Martin: Irish citizens 'kidnapped' in international waters

[Tripmann]

Source: Breaking news.ie

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has accused Israel of kidnapping Irish citizens in international waters.Micheál Martin is furious after Israel announced it would deport all foreign nationals seized from a convoy of ships carrying aid to Gaza. Israel launched an attack on the flotilla overnight, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens more.Seven Irish passport holders have been taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod from where it is planned to deport them. One has already signed papers agreeing to the move.

But Minister Martin said he has told the Israeli Ambassador Dr Zion Evrony that the Government wants these Irish citizens released immediately. "The Israeli government requires people to sign papers so that they can be deported," Minister Martin said. "But of course these people did not enter Israel illegally.
"They were essentially kidnapped from international waters, taken into Israel.. And now they are being asked to sign a document almost confirming that they entered illegally.



Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/martin-irish-citizens-kidnapped-in-international-waters-459870.html

---

For once I actually agree with this guy. These aid workers were kidnapped through an act of piracy.

[cosmicone]

1. Israel is a rogue nation and needs to be disciplined. n/t

[RC]

4. If only someone would stand up to us, U.S. for our aggressions.

[liquid diamond]

9. WTF? Is that what you really want?

[RC]

18. Of course not.

Why do we have so many military bases around the world? What are we doing in Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia and elsewhere in the first place, let alone still.
Why is our "Defense Budget" more than the rest of the world combined? We make most of our own trouble, then go in and 'Fix it".

[zipplewrath]

102. Well, the answers are a bit complicated

"Why do we have so many military bases around the world? "

That's hard to answer in a simple fashion. But basically our military has been the foundation of our international diplomacy for the better part of 120 years. Many of the countries in which our bases exist WANT them there (well the governments do). And, by the by, militaries from around the world have facilities here, although I'd hesitate to call them "bases".

"Why is our "Defense Budget" more than the rest of the world combined?"

Again, that could be a very large topic. But again, our "military" budget encompases many things that in other countries would be considered civilian expenditures. And we are one of the few nations (just about the only one really anymore) that maintains foreign bases at the invitation of those countries.

I don't particularly defend this arrangement. And we may have some significant reductions coming in our reach and committments in the future. But it is such an inherent part of our government, our economy, and our culture that it would be hard to significantly change it over a short period of time.

[David__77]

25. I do.

That would help facilitate world peace.

[Peregrine Took]

53. Yes, me too.,

[DeadEyeDyck]

83. and to what end?

[liquid diamond]

84. Does that include being attacked?

[David__77]

89. Well I hope that the US reforms its behavior to avoid that.

But that fact is that people around the world don't like being oppressed, occupied, bombed, exploited, and subverted. I'm sure for each child killed in Iraq, for instance, several come forward to avenge that death.

[CBGLuthier]

96. Yes, some of us americans feel that america's foreign policy is a disaster.

If it takes getting our ass kicked (again) then maybe that is what we need. We lament the loss of life and limb but enough is enough. I am sure the Mongol hordes were quite patriotic too.

[Redstate Blueboy]

46. Fuck Iran! Sanction Israel!

How many countries has Iran invaded in the last fifty years???

[defendandprotect]

2. We need to stop Israel as desperately as we need to stop our MIC . . .!!!

[WileEcoyote]

59. Israel is deeply in bed with the MIC

Probably the only part of the Military Industrial Complex with any note of sanity playing through it.

Like it or not? Israel will exist otherwise someone may set the world on fire. There is no bargaining with this issue.

Just look on the bright side: Mossad is a lot wiser than our CIA. CIA killed Kennedy and hired the Bush's. There's no one anywhere near THAT dumb in Mossad.

[defendandprotect]

126. Only know bits about this . . . i.e.,

American and Israeli weapons production is so intertwined that you can barely

tell the difference between them --

and we've stored nuclear weapons in Israel --

PLUS the subsidizing of their warmongering, of course --

Our CIA is right wing trash as far as I know -- they collected right wing money

from all over the world -- including from Nazis -- and used it to finance many

right wingers in Congress -- two I know of . . . Sen. Strom Thurmond and

Rep. Gerry Ford.

