You're a Neanderthal: Genes say yes — a little bit

[David Zephyr]

Source: AP

WASHINGTON – We have met Neanderthal and he is us — at least a little. The most detailed look yet at the Neanderthal genome helps answer one of the most debated questions in anthropology: Did Neanderthals and modern humans mate?

The answer is yes, there is at least some cave man biology in most of us. Between 1 percent and 4 percent of genes in people from Europe and Asia trace back to Neanderthals.

"They live on, a little bit," says Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

Researchers led by Paabo, Richard E. Green of the University of California, Santa Cruz, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School compared the genetic material collected from the bones of three Neanderthals with that from five modern humans.

Their findings, reported in Friday's edition of the journal Science, show a relationship between Neanderthals and modern people outside Africa, Paabo said.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100506/ap_on_sc/us_sci_neanderthal_genes

---

This is actually very big news and turns on its head earlier assumptions that there was no gentic link between us. Fascinating.

[Deep13]

1. Here's further evidence:

If Europeans and Asians are part Neanderthal and Africans are not, doesn't that eman Black people are the master race, being the most genetically pure humans and all.

[Ter]

55. Neanderthals are 100% pure humans as well, just a different sub-species

Just saying. :)

[McCamy Taylor]

2. I have been saying this for years. If you look at the cranio-facial characteristics of

Neanderthal and compare it to Europeans, you can see the resemblence.

Hot damn! We're cavemen!

[roguevalley]

11. they have found transitional skeletal remains of this in caves in

the levant. ISkeletal remains in Israel shows children with features of both. I want to enter a HUGE bitch here: even modern documentaries showing neandertal people lurching around in unkempt hair and raw skins draped over their bodies, their arms and legs exposed in minus blizzardy weather. This is such bullshit. I cannot tell you how angry it makes me to see this portrayal. No one living in weather like this, and I speak from experience here, could survive in it like that.

[AlbertCat]

12. Neanderthal and compare it to Europeans, you can see the resemblence.

Having never seen a real Neanderthal, I wouldn't know. Were did you see one?

I dunno...broad flat noses don't seem too European and Asian to me, but Neanderthals supposedly had them....


Anyway...


ARE YOU KIDDING????? :eyes:

[Bonobo]

39. Completely wrong. They did NOT have flat noses. In fact, Neanderthal noses

were quite pulled out from their face and NOT flat.

[PassingFair]

13. Yes, we've know this for years...

[htuttle]

40. Hey, a little RESPECT please!

[Autonomy]

18. That may be true for a small portion of phenotypical atavisms

iow, those who express the Paleolithic ancestors as opposed to the Neolithic ancestors. Class structures and caste structures may have some root in this distinction, though I admit it would be a stretch to prove.

edit: added qualifier

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

3. I have always felt there was a recessive gene...

...that would show up from time to time, everyone knows of a family where one of the family members just doesn't look anything at all like the rest of the family, feature wise, and it wasn't due to "wild oats". Heavy brows, peculiar body form, etc.

[AlbertCat]

14. one of the family members just doesn't look anything at all like the rest

I'll bet you can tell a Jew just by the shape of their head!


This "they look like a Neanderthal" crap is so embarrassingly stupid, I wish you guys would quit it.


Cheesus! :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[proudohioan]

4. Fascinating! Thank you for the OP....

Funny, My SO and I were having the Neanderthal/Modern Human "did they mate and produce" debate just last weekend! I can't wait for him to get home and show him the article!

Thank you again!

[David Zephyr]

48. I've long argued we mated but could not yield offspring.

This turns everything upside down. But it does make me happy. They were before us and were spread clear to Siberia.

[proudohioan]

54. That was SO's position, too....

or if offspring were in fact produced, they would be sterile, like mules.

What an exciting discovery!

[happyslug]

60. Mules can be fertile

Occasionally a Female Mule produces an offspring. Given the mule itself is a product of a horse (Mare) and a Donkey (sire), we are talking of a mule sired with a Donkey. The product is either a Donkey or another mule. Some genes may be exchanged but unlikely.

