Biden: Israel right to stop Gaza flotilla from breaking blockade

[Scurrilous]

Source: Haaretz

VP Biden tells Charlie Rose that the Israel Navy might not have needed to drop commandos onto the Gaza-bound ship, but insists that Israel is entitled to defend its security.

<snip>

"U.S. Vice President Joe Biden on Wednesday defended Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip and its decision to intercept the pro-Palestinian flotilla bringing humanitarian aid to the coastal territory, though he did not go so far as to defend the botched Israel Navy raid that killed nine people earlier this week.

In an interview with Charlie Rose, Biden pointed out that Israel had given pro-Palestinian activists the option of unloading their cargo at the Ashdod port, and offered to bring it to the Gaza Strip on their behalf.

"They've said, 'Here you go. You're in the Mediterranean. This ship -- if you divert slightly north you can unload it and we'll get the stuff into Gaza,'", he said. "So what's the big deal here? What's the big deal of insisting it go straight to Gaza? Well, it's legitimate for Israel to say, 'I don't know what's on that ship. These guys are dropping… 3,000 rockets on my people.

"Look, you can argue whether Israel should have dropped people onto that ship or not -- but the truth of the matter is, Israel has a right to know -- they're at war with Hamas -- has a right to know whether or not arms are being smuggled in."

Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/biden-israel-right-to-stop-gaza-flotilla-from-breaking-blockade-1.293833

[hlthe2b]

1. Our foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel sucks...

there seems to be no bounds on what they can do and still be defended by us.

[maynard32]

91. No bounds indeed.

[wordpix]

92. here is an explanation from an Israeli citizen's POV, not a politician's

Dear M&G,

It seems almost a hopeless task to try and explain what happened
yesterday. We are really bad at public relations, while those who hate
us are brilliant at it. But I'll give it a try.

The blockade on Gaza, as you probably know, is to prevent the
abundant flow of armaments that are used to kill as many of us as
possible. The Hamas, which controls Gaza, and does not recognize
Israel's right to exist, has been sending rockets and missiles into
Israel for years. Since the blockade, and since our defamed but
justified attack a year ago January, and since Egypt has helped to seal
the tunnels from Sinai, there have been less missiles. If the blockade
is removed, Iran will have no hesitation to send as much weaponry as
possible. Meanwhile, we are supplying the residents of Gaza with food
and medicine regularly and also treating their sick in our hospitals.

Therefore, when we were informed about the fleet that was coming to show
the world how monstrous we were to the poor children in Gaza, there was
a big debate about whether our policy about the blockade should be
changed. It was decided that in order to protect our citizens we could
not affort to lift the blockade. But what to do about the flotilla? We
offered them time and again to bring their supplies to our port of
Ashdod and we would let them personally supervise their transport to
Gaza. They refused because they wanted a confrontation and a provocation
with lots of publicity. Their response to our offers were coarse (fuck
you) although they showed pictures of how peace loving they were. Our
naval fleet announced to them with loudspeakers in English that they
were requested to dock in Ashdod, and they responded with "Jihad".

Nonetheless, when our commando sailors came down ropes onto the
decks, without weapons in their hands, they were immediately mobbed,
stabbed, hit with hatchets, and thrown overboard. It was clearly an
attempt at lynch. One sailor's gun was snatched and he was shot at, as
were all the others. Therefore, they returned fire. We saw pictures of
this twelve hours after all the world had heard about how we had mowed
down innocent peace lovers.

We made some serious mistakes. We should have thrown tear gas. But
for some reason our navy also believed the propaganda that there would
be no violence, and that was stupid. Tomorrow more ships are coming and
I hope we handle it differently. The five ships that did not respond
with aggression were safely brought into Ashdod.

On board one of the other ships was an Arab member of Knesset. Is
there another country that would tolerate a state representative showing
allegiance to a terrorist organization? Why are we always shown to be in
the wrong? Does anyone outside Israel hear our point of view?

