China’s hawks demand cold war on the US

[twitomy]

Source: Times

MORE than half of Chinese people questioned in a poll believe China and America are heading for a new “cold war”.

The finding came after battles over Taiwan, Tibet, trade, climate change, internet freedom and human rights which have poisoned relations in the three months since President Barack Obama made a fruitless visit to Beijing.


Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article7017951.ece

---

If they want a cold war, lets have one. Tell them they can take all those IOU's they hold on us and shove it where the sun dont shine. Stop importing all their junk.

Yep it would hurt us mighty, but them worse. And in the long run we'd be better off; them, not so much.

[Pavulon]

1. Worked out well for the USSR. Guess china the oppressor state did not learn

from that. China has plenty to loose.

[DJ13]

2. I see China has their own neocon problem

[greiner3]

3. Damn;

That would mean wally-mart would have to close down. All over the US heads are exploding.

[HeresyLives]

4. It would ruin the US.

China, however, can sell to the rest of the world.

[twitomy]

5. I dunno,

If we repudiated all the money we owe them, who would be hurt more? Sure no one would loan to the US
again, and IMHO that would be a good thing, sorta like taking the booze away from the alocholic.
Sure the US would have some DT's, but heck wouldnt it be nice to have a much lower federal debt and
manufacturing back in the states? If I were Obama, Id say go ahead, start a cold war, and kiss the money owed you goodbye.

[HeresyLives]

6. And what would you do without money?

American companies and bases all over the world would be forfeit.

American manufactured goods would be very pricy, and unaffordable to most Americans...and you couldn't export them, so there wouldn't be any benefit in jobs.

Fortresses don't work.

[Pavulon]

8. Actually a default would cause currency devaluation

making us goods very cheap until inflation set in. China is not in a position to do any of the things mentioned by their kooks.

[HeresyLives]

9. In the real world, it would ruin America.

The US is also not in a position to do anything mentioned by their kooks.

[Pavulon]

15. Sure we are. China is a third world pure capitalist market

and is subject rules that govern that space. The us has the option to raise to cost of entry of chinese goods and develop replacement meatpuppet labor in vietnam. You will note that more shit is flowing in from vietnam these days.

We inport trash from china, garbage. They import westinghouse reactors and other stuff from the US they can not make themselves. That can go bye bye real quick. Just like MFN status.

If China sells weapons to N. Korea we can export AEGIS weapons systems to taiwan and south korea may feel the need to purchase jets equipped to deliver tactical nuclear weapons. We can begin equipping taiwan with far more advanced weapons that would kill many many people in an act of aggression against taiwan by china.

We have billions of dollars to put towards that cause. That would actually create jobs.

We can watch Japan build a thermonuclear program in about two weeks. That is literally an overnight event.

Thats a start.

[HeresyLives]

16. Rome thought well of itself too.

It just wasn't reality.

[Pavulon]

18. Rome could not exterminate a billion people in 30 minutes or less.

not sure if you are talking about economics or the actual business of killing people with conventional or nuclear weapons.

Rome did not put a man on the moon. China is where it is because it sells cheap trash, it is cheap because there are little to no controls on labor or environmental practices.

China is a body shop.

[HeresyLives]

20. Rome exterminated Carthage.

There weren't a billion people on the entire planet at that time...but Rome was capable of extermination all the same.

Rome WAS the world, at least as far as they were concerned. Far in advance of anyone else.

Rome is now history.

[Pavulon]

24. People live in that area now? Eat the food? Now take a look at the Ukraine

what was done in Pripyat can be done to a nation. Alas this is all high drama, china makes cheap shirts and supplies the world with trash at the expense of its environment and labor.

[HeresyLives]

26. I know you enjoy chest-thumping,

but you'd be better off learning to play nice in the sandbox.

[Pavulon]

29. I learned to buy disposable items explicitly not made in China

as I dont want to be poisoned with cadmium, lead, or melamine. If Canada took away all environmental laws, labor laws, and put in place a authoritarian government I could buy all my cheap shit from there. If canadians worked for nothing and i could dump toxic metals all over Canada would be the new china.

That is all china is, cheap labor, and cheap bodies. They are stepping on the corpses to fill intermodal containers with trash for americans to purchase.

[HeresyLives]

34. Like I said, sandboxes work better

when people play nice in them.

They don't work at all when others kick sand for no reason.

Tis called capitalism...and specifically, competition. It's the system Americans prefer.

China is doing the same thing you've done, nothing more.

And if it wasn't China it would be someone else. VietNam is undercutting China right now. Later it will be Africa.

