Israel risks losing 'sole friend' in Mideast, Turkish PM Erdogan tells Obama

[Catherina]

Source: Hurriyet Daily News

Wednesday, June 2, 2010

ANKARA — Agence France-Presse

Israel risks losing Turkey, its "sole friend" in the Middle East, after its deadly raid on aid ships, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan told U.S. President Barack Obama, his office said Wednesday.

"Israel is faced with the danger of losing its sole friend in the region and the greatest contributor so far to regional peace," the statement quoted Erdogan as telling Obama in a one-hour telephone conversation.

"The steps that it Israel will undertake in the coming days will determine its position in the region," Erdogan said.

He told Obama that Monday's operation on an international flotilla carrying supplies to the Gaza Strip, which resulted in several deaths, was "unacceptable lawlessness," the statement said.

Erdogan stressed that Israel's blockade of Gaza, in place since 2007, should be lifted and called on Israel to release the passengers and vessels of the seized flotilla.

...

On Tuesday, a furious Erdogan urged international sanctions against Israel, calling the raid a "bloody massacre" and slamming the country as "a festering boil in the Middle East that spreads hate and enmity, dynamites regional peace and spreads instability."


Read more: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=israel-risks-losing-sole-friend-in-mideast---turkish-pm-2010-06-02

[SILVER__FOX52]

1. And he is exactly......

RIGHT !!!

[demoleft]

2. if i have to judge by barak's words today, the friend is lost. or should be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8467908

i would expect reactions in israel, reactions of the people, asking their government and military - "what the hell are you doing in our name? we're not like that!"

i'll wait on it.

[Catherina]

6. Barak's cynical coverup is his undoing

a child can see right through the lies coming from Israeli officials. I won't hold my breath.

[ExPatLeftist]

13. Why do you both misspell the president's name? n/t

[Forkboy]

14. Ehud Barak

Ministry of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister of Israel.

[lib2DaBone]

18. Mr. Barak......."Tear Down That Wall"....

[MindandSoul]

16. It's not the same person!. . .

[sabrina 1]

3. Everyone is telling Israel to lift the blockade. Except the U.S.

I hope Obama listens. This is an incredible opportunity to get the whole world behind a real effort for peace. If the world is united now, which it appears to be, it would be a terrible mistake to miss this opportunity while Israel is in the position it is now in.

I feel as if we in the U.S. have been so isolated from this. The rest of the world to their credit, never forgot the plight of the Palestinians. I feel ashamed that we in the U.S. move on so quickly from tragic events like the invasion of Gaza.

If even the beginnings of peace in the region were to be the result of this horrible incident, those heroes would not have died in vain.

[demoleft]

4. "an incredible opportunity to get the whole world behind a real effort for peace" - agreed. n/t

[MindandSoul]

17. YES! I hope the U.S. won't miss participating on the right side of this issue!

[Catherina]

7. I'm sure those heroes knew the risks and were prepared to sacrifice themselves

This is the world's opportunity. Escort the other ships to Gaza to break the blockade. If the US obstructs these genuine peace efforts, then ignore it.

Activist from all over the world are putting their lives on the line. They need support while they're alive. I'm ashamed too.

[jberryhill]

12. The Israeli's Just Laugh At Us

They know we won't do or say a thing.

[depakid]

57. "I feel as if we in the U.S. have been so isolated from this"

That's because the rest of the world isn't limited in what it see and hears to what the American corporate media and AM radio host puts out there for consumption.

[Dutch]

5. Israel lost its 'sole friend' in the middle east as soon as Erdogan and the religious-right

took power. Flushing Turkey's historically excellent relations with Israel has been a key element in their efforts to ingratiate themselves with local Arab dictatorships and, in particular, Iran- as well as their ongoing efforts to whip up Turkey's resident religious fruitcakes into a fanatical fervour and push the nation away from secularism, making life a lost less pleasant for ordinary secular, progressive Turks- especially those that happen to be female.