No one wants Gaza. The Egyptians don't want it although we offered to
have them take over many times. We certainly don't want it, and we
showed that by withdrawing several years ago. The people there voted in
the Hamas, and now they are suffering with the results. There is enough
hatred bred there to poison the Arab world and more. What a bind. They
could be living in peace and prosperity if they stopped sending missiles
and acknowledged our right to exist. Now, as usual, we are the bad ones.

Please excuse this diatribe. It's all just so frustrating and I felt
I had to make some kind of an explanation.

Lots of love,
Anita

[chimpymustgo]

103. POPPYCOCK.

Edited to tone down rage and language.

[Violet_Crumble]

109. Complete crap like that 'email' aren't worth getting angry over...

It's chockablock full of outright dishonesty, anti-Arab racism, and stupidity. It's interesting that I know a few Israelis and not one of them would write an email like that. It really does come across as some Hasbara thing where a form email is being circulated by 'supporters' of Israel. I haven't looked into it yet to see if that's the case or not, but it really wouldn't surprise me....

[Kelvin Mace]

2. Israel had a right to simply disable the boat

without dropping down from the sky guns blazing.

It also had the expertise to do just that. Instead, the Israeli government made a conscious, deliberate decision to murder people.

It is statements like Bidens' that prove to me time and again that American politicians have not an ounce of spine about Israel, and are prepared to defend what it does not matter how immoral, illegal or vile.

[gateley]

4. Biden said essentially the same thing you're saying -- they had the right to

know what was in the boat, but he doesn't say that the violent action was warranted. And Obama isn't coming out absolving them, either. It's a tricky spot for them, but I bet they're pissed about what happened. Just my opinion, natch. :7

[Kelvin Mace]

27. No, he's saying half of what I said.

My disgust is with the complete lack of repudiation for cold-blooded murder.

There are several ways Israel could have stopped that ship without harming a single person aboard, yet the consciously decided to use murderous force.

A responsible nation (I know, that leaves out a LOT of people) uses force appropriate to the threat posed. A bunch kids pulling a wagon of Cheetos and window caulking to the neighbor you don't like is not a license to pounce on them from trees, guns blazing. Yeah, it is conceivable that they COULD be carrying bazookas for your neighbor to use on you, but there are at least a dozen ways for mature ADULTS to determine how much of a threat the wagon is that doesn't involve dead people.

[gateley]

29. Yeah - you're right. They're not coming out and calling it what it is. They're

gingerly stepping around it.

Hasn't Obama demanded to find out what's going on? When it becomes obvious that this action wasn't warranted, I wonder how they (the administration) will address it.

[Kelvin Mace]

80. They will hope that by then

we will have moved on to something else.

Sadly, we probably will.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

7. Isn't that what Biden is saying?

[Kelvin Mace]

23. No, not really

We agree that Israel has a right to stop the ship if it can demonstrate a credible threat, he in NO WAY repudiates Israel's use of murderous force to do so, when it did not have to.

In fact, in this article I am see no criticism of Israel.

[EFerrari]

9. Well, no, they didn't have a right to disable that vessel.

But the cornucopia of cr@p about what the right wing Israeli leadership is entitled to do reached mythic proportions long ago. To the detriment of the Israeli people and to ours, not to mention, to the people of Gaza.

[Kelvin Mace]

17. If you are going to claim a danger

then you can repel such danger with reasonable and appropriate force. If you walk up to me and I feel threatened, I don't get to shoot you dead (well, not unless I am a cop, and I can claim you had a gun).

The question as to whether Israel had a right to stop the ship is debatable. The fact that they used illegal murderous force to do so, is not.

[EFerrari]

42. The occupation, illegal. The blockade, illegal.

The boarding, illegal.

It's a pyramid scheme.

I don't mean to rag on you, Kelvin. It's just enough to give a person vertigo how this spin becomes conventional wisdom.