Or more likely, robots.

[Pavulon]

39. Good for the multinationals

not so good for real people here. See I am concerned for people here, not so much for those in china.

[HeresyLives]

43. 'Multinational' is an outdated term.

Businesses are now global, and come from all nations, and operate in all nations. It's not just Americans you know, it works both ways.

[Pavulon]

54. Sure, its great for walmart, and the slave masters

who can get a guy to work for nothing in china. Not so good for the guy in the US whose job is sent there because his counterpart is literally a disposable animal.

Plus they sell SHIT. I mean I figured that out with a coffee maker. The new china mr coffee fucked up after less than a year. Same for the shit hand tools.

So now I buy bunn or snap-on tools. Simply because quality is better than quantity.

You will note that things that you need to live are not made in china. Scuba regulators, reactor components, cars.

[HeresyLives]

58. Oh puleeze.

You and your coffee maker. :eyes:

[Pavulon]

62. See if you can find a rebreather unit made in china.

if you find for gods sake dont use it. Like I said, they make trash because the state treats people like trash.

[HeresyLives]

65. Everything we use today

is made partially, or wholly elsewhere.

[Pavulon]

72. Not everything.

Again systems that can not fail are not made with shit made in china. Reactor control systems and certainly military systems including those that support weapon design are not made of chinese parts. They do want the w88 design but pretty sure it does not have any chinese parts.

This technology is on a no export list and obviously the use of chinese components would be forbidden.

[HeresyLives]

74. Madge, you're typing on it.

Nuclear tech is available all over the world.

[Pavulon]

79. The input systems for reactors are not macbooks

there is a company in georgia that fabricates from us parts input devices (keyboard / touch screens) from domestic parts.

There is nuclear tech, which china has not been able to implement, and then there is nuclear weapon systems, which china has tried to steal from the US.

There is NOTHING made in china that can not be made BETTER somewhere else. They are not about quality, they are about cheap price.

Try to find a scuba rebreather from china.

[Name removed]

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[jmowreader]

130. You would be SHOCKED as to what's made in China

Almost all "passive" components--resistors, capacitors, inductors--are made in China. You can't make military equipment without this stuff.

[Pavulon]

134. Some you sure can.

That is part of the reason some stuff is expensive, would you want to source from China that is required for something like a W88 fusing system. Nyet.

[On the Road]

139. Unfortunately,

people just look at the products they buy in a discount store and assume that's all China manufactures.

Even if you point out the Shanghai skyline, the Three Gorges Dam, the large aerospace and automotive manufacturers, it doesn't seem to make an impression.

"Made in Japan" used to have the same connotation. China is halfway to where Japan is now in manufacturing sophistication.

[jmowreader]

132. See if you can find a Chinese company that even wants to make them

The Chinese don't go for expensive stuff with a very limited market. I did some reading--they cost between $5000 and $10,000, and you need to be certified on them. Unless you're one of the lucky few divers who has a diving job, it is a very expensive piece of recreational equipment for a sport that is in itself very expensive...so they're not the kind of thing the Chinese want to make.

[Pavulon]

135. Correct, they make low bid shit.

if you want an MRI unit, reactor vessel or other equipment that life depends on, you dont get it in china. I'm pretty sure no regulator sold in the US or Europe is made in china.

I may be wrong but I sure wouldn't buy it.

[bejamin wood]

142. I was buying auto drip coffee pots about every four months

I thought I was just making a lot... Then I started reading labels. Now I've had the same one for SEVEN years! I haven't been to Wal-Mart since.

[Pavulon]

143. Yep. A mr coffee from the mid-late 80 may still work

but no way a new one will make it two years. Bunn is a good american maker (good quality) the european stuff is good. My wife bought a nice machine for her office from Williams and Sonoma. Makes great coffee but not reasonable.

The disposable mindset is what underpins the demand for chinese stuff. Now instead of returning a crappy product, people just replace it with more cheaper crap.

Life is to short for that.

[Hello_Kitty]

113. So you're saying we should accept crappy products with lead and melamine in them?

Really?

[yava]

45. WELL, Well, well

That would make an earth and a world of 1.6 billion people: 300 million in the US and 1300 million in China.
But, isn't there something missing?
I was told we are over 6 billion.
Agreed, the US is tops in producing everything related to information technology but I think MAYBE?? there are other places in the world where China can buy high tech and invest, just thought you might want to consider....

[Pavulon]

49. We drive tech, they sell us shit. We sell them

advanced systems only made in a handful of nations. The french for example could export reactors to them.

[HeresyLives]

55. 'Shit, junk, trash'.....what?