Please note I mentioned Female Mules, male mules are generally gelded for the same reason males horses are, it removes the sex drive and makes them easier to work with (i.e. no fighting among the males to be top male. Since gelding is relatively easy to do, it is done on almost all male mules. Female mules are left "intact" for the spraying a female horse or mule is much more difficult and more likely to end up killing the horse or mule AND the benefit of having a calmer animal is NOT a product of the spraying. Thus we have female mules that produce off spring but no stories of male mules producing off spring.

For more see the reports on Hinnys (Mules with Horses as Mothers and Donkeys as fathers, the opposite of true mules):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinny

More on Mules:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule

[proudohioan]

62. Thank you for the info....

I was under the mistaken idea that mules were sterile.

[CreekDog]

5. Some more than others

[aquart]

6. It was always ridiculous to say we didn't mate with Neanderthals.

We do sheep.

[ixion]

8. exactly

History shows we mate with just about anything. Why should Neanderthals be exempt? :evilgrin:

[AlbertCat]

16. We do sheep.

But we don't have fertile offspring with sheep.

THAT was the main question. Could such a coupling produce fertile offspring?

[aquart]

24. Well, polar bears are screwing brown bears because they need a new species quick.

So I'd say yes.

And, of course, one could ask: Goat god Pan, myth or memory?

[Codeine]

67. We're the same species

as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis as far as most scientists are concerned. Assuming this view is accurate then they were a different sub-species, but that is no barrier to inter-breeding.

[Botany]

7. Mike Huckabee's kid .... the missing link?

[OnyxCollie]

21. Ouch!

Is that his mug shot from when he hanged the dog?

Dad cooks squirrels in a popcorn maker; kid looks and acts like a barbarian. You might be on to something!

[McCamy Taylor]

9. Here is another prediction. They will eventually decide that 100% Neanderthal went extinct because

of intermittent long winters like the one that struck the world in 70,000 BC when Mount Toba erupted, sending the world into a 30 year winter. This is because Neaderthal did not eat fish. When the sun did not shine for a few years, their children would not have been able to get the necessary Vit. D for bone growth and so they would have developed ricketts. Also, there would have been less prey to hunt (Neanderthal were meat eaters and with the massive vegetation kill, the earth would not have been able to support as many large animals). However, people who lived beside hot springs would have had 1) geothermal energy to help them survive the cold 2) plenty of food since the hot springs could nourish and support algae type vegetable matter, food and beetles in the absence of solar energy. Fish are a good source of Vit D. Modern cro-magnon have been fish eaters for a very, very long time.


Note that they have found signs of continuous human occupation before and after Mount Toba in two regions of the world, one in Africa in Uganda (where hot springs are present) and the other in a part of India where hot springs are also present.

I suspect that cro-magnon won out in the end, because they are so adaptable. However, there are certain Neanderthal characteristics that would have been beneficial in Europe and extreme latitudes. Heavier bones help mountain dwellers. And the larger noses/airways would have made it easier to breathe inside smoke filled caves. Since people with these Neanderthal characteristics had a slight advantage in a few niches, some of their genes would have been preserved.

Just a theory, but I am almost certain that I am right.

[AlbertCat]

17. This is because Neaderthal did not eat fish.

And you know this.... how?

I assure you, those that lived near water probably ate fish.

And when did all Neanderthals start doing the exact same things everywhere they lived?


I am almost certain that you are confused.

[grantcart]

41. Isn't there a scholarly consensus that Neanderthal lost the competiton for

control of territory because their heavier skeleton made them much slower and they had less language development for coordinated attack?

[Codeine]

64. What makes you think they didn't eat fish?

They would have eaten whatever they could get.

[fascisthunter]

10. that explains FreeRepubiks

[Autonomy]

15. This makes white people the "older" race

at least in part, contrary to contemporary wisdom. We've heard for quite a while that Africa has more genetic diversity because of the length of time in which people have lived there. This finding will change that a fair bit. It seems likely that there was some sort of genetic bottleneck 'after' the interbreeding with Neanderthal that accounts for 'some' of the decreased diversity in Europeans. Just a guess.