[Pavulon]

43. The wars in 46, 67, and 73 were illegal

and they did give egypt their desert back. This conflict is a backwater event in us policy. It has no bearing on trade or commerce, its a pure distraction. It just has noisy howlers on both sides.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. There are several techincal legal writeups that said they do under the LOS

Dershowitz for one, there are others.

[EFerrari]

49. Dershowitz is a propagandist, not a legal authority. And that's the best that can be said about him

ETA: Every single member of the Security Council but us has called for an end to the siege of Gaze -- a policy which has only empowered Hamas.

[CynicalObserver]

59. you are correct, this blockade fully complied with LoS as long-established.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

66. Some here attack the source rather than address the legal arguments, since its clearly beyond them

Those that understand the relevant law focus on attacking the MEZ/blockade since everything else hangs on that. To date it has had universal recognition but that may now change. Claims of piracy etc are quite specious since it was clearly a state action. There are other holes in the hyperbole, but that kind of detail gets lost in the emotionalism of things.

This was still the hot topic on campus today. I participate in a daily coffee meet with several other faculty members. When I raised that there were claims it was legal I was surprised to see that many people were aware of that possibility. One of my colleagues laid the entire defense out, seriously surprising me. At this point, there looks like the "it was perfectly legal" has got some legs not that it matters to the media and others.

However, all the legal stuff aside, the question remains whether or not the blockade is right. That too has some serious legs.

[CynicalObserver]

87. someone pointed out to me that Egypt is running a parallel

blockade of gaza. The fact most people don't even know this says more about how media coverage of the entire topic is slanted towards forming a particular bias in people. I also don't see blockade runners on the egyptian side, or coverage of how egypt controls their side of the border with gaza, etc.

[wordpix]

97. see my post #92---Israel has offered Gaza to Egypt several times & Egypt doesn't want it

but don't let little things like FACTS get in the way of DU's hatred of everything Israeli.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. Facts sure arent' getting in the way in this sub-thread...

From the bizarre claim that it's legal for Israel to do what it did to the flotilla in international waters, to that last one about how Israel offered Gaza to Egypt in the past, it's just been a display of totally incorrect claims...

I'll address yr claim here as I'm replying to you and yrs is a very simple one for most. Gaza is and was occupied territory. It's occupied by Israel. Israel does not have the right to 'offer' that territory to another state as though it's some sort of gift Israel can give away. The people of Gaza, just like Israelis, have the right to self-determination, and that last point really seems to escape some people...

btw, it's pretty lame to accuse people of 'hating' Israel just because they quite rightfully criticise it. That sort of accusation is very similar to the way US conservatives accuse anyone who used to criticise Bush of 'hating' America...

[harkadog]

39. Disable the boat and then what?

Leave them adrift at Sea? Then you would complain about that. At some point they would have to be boarded and then the Israelis would have been attacked. It was set up in advance. As one person aboard the ship was quoted "We had two good outcomes, Gaza or martyrdom."

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. Read the legal writeups on this...a couple were posted yesterday

[Kelvin Mace]

88. Hardly

If they had disabled the ship, the ship would have to have been towed in. The crew would have no choice.

Again, there were two ways to handle this. 1) Disable the ship's screws (something Naval commandos are very good at), which has a minuscule chance of hurting anyone. 2) Go in with murderous force.

Israel chose to kill people.

Also, what is your source for the quote?

[alarimer]

83. In international waters they do not have the right to do that.

This was an act of piracy at least.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

85. Under CLOS they do...since it was action taken by a state, its not piracy

[Lasher]

3. Biden is right.

Hamas is not giving Egypt or Israel any choice.

[proteus_lives]

10. +1

[sailor65]

37. + 1 more

but watch how fast the bulk of DU turns on Biden. It's a shame because he's right.

[EFerrari]

45. That reminds me of the old Woody Allen routine

I hit his fist with my eye.

lol

[Dutch]

73. + another 1

Biden is entirely correct, and no doubt will get slaughtered for it around here now that the anti-Israel frenzy has been whipped up to fever pitch.