China sells products. YOU buy them.

If you didn't like them, you wouldn't do so.

China builds it's own reactors, and has people in space.

You'll shortly be driving their cars.

[Pavulon]

60. Nope, I do profit from selling them westinghouse reactors.

there is NOTHING made in china that is not made better somewhere else. Their reactors kill people, their submarines kill their crews. They design for disposable people. We do not. They are a body shop, thats it. They are not innovating they are not making the world better with medical research.

I do not drive cars where the passenger is the crumple zone. If your life disposable because the state say so sure, not here.

KIA has the cheap car market tied up.

[HeresyLives]

63. Westinghouse reactors eh?

Westinghouse Electric Company (WEC), a Toshiba Group Company, offers a wide range of nuclear products and services to utilities throughout the world, including nuclear fuel, service and maintenance, instrumentation and control and advanced nuclear plant designs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Electric_Company

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

68. Yeppers. But fabrication is done here

for both civilian systems and for military reactors like those used in us submarines. That technology china can not seem to perfect. At least they are not going to build some chernobyl.

Google ap1000. Principal design for PLC is done here. So is the work proved out in Idaho Falls.

[HeresyLives]

71. Fabrication is done all over.

China has people in space, and they have their own reactors.

China invented much of the modern world, so why you are insisting they are sub-human with inferior IQs I don't know, but I think you've taken your coffee pot over the brink.

[Pavulon]

75. The state treats people like animals

determines reproductive rights, kills dissenters, and does not regulate labor. For that reason a company can use horrible labor practices legally.

China has historical periods, any one with any sense would look at the post ww2 period as different than the dynasties.

[HeresyLives]

77. Enough with coffeepots and racism.

China has been around for over 5000 years, and they have always been noted for their intelligence.

[Pavulon]

82. China;s government post ww2 is the topic, not the dynasties.

their own government is the one who jails them, crashes dissent, and hides information behind a massive firewall.

[Hello_Kitty]

114. Which makes it okay for them to be oppressive dictators now? eom

[yava]

101. Have you been there lately?

They are investing heavily in Science and their universities, getting better everyday.
Of course this concerns for now only about 10-15 % of their people but that is still 130 to 200 million people.
We have to let our preception evolve with the facts, even though I agree with the assessment of the low quality of their exports. But they are getting better, and they are much cheaper. Here in Europe it is not only tee-shirts and toys. It is refrigirators, washing machine, coffe makers, fans, air conditioners etc. They are quickly getting there.

[yava]

111. They can buy everything they want in the new Japan

starting with high-speed trains, advanced power stations (nuclear or otherwise etc) until they can make their own fast enough for 10%/yr growth.
Aircraft engines are harder to acquire. The technology is basically Western as Russia fell behind and Japan was not allowed to build aircrafts for a long time after WWII

[HeresyLives]

51. The world has 6.5 billion people.

China accounts for 1.2 billion of them.

[Name removed]

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[totodeinhere]

133. That's true, but what's you point? n/t

[NWHarkness]

81. Well, yeah, but...

Rome stood predominant for hundreds of years after they destroyed Carthage.

[HeresyLives]

84. Things moved more slowly then.

You'll notice that as time has marched on, empires disappear more rapidly.

Compare the Roman empire to the British one to the Soviet one.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

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[DeSwiss]

137. And yet this is China's reality:

Bridges made of trash:


Buildings that fall over like dominoes:


And of course, their waste management expertise:


http://www.weirdasianews.com/2010/02/05/shanghai-wonderbridge-trash-collapses">MORE

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2010/01/01/shanghai-bridge-made-of-rubbish-collapses/">AND MORE STILL

- Is this what the rest of the world wants to buy from China? Does the word melamine ring any bells?

[WinkyDink]

89. China doesn't need us at all, if she decides to establish a true Middle-Class to buy Chinese goods.

[Hardrada]

116. Too exciting for me.

[Threedifferentones]

124. I disagree completely, Pavulon.

Chinese factories give American companies what we ask for. The Chinese have surfaced a nuclear sub undetected in the middle of an American naval training exercise. The Chinese have had nuclear power for decades, and have shot down an orbiting satellite with an Earth launched rocket. That is all the the firepower you need to never be fucked with. Obviously they have found it convenient to go with the imported Westinghouse reactors for now, but how long before they can do as good or better? More importantly, Westinghouse is controlled by Toshiba, so America can't just force Westinghouse to stop its sales, although Japan might agree to help us. But, you make it sound as if China collapses without American help, and is only out of the stone age because of our tech. Pfffft. That crap they make drives our economy, that's why we order it. If you stop buying the clothes and selling the reactors, you only guarantee that China, which knows exactly what goes in to those reactors, makes a domestic model which equals or exceeds it that much sooner.

