Kerry hedges on 1971 KC meeting

[tobius]

Posted on Fri, Mar. 19, 2004

BY SCOTT CANON
Knight Ridder Newspapers

KANSAS CITY - (KRT) - Confronted with 32-year-old FBI records, Sen. John Kerry's campaign all but conceded he attended a 1971 Kansas City meeting where a fellow anti-war veteran called for political assassinations. Those active in Vietnam Veterans Against the War at the time stress that the suggestion for such a violent approach was angrily rejected. They say their memories do not include Kerry taking part in the radical discussion.

A statement Thursday by Kerry's camp said the Massachusetts Democrat did not recall the meeting, although FBI surveillance material and the group's archives clearly show that Kerry resigned from his national coordinator post at that November 1971 meeting. http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/8232015.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

In interviews last week, the senator's campaign insisted that the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee clearly remembered bolting from the group months earlier. ... <snip>

"If there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war."

Kerry's anti-war activities launched his political career but also have been used by opponents to portray him as a radical. One conservative tabloid has described the Kansas City meeting as a "dark plot."

more at link

[lazarus]

1. Well, then

How dare he actually be present where discussions were being held?

He should have been off getting drunk or stoned instead, like a real leader. :eyes:

[PartyPooper]

2. Why don't they go after Bu$h like this?

After all, Junior is the villain we're all dealing with!

:argh:

[rumguy]

3. the suggestion was angrily opposed

even if he was there, who cares? I'm sure he was one of the members who was shocked and outraged at the suggestion - some loon speaks up at a meeting and they're trying to pin it on Kerrry - what a joke.

[tobius]

9. the questions will be based on his statements indicating he wasn't there.

he should have just said that he attended but disagreed.-

"Responding to a request by The Kansas City Star that staffers question the candidate about the meeting, Kerry passed word March 12 that he "never, ever" attended a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War after a heated and public argument with the group's executive secretary in St. Louis in June 1971."

[rumguy]

12. I hear you - I hope this gets clarified sooner, rather than later....nt

[formernaderite]

57. Is this now true....what happend to the resignation letter??....

...Why,is there always so much muck...The only issue is "how" credible the threats being made were. If they were serious enough for Kerry to resign over, then there will be fodder...because he didn't report the threats....when it rains it pours.

[dax]

72. He might not remember if he heard about it or was there-

Bush cannot remember a single person who saw him do his guard duty in alabama at the same period of time-should we start calling him a liar on that? oh yeah -we do! but seriously-31 years is a long time ago and if he did remember-he erred but it isnt a fatal error-they were manipulating the facts like they did on CLinton-to entrap him just as they did in '71. He can stand up to it.

[rwenos]

14. See the Enemy Within

Don't you see what's happening? This is Joe McCarthy all over. Kerry might have gotten his ass kicked for fighting against the person who talked up assassinations, but it's being reported like "guilt through association."

"I have in my hands here the affidavits of 137 State Department employees . . . ."

I detect the hand of Iago Rove. Smells like him, don't it?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Got a link for that?

[RainBoy]

54. Sure do..

Here's the link:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37577

Also was on Newsmax and the Sun

I heard the actual reporter who broke this story for the Sun on some afternoon radio talk show discussing this.

[OKNancy]

61. Worldnetdaily

and newsmax.....bwhahaha - rightwing rags. I think you need to find better reading material. No wonder all your posts sound like...you know what.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Got a link for that?

[tobius]

49. nothing to show he has been hired, but was in orlando for "interview"-

Another source is an October 20,1992, oral history interview of Scott Camil on file at the University of Florida Oral History Archive. In it,Mr.Camil speaks of his plan for an alternative to Mr. Kerry's idea of symbolically throwing veterans' medals over the fence onto the steps of the Capitol during the Dewey Canyon III demonstration in Washington in April of 1971.
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12571

"My plan was that, on the last day we would go into the offices we would schedule the most hardcore hawks for last ­ and we would shoot them all," Mr. Camil told the Oral History interviewer. "I was serious."
In a phone interview with the Sun this week, Mr. Camil did not dispute either the account in the Nicosia book or in the oral history. He said he plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in Mr. Kerry's presidential campaign. Campaign aides to Mr. Kerry invited Mr.Camil to a meeting for the senator in Orlando last week, but they did not meet directly.
Mr. Camil was known to colleagues in the anti-war movement as "Scott the Assassin." Mr. Camil told The New York Sun he got the name in Vietnam for "sneaking down to the Vietnamese villages at night and killing people."
--------------------------------------------------
Camil, never prosecuted for the plot, plans to accept an offer by the Florida Kerry organization to become active in the presidential campaign, according to the report. Camil's plot, involving eight to 10 Marines, targeted the Southern senatorial leadership including John Stennis, Strom Thurmond and John Tower http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37577

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. So two right wing rags are promoting this..OK

[tobius]

63. if the interview w/ Camil it will go mainstream.

ignore, ignore- this will go away. cover your eyes. </sarcasm>

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Not ignoring I read them. I think it is interesting that you would use

two notoriously right wing smear rags to support your contention.