[leftynyc]

81. Another +1

Asking the Israelis to trust Hamas is madness. And for the poster who suggested disabling the boat, I have a question, then what? Let it drift at sea and wait for everyone to starve?

[wordpix]

93. +1

[Ignis]

98. Hamas shot a US citizen on an aid mission 4x in the head?

Wow.

Does Hamas have some sort of secret mind-control ray they used on the IDF commandos that forced them to shoot live ammo into a crowd of civilians from a helicopter?

That's some scary shit!

[EFerrari]

5. Wow. How embarrassing.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

24. embarrassing for the US isolation R us n/t

[azurnoir]

26. delete wrong place n/t

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

41. Guessed you missed the national news. More footage from the ships cameras of "peace activists"

preparing with gas masks and metal pipe. You meme has fallen apart. Video had no side and unlike words conveys truth.

[Ignis]

110. LOL @ "Video had no side and unlike words conveys truth."

The raw, unedited video? Perhaps.

The snippets released by the IDF? Not so much.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madrchsod]

6. so this is the official statement from our president since......

biden can only speak for the president .

why am i not surprised.

this is why i`m not voting for obama in 2012.

[swilton]

22. The change one can't believe in

[maynard32]

89. lol

[Trillo]

8. If the humanitarian aid goes through Israel to Gaza, instead

of straight to Gaza, how do honest folks verify that 100% of the goods donated get to their final destination in Gaza?

We've certainly read of plenty of reports in Africa that such humanitarian goods are often confiscated and sold by "warlords", never to reach some of the poorest folks they were intended for.

[SnakeEyes]

12. Warlords - Israeli government... not the same.

Also, Hamas who are warlords will control it.

[proteus_lives]

13. That's going to happen anyway.

All goods coming into the Strip will be controlled by Hamas(warlords) and they decide who gets what.

[Arctic Dave]

15. Hamas, elected officials. Bibi, fucking asshole murderer

israels government, cowardly shitbags. IDF commandos, cowardly shitbags.

[wordpix]

96. uh, Bibi is also an elected official

geesh

[Blue_Tires]

14. I'm surprised at how many people are going along with this...

When this incident first broke, I just knew that the IDF would have to magically "find" a huge cache of guns, ammo and explosives below the decks in order to make it justified and get U.S. support and approval -- But a lot of people are lining up to give it to them even without a cover story...

[IndianaGreen]

16. Israel would have murdered in cold blood the likes of Gandhi and Mandela were they Palestinians

and Israel's megaphones in America would have gone in full spin accusing Gandhi and Mandela of being terrorists.

[wordpix]

94. you're wrong and tone down the rhetoric---save your bile for BP

[Jim Sagle]

18. Fuckin' A.

[Mari333]

19. Biden=Coward.

[ixion]

21. Indeed...

[Wizard777]

20. Hey Joe! What's the big deal about Arizona ensuring people are there legally?

Oh yeah, he forgot about that didn't he? I guess he's all for that now. The flip side is that israel is racist for wanting to stop them to check their papers.

[Sebastian Doyle]

25. This is the dumbest move Biden has made since he sponsored the Bankruptcy "reform" bill.

And at least he had an excuse (lame as it is) for that. There is NO excuse for fellating the murderous NuttyYahoo regime.

[Wizard777]

32. Israel just put him in deep shit on several different domestic and foreign Issues.

:banghead: Dumbass!

[azurnoir]

28. and meanwhile

AIPAC draws the line any and every politician wanting their support must toe

AIPAC's Web site : "Radical Hamas Supporters Beat, Stab Israeli Soldiers."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x316510#316759

and we got some damn good tight rope walkers out there perhaps they should find new jobs with the circus

[makemyday]

30. Attacking the ships in International Waters

The attack was carried out in International Waters. Ships were boarded. People were killed. The ships were commandeered. Passengers and ships were taken to Israel against their will.