Pat Buchanan also got money from them.

Don't know all the specifics of this -- nor all the names of other rw they supported.

Some of that info came out, as I recall it, when Bill Buckley died --

Apologies, if this is a repeat --

try to get the info out as often as possible --

Israel will exist --

but what about Palestine . . . looks like Israel is headed for GENOCIDE there and

that's not a remedy foreign to US government!



:)

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tripmann]

5. Cheers John

We've 1700 people marching on the Israeli embassy here in Dublin as I type.

[Mnemosyne]

11. Stay safe.

Despicable action by Israel. Maybe someone should have helped Vanunu those many years ago... Knowing they have nukes does not create an easy rest some nights.

And a late welcome to DU! :hi:

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DonCoquixote]

29. whoa

It's one thing to detest violence, it is another to say that a country does not deserve to exist.

[aquart]

45. Yet that is the Palestinian position, is it not?

They want Israel destroyed. Anytime Israel does the smallest thing to pay them in their own coin, it gets condemned. I don't ever see condemnation here of what Hamas or Fatah does.

[Chulanowa]

55. Which palestinians?

There are a lot of them, you know. And there are several philosophies found among them.

Oh. You're just broad-brushing every Palestinian into the aegis of Hamas?

Unsurprising.

[aquart]

44. And here it is.

What kind of massacre would you prefer to end the experiment? How do you want them killed?

Who else has the bloody nerve to tell a nation they do not "deserve" to be a nation? Want to see a list of OUR massacres? Ever heard of the Flaming Sword of Islam?

Why do the Israelis go armed? Because people don't think they "deserve" to be a nation.

Bigotry wedded to flaming ignorance. On a so-called "liberal" site.

[Chulanowa]

52. "Who else has the bloody nerve to tell a nation they do not "deserve" to be a nation?"

Well, the Israelis say that to the Palestinians pretty much every day, don't they? Don't the US and Turkey keep saying this to Kurds? China says it to Tibet. And then there are all those funny places like Transdneitria and Punjab and Corsica, where only the locals think they deserve a nation and everyone else in the world tells them they don't... hell, Alan Grayson basically said this to Afghanistan and Iraq yesterday.

Learn the difference between "state" and "population" aquart.

[EFerrari]

74. "Who else has the bloody nerve to tell a nation they do not "deserve" to be a nation?'

Really?

[defendandprotect]

127. Israel's response cannot be GENOCIDE in Palestine . . .

Because people don't think they "deserve" to be a nation.

[BolivarianHero]

63. I've marched for Palestine before, and would do so again, but your words are absurd...

By the standards by which you argue that Israelis don't deserve their own country, I could name examples of brutality throughout the world that could easily prove the same or worse about dozens of nations, the Americans one of the first.

[EFerrari]

6. The Irish have seen all of this before and for hundreds of years.nt

[sabrina 1]

15. Yes, ~ and not all that long ago comparatively

speaking. Europeans in general have a better sense of history and how easy it is for a country to lose its soul when it falls into the hands of ideologues of any kind.

[davidinalameda]

31. if anyone knows anything about terrorism

its the Irish

IRA ring a bell and I don't mean the retirement fund?

[EFerrari]

50. The IRA didn't come out of nowhere. Just as the radicalized Gazan youth

of tomorrow will not have come out of nowhere.

[Swagman]

54. yes..history will repeat and repeat. Cannot someone give the

Israeli government a simple lesson in public relations ?

[defendandprotect]

128. Not this right wing/Fundi/warmongering Israel . . . they buried peace-loving

liberal Israel --

Those people are there somewhere -- just as we anti-war people are here --

but the MIC is in charge in US and Israel!!

[davidinalameda]

62. so terrorism is an acceptable answer

to what you see as occupation?

just wondering which side you would have taken in the Six Days War

[EFerrari]

64. That's an interesting inference.

I don't have to agree with facts for them to be true. Do you?

