaCulpa]

19. Re: The comments about 'legitimate as AP'

Raw Story has our own on site fee to AFP wire reports, and we use those as many other sites do, ABC, CBS, USA Today, when they post wire reports. We also have access to use our own AP, Reuters news feeds.

We also link to outside sources, do our own reporting on outside news stories as many other news sites, HuffPo comes to mind, and when ever possible, we do our own original reporting.

Again, specific article links would be much easier to comment on, but perhaps this is of some help?

-Diane

[MiaCulpa]

25. Those were kinda interesting threads!

I see many were angry that we told them ahead of time there wouldn't be 22 indictments in the Plame case. I sure hope no one is waiting on those to happen!

[Grinchie]

37. Frankly, I'm upset, since the Plame Case is worse than the U.S.S. Liberty in my opinion...

Nothig like sacrificing a bunch of innocent intelligence operatives to save the empire huh?

[scentopine]

53. Mia - thanks for getting the word out even when it is an inconvenient truth...

thanks for the hard work and effort. When it comes to war, spying, rendition, Gitmo, wiretapping, etc Obama administration has really changed things.

For the worse.

Democratic insiders say Obama is considering pulling Scooter Libby out of retirement. Mr. Libby is reportedly being considered for one of two key White House roles, either in Treasury Dept. or Mineral Management Service. Both positions carry the title of Senior Stooge. The two organizations have had torrid and well publicized industry relationships; with each partnership giving birth to a series of disasters against the general population of the United States.

In response, both organizations have complained to Mr. Obama that the demands for public accountability and transparency are interfering with their ongoing efforts to plunder and destroy every last resource in America. Mr. Libby made it on Mr. Obama's short list after receiving government and industry accolades as Senior Iraq War Chump, reporting directly to Dick Cheney.

"Obama needs a fixer. I'm uniquely qualified for the position." said Mr. Libby.

[jgraz]

74. I second scentopine. Rawstory is my homepage.

I don't know what I'd do without you guys. Thanks for adding a little sanity to our lives.

[Grinchie]

34. I will.

[ixion]

58. Uh, and newsweek has a history of white washing

so...

[tom_paine]

62. I believe the DIA's "chief spokesman" is lying.

But that's crazy, right.

I mean, that's like when I believed that BP was lying in late April about the quantity of the oil spill being 500/1,000/5,000 bbls per day.

Crazy. Off the wall. Loony conspiracy theory.

:crazy:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cascadiance]

70. I wonder if two of these "transferred over" were David Burtt and Joseph Heferon...

Who both as Director and Deputy Director of the CIFA many years back made news for both "quietly resigning" from their leadership positions of the CIFA mysteriously on the same day.

This was back in the day that the CIFA was being linked in to MZM, Duke Cunningham, Brent Wilkes, and a lot of those related scandals too...

Emptywheel talks about this a lot from then...

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/07/the-resignation.html

And perhaps earlier Democratic participation of the coverup of these messes that were mostly GOP at the time that made this a bipartisan coverup effort (that perhaps is still continuing with what just happened the other day) is when Democratic chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Sylvester Reyes, when he buried a report of the abuses of former committee member Duke Cunningham.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/07/critics-slam-in.html

I really wonder if organizations like these are the tip of the iceberg of a mess that's bigger than both parties. The fact that Obama's really failed in leading us to increase transparency of the government by continuing to heavily use the State Secrets Privilege, etc. is disturbing.

[IDemo]

16. There is nothing substantially different between the two write-ups

Understandable if you simply prefer Newsweek, though.

[boppers]

23. Does the new setup explicitly prohibit the torture of gay people?

It doesn't?

OH NOES!

[Grinchie]

38. Nice distraction, but I think the Gay people have learned to live within the system...

As long as it does not involve the Military.

It's their choice to enter the Military and the weirdness promulgated there, but I don't think your comment adds any value whatsoever, other than chaff, depending on your motivation.

(can't tell if you were attempting to be sarcastic there..)

[boppers]

44. Point being that lack of rules about targeting specific groups...

...does not automatically imply specific groups *will* be targeted.

Contrasting the AP vs. rawstory article, I was trying to point out that the AP went with "here's an agency, and their mission", while rawstory went with "here's an agency, and their mission, and OMG A GROUP MIGHT TARGETED BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED"

[Mojorabbit]

72. I am only on my second cup of coffee

but if I am reading this right might it not be because specific groups were targeted in the past? They were deemed as persons of particular interest and I can't see where that mindset has changed.
Call me a tin foiler but I don't believe the programs were ever really shut down. Govts never give up power.