[sabrina 1]

9. Well, to be honest, none of that has anything to do with

the issues here. Turkey, religious or otherwise, are not responsible for Israel's disastrous blockade of Gaza, nor are they responsible for Israel's decision to attack the ships.

Israel's decisions to invade Lebanon and Gaza lost the country support from around the world. Just as the U.S. invasion of Iraq lost world respect for this country.

If you care about Israel at all, you will not try to defend these actions as no one is listening anymore. People are being brutalized on a daily basis in Gaza. Do you really think people can support that?

Here, and apparently Israel, such brutality towards other human beings doesn't seem to matter. But in other parts of the world, it does, a lot. They are not yet so hardened to human suffering that they can 'rationalize' it. And when they see us and Israel do it, have so little respect for human life, they are disgusted, and rightfully so.

The best thing Israel can do now, is stop playing the victim, they are not. That only angers people more. Grow up, take responsibility and express remorse for this horrendous act. That would help diffuse some of the anger.

Finally, start listening to the rest of the world. Having the U.S. on their side will not help them anymore as the U.S. itself is being watched now. How will this new administration react to the killings of citizens of its allies? They have to make a choice, support Israel's wrongdoing, or join the rest of the world and start laying down the rules for a change, instead of allowing Israel to continue to act like an out-of-control child. It is obvious now that leaving the resolution of the situation between Israel and Palestine in the hands of Israel won't work, they have failed. That failure has cost far too many lives and it must stop.

The world will have to step in and make some decisions for them as we cannot allow them to provoke a war with any other country. We do not need more wars. It is NOT now just about Israel's security, it is about OURS, the rest of the world. And that is something Israel needs to be forced to understand. They have made this only about them for too long. It is not, there are other lives just as important as theirs and it's about time they learn that.

[IsItJustMe]

11. I would not hold my breath in expecting our government to do the right thing here.

In the past, there have been American activists killed by Isreal and our government never said a word.

Seems like Isreal can, and will, do anything it wants to with the tacid approval of the US. The only President in my life time who ever dared call Isreal out was Jimmy Carter.

Since then, Democrats and Republicans alike have bowed down to whatever Isreal does.

Something bad wrong with our leadership when it comes to issues dealing with Isreal, but it is what it is.

[Imajika]

22. This is correct...

This used to be the kind of thing Turkey tried to prevent. Prior to the current rise of the Islamists, Turkey would never have allowed those ships to fly the Turkish flag at all. Turkey would not have allowed itself to get drawn into a fight with Israel.

The religious right is in charge now though and this is precisely the fight they wanted. It has been inevitable for awhile, and probably signals the end of Turkey choosing the Western sphere of influence and instead aligning itself with the arab bloc.

Funny that people will cheer this because they object to Israel's actions, yet seem to have no clue what they are suppporting. This same Turkish government they are applauding is rapidly eroding Turkey's secular nation and moving it towards being a religious state instead.

[David__77]

24. Turkey's gov't no more religious than Israel.

The Turkish ruling party is moderately conservative and religious in the sense the Christian Democrats in Europe are. They are ecumenical. Mind you, I would certainly NOT vote for them, but they've become well-integrated into the secular state politics in Turkey. Erdogan does want smooth relations with Iran, yes, but so do many countries in the EU. In the long run, Turkey's relations with Israel will be fine.

[Hatalles]

36. +1

[lordcommander]

54. However there is one thing that prevents Turkey drifting away from secularism,

The Turkish Military. They are the staunch defenders of Kemal Atatürk and Turkish secularism. If the religious right in Turkey tries to do anything against secularism, the Turkish Military will overthrow them.