That's the biggest weakness of the right. They reject facts they don't agree with and that puts them in all kinds of ridiculous positions like denying climate change and Obama's citizenship.

[davidinalameda]

97. so I'm on the right?

yeah that must be it

[Recursion]

65. It's been shown to work many times, yes. NT

[EFerrari]

67. "Terrorists" is what occupiers call insurgents, isn't it? n/t

[davidinalameda]

99. insurgents?

I don't think that Arafat and the rest of the PLO were ever "insurgents"

I don't think the people who flew planes into the WTC were "insurgents"

I don't think the people who bomb abortion clinics are "insurgents"

[DRex]

118. I don't think the people on those boats were insurgents...

of terrorists, or anti-semites, or any of the other horrible accusations that have been hurled at them.

I would take a good long look at what I actually stand for if I found myself defending this indefensible crime.

[davidinalameda]

124. no one said they were

reading comprehension is your friend

[DRex]

125. Maybe I posted in the wrong place...

I was referring more generally to the comments on this board, not to you. Sorry.

You're right, reading comprehension is my friend.

Pithy condescension is my enemy.

[davidinalameda]

98. wow-remind me not to piss you off

[Recursion]

101. Don't take my land and you'll be fine

Show me another proven way to end an occupation.

[davidinalameda]

123. if it was your land to begin with

[greiner3]

115. I fear that no Palestenians will be alive;

For the next generation to become radicalized. Isreal plays by their dusty book. Kill every one of your enemies, even the livestock. I could never understand that one.

[Peregrine Took]

56. In my whole life I've never been more proud of being 100% Irish.

My dad was an Irish patriot who was imprisoned in Mount Joy Jail fighting for Ireland's freedom in the 1920's. He would love the Rachel Corrie!

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[UndertheOcean]

7. +1

[CountAllVotes]

8. good on the Irish

tough to go after a neutral country!!

:dem: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[On the Road]

26. It's Good That It's the Irish

rather than Brits or Americans. They're a historically exploited country too. No way to go attribute it to imperialistic propaganda.

[CountAllVotes]

33. lol ... Cowan is busy scratching his ass

trying to figure out what not to do!
:D



ProtestsDublin protest

Around 1,000 people gathered on O'Connell Street in Dublin to protest at the attack. They then moved on to the Israeli Embassy in Ballsbridge.

Several hundred people have taken part in an anti-Israel demonstration in Belfast this evening.

Among those taking part in the protest were Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams and trade union representatives.

:kick:

[CountAllVotes]

41. with the few rights that the Irish have

I always say more power to us!

Erin go braugh!

:dem: :kick:

[Richd506]

10. Can someone help me out?

Why exactly is Israel doing this???

[xxqqqzme]

14. Because they can

And they expect to get away w/ it.

[Chulanowa]

16. Well, besides the flippant (though correct) response above...

Even if Israel knows that these ships carry nothing but aid, they still cannot allow that aid to get into Gaza. Israel has been engaging in a complete blockout of information coming out of Gaza. Nobody is let in, and certainly no one is let out. The borders are blockaded, and recently Israel has concocted this story of "thousands of tons of medical aid" going to Gaza from Israel.

An international group seeing the state of Gaza currently would blow the lid off what conditions are like in there. it would expose Israel and what israel is doing, and prove lie to the brand-new story of Israel generously supplying Gaza with aid and medicine and food.

In other words, if this flotilla were to land and start distributing, it would become a huge embarassment for Israel, and given how many leaders of the nations involves were keeping an eye on the situation, would have very likely led to substantial condemnation of Israel's "efforts" in Gaza.

So rather than risk that, Israel intercepted the flotilla, shot some people, and is now pretty much depending on the US to bail them out. For Israel, it's a better option than the alternative; the US wouldn't be able to give israel a free pass when it came to conditions in Gaza, but it can do so over their attack on civilians in international waters.