When I was a kid police were not stationed in schools, no one searched your possessions in school, and cops were for the most part laid back and helpful and did not dress up in robocop gear.I don't know when the swat team concept was developed but I have no recollection of such a thing when I was a child.

I see a creeping police state atmosphere and the govt spying on it's own citizens and keeping a database is not going to stop. There was a time when it was a scandal when things like this were exposed but people seem to have for the most part accepted the increasing levels of surveillance. It was only the KGB who did such things and it was drilled into us during the cold war how we were different in this way.

[boppers]

85. What made us different wasn't the databases on citizens.

We both tracked people, and made policy decisions based on the information.

They arrested the people they tracked, and sent them to prisons and work camps, with no real recourse by their citizens. We have that safety valve.

[Mojorabbit]

91. Do we?

Hasn't there been recent announcements that the admin can direct the CIA to assassinate who the govt designates as "terrorists" even if they are american citizens? Has not the supremes today announced that one can be jailed for giving support to "terrorist" groups that was not meant for violent ends? Are we not halfway there?

[No Elephants]

89. It does mean they CAN be.

[girl gone mad]

80. Too bad you weren't able to get here in time to be the first post.

I know you would have loved to throw the thread off course right from the start.

Guess those breaks are costly.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

73. Oh, wow. If the chief spokesman for the DIA says it's OK, then it must be

:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

5. Because this Commander In Chief would bring CHANGE ...!!

[Grinchie]

39. Thats a kneeslapper....

You crack me up Defend... Change, how quaint.

[panzerfaust]

64. ... You can believe in.

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr
Les Guêpes, 1849

Certainly that be true of the change brought by this administration compared with the last.

Drill Baby Drill.

[guruoo]

8. "two unnamed US officials"

"Newsweek cites two unnamed US officials as suggesting that the new program essentially echoes the old one"

:eyes:

[Go2Peace]

12. If specific policy safeguards are not in place it *will* end up like the other one

Because it is being managed by essentially the same people in the same location.

[guruoo]

20. We'll see. n/t

[chill_wind]

13. It's all a shell game. TALON, for example was said to be shut down

technically, but not really-- seems it was just offloaded to the FBI.

The U.S. Department of Defense announced<8> its Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA) will close the TALON Reporting System effective Sept. 17, 2007, and maintain a record copy of the collected data in accordance with intelligence oversight requirements.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Guardian_Threat_Tracking_System

Clapper was "credited" for it:

TALON (Threat and Local Observation Notice) was a spying database that was under the operational control of the U.S. Air Force. It was authorized by neocon warmonger and serial intelligence fabricator, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz in 2002. By 2004 however, TALON became the "property" of the Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA), a secretive and heavily-outsourced Pentagon satrapy run by Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Stephen A. Cambone.

Following media revelations of the program, in 2007 The National Security Archive published a series of documents outlining CIFA's illegal domestic operations; surveillance that continues today under new Pentagon programs authorized by Obama's discredited "change" regime, as revealed last summer by Democracy Now!.

While the Journal is technically correct that the TALON database was removed from CIFA's control by Clapper, the TALON system itself was offloaded, as I previously reported back in 2008, to the FBI and now reside in a Bureau database known as Guardian and e-Guardian.

Even though CIFA has since been supplanted by the DIA's Defense Counterintelligence and Human Intelligence Center (DCHC), SourceWatch revealed that "in accordance with intelligence oversight requirements," DOD "will maintain a record copy of the collected data," including data illegally collected on antiwar activists, continues to exist somewhere deep in the bowels of the Pentagon for future reference.

Whether or not Clapper is confirmed by the Senate, illegal wars of aggression will continue; drones will still rain death and destruction upon unarmed civilians; America's pit bull in the Middle East, Israel, will carry out international acts of piracy and murder on the high seas with impunity as Gaza starves; and the Executive Branch will complete the destruction of the Constitution and the rule of law at home to "keep us safe."

http://antifascist-calling.blogspot.com/

So now we have FICOR and a back up copy of TALON under the new improved Guardian.

[boppers]

22. If they destroy data, they're accused of hiding evidence.

Lose/Lose no matter what they do.

[mbperrin]

24. Perhaps not breaking the law to start with would be a good idea.

Just an idea.

[boppers]

26. Simply gathering data is not breaking the law.

The law doesn't work that way.

[mbperrin]

29. Oh? Might want to tell that to Robert Soloway.

The 4th Amendment is all about gathering data.