[Catherina]

8. Here is what PM Erdogan told the Turkish Parliament today

Erdogan addressing the Parliament said: “Today is a turning point in our history. Nothing will be the same again ... It is no longer possible to cover up or ignore Israel’s lawlessness. This bloody massacre by Israel on ships that were taking humanitarian aid to Gaza deserves every kind of curse. This attack is on international law, the conscience of humanity and world peace. Israel in no way can legitimize this murder. It cannot wash its hand of this blood.”. The Turkish Prime Minister went on affirming his country's determination to stand alongside the Palestinians, under any conditions: “We will not turn our back on Palestine, Palestinians and Gaza, even if nobody backs them. Once again we call on Israel to immediately end its inhumane blockade of Gaza”.

http://www.arabmonitor.info/news/dettaglio.php?idnews=30707&lang=en


"the insolent, irresponsible and impudent attack by Israel, which went against law and trampled human honor underfoot, must definitely be punished."

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/world/7328709/world-leaders-demand-probe-into-israel-raid/

[sabrina 1]

10. Wow, very strong words. To come right out and say they will

support the Palestinians. I think that would have been impossible one week ago. Israel would have totally condemned Turkey, and they would have ended up apologizing.

I'm sure Obama and Hillary were not pleased to hear those words from him. Clearly Hillary clearly did not succeed in 'calming everyone down'.

The U.S. now must make a choice between joining the rest of the world and working for peace with or without Israel's consent, or isolation from the rest of the world.

I am beginning to have hope that something good will come of those tragic deaths after all.

[Ignis]

23. Wow. Now imagine if OUR politicians had a spine.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

[harun]

55. They have spine when it comes to protecting their masters.

(Meaning the uber rich, not Israel)

[David__77]

25. He's probably gotten a tremendous poll boost out of all this.

Just saying... Turkish voters have been far out of synch with the foreign policy implemented in the past, somewhat under military duress.

[sabrina 1]

27. Of course there would be support for him. He is expressing

natural outrage over the killing of many of Turkey's citizens. Ireland also is outraged since several of their citizens have been kidnapped and held without any access by the Irish Embassy or their families. Germany, Spain, Kuwait, Jordon, Italy, Nicaragua and many, many more countries have all expressed similar outrage.

Supporters of the brutal policies of Israel have lost sight of ordinary human reactions to an attack on unarmed humanitarians. There is just something so intrinsically against every decent human perception of right and wrong in doing something like this.

And then to make the ludicrous claim that any of it was justified because one of the most powerful, armed militaries in the world were met with a few people trying to defend themselves with whatever they could find (wooden implements we are told now, and there were no knives according to eye-witnesses) really just makes them look worse.

Turks are reacting in exactly the same way as many, many other nations regardless of their past history. Their citizens were killed. That is reason enough for their reaction.

[swilton]

15. Incredible Opportunity

Equal in significance to the opportunities to shift oil addiction brought on by the oil spill in the Gulf.

[abubalboola]

19. the public discussion chooses the leave some facts aside?

it is fully understandable why Turkey is outraging. Turkish citizen were killed by a neighboring country. No country can accept that.
however, quietly, behind the scenes, PM Erdogan should remind himself that it is reasonable to assume that ... however flawed was the israeli planning, however questionable is the gaza siege, how wrong is the whole chain of decisions made by the israelis... ... it is still possible to assume that not ALL passengers were peaceFUL activists. There was only a handful of passengers who were violent. This handful of violent activists were actually willing to kill an israeli soldier. An israeli soldier that went to full fill an indeed questionable mission, yet he had no idea that among the peaceful activists, there are those who do not share the same peaceful intentions...

would it look different if no violence was used by the violent activists?
probably yes. the cargo would reach its destiny, the message to the world would have been clear and respectable, not a bit less.
the peace activists will have to check themselves now.
and yes, also Israel.
and yes, also Turkey should.
and yes, the whole world should check what the hamas is doing in Gaza also.
So Turkey has the right to be angry. But at the same time, do not forget that the peaceful activists went to visit in Gaza, where a deadly terror organization, who lost the sympathy of Egypt, Jordan and the Fatah.
all must ask themselves - why the hamas lost those allies.


Sad. All looses.
Time for a change. Need to search for the way. So all could go on forward.

abubaboola,
http://mideastoptimism.blogspot.com/

[peacetalksforall]

20. Why do you not believe the words of the Sweditsh author-humanitarian who

is telling us that they all agreed that they would not carry arms. That they had no guns. He was sleeping below the deck. He saw the aftermath - first-hand.