When a rogue nation carries out this kind of activity, it is is called PIRACY on the high seas.

At best, as an act of war, the IDF was performing in place of a PRIVATEER...a PIRATE.

At worst attacking a flagged ship was an military act of aggression against a sovereign state.

[Pavulon]

44. Guess the administration, state dept and people that set global policy

dont see it that way. But hey it was a great stunt.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. You might want to read the multple sources pointing out legal justification

In a nutshell if they were going after ships that had declared they were intending to violate a declared blockade, under CLOS, its legal. Not saying its right, but there appears to be a very strong case that it was legal.

[Wizard777]

31. Hey Joe! The world has a right to know about Israels nuclear weapons as well as Iran's!

Oh yeah, he forgot about that, didn't he? Just look at all the foreign and domestic issues Israel just forced Joe and the Democrats to abandon. We might as well start calling ourselves Republicans now. Because that's what we'll be when Israel is finished with Biden.



:banghead: until that damned wall falls!

[Wizard777]

33. Hey Joe! Why can't we seal our boarders like Gaza?

[Wizard777]

34. Hey Joe! When are you gonna have the IDF start training the Arizona Police?

[mike_c]

35. Biden insists on Israel's right to starve Gazens and perform ethnic cleansing....

Well, that was probably the final nail in any possibility of my supporting this administration in the future. Israel is America's biggest foreign policy embarrassment, or maybe just one of its longest running. I deplore my government's support for the apartheid regime in Israel.

Not in my name.

[Wizard777]

36. Hey Joe! Where are they going with that gun in their hand?

:rofl:

This move was so stupid you just have to laugh at it at some point.

[Pavulon]

38. They say never say I told you so , however

I expressly called this days ago. State Dept and Maritime law are pretty consistent here. Guess this did not work according to plan folks.

[proteus_lives]

46. It went to according to someone's plan.

Hamas and the other forces in the Strip have new martyrs to play with.

[EFerrari]

51. The world has now seen how humanitarian missions to Gaza are treated.

This goes so far beyond Hamas.

[proteus_lives]

52. The world would have seen how they are treated if they gone to the port.

Instead of thumbing their nose at Israel. Those supplies would be Gaza if PR wasn't such a concern.

[EFerrari]

53. False. The UN has documented that over 60% of the children in Gaza

are deformed from malnutrition.

That is how Israel performs when left to itself.

I'm sorry. This is wrong.

[Pavulon]

55. I thought you meant they were deformed from DU

thats a big number, any backing?

[Trillo]

68. 60% mentioned here

"Over 60 per cent of Palestinians currently live below the poverty line, with two million living on less than US$ 2.1 a day"

"At least 69 per cent have received psychological counselling to help to alleviate symptoms caused by constant exposure to traumatic incidents, including the harassment and humiliation endured by their parents"

"More than 25 per cent of children suffer from chronic malnutrition."

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/9E25D7E0679F052185256F43006A0F9C

[proteus_lives]

99. "The UN has documented that over 60% of the children in Gaza"

But I bet the soldiers and honchos of Hamas eat well.

Their leaders too, I mean the ones not living in luxury in Syria and Iran.

[fascisthunter]

54. you definitely won't get my vote

fuck that... this cements it for me. Playing favoritism to actions like this over humanitarian aid? Thanks but no thanks chumly.

[meow mix]

56. -1,000,000

booo

[catgirl]

57. Your title is misleading

Biden doesn't say they "were right to stop Gaza flotilla..."

[depakid]

58. Biden still can't seem to resist going on TV and opening his big fat mouth

and becoming an embarrassment.

So much for the US rehabilitating its image around the world.