The way I see it, class warfare is the future: In both countries, wealthy people make the decisions. Wealthy Americans have big economic stakes in China, and vice versa. So, a war, whether economic or military, does not benefit the ruling classes, and will not happen. As globalization continues its inevitable march, nationhood becomes less and less important. If Chinese workers get better wages, our wages are helped as well, because that's one huge labor force that can no longer be had for cheap. Hence, American workers gain when foreign workers, Chinese or otherwise, gain, and we hurt when they hurt.

[Pavulon]

136. Everything you listed we did in the 60;s

subs and space was done well before Lemay left the Air Force. There is NOTHING made in china that is not made better by someone else. Art, food, and literature not withstanding.

Their subs are soviet knockoffs like their jets and they have similar problems. They may have decided that the USSR designed reactors may not quite meet US or French design.

I can do without a shitty shirt or substandard handtools. I can do without rubbermaid. They can no do without high end american technology or without access to the american market.

Period.

[Threedifferentones]

138. You're the one stuck in the sixties.

In the 1960s, Americans had subs that could travel undetected into the midst of modern American carrier groups? Kitty Hawk is old, but her escort ships were not, and her electronics were kept updated.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html

America is no longer the undisputed top dog in anything other than conventional military power. Even there, as that article makes clear, our superiority may be vastly overrated. Trading a few subs for America's biggest carriers is hugely worth it in a hypothetical war, and it looks like China could do it. But, the leaders of both nations know that neither economy will be helped by a military confrontation between two huge trading partners, so it actually matters much less than you seem to appreciate.

My point is that whether they could start work on an AP1000 tomorrow without American and Japanese help or not, they are going to get as many as they need. That's because our economies, and the fortunes of the people who control them, are becoming inexorably linked. As such, 99.9% of technology invented by one side will wind up in the marketplace of the other as well.

The Chinese need the American market place like we need cheap clothes. Nice to have, but there are plenty of options. As the American market shrinks, others will grow. If we could bully Chinese businessmen into better trade deals, we would, just as they would to us. We can't, because as American power and prestige has been shrinking since the end of the Cold War, China has been growing, and we are now clearly peers with a shared economic destiny.

[Pavulon]

140. The bend over and take it mentality is noted

here are a few little tidbits:

China makes shitty subs they ripped off from the USSR. They have NOTHING close to what we have. They are 20 years behind the best sub design we have, at least. They do not innovate, they just take other peoples shit. That goes for aerospace as well.

The Ohio class we field has no counter part from china. The seawolf class is decades ahead of what they have. These are not diesel electric soviet designs. They are the best made.

The w-88 they cream their pants over is 30 years ahead of what they field. They have bodies, like the soviet model they emulate. The first gulf war shows how effective that is.

Sitting on the bottom running no pumps waiting is not going to work long term. Nothing they make is even close to what comes out of groton.

Their economy is about 1/4 of ours based on GDP. .25 percent. They are export based, a body shop. No more, no less. Vietnam can make a cheap shirt too.

There are two markets that matter, the US and Europe. Thats it. The fact the guys who make trade decisions wear knee pads and have no gag reflex is not reflective of the state of the US military or its economy.

China exists to sell shit in walmart.

By the way, every person I meet who is a bright engineer from china MOVES here, because they can live better and the government is horrible. Seems that as long as we keep pulling the best talent from places like india and china the innovation stays right here.

Drive by caltech or mit, pulling the best in the world since the early 30's.

We are not peers, they make shirts and plastic to sell to walmart.

[Threedifferentones]

144. Care to respond to the real substance of my posts?

It seems pretty clear you read more Tom Clancy than me, congrats on knowing all about America's shiny death toys.

Too bad they are not very relevant to American and Chinese relations. We trade too much with one another, and share too many trading partners, for it to be worth it to our masters to start a real fight. Especially since a few nukes from either side would make all those ships and all those guns irrelevant.

As you are surely aware, war is generally declared by the ruling class and for the ruling class. I'm not sure why I am repeating this to you a third time, but, as globalization continues, the ties between elites in different nations will only increase. Rich Americans own stakes in China and vice versa. China will get the tech it needs with our help because it is getting rich. If we refuse to help, other long developed nations will be happy to pick up our slack and our share of China's products. The American market is still the biggest in the world, but the gap has been shrinking steadily, and shows no sign of slowing, to the point that we must consider the writing on the wall: the days of America being #1 are ending.