[tobius]

65. the sun interviewed him. take the source and make your own judgment.

people seem to like to demand links, and then denounce the source, thereby dismissing any likelihood that there may be a germ of truth to a story. the stories linked to were from the 14th or 15th and were googled up for a request for someone elses thinking that the stories may get tied together.
people yesterday were dismissing the idea that kerry called a secret service agent a son of a **** , then the next step was "who wouldn't swear out loud when they get run over? why would the press assume that he meant the agent? damn media manipulators!" until the NYT published the quote.

[dax]

71. That "loon" was probably a provacateur paid by Cointelpro...

That's how they have all the "intel on who was there-one or more of their guys was there. I was an organizer at that time and every organization I worked within always had a wierd person who would kind of show up with great credentials you couldn't check out and as you worked with them things would start to unravel but they would make suggestions like that and try to convince people and then ttry and divide the group when anyone challenged them and or tried to kick them out and sometimes they were really smooth, sometimes they were just rough guys with prison records who probably got let out to do what they were doing. In any case, Kerry was not swayed by the provacateur or freak, whoever it was which goes to show he had good judgement. GREAT FIND!!!

[rooboy]

4. So he was in the same room as someone who said something...

over thirty years ago. Well, that just about writes Kerry off as a candidate, doesn't it?

:eyes: :eyes:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

5. And of course the FBI files don't manage to show that the

person making the crazy plans was, in fact, an FBI undercover agent, placed there just for this purpose.

WHY do we listen to anything the FBI has to say about the war?

[IndianaGreen]

6. My own experience from that period of time is that...

the people advocating violence of any sort were usually police or federal informants acting as provocateurs.

The same thing is happening today, again!

:think:

[Merlin]

7. FBI infiltrator tried to get my VVAW group to attack Phila shipyard.

I organized a chapter of the Vietnam Vets Against the War at the Wharton School, U. of PA. There were 23 of us, all former officers who had served in Nam, many like me in combat. Our mission, in my view, was to try to communicate to the WWII vets that Vietnam was different from their war, that it was a no-win situation and that it was more patriotic to cut bait than to continue a stalemate.

One of our members, first name Winston (don't remember his last name), presented himself as a married grad student. He and his wife held a party and invited us all on a Sunday afternoon. I remember that his "apartment" was very rich, but seemed more like an office. It certainly didn't feel like a student's place.

After an hour or so, he invited all the guys into his bedroom, closed and locked the door. There were about 15 of us. He unfurled a huge diagram and laid it on the bed and said it was a diagram of the Philadelphia Navy Base. He started talking about how we could get in through this entryway, and there were vulnerabilities here, etc. I finally asked him what the hell he was proposing. He said we had to go in and "attack" the base. To a man, we told him he was nuts and walked out of the room.

After a few years I came to realize there is absolutely no question the guy was FBI. He was an instigator. And a spy. It dawned on me after reading how all of us in Phila were being watched then in the documentation finally released about Nixon's Operation Cointellpro.

[Nevernose]

11. Cointelpro was my first thought, too

Wasn't this SOP for the FBI and CIA during the Nixon years?

[Merlin]

26. Absolutely. But back then, most protestors didn't realize it.

It was a tragic aspect of the peace movement--one that prolonged the war an extra couple of years, imo--that we allowed, for example, participants in peace marches carrying signs extolling the virtues of Ho Chi Minh. I know damn well those people were being paid by the Nixonites. But the peace movement, in the spirit of tolerance, allowed them to participate. Their signs were, of course, the ones that showed up on the evening news that night and pictured on the front pages the next morning.

[rumguy]

45. Who is that in the Clinton pic? nt

[Bridget Burke]

51. Kinky Friedman & Will Smith

Kinky's announced he's running for Governor of Texas, by the way.

[baby_bear]

17. Merlin, you should write this up at least in a LTTE

Unless people actually recall the dirty tricks from the Nixon era, they may well swallow this garbage about Kerry as the truth. Those such as yourself who experienced the Cointelpro abuse - the abuse of the Constitution - need to make your experience known to the public. I suggest you write to editors of major newspapers that print the "story" about Kerry.