[wordpix]

95. Biden is VP---you prefer Dick Cheney's mouth? or Rand Paul's, maybe?

[Ignis]

107. ...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=false+dichotomy&l=1

[lumpy]

61. Biden doesn't really care about the Gaza citizens welfare

apparently. Or the deaths of humanitarians by unconsciencable death mongers. He speaks from his unassailable ivory tower. So much for our American political aristocracy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. Clue: No one does. Not Syria, nor Iran, nor Jordan, nor Hamas, nor the members of the flotilla

They are tools to be used and left to bleed in the sand. Until they decide to be no ones tool, the cycle of death will continue.

[Ignis]

108. Any evidence that not a single one of the flotilla volunteers cares?

I've spoken with several of the US volunteers, and unless you're calling them outright liars, they very much care.

[thewiseguy]

63. Why is this dumbass our VP?

What good is he? Really?

[Nihil]

75. Performing the same function as Lieberman would have done ...

... for Gore if BushCo hadn't managed to pull off their plans A & B ...

There's nothing quite like an insurance policy is there?

[truthisfreedom]

65. If Biden is speaking for Obama to protect Obama from the heat, I hope that helps deflect any trouble

Because it really doesn't read very well, and I can see how the 'thugs could play this into something negative for Dems.

[The abyss]

67. Obviously Biden is insane

And a part of the problem

So what else is new?

[Malikshah]

69. Biden joins a long line of (un)-illustrious cowards for Israel. Not surprising, yet

as ever, disappointing.

Joe-- you have more access to details -- you have no right to make bone-headed statements on this issue to to display your cravenness toward Israel.

[boppers]

70. Israel has publicly said, many times, that they don't allow building materials.

They *never* had any intent on letting it through, because it contained concrete, which Israel considers to be military goods.

Joe is mis-informed.

[Douglas Carpenter]

71. this is disgraceful and harmful to America's national interest

[IndianaGreen]

72. and puts our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan in increased danger

Another reckless Biden foot-in-mouth incident.

[harun]

74. Fail. Does American aid to Israel go through Gaza for inspection? I mean what's the big

deal here, they would pass it right on to Israel.

[Freddie Stubbs]

77. Gaza is not a sovereign nation

Israel is. Big difference.

[harun]

78. Gaza isn't a sovereign nation because Israel won't let it be one.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

86. Gaza is not capable of being its own state

[Violet_Crumble]

101. Gaza is part of a future Palestinian state, and it has been capable in the past...

As the other poster pointed out, Israel has refused to allow that to happen...

[No Elephants]

76. At "war" with Hamas, so that gives them the right to do anything to anyone anywhere? Is

anyone keeping a list of every fake "war" in which each nation claims to be engaged?

I think a list would be useful.

[harun]

79. I was thinking the same thing. By their own reasoning we are at

war with Gaza (Hamas), Lebanon (Hezbollah), Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan (tribal regions) and North Korea. All of which we have no Congressional declaration of war.

Works great for the war-profiteers, not so sure about the rest of us.

[DOOMS]

82. He is right

and Israel is a sovereign nation with every right to defend itself, not other counties have no right to challenge them in this manner clearly aimed at provoking them. We kill innocent Pakistani/Iraqi civilians in the war on terror all the time. When you are at risk as a nation you cannot take chances as easily as some suggest. Hamas want to slit their throats. Iran wants to send them to heck. Israel prefers that not happen.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. No, he's not. Israel, like every other country, must comply with international law...

It doesn't matter how much colourful rhetoric gets pumped into a post, the fact is that Israel is NOT protecting itself by attacking an aid convoy and killing civilians involved in it. It isn't protecting itself by refusing to allow basic items such as shoes and clothes into Gaza. And it sure isn't protecting itself by continuing to abuse and mistreat the Palestinian population and build settlements in the West Bank..

[Fozzledick]

84. The guy has a talent for stating the obvious!

[Violet_Crumble]

104. It's an illegal blockade and they killed those people in international waters...

What's obvious is that Israel is a state that's totally out of control...

[maynard32]

90. Of course! You think it is right.

[goforit]

100. Emmanuel's influence on this administration is sickening.

[Pavulon]

106. Anything to back that up or is it just the jew thing?(nt)