What did the famous intelligence service of Israel find out about Hamas being on board with guns? Well, there will be plenty of testimony and investigations. Israel will be defending their claims of guns sooner than later.

Right now it is all PURE propaganda.

Just as the right wing regime in this country goes out of their way to hang on to their very loyal voters and stuffs them with hate propaganda, it's the same in Israel with their supporters of sustained war. Now, they are trying to convince the world, but they are saying nothing that is convincing.

Your words are just like their words. Are you sure your words are simply what you WANT to believe - as we are given to do.

Hamas made me do it - wore out a long time ago.

DU is a rough place to try to convince the regulars to this forum. Most of the people here are good at suspecting BS and they have been proven right many times. You will find some who will support your on DU.

The reputation of Israel took a nose dive. Sorry to be so blunt.

Rappelers with guns. Helicopters with machine gunnists. Big and small boats with bombs and guns.

Aid activists with guns has to be proven. That can be the core of your work - dig up the proof.

[abubalboola]

28. I do believe this activist. but one does not reflect all

I truly believe he was unarmed and that his intentions were good.
However, looking at the videos I see an angry mob beating up soldiers with clubs and throwing one off board. This is sheer violence!
Out of all the 600 activists on board, there was only a handful of violent tugs. That was enough to spark the fire and enough to bring shame.

So yes, I believe this activist. But I know there were others who came on board from different reasons.

[peacetalksforall]

29. You 'know''? As in insider knows?

Israel targeted the ship that the most of the Moslems were on. Is that correct or not correct from your insider knowledge. These people didn't have AK-47's, missiles, other guns, hand grenades, bombs. They did not have all the latest technology - for night vision and everything else these Israelis were carrying.

We have still to learn who gave the order to shoot.

Those aid activists didn't have the usual pile of stones.

The soldiers had the benefit of our $7 million dollar a day gift of aid (U.S. to Israel aid).

It is easy for me to believe that those IDF soldiers treated them with aggression knowing who there were.

If Israeli intelligence knew there was something on those ships that was more than aid, they should have said so long before they chose violence through invasion and death.

There should be an embardo on Israel, but let's wait for the investigations and depositions.

I don't believe anything the current leaders of Israel say. Sorry.

[abubalboola]

31. please focus on the subject - this is how...

Peacetalksforall, instead of building arguments and counter-refuting mine, you seem to pour more and more words regardless of what is said. my argument was that a handful of violent activists did something that should have been criticized also.
Peacetalksforall, I suggest we continue the discussion because we both can learn only if we really try to see things from the other side point of view. I commit to trying this. I hope you too.

I would like to refer to each of your arguments:

1. peacetalksforall: "Israel targeted the ship that the most of the Moslems were on. Is that correct or not correct from your insider knowledge."
abubalboola: No. The ship was not targeted BECAUSE there were Muslims on board.

2. peacetalksforall: "These people didn't have AK-47's, missiles, other guns, hand grenades, bombs. They did not have all the latest technology - for night vision and everything else these Israelis were carrying."
abubalboola: I agree.

3. peacetalksforall: "We have still to learn who gave the order to shoot."
abubalboola: It was the naval army commander. This is no secret. I strongly suggest to ask "When did he give the order, and why". Do you agree that this is a valid and important question?

4. peacetalksforall: "Those aid activists didn't have the usual pile of stones."
abubalboola: I agree there were no stones. However, the videos clearly show clubs, metal sticks, chains, long knives.
Do you reject that claim?
(See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNn2AKbTV4&feature=related )

5. peacetalksforall: "The soldiers had the benefit of our $7 million dollar a day gift of aid (U.S. to Israel aid)."
abubalboola: Sorry, this is not an argument for our current discussion.