That's why Israel did this.

[Mike K]

32. Well said.

Good summary.

But we can rest assured that the best government liars in Washington and Tel Aviv have their heads together on this one and we can expect some world class bullshit to be flying on the eleven o'clock news tonight.

[donquijoterocket]

75. stenographers

I expect that in the end, as usual, the U.S. legislators Israel owns in complicity with a supposedly liberal-biased press which in reality is nothing more than a stenographer to power will have completely absolved the Israelis and the crews of the vessels fired on and seized will be terrorists of the most heinous sort completely in league with Hamas if not Al Quaeda, and the revolutionary guard of Iran and the mighty wingnut Wurlitzer will be sounding from all pipes.After the incident with the USS liberty I find no credibility in any explanations or rationalizations Israel may offer for this act of piracy.World class BS complete with the finest CGI video that would do Industrial light and Magic proud.Fux noise will of course be yammering at full throat along with Lord Limpball and the rest of the bat-guano crazy wingnut blogosphere.Unfortunately we might also eventually have to put up with some inane pronouncement from Princess Sparkle Caribou the Temptress of the Tundra speaking from the depths of her foreign policy experience.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MindandSoul]

68. Doesn't Gaza sounds more and more like the Jewish gettho under Hitler???

[eridani]

88. It's the world's largest outdoor concentration camp right now n/t

[mdmc]

40. might makes right

No need for any motive..

[joshcryer]

72. Paranoia, fear, and a military state.

It's a nice combination that makes one insane.

[Poll_Blind]

12. Ouch. Well, it's true. n/t

PB

[ZombieHorde]

13. Not surprising. Israel's government is psychotic. nt

[dwilso40641]

17. We as Americans allow

citizens with dual citizenship to serve in our Government. As long as we have the likes of emmanuel and Traitor joe in charge we will not look good.

[femrap]

19. Don't forget Bernanke!

Of course, he's the head of the Fed which isn't really a gov't job. It's a bankster job.

[truedelphi]

28. I am hearing some rumors that Bernanke is offering

Trillions (not billions but Trillions) of newly printed electronic US dollars to help the European nations hold off their coming economic collapse.

Geithner refused to offer California the 20 Billion dollar loan that Schwarzenegger asked him for, and by which californians would basically be getting the money they have spent and should have been reimbursed many times over, but Geithner felt it an unwise thing to do.

Yet our Federal government always has plenty of money to give our friends in the International Banking cartel.

[femrap]

35. So many states

are hurting. Yet we give money to the ECB? So they can go play in their respective stock markets?

[truedelphi]

49. The even sadder truth is, the "play" is not just in the markets, it is how

The various stock market Big Shots are betting against the smaller nations' currency. SO good bye Greece, good bye Spain and Portugal.

It is really galling.

[glitch]

112. Treason. nt

[Frances]

20. My concern is that Israel's actions

are jeopardizing the safety of our soldiers in Iraq & Afghanistan. Does anyone remember which military leader pointed out that Israel's actions harm our soldiers?

[Lena inRI]

30. VP Joe Biden said that. . .

. . .not a military leader.

Vice President Joe Biden, who reportedly told Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, “What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.”

http://www.daily.pk/‘netanyahu-endnagers-our-troops-in-iraq-afghanistan-pakistan’-vp-joe-biden-17203/

Guess the Irish aren't afraid to confront these Israeli fanatics. . .
I R I S H

HAVE

BALLS




THE IRISH HAVE HAD PRACTICE STANDING UP TO BULLY ROGUES.

:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Hardrada]

85. General Petraeus also although the neocon media will make that fact

quickly disappear.

[seg]

21. Israel needs to be reigned in

If Somalians did this then the West would rightfully condemn it and probably send in Seal teams to stop them. What Israel is doing is state sponsored terrorism.

[New Dawn]

22. K&R - Down with Zio-Fascism!

[Douglas Carpenter]

23. kick and recommend

[David__77]

24. I hope all that can refuse to sign these papers of capitulation.

If Israel holds these hundreds, it will greatly exacerbate the crisis. That may be good for the prospects for peace in the longer term. If I were heading Israel, I'd get them out ASAP.