Of course, that's a quaint notion these days, when we're in danger of atom bombing from Cuba, WMDs from Iraq, Terra Terra Terra from everywhere, and next? Who knows? Zombies from Mars? All equally credible, and all great reasons for totalitarians to simply gather data.

[boppers]

30. The spammer? What? Anyways, here, read up:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Nothing about "gathering data", it was about invasive actions into private possessions and information.

Publish a web page of members of your peace group? No warrant needed to gather data you've published to the public. Give a speech to the public about your political views? No warrant needed to gather data you've published.

(Did you mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Soloway
? I can't help but worry I'm missing your point, since it was in the subject line...)

[mbperrin]

68. You're under 30, right? Okay, take a lesson.

their persons, houses, papers, and effects, is what data was in 1789 and still is today.

The gathering of information by the government hardly stops at your public publishing. If you're older than 30, say 50 or more, fill out a Freedom of Information request for your FBI file. You'll find interviews with your neighbors, parents, and siblings, as well as your bank account numbers and balances, travel information based on tickets and a whole lot more. That's just what they will let you see voluntarily.

All Soloway was doing was gathering data, and he went to jail. So gathering data is not just a benign exercise, unless you want to take the spammers' side. It's the same as government spying; they just want to make a profit - the government wants to increase power so that the right people make a profit.

Anyway, if you don't folks snooping you, okay. Good luck with that.

[boppers]

84. 39, actually, but I was a geek when my peers were learning to read.

I don't need to bother filling out a FOIA request, I know it's a thick hunk of data, because of the companies I've worked for, and the software projects I've worked on. I'm pretty sure I'm tracked pretty tightly, because it would be grossly inept of them to not track me tightly.

One doesn't get their code onto computers controlling national security assets by looking pretty. One does not manage to have access to Q clearance documents and data without being completely examined, and monitored.

"All Soloway was doing was gathering data, and he went to jail"... Spamming is not data gathering. You see, it's what you do with the data that counts. He collected data, and then used it to forge identities, forge accounts, and steal computer resources. If he had just read it passively, nothing would have hurt others.

"Anyway, if you don't folks snooping you, okay. Good luck with that." I think you're missing a word here, but see the first paragraph. I, and a few of my peers, have been under a microscope long enough to drive some of us quite mad. I chose to figure out the system, and am much less paranoid for it.

[mbperrin]

86. Your privilege if you choose, but you have no right to choose for me.

It's still that much of a free country.








I wish.

[Grinchie]

45. You forgot North Korea, and the Starving Populace that torpedoes S Korean Warships

Yep, that is for the best intersts of the nation fer sure...

(Never mind that South Koreas's economy, totoally dependant on U.S. Imports is crashing, and the leverage is taking a bite out of the cozy relationship they once had with the US....)

Yet, we are presented with evidence of a torpedoe that has all fins on the propeller intact, supoosedly after it blew up and broke a patrol boat in half... Right...

Wake up sheeple.

What happens when Goverment make the shit up, start a war, and then it's too fucking late? Oh wait, I just described Iraq and the Gulf Oil Spill.... Silly me.

[mbperrin]

69. You're right! I forgot to fear the country that can't build an all you can

eat buffet.

Yeah, yeah, they can plunge the world into ash, I know. :rofl:

[Grinchie]

42. Oh really? Try staking out a suspect sometimes, and getting harassed by the cops.

Boppers, you are an ignorant fool.

[boppers]

54. I've collected terabytes on suspects, and non-suspects.

Stalking is a crime, collecting data is not.

You have to know the difference. If you were "harassed", perhaps you didn't know the difference.

[Grinchie]

59. Combing the Internets is not the same as getting your shoes dirty.

Perhaps you haven't encountered todays breed of Law savvy criminlas while hiding out in your cubicle.

[boppers]

61. LOL, you're funny.

Do you have dirty fingernails, too?

Messy hair?

If you think that "shoes", of all things, has anything to do with it (hint: shoes are a great tell), well...good luck.

Shoes are just a start.

[Go2Peace]

78. That is a quite interesting admission

In what capacity to you gather those terrabytes of data? Police? Other work? Because it makes a difference. There are ethics requirements as well as legal laws that have to be adhered to. You can't "simply" collect data, you have to have a justification and you have to follow appropriate guidelings, unless you are a corporation, in which case we should have provided legal restrictions to data gathering (Like Europe does), but we have very powerful corporations.