Masturbating over America's ability to build ballin' ships is so 1960s. Thinking we will ever actually use them against a country as big as China even more so. There will probably always be enough wealth for the rich of China and America to share, the big question is can we force them to share it with us little folk as well?

[pipoman]

121. I hear this a lot,

yet it seemed to work for decades, the real irreversible disaster hit when the globalists began chanting that protection of US standard of living through trade tariffs and restrictions with uncompetitive countries 'don't work'. I think that the whole idea that the answer to our financial woes is in trade with nations who 1. hate us, and 2. have no inclination to progress their own people's standard of living, is the lie of the corporatist and is repeated as truth by the ignorant in this country and those who stand to personally benefit from the exportation of our standard of living.

[izquierdista]

122. Bases all over the world gone?

Oh, stop, don't get my hopes up like that on a Monday morning.

[24601]

110. Yeah, you owe the bank $1000 and you have a problem, but if

you owe it $5 Million, the bank has the problem!

[Mithreal]

7. -1

[BobRossi]

12. Gee, we're in such good shape now.

How could we tell if we were ruined?

[HeresyLives]

13. Oh it could get one helluva lot worse.

[Zynx]

31. Their trade surplus with us is bigger than their overall trade surplus.

That means that without our market they would be running a trade deficit. Their economic development path looks a lot different without us. They are at least as reliant on us as we are on them.

[HeresyLives]

37. No, they would just sell to the other 5 billion people

in the world. At the moment they can't make enough to supply everyone.

[Pavulon]

41. The only markets of scale are Europe and US.

Japan is up there. But in all reality most people in china are still to poor to buy the shit they make.

[HeresyLives]

47. There are billionaires in China.

The EU is massive, so is China and India. Ditto with Brazil and Russia.

I don't know why you think everyone else is poor.

[Zynx]

56. That is a very poor economic analysis. China already sells to all of those markets.

Brazil and Russia, while having the U.S. level of population added together, have nowhere near the same levels of income. Also, their domestic manufacturing is more competitive vis-a-vis China due to lower wage rates than ours is.

[HeresyLives]

67. Small amounts, they can sell more.

Like I said, realeconomiks

[smiley_glad_hands]

126. Don't you think if they could sell more to others, they already would be doing that? eom

[Pavulon]

64. Ever been there?

I have been to India and China, Brazil and there are poor people there. By poor I mean like no poverty you see in the US. The "middle class" is very small there. You are rich or live in filth and have no support.

You see, that will be the result of dumping all our manufacturing to low bid.

[HeresyLives]

66. Regularly.

And there are poor people everywhere. Also billionaires.

Their middle class is bigger than your entire population.

[Pavulon]

70. Define middle class. Ever leave the city?

take a little drive around the country side?

[HeresyLives]

73. Enough with the coffeepot analysis.

I don't listen to racism.

[Pavulon]

83. What EXACTLY did I post that was Racist?

I posted a clear position on the chinese economy and you call it racist.

[smiley_glad_hands]

127. This person has a clear agenda on China, don't let their misinformation get you frustrated. eom

[Zynx]

46. Not exactly. Very few other countries have our levels of consumption and those that are

close have already largely satisfied their consumption needs as evidenced by fairly robust savings rates. China has significant excess factory capacity (much more than most countries) and still has a large number of unemployed workers. If there was sufficient demand, they could easily meet it. Without the U.S., there isn't enough demand.

[HeresyLives]

48. Then you are unaware of the actual situation.

[Zynx]

50. No. I am familiar with the data. China has significant excess factory capacity.

They could produce a great deal more than they do, but there is not sufficient final demand out there to soak up the capacity. Look up "China Capacity Utilization" in Google and get back to me.

I am actually very familiar with economic data series.

[HeresyLives]

61. They are normally going at full tilt.

Mild cutbacks now because of the 'recession', but they could easily sell elsewhere.

China can gear up or gear down very easily. Unlike here.

PS...when you find economic data...anywhere...that predicted this crisis, or indicates what to do about it, lemme know.

Until then I'll go by realpolitik, and realeconomik.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[proteus_lives]

102. Look who it is!

Mao's number-one fangirl!

[smiley_glad_hands]

125. You just loves you some China, eh?

Fuck China.

[totodeinhere]

128. But China cannot afford to stop trading with the world's largest economy, the USA.

That's why I think this story is a bunch of hot air. China and the US are joined at the hip whether either of them like it or not.