[Arrowhead2k1]

34. The idea that Israel needs to officially deport people it took out of international waters

is absurd beyond belief!

[JNelson6563]

36. Hoo-boy.

This isn't going to go over well. We Irish have a history of taking issue with oppression. this goes beyond the pale.

Julie

[Change Happens]

37. An act of murder and crimes at the hands of the IDF?

[CreatureFeature]

38. This story will be completely or almost completely ignored by our nation's media.

[suffragette]

39. First, the Israeli gov't forges passports to aid in assassination

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/israelis-asked-to-visit-passport-plant-here-before-dubai-killing-2190468.html
Saturday May 22 2010
ISRAELI officials asked to inspect the Dublin plant where security-enhanced passports are made -- just a month before a Middle East assassination by agents using forged Irish documents.

A serious diplomatic incident was looming last night after a top-level report concluded that an Israeli intelligence agency forged the Irish passports used in the murder of a Hamas operative in Dubai in January.

The Department of Foreign Affairs believes that an Israeli state agency provided the eight forged Irish passports used by agents involved in the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

~~
Up to 27 people were suspected of involvement in the murder of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in a Dubai hotel on January 19. Three fraudulent Australian passports, four French, 12 British, one German and eight Irish passports were used in the killing.



Now this.

No surprise "Micheál Martin is furious." These waters will not be smoothed readily.

[HooptieWagon]

43. I'm in favor of a NATO sea and air blockade of Israel...

and seize Israeli Govt assets abroad as compensation for loss of property and life. A civilized world can't stand for rogue piracy.

[MindandSoul]

69. YES! A tight blockade of Israel. . .see how they like it!

[Loudmxr]

47. The Israelis treat the Palestinians like the British treated the Irish.

That is why both sides of my family fled in 1908. So the Irish know.

My Grandmother grew up on the locks of the Shannon... couldn't fish.

My Grandfather grew up in Mayo (God help them) couldn't hunt. He could kill a rabbit with a stone's throw. Never touched rabbit meat once he touched American shores.

The other side had mysterious connections to revolutionary personages that no one ever talked about in detail. But that's the Bradys. :shrug:

[Peregrine Took]

58. Absolutely. My dad fought for Ireland's freedom in the '20's only to be sold

out by De Valera.
My mom was from Northern Ireland with 8 people living in a small cottage with 1 window as they were taxed according to the number of windows per house and rich Prods could afford to have many windows. No wonder they call her area "bandit country"/IRA stronghold.

[RaleighNCDUer]

104. Hell, the Israelis treat the Palestinians like the British treated THEM

prior to their independence. Hijacking aliah ships on the high seas, military control of the civilian population, condemning any and all resistance as 'terrorism' - even if it was just publishing pamphlets or 'trafficking' in medical supplies -- it was ALL done to the Jews by the Brits before '48.

I guess they learned the lessons taught...

[orbitalman]

48. K&R

[skeptical cynic]

51. Israel is a rogue nation

A logical ally for a country with occupying forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[abelenkpe]

57. that should go over well nt

[hourglass1]

60. Kidnapping and murder ...

this via Peter Phillips @ ProjectCensored.org ...
Cynthia McKinney Mourns the Dead of the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza: People of the U.S. and the world must end Israeli impunity now!

I am outraged at Israel's latest criminal act. I mourn with my fellow Free Gaza travelers, the lives that have been lost by Israel's needless, senseless act against unarmed humanitarian activists. But I'm even more outraged that once again, Israel's actions have been aided and abetted by a U.S. political class that has become corrupted beyond belief due to its reliance on Zionist finance and penetration by Zionist zealots for whom no U.S. weapons system is too much for the Israeli war machine, and the silence of the world's onlookers whose hearts have grown cold with indifference.