Enlighten us a bit, because how and under what capacity you gather that data is very important to the statements you are making. It is not so clear cut as you are proposing.

[boppers]

81. I've done network security and content monitoring for federal, state, and private US companies.

I am acutely aware of the legal frameworks involved, and what justifications and ethical considerations come into play... more specifically, I've done lots of work with packet sniffers to monitor *every* packet that crosses a wire, and trigger across thousands of possible rulesets to take an action based on the headers and content of a packet. You are correct that corporations (and government agencies) own their networks, and are thus allowed to monitor them.

Without breaking NDA's, I can point you at:
http://www.snort.org/
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusion_detection_system

For an overview of the kind of tech involved.

For an overview of how we police ourselves, I suggest looking here:
http://www.sage.org/ethics/

[No Elephants]

90. Not true.

[chill_wind]

27. What can I tell you? They can't keep it straight.

They do what they want. And can't keep the stories very straight.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/06/16/the-return-of-cifa-now-with-interrogation-capabilities/

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/07/more-funny-busi.html

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/08/talon-guardian-.html

[boppers]

28. They can do no right.

What defense intelligence activities on Americans trying to attack US bases would you consider acceptable? Please do tell.

[chill_wind]

43. We should expect them to try.

"What defense intelligence activities on Americans trying to attack US bases would you consider acceptable? Please do tell."

Ones that don't involve spying on librarians and Quakers and little old ladies from the Methodist church.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/faces-surveillance-targets-illegal-spying

[boppers]

46. How about harmless counselors and psychiatrists?

Should they not be watched, because they are harmless?
























hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nidal_Malik_Hasan

[chill_wind]

51. But he was watched, wasn't he?

And he wasn't deemed harmless, and yet....

we know the rest.

[boppers]

52. Oh, so we should only watch the *harmful* ones, when we know, ahead of time, that they are harmful.

Are you proposing we re-instate our psychic research programs, to tell the future, so we know which "harmless" people are actually not harmless?

[chill_wind]

55. We don't need

"psychic research programs" when we already have a draconian dragnet system so full of redundancies--- one so apparently overfunded that it could divert major "anti-terror resources" to spy on peaceful citizens- Quakers and peace activists and little old environmentalist ladies (and put them in a Pentagon database forfookingever). We have plenty of monitoring, all right. Some of it a massive waste of taxpayer money, turns out. To say nothing of the gross affront to those Americans' civil liberties.

[boppers]

83. Being in a database is an affront to civil liberties?

Do those "little old ladies" object to being in government databases for social security?

[Go2Peace]

79. wow, you think it is OK in a free society to watch everyone?

[boppers]

82. Yes.

Watching, or not watching, is not the problem. The problem is what the watchers do with the data.

As it turns out, in the US, the data is infrequently used and abused, and we have remedies for when it is, and whether it can be allowed into court.

[Grinchie]

47. I guess you've never been through basic training..

Especially the part where they mention that there is no security.

A single loony does not get access to the world trade center and bring it down.

A single looney may kill 20 people with a a machine gun, but hey, we honor them as they fight for our interests in the Iraqi Theatre of War.. Just as long as they don't do it when the come home like Timothy McVeigh..

There are a lot of crazy people in America.. I can smell them from a mile away, and I put distance in between. I don't need a 10,000 mile drift net sifting through my life to be able to identify crazy people that have lost their Xanax prescription due to "Austerity Measures"

[boppers]

50. Not sure how you're responding to me...

Nope, no basic, I went the private route into intel, but you are correct, there is no absolute security.

I believe you are wrong, however, about a "single loony". "A single loony does not get access to the Oklahoma City federal building and bring it down" might best exemplify my point.

[Grinchie]

60. Your right, it wasn't a single looney...

So why did they present McVeigh as a single looney?

The fact is that it happened, and so did the WTC incident, yet surprisinglyly the Government had a really hard time deciding to do an investigation, and when it became inevitable, they omitted Building 7 from the public record as if it never existed...

How can one explain something if it never happened? Well, they can't explain it, so it was omitted.

I guess WTC 7 just fell down due to sympathetic vibrations from the loss of it's sister towers...

You guys are pathetic if you don't have any questions in your mind regarding that.

[boppers]

75. McVeigh, Nicols, the Fortiers...

Why did the press focus on the one guy? Because the press like to focus on one guy.

Why did WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 all come down, but people like to focus on only one building (what about 3? why isn't there a ton of questions about 3? why isn't there a separate investigatory panel about 3? Is there something being hidden about building 3?)