6. peacetalksforall: "It is easy for me to believe that those IDF soldiers treated them with aggression knowing who there were."
abubalboola: I disagree that this is why aggression was used by the IDF. I claim that the IDF used aggression only after a handful of soldiers were attacked by an angry mob immediately once they came down from the helicopter (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo )

7. peacetalksforall: "If Israeli intelligence knew there was something on those ships that was more than aid, they should have said so long before they chose violence through invasion and death."
abubalboola: The choice of violence on board of the ship was taken by the handful of violent activists. From that point, the aggression of the IDF soldiers was in self defense.

8. peacetalksforall: "There should be an embardo on Israel, but let's wait for the investigations and depositions."
abubalboola: This is out of the scope of our current discussion. Still, my opinion is that if this is so, then there should also be an embargo on Hamas. But what I hope is that instead, all sides would back off. Note that "All" sides. That includes Hamas, Turkey and the mainstream media.

9. peacetalksforall: "I don't believe anything the current leaders of Israel say. Sorry."
abubalboola: No need to belive them. I am merely pointing to the video which shows clearly a mob clubbing soldiers (who just go on board and did not open fire yet!)

peacetalkforall, please let me know your thoughts.
Abubalboola

[Cherchez la Femme]

39. Keep on defending the indefensible...

You're seeing selected clips far into the fight. Pure propaganda a child could see through. Helicopters fired on the boats long before any soldiers descended, witnesses say; and I believe them way over Israeli propaganda, especially considering all their cameras, etc., were confiscated by Israel. Why? What is Israel afraid of people seeing if their story is true?

But you go on, keep defending the indefensible. Sick.

Do you know Israelis are now calling the aid flotilla terror boats.
Terror boats?!
How STUPID do you think we are for sweet goddess' sake?! :puke:

Oh, those terrible 'activists' --no, "terrorists" :eyes:-- defending themselves from an unprovoked attack in international waters with whatever they could grab (pieces of metal, etc.) against guns, concussion grenades wielded by trained, armed, IAF soldiers abseiling from helicopters themselves armed to the teeth!


Israel constantly self-congratulates itself on it's "intelligence" yet somehow is unable to grasp the fact that aggressors by definition can't be victims!


Sanction, Divest, Boycott.

[abubalboola]

41. hmmm... interesting... lets see...

1. CLF said: "You're seeing selected clips far into the fight.... Helicopters fired on the boats long before any soldiers descended, witnesses say;"
no shooting was done on passengers from helicopters. the wounded and killed were shot with hand-pistols from short distance (according to Turkish examination), which is very likely in the case of self defense from an angry mob.

2 CLF: said: "But you go on, keep defending the indefensible. Sick."
that is probably because there are other different points of view, which do no blame Israel automatically and for everything.

3. CLF said: "Do you know Israelis are now calling the aid flotilla terror boats."
yes, I do. I do not agree with this term. I also don't agree that only peaceful activists were on board. there was a handful of deadly violent passengers.

4. CLF said: "How STUPID do you think we are for sweet goddess' sake?!"
have you read the anti-israeli propaganda stories? now, check that and see how stupid it can get when you do make an automatic blame of israel on everything...

5. CLD said: "that aggressors by definition can't be victims!"
I agree. both Israel and the hamas are stuck in this game. what I don't agree is that israel is the sole aggressor.

[sendero]

42. Israel is not the sole aggressor..

.... but at this point they ARE NO BETTER THAN HAMAS and I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT THEM WITH MY TAX DOLLARS.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cherchez la Femme]

48. Let's make another list, what fun!

1) "Angry mob"? Oh, you've sure got the talking points down. I'd be part of this so-called "angry mob" --and you would too-- defending myself if I were being boarded and attacked by militia in international waters.

2) And you're STILL defending the indefensible.

3) You don't agree with that term? Good. Did I specify you personally did? No. Does your personal denial negate the fact that's how some are parsing this? No.

4) I'm not making any "automatic blame of Israel". Facts are facts, no matter how you try to spin them.