I recently visited the offices of IHH, the Turkish humanitarian organization that sponsored one of the Freedom Flotilla boats, and that was targeted by the Israelis for its murderous rampage. Reports are still coming in as to the full extent of the senseless Israeli violence. Of course, I expect Israel's apologists in the press and in the United States government to shift into high gear to support Israel's lying machine. Take note of their names. The 12,000 internet squatters/written word grenade throwers, hired by the Israeli Foreign Ministry to defend Israel and attack peace activists online, are already busy spreading their orchestrated disinformation in cyberspace. Be very careful what you read and believe from special interest press and the internet. You could be reading one of Israel's hired hacks. As a news diversion from what Israel has just done, I suspect that we can also expect to see a lot of historical footage of war's atrocities on television: today is Memorial Day in the United States, a day long ago set aside to remember the sacrifices of U.S. war dead.

I encouraged and supported U.S.S. Liberty veteran Joe Meadors' participation in the Freedom Flotilla. Unfortunately, the fate of the U.S.S. Liberty innocents on the high seas, while in international waters, has now been visited upon the participants in the Freedom Flotilla, in large measure because of the Congressional- and Presidential-level cover-up of the 1967 Israeli attack on that U.S. surveillance ship. Combined with the failure of just about every other effort to hold Israel accountable for its crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide, and crimes against the peace. Belgium and Spain changed their domestic laws of universal jurisdiction after Israeli appeals to do so. The entire musical chairs gang of rotating Israeli leadership are war criminals. During my imprisonment in Israel for attempting to take crayons to the children of Gaza, I called Israel a failed state. If Israel is threatened by unarmed, humanitarian activists to the point of massacring them, then Israel is a failed state. Israel is a failed nuclear state.

Obama's most recent granting of an additional $205 million for Israeli "missile defense" is unconscionable, when in the same week, reports revealed for the first time, Israel's offer of nuclear weapons to apartheid South Africa. Just last week, a paper bearing the signature of former Israeli Prime Minister, Shimon Peres, was released by South Africa, revealing that in 1975, Israel could offer South Africa nuclear weapons "in three sizes." South Africa's then-Minister of Defense, P.W. Botha, was South Africa's signatory to the letter. This information would make the entire Obama Administration look sadly farcical as it points an accusing finger at Iran, except that U.S. obeisance to the Israeli bloodthirst is deadly serious. With deadly outcomes.

Earlier this month, Israel was granted admission to the Organization of Economic and Community Development (OECD), a direct affront to ongoing Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) efforts across the world. Once again, Israel has thumbed its nose at the global community--with bloody results--because it can.
I am proud to serve on the Bertrand Russell Tribunal on Palestine. Its next sitting will be in London, where we will examine corporate complicity in Israel's crimes against Palestine. The Tribunal will sit from November 5 - 7. Please put this on your calendar. We all must do what we can, where we are to end wars against the people at home and wars against human rights abroad.

Finally, a friend just sent a message to me saying that the Israelis had lost their minds. Sadly, based on the past, the Israelis could very well conclude that they can do anything-- imprison me for trying to take love to the children of Gaza and kill humanitarian activists trying to do the same--because they know, in the end, they'll get away with it. Instead, I would suggest that we are the ones who have lost our minds, our souls, our spirits, and our human dignity if we allow the Israelis to get away with murder--again--and we do nothing.

I am calling on the people of the United States to change course now.

On this Memorial Day 2010, I am stunned and outraged beyond belief while mourning the dead of the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza.

[Skelly]

61. The flotilla knew what was going to happen...

was prepared for it, and wanted the confrontation. Israel had warned them to NOT try and breach the blockade.

I am not defending the blockade, only stating the obvious about this incident.

From NPR:
"A spokeswoman for the Free Gaza movement, which organized the flotilla, said the group's goal — beyond just bringing supplies to the impoverished territory — was to shatter the blockade.