This time we all have to do everything we can in our own individual ways to to get people's eyes to open up.

You have something important that the people should know about.

It might wake up a few...

Thanks for sharing it here.

s_m

[Merlin]

25. You're right. If this turns out to have legs, I will do that.

Thanks for the suggestion, s_m.

[baby_bear]

55. Let us know if you get published, Merlin

I love to see DUers get their letters in print.

s_m

[AngryAmish]

37. Have you ever tried to do a FOIA on yourself?

I'm sure you have a nice FBI file. If I were you I would be interested in finding out what they they were saying about me.

[Merlin]

39. How do you do it?

I'd be interested.

[R Hickey]

43. I got my file from the FBI, about 20 years ago

I obtained, from some lawyer, a form letter which I used to request my file from the FBI, and sent other letters requesting my file from the DEA, Customs, and a couple of other agencies.

I had been busted for pot around 1970, and ten years later, wanted to see what my record looked like. A month or so after I sent in the requests, I got about five photocopied pages from the FBI and about twenty-five pages from Customs.

[AngryAmish]

46. I am not sure

But since you are obviously computer literate, look at the FBI homepage and do a search for "Freedom of Information Requests" or something like that.

Found a link http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/index.html
That my point you in the right direction.
Hey, if you find anything cool or interesting, let me know.

[Merlin]

70. Thanks Amish.

As a Lancastrian, I feel we are almost bretheren!

[aquart]

8. "Dark plot"??? Okay, so who'd they kill?

Please. Every group has people who think the solution is murder. I've even heard it here. Some groups do decide to go for it. Most don't.

Wonder what they say over cocktails at Ann Coulter's.

[justgamma]

10. Rather ironic

to read that at least 6 people remember him at that one meeting and there still is not 1 person that remembers serving with Shrub.

[Fovea]

13. Has Bush ever met Ann Coulter?

And if so, what is the difference?

[tobius]

15. the difference may be that he may not deny it.

my feelings are that kerry has had a long, hard battle for nomination and should be tired. But, bushco is coming on strong right now 24/7 and there is concern that kerrys campaign may be hampered by fatigue and money issues. as said above the issue is not so much "was he there?", but why did he say he wasn't?

[Voltaire99]

16. What's astonishing is how...

...regrettably far Kerry has traveled from his brighter days in the 1970s as a critic of Vietnam policy. Today, anxious to mold himself into a candidate palatable to NASCAR America, he can be heard stenuously rejecting any moral condemnation of the US slaughter of millions of Asians.

And just this week, there is his wrongheaded response urging Zapatero of Spain not to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq.

This context is important because it points up how laughable it is to tar Kerry as any kind of radical today. In foreign policy, he's much closer to Bush than to Zapatero. And more's the pity--for Iraq, for America, for the world.

[IndianaGreen]

44. Have you heard the expression "resting on past laurels"?

The Kerry that opposed the Vietnam war would not have supported the Iraq war and its ongoing occupation.

I miss the old SDS.

[dkf]

18. OK people. Am I the only one who thinks this is *not good*?

n/t

[NNN0LHI]

19. If Kerry had broke any law Nixon & Hoover would have had him locked up

Or even had him killed like they did with the Black Panthers using the police as hit men. Thats the way I remember things being handled in those days anyway. And from past experience the people attending these meetings who suggest breaking the law are usually the police informers themselves.

Don

[tobius]

20. no. but it is kinda weird that the issue isn't being

discussed, people are remembering people they met back in the day who "probably" were FBI. ??? or saying it's no big deal if he was there, this is one more small piece of a larger jigsaw puzzle being put together to define kerry as both a waffler and/or liberal/radical. hedging gives legs. saying that you weren't there if you were sounds like it's something you want to hide.

[NNN0LHI]

21. Hedging is the word the the reporter uses for spin. And your repeating it

Ask me what happened on a certain day over 30 years ago and you and the reporter may suggest that I am hedging, when in fact the long period of time that has passed may have caused me to not be unsure of certain dates and places. But I suppose those who think that they have a photographic memory do not ever have such problems?

Don

[tobius]

23. he didn't hedge originally (probably should have)

" In interviews last week, the senator's campaign insisted that the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee clearly remembered bolting from the group months earlier.
Responding to a request by The Kansas City Star that staffers question the candidate about the meeting, Kerry passed word March 12 that he "never, ever" attended a meeting of Vietnam Veterans Against the War after a heated and public argument with the group's executive secretary in St. Louis in June 1971. "
----------------------------------------
then the FBI reports-----

" In a prepared statement late Thursday night, however, campaign spokesman David Wade, traveling with the candidate in Idaho, said: "John Kerry had no personal recollection of this meeting 33 years ago. John Kerry does recall the disagreements with elements of VVAW leadership...that led to his resignation.

