Boy Scouts Defend First Amendment Right to Discriminate

[Ed Barrow]

Source: ABC News

The trial in Philadephia pitting the Boy Scouts against the city's insistence that it allow gays to participate is nearing a pivotal point when the gay teenager who triggered the suit is scheduled to take the stand.

Greg Lattera, now 18, who was kicked out of the scouts after he appeared in uniform on TV to declare he was gay, is listed as a witness for the city in the trial underway in U.S. District Court. The Cradle of Liberty Council is suing the city over an ultimatum to either renounce a national scouting policy against gays or be evicted from the city building it has been renting for $1 a year since 1928.

In testimony earlier this week, the retired chief executive of the Cradle of Liberty Council, Bill Dwyer, said the city ultimatum not only violates the council's First Amendment rights but also "would put us out of business."

A lawyer representing the City of Brotherly Love, David Smith, told the federal jury that the local scout leaders were "speaking out of both sides of their mouths" when they initially agreed with the city's anti-discrimination policy but then continued to use the national group's employment application, which stated that homosexuals, atheists, and agnostics would not be hired.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/philadelphia-tells-boy-scouts-stop-discrimnating-pay/story?id=10942357

[msongs]

1. the boy scouts need to pay full market rates for their facilities, its called competition nt

[cstanleytech]

28. Agree 100% there.

Its completely there right to decide who they want to be a member or work for them however neither the federal or state government should be granting the scouts any special privileges like they have been.

[nickinSTL]

2. they may have a 1st Amendment right to discriminate

(though I would dispute that)

but, that 1st Amendment right does not mean that the City has to support that in any way.

The Scouts do NOT have an inherent right to rent City property.

[davidinalameda]

8. that is the heart of the argument here

they do not have a right to rent any property

[Q3JR4]

29. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner.

"They may have a 1st amendment right to discriminate... but that 1st amendment right does not mean that the city has to support that in any way."

(^_^):thumbsup: (^_^):thumbsup:

Q3JR4.

[MineralMan]

3. Not a leg to stand on does the BSA.

The City is subsidizing them, so they must follow the city's anti-discrimination ordinances. It is that simple. They do not, so they cannot continue to be subsidized by the taxpayers. I rule for the defendant.

Sidebar: Dudes. If you're going to suck off the public tit, you gotta keep yourselves from biting it.

[PassingFair]

31. Unless you're the Salvation Army.

In that case, you have a special executive dispensation to discriminate.

[MineralMan]

32. Private organizations can discriminate in many ways.

The thing about the BSA is that they're being subsidized by the government in the form of $1 rent in a city-owned building. The city has laws that prohibit that discrimination, so they're hosed. It's very simple.

[PassingFair]

38. So is the Salvation Army.

They actually receive federal funding.

[the other one]

4. No tax-exempt for you!

Hate is okay, but not state-sanctioned hate.

[baldguy]

5. They don't have a First Amendment right to be subsidized by the taxpayers.

[northzax]

6. the Boy Scouts can discriminate against anyone they like

they are a private organization. the owner of a building (the City, in this case) can pass laws requiring all tenants to follow other laws. seems perfectly fair.

it is illegal for public accommodations to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in Philly. if the Boy Scouts want to use a public building, they need to follow that law. I fail to see why this is even going to court.

[tomm2thumbs]

7. how long before they declare themselves 'a church' ??

not that they aren't 2/3rds of the way there already

[RKP5637]

16. +1000 +++ Give them time. BSA = Bigots Society of America

[MadMaddie]

23. That's what I was thinking if they want to hold on to their

draconian laws then they can go rent from churches.

[markbark]

26. Funny you should mention "church"

The real reason for the gay ban is not the "ick factor" but that a lot of cash comes into the BSA coffers from the Church of Latter Day Saints AKA the Mormons.
The LDS Church has firmly enforced the "no pooftas" rule and has said that if the BSA allows gays, they walk.

Simple explanation: follow the money AKA The Golden Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules

[mikeytherat]

40. Wow. That explains my situation!

I was a Cub and Webelo, and was heading into Boy Scouts right at the time I lived in Layton, Utah. The local Troop was run through the LDS church, and the Troop's emphasis was helping the LDS church. I bailed on Scouts and hooked up with a program called O.E. (Outdoor Education) run through the local Junior and High school. I made my own snowshoes, took multi-day treks deep into the mountains, and did desert and deep-snow survival - all at the age of 12!

mikey_the_rat

[realisticphish]

9. I'm an Eagle Scout

and the fucking ironic thing is that you NEVER EVER heard about this in the scouts. That is to say, no one discussed homosexuality. No one cared! And the only religious thing we did was pray before meals at scout camp; I was a Christian at the time anyway, so I didn't care, but it was totally non-denominational; just a standard monotheistic dealy.

So, overall, the BSA needs to fucking drop the policy. JUST DROP IT. It's not a big deal inside the organization, so why is the leadership making a big fucking deal about it?

Well, the reason is the LDS Church, of course, but that's another matter entirely.

[MessiahRp]

20. Exactly!

I was one step below Eagle Scout when we moved to a different city and I didn't follow up but in all my years in Tiger Cubs/Cub Scouts/Boy Scouts we never once heard about homosexuality. It was never discussed.