[AlbertCat]

19. This makes white people the "older" race

The complete stupidity on this subject displayed here is mind boggling.

(Maybe it's the inferior Neanderthal part of your brain causing it!)



(BTW... all white people, like blacks and asians, are Homo Sapiens, not Neanderthals)

[Autonomy]

47. Neanderthals were Homo Sapiens, too

It's non-controversial that African peoples are an 'older' race because of the genetic diversity in Africa. There is 'some' constructed nature in that statement, but it's also insightful; it's one of the main facts used to come up with the "Out of Africa" theory. Homo Sapien Neanderthalensis is MUCH older than Homo Sapiens Sapiens (both are Homo Sapiens, btw), so any population with Neanderthal lineage would be 'partially' older than any population without.

Also, it's racist and unsupported ignorance to assume that Neanderthals are "inferior" (we are the same species, as evidenced by the interbreeding). The fact that Neanderthals are extinct does not excuse bigotry. They surely had a 'differential' set of skills and talents than modern humans.

I'm guessing you don't really know much about the subject, and your post is uncomfortable overreaction.

[Xipe Totec]

20. Too easy nt

[dipsydoodle]

22. Posted earlier in the day

in the Science Forum - where it belongs.

[Ian David]

23. So much for the "racial purity" or the "white race." They're the ones who fucked the Neanderthals.nt

[daleo]

26. People will boast about their "hybrid vigor"

If they are so inclined. These categorizations are infinitely elastic. Racists can make any set of facts fit their preconceptions.

[Ian David]

28. You're right. I forgot that one should never underestimate the mental gymnastics of racists.

I forgot the way the Nazis had to invent a whole new Atlantis mythos to make their racist ideas "work."

[1monster]

35. You all are laboring under a misapprehension. "White" people are "white" because of a

genetic mutation. We all descend from "brown" people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/15/AR2005121501728.html

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, December 16, 2005

Scientists said yesterday that they have discovered a tiny genetic mutation that largely explains the first appearance of white skin in humans tens of thousands of years ago, a finding that helps solve one of biology's most enduring mysteries and illuminates one of humanity's greatest sources of strife.

The work suggests that the skin-whitening mutation occurred by chance in a single individual after the first human exodus from Africa, when all people were brown-skinned. That person's offspring apparently thrived as humans moved northward into what is now Europe, helping to give rise to the lightest of the world's races.

Leaders of the study, at Penn State University, warned against interpreting the finding as a discovery of "the race gene." Race is a vaguely defined biological, social and political concept, they noted, and skin color is only part of what race is -- and is not.

In fact, several scientists said, the new work shows just how small a biological difference is reflected by skin color. The newly found mutation involves a change of just one letter of DNA code out of the 3.1 billion letters in the human genome -- the complete instructions for making a human being.

http://boingboing.net/2005/12/16/dna-mutation-account.html etc., etc., etc.,

[Ian David]

36. But were Europeans "white" 20,000 years ago?

[1monster]

38. I don't understand your question. The article said the mutation happened TENS OF THOUSANDS of

years ago, so I guess it is possible that 20,000 years ago, those living in Europe were predominately "white."

[Ian David]

44. Got it. I'm slow tonight. Thanks. n/t

[Psephos]

49. You've got that rather backwards.

Modern Caucasians originally hail from Africa. Dark skin pigmentation was lost as African humans migrated to more northerly latitudes about 60,000 years ago. Pale-skinned Homo sapiens neanderthalus were already there as the Africans encroached into the northlands to establish the "European races."

"White race" is a gallimaufry term at best.

I put "human race" on my Census form and I look forward to the day when that realization becomes universal.

[abelenkpe]

25. What?

I thought the earth was only 5000 years old, evolution was a hoax and humans and dinos wandered around together in harmony. It's in a museum and everything.....


:evilgrin:

[No Elephants]

27. Clan of the Cave Bear, published in 1980, describes mating of a

Neanderthal male and a "homo" sapiens female. It was a book of fiction.

Still.....