5) Ah, but we're talking here about the attack and slaughter on the flotilla. A specific. The flotilla had peacekeepers and humanitarians from all over the world on board -- not Hamas. If you are inferring that Hamas was on board then you ARE saying that terrorists were on board, refuting #3 above; are you confused on your talking points or just having trouble keeping the story straight?
So, bringing in humanitarian aid is now aggression? :wow: Fully trained, armed & armored soldiers attacking an unarmed (unless you call a metal pipe wrenched from the ship's infrastructure 'armed') humanitarian ship in international waters -- nevermind this 'blockade' is illegal in the first place!

The propaganda isn't working anymore. Israel can't claim victimhood when it is equipped & armed to the teeth --including nuclear-- against, at best, some homemade rockets. Kill ratio's of 100:1 (or X:None) won't cut it in the court of international opinion. Get used to it.

[peacetalksforall]

43. Sorry, I thought you must have had some insider knowledge. I can't

accept the propaganda you chose to adopt.

I admit to not knowing the details, but a person has the right to consider background.

Israel attacked and destroyed and killed part of the country of Gaza.

An Israeli leader said of the Gazans that Israel would put the Gazan people on a 'diet'.

They persuaded Egpyt to close Gaza.

Israel without announcement assumed with arrogance ownership of the Gazan coat.

Highly credentialed multi-national people tried to bring them aid and show solidarity for the needs of the Palestinians in Gaza.

Israel has displayed no regards for human beings and their property.

Some Israelis condemn the action. There are peace activists in Israel who are speaking out against the act.

The entire world wants to know why Israel would target the ship that had the Turkish on board - as well as Al Jazeera people?

I will not participate further until more facts are known. But, I will ask you one question -

Do you believe the aid dactivists should have dropped to their knees in submission? Do you believe they brought the weapons you name with them or were they on the ship? If they brought weapons with them, don't you think that they would select better weapons than items that seem to have come off the ship. If you are on the sea, would you not have knives to cut the fist that you might catch? In other words, where is the logic.

As to pistols - I gave up believing the lies of some of the leaders of Israel when I started learning about the lies of some of the leaders of the U.S. The combination is a disaster to peace. Some in Israel and the U.S. love the profits of war. We have a sick partnership, but some of the people see through it.

[peacetalksforall]

45. I s aid country for Gaza - I meant territory.

[abubalboola]

49. ok, lets change the subject.

peacetalkforall, you write you want to discuss the background, and not the incident. this is ok with me. I also find it more constructive to discuss the overall situation then the incident only.

here is my view:
there is a fundamental difference between Gaza\Hamas and the occupied-territores\Fatah.
I have a lot of respect to Fatah and alot of sympathy to the population in the occupied-territories. on the other hand, I see the Hamas as a manifestation of religious fundamentalism which is the root cause for the suffering of the Gaza population.
the Fatah are a nationalist organization who has moved to diplomatic engagements. as such, they are working for the benefit of their people and there is a chance to progress.
on the other hand, the Hamas is an organization that was elected but nevertheless is self-destructive towards its own people. the outcome of their violent and fundamentalist view has caused not only israel to put a blockade (rightly or wrongly) but also created a huge rift between them and their brothers in the occupied-territories. additionally, you can see the negative way that Jordan and Egypt view the Hamas.
this is in short about differences between Gaza\Hamas and the occupied-territores\Fatah.

now for Israel...
Israel is doing a lot of wrong. no doubt. much of the criticism is justified. I can point to several justified issues but I think that there is enough mentioned already. so with the risk of being called in unpleasant nicknames, I would like to point on what I see wrong with the public opinion.
- there is an automatic tendency to blame israel on everything. I strongly disagree with that.
- there is a tendency to see israel as the sole aggressor. I strongly disagree with that. please do not interpret my words as "israel is not aggressive". Israel is definitely aggressive. my meaning is that it is not the only one.