Seems to me a few members of the top level leadership have unfortunately tainted the rest of the group with their hardcore right wing political leanings leaking into BSA policy.

Rp

[realisticphish]

22. Ironically

my mother was by scoutmaster for most of my time in scouts; how come it was ok for her to go on camping trips with boys, but not ok for a gay scoutmaster to go on trips with boys?

[MessiahRp]

25. Same here!

My Mom was a Den Mother for Cub Scout packs. Yep, this is the RW ideological belief that gay people want to force it onto others (which actually is their explanation for personally having gay thoughts at some point or another that they feel guilt over because of their ridiculously over restrictive 'morality' beliefs.)

[depakid]

33. Interestingly enough, it's not an issue in Australian scouting

as in- just not an issue.

[pinboy3niner]

10. Love the irony: "the Cradle of Liberty Council"

You just can't make this stuff up! :rofl:

[RKP5637]

17. LOL

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Taverner]

11. Note to DU: They weren't always this way

Back in the 70's and 80's, they were fairly progressive

But it looks as if the fundies got a hold of yet another great institution

[awoke_in_2003]

12. they are taking over...

just about every aspect of american life. We have been in a race toward the dark ages for some time.

[KansDem]

14. Just like the NRA

Wasn't it a true sportsman's association before turning into the rabid, right-wing, "2nd Amendment is the only Amendment" political organization it is today?

[nomorenomore08]

27. "No true sportsman" would join now!

:hide:

[panzerfaust]

30. Yep. When they went nutters and supported assault weapons they lost 1/3 to 1/2 of their membership

Including me, and, in perhaps one of the few decent decisions of his life, George Bush (Pater).

[beevul]

37. Hmm?

"supported assault weapons"


Whats "nutters" about opposing bans on semi-automatic weapons (regardless of the "features" they have)?

[RKP5637]

18. Around here all the RW churches support them! Today, BSA has become indoctrination camps! n/t

[AngryOldDem]

34. Don't know about that.

They had their own version of DADT, as I understand it.

[dballance]

13. FUCK the BSA. There is no First Amdenement right...

There is no First amendment right to practically free rent just because you've had it since 1928. The BSA can discriminate in its membership but the public doesn't have to subsidize them when they do.
FUCK YOU!

[RKP5637]

19. BSA today can go to hell. Former Eagle Scout. n/t

[cayanne]

15. I haven't supported the BS ofA or the Salvation Army

for many, many years for this very reason. There are too many valuable organizations and charities that do not discriminate that need the little money I have.

[Scuba]

21. A para-military organization that doesn't like gays. Shocking.

[4saken]

24. Yikes..

"the national group's employment application, which stated that homosexuals, atheists, and agnostics would not be hired."

Who would want their children with such a group?!?

Even "agnostics"? Then why are Christians hired, since any honest Christians is an agnostic-Christian. Or do they not hire honest people? The word agnostic implies that one does not claim knowledge regarding a god claim. To honestly have knowledge of something(to claim certainty) one must be able to define what it is that you are certain of with a primary attribute. However the Abrahamic god is not defined with a primary attribute, he is only defined with secondary, relational and negative attributes. Based on this, Christians are agnostic. A common attribute for god is "spirit", however this is just a negative attribute that merely states what it is not(not material), saying nothing about what it actually is. Asking someone if they believe in the Abrahamic god is similar to asking whether they believe in "this thing that's not blue, but bigger than a bread box". Since it is not properly defined you would be unable to claim any certainty regarding it.

[Jennicut]

35. Girl Scouts seem a bit better with a non-discrimination policy but

still very, very cautious. I looked it up because I have two young daughters, and they are interested in joining.
Just seems sad to teach kids to be bigots at a young age on the guise of being a good group for children.

[depakid]

41. It isn't just sad- but profoundly dysfunctional

and wholly at odds with what Girl or Boy scouts should be- and in many places are all about.

[and-justice-for-all]

36. 1 buck a year!!!! what the hell for??

what makes them so special? They should have to pay what any one else would have to pay.

$1 a year for the boy scouts since 1928 is ridiculous, why are the bigot rewarded? They might as well lease similar buildings at the rate to the KKK.

[John Kerry VonErich]

39. BSA is a federal funded group.

nt

[No Elephants]

42. there is a Supremes case that is relevant, but the current criminals in black robes would probably

overrule it.

http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_75/

See Shelley v. Kramer, too. But also see NAACP v. Button and other freedom of association cases.

I hate seeing important issues get to thisa batch of Supremes!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

43. Why I got my kid the hell out of the program.

I didn't want him to turn into a fucking brownshirt.

[brendan120678]

44. What the article doesn't mention...

not that it has much relevance, is that the BSA actually built that building themselves, with their own money, on city-owned land.
They agreed with the city to rent the land in perpetuity for $1 per year.
The fact that the building is on city property makes it a city-owned building.

[E-Z-B]

45. I don't think a contract/agreement can extend into perpetuity.

[brendan120678]

46. I believe you're correct...

I don't know the explicit Terms of the actual agreement, but I'll guess that it is something like, x# of years with options to continuously extend the agreement.