[Name removed]

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[HeresyLives]

11. Ahh the calm reasoned response. LOL

[Name removed]

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[daleo]

108. It's called the world wide web

And Chinese-American relations are everyone's business. You should think twice before giving in to the ugly American stereotype.

[yava]

112. FreakinDJ- thats not fair

this discussion is on world trade and its defects, imbalances.
Why do you consider it a strictly US affaire? China has financial and market weight everywhere, not just in the US. It is now the 2nd largest economy, forecasted to be the 1st in a few years

[JDPriestly]

14. The doors between the U.S. and China were opened much to quickly.

We see the Chinese government as a greedy, secretive, power-hungry bunch, and they probably see our whole country in that same light.

Just destroying all the floodgates and letting trade go "free" was the absolutely wrong thing to do. Free trade may be a commendable goal, but it should have been achieved in a slow, inch-by-inch process.

Business leaders in all countries have just turned into ruthless barbarians willing to eat their own children and grandchildren just to stay alive themselves in the new economic environment. And the economic invaders of China have led the way.

Instead of lifting all boats, "free" trade is sinking everyone.

We ordinary Americans don't like what is going on. I am reassured to learn that the Chinese people don't like it either.

There is a war already going on and both ordinary American and ordinary Chinese people are losing it. This is quite interesting. Apparently, the Chinese people are just as angry and frustrated with us as we are with them.

Actually, if we could just get our so-called "leaders" out of the negotiations, we the people both Chinese and American, could probably work out a good deal for everyone.

[HeresyLives]

17. You don't have 'free trade' with China.

Just ordinary international trade, same as has always existed.

'Free trade' is what exists in NAFTA between the US, Canada and Mexico.

[JDPriestly]

23. Then why do we have so much of it? We do not seem to have any

barriers to trade with China.

[HeresyLives]

25. The US has trade with most countries.

But 'free trade' is a specific agreement between 2 or more countries that pretty much everything is open for trade, with the least amount of protectionism possible.

You can trade lots of things with China, but not all by any means.

[Zynx]

32. Trade as it "always" has existed is a strange term.

Go back 70 years we had an average of at least a 25% tariff on just about everything.

[HeresyLives]

35. The world has always traded goods.

Egypt did it, Rome did it, the UK still does it. That's not new.

Some nations, including the US, put tariffs on things to protect industries that were in their infancy at home. Until they could get up and running and compete on a level playing field with other nations.

[Zynx]

42. I'm very familiar with history, thank you. My point is that our trade with China is in absence

of significant trade barriers. There are generally very few in this country except on a very few goods that are usually only for political reasons (sugar, occasionally steel, etc).

[HeresyLives]

44. Last thing the world needs is trade barriers.

But you have a great many with China.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

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[yava]

120. FreakinDJ , the Canadian is just exercising free speech

Why do you get so upset about foreign individuals, obviously friendly to the US, chipping in when foreign multi-nationals will be able to buy senators this year?

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

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[Vinnie From Indy]

19. Say hello to $25.00 underwear and socks

The fact is that many of Americans most basic necessities are now made in China. We do not even have the machinery to make some things as the machines were crated and shipped to China.

I doubt very much that the Chinese leadership wants a real cold war with the US. There is way too much money to be made the way things are currently. From a philosophical standpoint, the Chinese are no doubt following the maxims of Sun Tzu in regard to any future confrontation with the US. They know that each year we become weaker because of unrestrained Capitalism which has led us to dismantle our capability to manufacture the basic necessities of our people. They know that corporations have no allegiance to a country and they are probably dismayed and amazed at the current debate about corporate "personhood". If the Chinese were to have the intention of supplanting the US as the world's superpower, it is likely they will simply watch as we self-destruct over time. I am quite confident that ANY anti-US bashing done in China is done for domestic political reasons. The Chinese have no intention of provoking the US into a war of any type right now. Sun Tzu in a nutshell says "when your opponent is digging themselves into a hole, don't stop them".

[HeresyLives]

22. Agreed. n/t

[Confusious]

99. I doubt socks and underwear would be 25 dollars

Might cost you $1-$2 bucks more.

Most corps move there because they can pay people pennies, and then sell products back here for BIG profit.

Nike as an example, makes a $10 pair of shoes and sells them for $50 here. If they moved back, it would cost $20-25 a pair, they just wouldn't make as much PROFIT if they charged $50. No one wants to take food out of the mouths of the poor, fat corporations. How could they survive on a meager $25 profit from every pair of shoes? makes me want to cry :cry:

You're getting suckered on the "prices through the roof" meme.

[DavidDvorkin]

21. Yeah, let's respond by swaggering and acting all John Wayne!

Oops, he was a fake, movie tough guy. Never mind.