"What we're trying to do is open a sea lane between Gaza and the rest of the world," Greta Berlin said in Cyprus. "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission. We're trying to say to the world, 'You have no right to imprison a million and a half Palestinians.'"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105384977

And is it a coincidence this occurred just before the start of US (Obama) mediating peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians?

The Free Gaza movement (organizers of the flotilla) knew there would be confrontation. Why did they choose now for it to occur?

[daleo]

66. Spin, spin

Spin.

[joshcryer]

71. I wonder if the "Free Gaza" movement is aware that the Arab League disallows citizenship to *all*...

...Palestinians, *and* their descendants, regardless of place of birth or where they grew up. Jordan is the only state that has allowed Palestinians (in the distant past) to have citizenship. The US gives Jordan billions every year to keep from sending those Palestinians back to "Palestine."

The prison guards aren't just the Israeli's, they're also the Arab's.

[EFerrari]

73. The Arab League did not attack the flotilla.

[Skelly]

78. The floatilla

entered a war zone trying to shatter a blockade, knowing they would be boarded by the Israelis. The Israelis had boarded other ships to make sure they were only carrying aid items. They were told they would be boarded if they tried to enter Gaza. This was a planned event. Days before the attack, it was reported in foreign news agencies (a simple Google search will prove this true).
Right or wrong, their mission was to break the blockade. I think they succeeded.
Propaganda comes from all sides.

[EFerrari]

79. International waters are not a war zone. n/t

[Skelly]

82. So an additional 30 miles

and this entire event would be acceptable? The flotilla's intent was to enter the Gaza port.
I do not think either of us meant "war zone" as a literal geographic location.

[EFerrari]

86. No, I didn't claim it would be acceptable in a different location.

I was pointing out that your rationalization is based on a fallacy.

[Skelly]

92. And in your opinion

what exactly was false from my post?

[Ignis]

116. Please provide support for "entered a war zone."

It looks like you're already back-pedaling from that claim, but who knows? Sometimes people suddenly have a flash of intellectual honesty when confronted with their own falsehoods.

[joshcryer]

90. I was commenting on the prison statement.

[Loudmxr]

81. Because the Palestinians are SEMITES or close. They are like cousins to Jews.

In other words they are trash people in many Arab eyes. Hashimites there that's the word. Semites and Hashimites that is why Jordan likes them because they are Hashimites too.

All the same blood for millennium.

Now lets talk the Ashkenazim.:shrug:

[EFerrari]

70. "She asked for it." nt

[Skelly]

76. It is a war

that has been going on for generations. We (the US) have involved ourselves in its atrocities on many fronts. Demonizing one side over the other will not lead to peace.

[EFerrari]

77. Everything is not everything. Holding someone responsible for their actions

is not demonizing.

[Skelly]

80. I agree

But that is not what most of these posts are calling for.
And there are others involved that need to be accountable.
There is always two sides to every situation. Unfortunately, we rarely learn both. Even when we do, "facts" will be filtered by our own bias and prejudices and we can not always understand the "other".

[EFerrari]

87. Israel killed between 9 and 19 civilians after illegally boarding their vessel.

That's not negotiable.

[Skelly]

93. I do not believe

it is illegal to set up a blockade in international waters during war. Israel is at war with Hamas. The US set up blockade's in international waters around Germany during WWII.
In any event, Israel sees the blockade (and their defense of it) as within their rights to protect their nation.
Whether we agree with Israel or not, we need to acknowledge their perspective (and concerns)if we are to hope for peace.

[RaleighNCDUer]

105. So, it would be perfectly acceptable, in your view, for Hamas to

counter the blockade by blowing up Israeli air liners - they are in a state of war, after all.

[Skelly]

107. In my view

war is unacceptable.
Unless you understand from their eyes, a peaceful solution will not be found.
Truly understanding a position and agreement are not the same.
I think Obama has the ability to do that. My hope was the others at the table would too.