"IF there are valid FBI surveillance reports from credible sources that place some of those disagreements in Kansas City, we accept that historical footnote in the account of his work to end the difficult and divisive war." "

that's hedging.

"hedge n.
-An intentionally noncommittal or ambiguous statement.
- A word or phrase, such as possibly or I think, that mitigates or weakens the certainty of a statement. " (like if)

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

[NNN0LHI]

27. That is what I said

You and the reporter call not having a photographic memory of what happened over 30 years ago hedging. I call it being incorrect about something he thought was correct. This was not something that happened yesterday, or last week. Or even last year. It was over three decades ago. Here we are right back where we started again. You want to take the writers spin on this story as fact for some reason, and I would prefer to give some what of the benefit of the doubt to Kerry of what he remembers happening 30 years ago. Ever watch Fox news much? They spin real good too. You may even become a loyal Fox viewer if thats the kind of reporting you seem to enjoy?

Don

[tobius]

28. never, ever is pretty clear. nt

[NNN0LHI]

29. Over 30 years ago. What is the point you are tying to make here?

Are you actually trying to say something here or are you just obtuse? I am beginning to think it may be the latter.

Don

[tobius]

30. I am not fat!

ok, here's the point- everyone knows and is willing to give someone a break about memory for events 30 yrs ago and obviously kerry and his campaign know this. So hidden deep down in this story is the question -why? Why be so clear and so sure that you did not attend this specific meeting? answer- kerry knew that the bush strategy would be to imply that because he was part of this group originally and there is common knowledge of what happened at this specific meeting, kerry wanted to be placed anywhere but at the meeting. why?- kerry is very intelligent and did not want to get into "nuance" about how he disagreed vehemently with the views espoused that day but still was part of the anti-war movement, because it would be one more longish explanation on an issue that he didn't need longish explanations on anymore. however, because obviously any candidate for the highest office in the land has his plate full to overflowing, he didn't consider that there may be written government documentation that he would , to say the least, have a difficult time refuting. so, here we go again down the same path that he seems to create - a story that should not mean anything growing stubby little feet to distract him from going on offense. there is very little precious time to be on defense and the defense needs to shut things down, not reinforce growing perceptions.

[playahata1]

34. The word is OBESE.

OBESE means fat. Obtuse means dense, stupid.

[tobius]

47. thank you. whew, thought those love handle thingy's were showing. nt

[UpInArms]

31. you know, this may sound silly

but a meeting 33 years ago that he remembers bolting from in St. Louis may actually have been the meeting in KC.

I have been a lot a places 33 years ago and they were in the same state -

which town was that???

Was it Midland or Odessa?

Was it Omaha or Lincoln?

Was it Sioux Falls or Sioux City?

on edit- adding from the article:

In a brief interview, Wade said last week's denial stemmed from Kerry's failure to remember the Kansas City meeting and the campaign's reliance on Home to War and two other books that all suggest he quit before

and

After new evidence emerged this week, however, the campaign spokesman said Kerry simply mistook his recollection of the Kansas City meeting for the one in St. Louis in June 1971 — when records show Kerry was re-elected to the organization's executive committee despite growing resentment toward his celebrity and his push for moderation.

and why in the hell does everyone just assume that FBI surveillance under the only President in the history of the US to resign in disgrace -- with the most corrupt administration prior to the following Republican administrations -

WHY is this not being the main subject of this article???

Off I go to write the editor of the KC Star.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. What do you remember clearly of any specific event 30 years ago?...

...Or are you even that old?

Sounds to me like you're trying real hard to add strength to this rather weak attempt to smear Kerry.

[tobius]

66. don't remember enough to make statements of such certainty, such as

Never, Ever!

[FlemingsGhost]

22. Relax... I think Kerry's camp is ambushing them again.

Does the Bush camp really want to reminisce 1971?

Unlike AWOL, not only can Kerry provide proof of his whereabouts, he can produce witnesses.

They'll all be military veterans.

[Merlin]

24. DON'T RELAX. This is the critical period in which Kerry is being defined.

He can either do it himself, or the Bushies will do it for him.

Am I the only one worried that there doesn't seem to be any effort coming from the Kerry campaign to challenge the Bush lies?