[Mari333]

27. but the chinese are corporate america's new slave labour force

corporate states of america wouldnt like that.

[The abyss]

28. No cold war needed.

They want to put the US down then they simply stop showing up at the T-Bill auctions.

This country won’t last a New York minute as soon as the rest of world stops buying our debt.

[Pavulon]

30. They will do that right after they slice off their nose

because they would take a massive loss on the debt they hold now.

[The abyss]

36. That is exactly why it hasn’t happened.

Yet.

Given enough time it will.

Their society can take the hit much better than Suzie soccer mom or six-pack Joe.

[Pavulon]

40. They are totalitarian and kill or jail dissenters

so yea, they may need to kill some people but they may be all right. Just like those guys who asked about schools collapsing, gone.

[HeresyLives]

76. And have horns, and hoofs and....

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

85. Are you actually defending the chinese government? The one that jailed

people for asking about school collapses? The one that could kill me for posting my opinion if I lived there?

Nice.

[HeresyLives]

86. China doesn't need defending. It exists, and no you can't

nuke it because you got pissed off over a coffeepot.

[Pavulon]

88. But I can tell it to only have one kid, shoot people who dissent, and oppress

the population? You would be advised to apologize for calling me a racist. That is a pretty shitty thing to do, even on the internet.

[proteus_lives]

103. See no evil huh?

Pretty sad.

What did Tibet ever do to you?

[Zynx]

33. Actually, it would just require only slightly higher interest rates.

That would make up the difference in a hurry. We would have to raise taxes to pay the interest, but still it would not be the end of the world. Without the U.S. as an export market, China would have difficulty as well.

[HeresyLives]

38. Interest rates are pretty much the same everywhere.

[Zynx]

57. ? What is your point?

[HeresyLives]

69. My point is that it's now a global world.

And all the countries in it do business with each other. By wish, and by need and by merit.

And wanting any kind of a war...hot, cold or trade...with other countries is self-defeating.

[PFunk]

52. The end result for the US in a US/China cold war is short term pain/long term gain

That is the US will undergo a very painful contraction period as the US ecconomy reorganizes itself to be primarly more self-sustaning local/regional one. We'll lose out superpower status, but a downgraded US will be better for it.

[smitty]

59. Yeah, I can grow my own victory garden and buy a locally made

automobile that runs on corn oil. Get real.

[HeresyLives]

78. The US will have short term, long term and permanent pain.

In fact, the US won't exist anymore.

[Mithreal]

117. Why do you hate America and average Americans?

[Joanne98]

53. Good.

[HeresyLives]

87. This was an interesting discussion until the 'yellow peril'

commentary showed up.

I'm outta here.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

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[YankmeCrankme]

100. Hey buddy, knock it off!

You have no right to tell posters what threads they can comment on. There is no requirement to be a US citizen to post on this board. Get over yourself.

[FreakinDJ]

90. Good Answer to a BIG Problem

[Unvanguard]

95. Not a chance. The issues are trivialities compared to the level of trade between the two.

China is not going to ruin itself.

[L0oniX]

104. Well ...that would be one way to kill off Walmart.

[Mithreal]

118. +1

[Odin2005]

105. BRING IT ON!!!

What's that saying? If you owe the bank a billion dollars you own the bank? If they want to take us down will take their economy down right with us, the fuckers!

[roamer65]

107. Just wait till they make "the run" for the middle eastern oilfields.

That's when the fun will begin.

[mbperrin]

131. You mean like this?

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm?aid=3021

China’s Oil Giants to Develop Iraq Oil Field
From People’s Daily
China National Petroleum Corporation (CNPC), Total Exploration and Production in Iraq (hereafter referred to as "Total") and Petroliam Nasional Berhad (referred to as "Petronas") jointly won the bid for Halfaya oilfield in Iraq on January 27, 2010, according to Shanghai Securities News.

As requested, CNPC, Total and Petronas will join South Oil Company in Iraq to form a consortium, signing a 20-year contract with Iraq on January 27, 2010.

Under the contract, CNPC will work as the operator, and CNPC, Total, Petronas and the Iraqi South Oil Company are to own 37.5 percent, 18.75 percent, 18.75 percent and 25 percent rights and interests respectively.

[TexasObserver]

109. China is a paper tiger.

Big talk is their specialty. Lots of chest thumping and righteous indignation. Kind of like Republicans.

The US and China get along because they have to, and they'll keep getting along, but like relatives that resent each other, they'll still give each other the evil eye and sneer on occasion.