[RaleighNCDUer]

108. So you agree that murdering civilians is not an acceptable course? nt

[Skelly]

111. My personal belief

is that the killing of any life form is never to be taken lightly. Having never been in the position of having to take a human life (civilian or otherwise), I can only presume to know what I would do.
However, I do not think this is the answer you were looking for.
My son and son-in-law are in the military. SIL spent one year in Iraq. If he had been ordered to secure a building and upon entering, saw his life threatened, I would want him to defend himself, even if it was a civilian.

[RaleighNCDUer]

113. But you support the Israeli forces opening fire on the civilians who were UNARMED.

It was piracy on the high seas. Nothing less.

And it has no justification, even by your squishy standards.

[EFerrari]

131. You are comparing Israel's imprisonment of Gaza to

the US fighting Hitler in WW2?

I'm sorry. That's absurd.

[Tripmann]

91. "There is always two sides to every situation"

Yep. One side was a humanitarian aid convoy and the other side was armed men comitting an act of piracy.

[Skelly]

94. Or...

One side was a terrorist organization using innocent supporters and the other side was a sovereign nation protecting itself.

[Tripmann]

95. Would you like to show us your evidence connecting these aid workers to hamas?

Ta

[Skelly]

110. My opinion doesn't matter

What DOES matter are the opinions of those directly involved. The one side says aid workers on humanitarian mission (although spokesperson for Free Gaza said, "We're not trying to be a humanitarian mission." So you already have intent questioned)
The other side believes differently. It is only by understanding each side that we can hope to get even a glimpse of what really happened. And as I said earlier, even then, this can only be done by monitoring our own bias and prejudges.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-i-regret-gaza-flotilla-deaths-but-israeli-troops-had-right-to-self-defense-1.293187

I am sure with a little effort, you can find many more (I did) instances of how Israel saw this going down. Quite different from initial reports.

[Ignis]

114. Well, you got that right, at least.

[Tripmann]

117. You connected these aid workers with hamas

I asked you to explain how.

You can't.

You're desecrating the memory of the innocent people killed by associating them with terrorism.

[Skelly]

120. a few things

Just to be clear, *I* never connected anyone with anything.
I said there were two sides and we needed to understand the perspective of both.
Someone posted the view of 'one side'.
I then posted the view of the other side.
My post contained a link to an article where that opposing view was stated.

I do not know if the people killed were 'innocent' or not because I was not there.
Like you, and everyone else, we only know what we read about the situation.
To discuss the ramifications and our (the US and other countries) response to the situation, we need to understand both sides.

To not do so is to desecrate the memory of ALL people who have died because of war.

[Tripmann]

121. Really

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4405364&mesg_id=4406522

you weren't connecting the aid workers with terrorists?

"Like you, and everyone else, we only know what we read about the situation."

What WE KNOW is that a boat was boarded illegally and in the ensuing fracas to defend their ship from boarding, people were killed by the thugs committing an act of piracy.

[Skelly]

122. No, *I* was not

I WAS showing the perspective of the other side.

We also know this was a planned event by Free Gaza. Israel told them before they even left Cyrus they would be boarded, taken to port, aid distributed and then sent back home. Israel had done with previously with other aid ships.

We also know that THIS flotilla's main agenda was to break the blockade. Delivering aid was the means.

If you take the time, you can find just what their objectives were. They met their objectives.

[RaleighNCDUer]

109. Israel really needs to be protected against bags of concrete and

pallets of medical supplies?

[Ignis]

119. So ALL of these brave volunteers were simply dupes of Hamas?

None of them actually wanted to deliver concrete, wheelchairs, and food to the people living in the open-air prison that is Gaza? Not a single one?

Nope, no agenda to see here, at all! :eyes:

[daleo]

129. That's what I thought of too

Its like saying she asked for it, because nice girls stay away from that part of town.

[RaleighNCDUer]

103. All to keep them from delivering concrete to Gaza.

Gotta be careful with those weapons of mass construction.

[grantcart]

106. With a Prime Minister like Netanyahu Hamas just has to sit back and watch

By the time he is out of office Israel will have one ambassador in residence in country.

[lumpy]

130. Good to hear the Irish.

Thanks