[formernaderite]

58. Only if he resigned because there was a credible threat made...

...that's the only issue that could become problematic. I'm assuming he never reported the threats to anyone.

[trogdor]

32. My response (if I were John Kerry)

So? Lots of people were against the Vietnam War. Lots of people expressed this sentiment in public. Some people did whatever they could to avoid fighting there. I didn't. My opponent did. Of course, I wouldn't be so quick to judge my opponent if it weren't for his eagerness to send our sons and daughters to do something he refused to do. You see, his attitude is, fighting for one's country is for the poor wretched people who couldn't get deferrments or cushy billets in some out-of-the-way National Guard unit commanded by friends of the family. There is a huge difference here, and all of you should realize that before jumping to conclusions about my post-Vietnam activities.

George W. Bush promised to be a uniter, not a divider, but I guess that promise was worth about the same as all of the other promises he broke during his term in office. This is the proof.

[Dr Fate]

52. Working Kerry lurkers- read this!!!

n/t

[nicecakes]

33. Meetings discussing political assassinations?

Let's hope JFK did not attend these meetings. Any discussions of or for political assassinations can only reflect badly on those that attended.

[UpInArms]

35. don't you know anything about CoIntelPro?

they planted FBI agents inside organizations to discredit and promote violence -

just like what they do today

google "cointelpro" please

[suegeo]

36. Ari Fleischer admitted he was for assassinations...

And Ari is/was the spokesperson for the Bush junta at the time.

When the junta was marketing the war to us, Ari said something along the lines of "the Iraqi people could solve this problem with a single bullet."

Also, didn't Shrub himself advocate the "kill 'em" strategy in his last state of the union? I recall our glorious leader said it didn't make sense to capture suspected terrorists, charge them and give them a trial. No, in his "wisdom" our glorious leader said the better approach would be just to lash out at suspects, bomb them, shoot them, whatever. Just kill them, and our glorious leader would be the judge jury and executioner. I seem to recall Adolf Hitler did something similar.

[grasswire]

48. this is a FREEPER generated story

The freepers have been researching and pushing this story in their old pattern of collusion with newsmax, FOX, and the echo chamber they used so well during the Clinton years. Push, push, push, and they finally break it through to mainstream reporting.

I suggest that DU-ers confirm and validate every tidbit of this information and not accept any particle of it as valid otherwise. The freepers have been working on it for weeks now.

[west hollywood dem]

67. What a piece of crap.

This story has no legs.

The only significant fact about this bull shit story is that bush is desperate and is resorting to McCarthy like tactics.

Let's delve into Cheney's two dui arrests and Shrub's dui arrest.

Let's also talk about the fact that Shrub flew the entire Bin Ladin family on a military aircraft the night of 9-11.

This is utter crap.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fovea]

59. The issue is meaningless, in comparison to Bush's

Awol-- The Enron/Energy policy meetings -- l'affaire Plame -- Iraq IntelGate -- the stonewalling of 911 -- Kathleen Harris/JebCo...
I mean, Really!

[pfitz59]

60. Rove smear machine.....

$100 million buys a lot of mud. Kerry's camp should question why the FBI was even investigating the political activities of its citizens? Shove this back at Bush! Where was he in '71? Why did he get a new driver's license? Ask again about the court-ordered "community service". Where was Shrub's daddy on November 22nd 1963? Bring it up to date: Why did the US kidnap Aristide? Shrub has A LOT MORE 'splainin' to do than JFK!

[Nancy Waterman]

62. What I would say if I were JFK

I went to war and fought for my country. When I came home, I had deep concern that my country was on the wrong path and I stood and fought for it to find the right path. While in a group who also opposed the war, I strove for moderation, and I quit that particulr group over radical policies that I could not support. I am proud of this record and proud of my consistent struggle to stand for and support the best this country can offer, including my 35 years of public service. I will put this record up against my opponent's last 35 years at any time.

[pfitz59]

68. You got that right......

No wishy-washy BS! Stand up to the smear machine! In 1971 Bush* was a pissing himself, falling-down drunk! Kerry has nothing to be ashamed of. No hemming, hawing or hedging! I expect to see the dirtiest campaign in US history over the next 8 months!

[west hollywood dem]

69. The story really does not contain factual information about Kerry.

But, we have tons of shit on lush and his gang of thieves.

Remember, when they accused Kerry of having an affair with an intern?

Utter bullshit.

Remember, their lame attempt to say that Kerry was lying about meeting with foreign leaders?

The story fizzled out because it was so obviously true.

We have to be strong and ready for these nasty attacks because we have a shit load of misinformation and lies to face from the the Shrub reselection campaign..