Why? Because like the press are made of people, and people focus on, and fetishize, specific things, regardless of facts.

[Grinchie]

41. Yep, Losers nonetheless

Best to just not walk where it is slippery...

[Grinchie]

40. You forgo about Raptor, the first acronym used in 2001

Hate to mention this, but this is the same as Blackwater changing the name to XE, and about 20 others in recent history. As the convoluted web of names grows, the greater the chance nobody will keep track of the history of the company..

Chemical Bank anyone?

It's all BS, and the fact that this project continues through 2 administration is aple evidence that they think it's important... It is, it's just that we may be included by default.


Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

[boppers]

49. Oh, this is much, much, older than two administrations.

We've been doing this for at least 60 years, with the occasional hue and cry and renaming... and people ignoring the past, while being offended by the present.

Can anyone honestly believe that we didn't track anti-war folks during WWII? We just what, totally ignored them then?

[Overseas]

31. K&R in hopes that this isn't true. We've got tons of intelligence agencies already.

We don't need the layer upon layer of redundancies. And of course we don't need the Modern Republican spying on our fellow citizens who may protest government activities.

[chill_wind]

48. We love redundancies.

At least we have up until now..

Several people noted the announcement that DOD was shutting down the TALON database, wondering if the database was just going to be renamed down the line, as TIA seems to have morphed. Apparently they missed this detail:

It will be closed on Sept. 17 and information collected subsequently on potential terror or security threats to Defense Department facilities or personnel will be sent by Pentagon officials to an FBI database known as Guardian, according to Army Col. Gary Keck, a Pentagon spokesman.

Give credit to William Arkin, who actually listed this database when he appeared on Democracy Now to talk about the Talon database:

AMY GOODMAN: Does this concern you?

WILLIAM ARKIN: What do you think? Of course, it concerns me. I mean, I think that this is just one tiny picture of the actual amount of information which is collected by the F.B.I. and the intelligence community. We know that there are dozens of these databases, Cornerstone, TALON, , the Coast Guard ICC database, the F.B.I. Guardian database, the F.B.I. TRRS database, the Joint Intelligence Task Force Counterterrorism Homeland Defense database, the SSOMB database, the BTS summary, the C.I.A. TD database, the NSA traffic database called Criss-Cross. I mean, we know that these databases are out there and that they all deal with domestic issues.

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/08/talon-guardian-.html

[Son Of Wendigo]

56. They Spied On My Wife and Me

Around 2005 and 2006 we ran a peace blog. We wrote a lot of antiwar articles, doing our best to personalize the costs being paid by Americans, its allies, and the Iraqis. I remember some of the articles we wrote.

We wrote one about the insufficient liners for helmets, which caused contrecoup injuries to the brains of soldiers who were caught in the shock wave of a nearby explosion. There was a man in Georgia who made proper liners which cost him about $75 each who was looking for donations to fund his continued work. He gave them free to the Army. One celebrity, I forget who, donated $1million to this work.

We wrote about the incomplete body armor supplied to the troops. It had no sides and offered poor protection to the pelvic area. The insurgents knew this and were taught to aim for these areas. The army would threaten any soldier who bought his own armor, or had his family buy it for him. The manufacturer of the approved armor was also a big time donor to Republican candidates.

We wrote about families had to run bake sales and the like to buy pillows and blankets for the wounded men and women hospitalized at Landstuhl because the Army didn't have enough to go around.

We wrote about a young soldier killed returning to his base with a paper he needed for Naturalization. He had already provided a copy but it was printed on the wrong color of paper.

We also wrote about the illegal American use of white phosphorus against population centers and the horrors, including hideous birth defects ln Iraqi (and some American) children and cancer in adults, caused by American use of artillery shells made out of depleted uranium.

The last thing we did was to list, each and every day, the names of Americans, our allies, and Iraqis who had died that day. This was very difficult to obtain. The Pentagon released as little information as it could, and the dead Iraqis were almost entirely anonymous. We spent several hours a day checking home town news sources and various middle eastern news sources.

Eventually due to our mutual poor health we had to stop and closed down the website.

Now the point of all this. We had a counter on the site that kept track of the number of visitors we got. This counter provided a fair amount of information for most visitor, such as who they were or their IPA, their location, their local time, and their equipment. There were a few which were completely anonymous. It showed that we had quite a few visitors from the government. The CIA checked in about once a month. Halliburton checked in twice, I think. We were also visited by the NSA, the Justice Department, and the Army. Someone from the State Department would check on us from time to time from some unidentified place in the same timezone as Baghdad. These agencies knew we could see their information. Their purpose was intimidation.