the situation is pretty much such that both sides can not stop this on their own.
I think that we need "two adults" in this game; one for each. One adult to take care of Israel (e.g., US) and another adult to take care of Hamas (e.g., Egypt and Jordan). Unfortunately, Israel doesn't listen enough to the adult (US); and the other adult (Egypt\Jordan) already gave up on the fundamentalist Hamas opening his mind.
How about that US with local countries e.g., Egypt and Jordan, should get involved clear and loud?

did I widen the scope too much? should I point to Gaza only? ok..
no, I don't think the situation in Gaza is acceptable towards the population. I have no doubt that if MR Mahmud Abbas was the leader in Gaza, things would have looked completely different.
but blaming the situation in Gaza on Israel only? no no no.... that is making israel a scape goat for the follies of the self-internal-rifts-creating Hamas regime. make israel responsible for its share. do not make it accountable for everything.

please let me know your thoughts.

abubalboola

[abubalboola]

50. but specifically on the point I am trying to convey:

the point I am repeatedly trying to pass is "most passengers were peace activists. however, there was a handful of violent tugs on this specific ship. hence, in the other 5 ships nothing similar happened". btw, even one activist having a pistol and shooting, does not make the whole incident less tragic.

as for my expectation from the activists?
I would expect them to:
1. refuse any request or command of the army soldiers
2. passively block entrances so that soldiers can not enter
3. make a human chain around the entrances
4. show every form of non-violent protest
5. stand in the way of soldiers
6. exploit the voyage in the media afterwards and make as much public noise as they can
and more... the rule is non-violence.
because after all, the biggest message should have been by doing the voyage itself. not by violently confronting.

peacetalkforall, please don't tell me that ALL passenger, put ONLY NON-violent resistance. you can clearly see in the videos the opposite.
if you admit that they used violence, even just a handful, we will be able to proceed to a much more constructive discussion (and yes, also about israel's mistakes...)

abubalboola

[panzerfaust]

21. One would have thought that Israel would have learned from Exodus ...

... the ship, not the Biblical Book, when the roles were reversed and the blockading power (Britain) stormed a vessel (Exodus) and ended up sending those onboard (Jews) to GERMANY and put them in (what kind of) camps just after the end of World War Two and the Holocaust.

How does one say "political disaster" in Hebrew?



Power not only corrupts but blinds.

And those of us who were in the Navy remember USS Liberty ...

Though everyone else has forgotten.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Raksha]

35. I thought of the Exodus (the ship, the book, the movie)

right away, but never said anything to anyone. Maybe I'm one of the few people old enough to make that analogy, and you're another one. I was in my early teens then. I remember how proud it made me, back in the more innocent days of Zionism, to finally be a hero--vicariously, of course--instead of being a Holocaust victim--again vicariously. I never imagined then I'd live to see the roles reversed, and that I would actually be ashamed of Israel. It really hurts a lot, but I have to face reality.

[panzerfaust]

53. I do wonder if the current leadership in Israel has any grasp of history

If they do, it is difficult to imagine why they chose to play the role of the (Roman/Persian/British) Empire.

Ships are fragile (speaking as ex-Navy) and there are many ways to stop them. Dropping pumped up commandos on deck in the dark of night is not one of the best ways if one is seeking to avoid bloodshed.

Shalom.

[Karenina]

30. I'm so tired of the "Art of War." The neverending peenie thing...

We are dealing with two traumatized, by now done gone plum fickin' bonkers, populations. I reject the paradigm of "sides" and support ALL of those on site who have the sense G_d gave a billygoat. Their voices are not often heard. PLEASE check out Gideon over at Ha'aretz. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQNX07NyoDc
Just as the USAF has been taken over by batshit fundie loonies, so has the Israeli military been overrun by batshit Brooklyn settlers. The stupid, it BURNS. (Just like that COREXIT. :evilgrin: )

[abubalboola]

32. nice one . but we need "two adults"

karenina, nice clip :->
I agree with what Gideon is saying that "Israel needs an adult to take it out of its addiction".
I find it positive that an important Israel journalist can indeed express himself so and btw, this is an opinion shared by many in Israel.
Unfortunately, there isn't such school of thought in Hamas. Also, there is no chance one in the Hamas could express himself in such way, towards the Hamas.
So other then the need of "an adult" we can also learn from this video about the differences between the democratic and self-thinking Israel, compared to the Hamas fundamentalist regime.