China needs US buyers for the mountains of cheap crap they build. Either they finance some of those purchases or they lose them.

Eventually all the old timers in China will die off, and there will be a new era that is less consumed by constant worries about "saving face."

[jonathan_seer]

115. All international trade is exempt from the fuel taxes and surcharges local businesses must pay

That is extremely important when trying to understand how the rapidly developed trade relationship between the USA and China developed to its current unhealthy state.

If you have you wondered from time to time just how can it be possible for it to be cheaper to bring over products that are already pretty cheap to make from China - things like gum, lotion, everyday products that can't have enough margin to justify importing this is a big part of the answer.

Importers and exporters are exempt from all fuel taxes.

This is a huge "tax break" especially for importers over exporters, considering that the smaller the overall price of the product you are selling the bigger factor a "tax break" tax break on all fuel taxes becomes in making a profit.

I understand that fuel is the biggest expense shippers face.

For those who might not know "shippers" are NOT part of the manufacturers or big name companies we know. They are little known multi-billion $ companies paid to transport goods across the globe.

They exist in a world few Americans are only dimly aware of. Their key role and vast impact rules and regulations governing international trade have on the local economy by way of creating unfair advantages for overseas industries vs a vs. local industry is even less widely known.

The average tax per gallon in the USA, 46 cents.

A typical loaded semi might get 3miles per gallon fully loaded driving the miles from LA to NYC.

Fuel Taxes alone would amount to $460 per load - that's a grossly rough estimate. the purpose is only to compare it to the taxes an international shipper would pay.

An international shipper transporting from Hong Kong to LA, CA would pay $0 in fuel taxes despite traveling many times further!!

Considering the total savings, this tax break can be the profit margin plus for many international shippers.


Can you imagine what would happen if they had to pay European level fuel taxes usually several dollars in the heavily taxed Euro nations.

Everyone locally all local businesses and industries have to pay this tax to ship their products to local consumers. When they do, they get the privilege of paying the local going tax rate.
When you factor that in to the cost of making something suddenly the strange proposition of it being cheaper to make candy in China and ship it to the USA starts to make sense.

International Shipping has all sorts of incentives to make it "affordable."

Free market advocates conveniently NEVER mention this.


In their eyes this is essential to make it possible to trade internationally.

Which is of course nonsense.

Cheap stuff like candy and other consumer products would not be cheaper to make overseas without such hidden subsidies.

World economic efficiency does not benefit when taxing policies create false paradigms that grant benefits to decisions that otherwise would make little economic sense.

Instead hidden subsidies like this one create fertile ground for the growth of parasitic trade whose margin would not exist were it not for the subsidies, and by no measure meet the principal behind the original decision which was to take advantage of differing costs of manufacturing in the world to locate and send the manufacturing most efficiently done there.

Theoretically there should be ample locations, many with their own "strength." This diversity is supposed to prevent a super concentration of manufacturing and industry in any one world location.

The "international fuel trade tax exemption" cripples this mechanism resulting in the development of parasitic trade relationships that only benefit one side in terms of long-term growth and development.

Paying the going tax rate for fuel would NOT kill international trade.

It would slow it down to its natural level and help it return to sensible reasonable levels of growth, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY encourage the businesses who shipped work overseas to come back home.

The products that truly do benefit from overseas production would stay there - going a long way to restoring the integrity that was behind the original act to exempt fuel used by international trade from all taxes

Removing the cutthroat advantages these subsidies create in trade benefits both sides.

China would be allowed to develop more sensibly and avoided much of the nightmare associated with becoming the world's factory floor and its people suffering from the effects of the massive pollution this has caused.

Americans would have been able to move away from those industries that are better done in China without the massive economic dislocation that is stripping this nation of its economic strength replacing it with fantasy wealth based on nothing more than financial rules and regulations that only exist because every player promises to respect them.

[twitomy]

119. Wow, didnt know that....

I too always wondered how they could make money on low margin items given the shipping costs.
This explains at least part of the answer...

[Crowman1979]

123. All thanks to the Bush Crime Family!

If it weren't for them, China's rise to power would have taken a lot longer. :sarcasm:

My solution, take most of the money we spend on defense and put it to use in building up industry here in the USA, exploring space, increase the VA and pay the debt.:sarcasm:

[smiley_glad_hands]

129. Let's get it on.

It would give us a chance set so many things that are wrong, right.

[bejamin wood]

141. It would hurt deeply

...but kinda like strep throat. You eventually start feeling better each day. I have no beef with China. I think they are just finding their own way to be competitive, but we are simply funding their agenda, not our own at this time.