Each time we got such a contact my wife would post a blog entry about it and illustrate the entry with a bitmap of the printout from the counter so that everyone who visited us could see for themselves that we were regularly checked on. She would also post entries on a few other peace blogs describing the latest visit. One of the places she did this was here, in DU. Some longtime members may recall this.

As I mentioned, we also got some contacts which were completely anonymous. I suspect these were from the keepers of the databases of dissidents. The blog spoke for itself. We vigorously opposed the war. But we weren't anonymous. Anyone can search on an URL and find out the name and address of the owner.
We still have the same names and address, and it chills me a little bit the government did not destroy this information, but still keeps it accessible.

We are and were then Quakers. Bush hated the Quakers because they had the temerity to oppose his war of conquest in Iraq. We oppose all war, but that didn't matter to Bush. He spied on Quaker meetings and tapped their phones. Our phone acted a little strangely for awhile. We would get clicks during conversations and sometime a noticeably increased delay between picking up the handset to make a call and getting a dial tone.

Thanks, Obama. Yet again you follow in the exact footprints of the criminal who ran things before you. Nice change.

[Robb]

65. That's laughable and smacks of paranoia, sorry.

...If you post something on a website, and a member of a government agency visits the website to read it, it's hardly "spying" on you and your wife. :eyes:

[Son Of Wendigo]

87. I disagree.

I worked for the federal government for over 30 years, although not for an agency which spied. This does give me some idea how the government works.

The agencies which looked us up were largely those who would be very interested in dissent. We were never visited by the Agriculture Department or the Interior Department, for example. And our phone was tapped at least for a short while.

In the 1960s local police agencies all across the country infiltrated and spied upon dissident groups. As far as I know those files have never been destroyed.

The government has a vested interest in monitoring people who go to the trouble to make their views known against some government policy. I'm sure they're doing this now, and based on recent news reports, they are reestablishing one of the Bush era programs specifically.

Did you do anything to try and stop Bush's war of conquest in Iraq? Did you put a website solely devoted to opposing the war and documenting its human cost? Did you contact your elected representatives? Did you participate in candlelight vigils to observe the 1000th US death or the 2000th US death. We did all these things.

Were you photographed by men in dark suits sitting in unmarked cars as you entered or left the local Quaker Peace Center. My wife was.

I suspect you did none of these things. But I do not judge you for not doing so. It is not my place. Equally true, it is not your place to judge me as "paranoid" because I write about what I actually experienced. I do resent your use of that word. It tells me what kind of person you are. Granted, what we experienced wasn't a lot. They didn't come here and secretly send me to Syria or Egypt for a little dose of rendition. Nevertheless, they were interested, and I am quite sure that pages from our website made it into their files. These files do still exist. By the way, the site meter also showed which pages they looked at.

Obama has continued various Bush programs. Anyone, including US citizens, may be be incarcerated indefinitely. The secret prisons at Guantanamo and Bagram are still open and being used. Obama has gotten court approval for assassinating US citizens overseas without benefit of trial or any sort of judicial proceeding. The courts just dismissed the lawsuit filed by Mahel Arar, a Canadian citizen, who was rendered to Syria and tortured for a year, until someone figured out they had the wrong guy and let him go. In Albania. Obama's Justice Department supported the position taken by the Bush Justice Department. Obama refuses to prosecute any Bush officials for lying us into a war (a federal crime) or torture (a federal crime and a violation of the Geneva Agreement,

Is there anything you care about outside of yourself that you would get involved in?

[Robb]

88. I'll say it again, it sounds like you're harboring paranoid delusions of grandeur.

If you post things related to government policy on a public website, you think people at desks at government agencies who read it are "spying on you."

Not to feed the fantasy, but if anyone really wanted to spy on you, they probably would be good enough not to get noticed by some guy who put up a website. Just sayin'. :shrug:

[ixion]

57. WTF!! Change??

Change, my arse. This is the final straw.

[Lost4words]

67. the term that comes to mind is "Bait & Switch" Im dissapointed,....

:banghead:

[FlyByNight]

66. All change isn't necessarily good

How long before this starts to look like COINTELPRO? Again.

Rights are for corporations, not the rest of us.

:grr:

[defendandprotect]

71. What the Repug destroyers can't do . . . the Dems will do for them . . thanks, Obama!!

[New Dawn]

76. Kick for truth.