I think that we need "two adults" in this game; one for each. One adult to take care of Israel (e.g., US) and another adult to take care of Hamas (e.g., Egypt and Jordan). Unfortunately, Israel doesn't listen enough to the adult (US); and the other adult (Egypt\Jordan) already gave up on the fundamentalist Hamas opening his mind.

How about that US with local countries e.g., Egypt and Jordan, should get involved clear and loud?

abubalboola

[abubalboola]

33. the moment of opening fire

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177229

there is a video and a transcript which shows the moment of opening fire!
israeli soldiers identify shooting and responding in self defence.

it's true that 600 activists were not armed and peaceful. however, it is impossible to claim that the israeli army "stormed in shooting". there were deadly violent passengers on board!

[EFerrari]

37. That video doesn't show that the Israelis fired on the ship and killed two people

before they boarded. They also used gas and stun grenades. Oh, and it has been found that they sabotaged two vessels that couldn't join the flotilla.

And, a retired Mossad agent has speculated Mossad had one or two agents on the Marmara.

So, who's to say that the infiltrators didn't begin the violence -- which was perfectly justified in any case because it was self-defense on international waters.

This propaganda about "deadly violent" passengers is just that. No Israelis were killed.

[Tripmann]

38. "israeli soldiers identify shooting and responding in self defence."

If you illegally board a ship in international waters, you cannot shoot the people trying to repel you and claim self defense.

[abubalboola]

40. soldiers have the self defense right, when it comes to violent mob

Tripmann said: "If you illegally board a ship in international waters, you cannot shoot the people trying to repel you and claim self defense."

1. searching a ship, which breaks a siege, is legal according to international law.
2. even if it was not legal! (which it is), then are you saying that acting like a violent mob is ok and the other side has no right for self defense when it gets to risk of life???


please don't try to be too innocent here - the passengers knew the soldiers would come (Israel announced it clearly)... the violent activists knew that also... and they went wild like a mob trying to kill the soldiers. Hence, the claim for self-defense stands.

[Tripmann]

44. Wrong

A soldier becomes a civilian in a soldiers uniform once they are in international waters as they no longer have legal juristiction. As such, their boarding without permission constitutes an act of piracy and can legally be repelled.

You cannot legally kill somebody repelling you while you carry out an illegal act.

[peacetalksforall]

46. Make that MERCHANT ships - the law says MERCHANT ships - these

were retired ships contracted for this project.

Fine points ignored or twisted is called propaganda. Or it means not having all the facts first.

[NoodleyAppendage]

56. Jerusalem Post? Now, there's an unbiased news source... n/t

J

[Ichingcarpenter]

34. Turkey and Israel do $3 billion worth of trade with each other

this action by Israel will effect this trade.

[New Dawn]

51. K&R - Turkey should ban all trade with Israel and provide naval escorts for Gaza aid ships.

[proteus_lives]

59. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

:eyes:

[abubalboola]

52. Israeli troops take over Gaza aid ship Rachel Corrie. Peacefully.

see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10245176.stm

the activists on the Rachel Corrie demonstrated the right way to make a protest.
Rachel Corrie was stopped. peacefully. 5 of the other ships were stopped. peacefully.
in these two above cases, any criticism on Israel on stopping those boats, or on the gaza blockade, is indeed legitimate. (should be discussed still, yet legitimate criticism no doubt).

the killings in Marmara is a direct responsibility of two factors:
1. deadly violence of (several dozens) deadly violent passengers (pretending to be peace activists, like most others on this boat)
2. wrong decision making by the israeli's and wrong assessment on who is on board of the ship.

[depakid]

58. errr... Israel acted in violation of international law and bears the sole responsibility

for the consequences.

This line of bull about making relief workers and peace activists out to be some sort of terrorists is falling on deaf ears around the world.