[daleo]

30. I remember that book

It was interesting.

[Codeine]

68. To be fair,

those books never missed an opportunity to throw in as many sex scenes as humanly possible, so it was inevitable that they'd toss in a "flathead" scene. :evilgrin:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. The Neanderthals lived in precisely the same area where

such features as blue eyes and light-colored skin are found.

[nsd]

31. Neandertal fossils have been found not only in Europe but in western Asia.

In fact, it's thought that they ranged as far east as Iran/Afghanistan. Also, in the paper, the authors found that individuals from China and Papua New Guinea were as closely related to Neandertals as Europeans.

So the link to light-colored skin is unlikely.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. But Iran and Afghanistan do have people with light skin and blue eyes.

:eyes:

[nsd]

34. True, but Papua New Guinea does not.

The authors found the Papuan and Chinese individuals were as closely related to Neandertal as the French individual was. They speculate that mixing happened in the Middle East, before the ancestors of modern non-Africans spread throughout Eurasia (50,000 to 100,000 years ago).

Present-day differences in skin color are generally thought to have evolved much more recently -- long after this period.

ETA: More specifically, skin lightening is thought to have occurred as a consequence of living in the cooler climates of Eurasia, not because that's how people looked when they set off for Europe and northeast Asia.

[Codeine]

65. That almost certainly has more to do with

Greek/Macedonian settlements and governance in those areas conquered by Alexander than with any imagined Neanderthal connection.

A thumbnail overview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization

[depakid]

33. I've long thought some lived on in Milford Wolpoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milford_H._Wolpoff

[Kablooie]

37. Impossible! Neanderthals lived 30,000 years ago. That's 24,000 years before God made the world.

So there's no way humans could have interbred with them.

[bleever]

42. I'm no scientist,

but I have always suspected that the possibility of zero interbreeding was quite remote.

[proteus_lives]

61. "And now he's a lawyer...."

I loved that skit.

RIP Mr. Hartman.

[AlphaCentauri]

43. Back then, did they have a rent a Neanderthal website? eom

[NeoGreen]

45. How many chromosomes did the Neanderthals have?

Isn't there a difference in the number of chromosomes between humans and the Great Apes (Chimps, Bonobo, Gorillas and Orangutans)? I think we have one fewer. How many did the Neanderthals have?

Just curious, I'm off to google to see if I can find out.

[Jade Fox]

46. But how did ALL the genes end up in Joe the Plumber?

[Psephos]

50. Rosanna Arquette is a reasonable example of how Neanderthals actually looked.

She more closely resembles the Neanderthal phenotype than the ridiculous Geico characters or the ridiculous pop culture stereotype that everyone repeats.

[Bonobo]

52. Quite right.

Pulled out face. Like this:

[New Dawn]

51. Incredible results. Even 1% would be far higher than probably most researchers would have guessed.

[E-Z-B]

53. Exactly as our ancestors in Battlestar Galactica wanted.

[Coco2]

56. That makes Africans the only 'humans' and all others hybrids!

Talk about your irony. Centuries of being classed as sub-human only to find out you are the ONLY humans. LOL Also that means that either god was Black or he was a hybrid, afterall according to the book man was made in his image. NEWS HEADLINE: KKK heads explode and bodies spin in graves! Film at 11

[LuckyTheDog]

57. TEA PARTIES EXPLAINED! (nt)

[LuckyTheDog]

58. Having sex with modern human women...

... it's SO EASY A CAVEMAN CAN DO IT!


:rofl:

[htuttle]

69. Dammit!

I'm out of here...

[happyslug]

59. Duplicate Subject this one 2:28 pm from May 6, 2010

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8285018

[IndianaGreen]

63. Only white and Asian peoples are Neanderthal

People from Africa are pure homo sapiens!

:P

[Codeine]

66. Neanderthal was homo sapiens too.

Homo sapiens neanderthalensis

[New Dawn]

70. That is disputed.

In any case, Neanderthals and humans did have similar levels of intelligence, technology, and culture when they coexisted. That is the most important thing to keep in mind.