Turkish girl reportedly buried alive for talking to boys

[Behind the Aegis]

Source: Ha'aretz

A 16-year-old Turkish girl was buried alive by relatives as a punishment for talking to boys, the Hurriyet newspaper reported on Thursday.

Police discovered the body of the girl, identified only as M.M., in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-meter-deep hole dug under a chicken pen outside her house in Kahta in the southeastern province of Adiyaman, the Turkish daily reported on its website.

The body was found in December, around 40 days after M.M. went missing. Police have arrested and charged the girl's father and grandfather over the murder. The father reportedly said in his testimony that the family was unhappy his daughter had male friends. Her mother was also arrested but later released.

A postmortem examination revealed a significant amount of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she was buried alive and conscious, forensic experts told the Anatolia news agency.


Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1147823.html

---

(9)

[old mark]

1. Real love......

rec.

[Lasher]

2. Can't summon words so I'll just k&r. n/t

[Wardoc]

3. It makes you wonder...

Is that father incapable of love? Does he wake up in the middle of night thinking of the little baby that he held once not so long ago? A baby that grew into a girl that he then put into the ground for a frivolous argument. A girl who one day would have given him young grandchildren to teach and to play with and to love, that he will now never know.

How can he forgive himself? How can his wife forgive him or herself?

Raises more questions that answers.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tsuki]

98. You are assuming that he ever held or talked to the girl. nt

[anonymous171]

116. In tribal societies, one "dishonorable" act by a family member could mean the death of your clan

[whathehell]

163. Yeah...

The question is, Why is the burden of "honor" in Islamic societies almost ALWAYS placed on the girls and women?....They're just so much more "dispensible" I guess!..and, physically speaking, so much easier to push around.

Charming.:puke:

[superconnected]

186. So what? No justification for this.

[wroberts189]

147. yes... Incomprehensible.. absolutely incomprehensible..

You hit the core... how on earth could a father do this? After raising her for 16 years? For talking to boys? WTF?

Then another poster pointed out this happens in Turkey around 200 times a year per the UK Guardian article.


Incomprehensible.. absolutely incomprehensible.

On edit: I could care less about family or clan "honor" that some profess is the reasoning behind it. Real family honor would be to protect her.

[willing dwarf]

4. Horror beyond words

Is this the sort of thing which humans have struggled against for ages?

As much as this is a story of men and the oppression of women, it also shows how dangerous are the fault lines between old ideas and the new. The craziness of men and their fear of women being free really shows up when the old ways come into contact with the new.

I wonder what her mother knew. Did she let this happen? Did she struggle to save her daughter?

[liberal N proud]

5. As a father, I can't imagine anything that would drive me to this

How does someone like this live with themselves?

[wroberts189]

19. ..or even consider it ....let alone let it happen. I keep thinking I have...

..been shocked enough. Then my shock-meter blows out again.

So it is that in some places the middle ages never ended.

I hope she is in peace and love now.

[superconnected]

187. That's where I am. I've come to realize that being shocked anew will never cease.

I can't phantom how men can do things like this to young girls, children, women in general. I know the guys I'm around here in the US wouldn't be able to handle doing something like that to anyone. Must take a special kind of monster.

[rfranklin]

6. This is the conservative-Republican model of family...

Father knows best and must be obeyed or the consequences will be severe.

[Rebubula]

14. Hyperbole

This goes FAR FUCKING Beyond conservative-republican models. This is insane even on their standards.

If making everything horror in the world be about US politics and the crimes of the a small group of people helps you through the day - so be it. But it not even remotely comparable. And you know it...

[whathehell]

175. Thank you for some Sanity....

Many here (sadly)contort themselves into veritable pretzels in the interests of being "politically correct".

Unwritten Rule for The Above: Never criticize a Non-Western religion. If the offense is truly egregious, you MAY make a lame attempt at false equivalence by using the term "organized religion", but please...nothing specific.

[BennyD]

33. Not even close. This doesn't compare to ANY American values I know of.

Comparing this to any political movement or party is absolutely ridiculous. It's tantamount to referring to Republicans as Nazis. We may not agree with their proposed solutions to our country's challenges, but the solutions they offer have nothing to do with putting people into ovens!!! And the attempt by people to portray our political opponents as Nazis only serves to reduce the REAL evil of Hitler.

I know several "conservative" family's and they - like you and I - would never consider burying their children alive! So shut your pie-hole.

[soleft]

51. This happens in America all the time. It has nothing to do with Values

It has to do with a mental state that renders an person devoid of compassion, empathy and makes one capable of performing monstrous acts.

The newspaper is filled with stories of Americans doing montrous things to their children everyday. Maybe the motivations are different, but the inhumanity is the same.

[crim son]

97. You make an excellent point.

I have to believe that under the same circumstances most Turkish fathers would not even consider murdering their child, whatever their society or religion calls for. But there are creatures out there that look like human beings but aren't and this man is one of those.

[rfranklin]

110. Yet there are many "Christians" who want to stone people to death...

for various infractions (including homosexuality) in keeping with the Bible. And virtually all of them also profess to be Republicans.

[crim son]

115. There are those Christians, true.

Adherence to any dogmatic religion gives some people unwarranted certainty about what is and isn't true, and that certainty might permit & even encourage violence against others. I love history and it is instructive: religion is used to compel people to stick to certain "norms" of behavior where otherwise such norms would be hard to justify. I'm an ex-Catholic for that very reason.

[whathehell]

150. They may "want to"...but they don't and neither their religion nor their culture sanctions it.

If one A-hole like the creep who killed Dr. Tiller goes there, he gets ARRESTED, Tried and Convicted!

Good try for false equivalence, though.

[marshall]

194. Wanting to do something and actually doing it are two different things

Thank the maker.

[bitchkitty]

131. Not only him -

was this not decided in a family meeting? That's what I got from the story.

[crim son]

135. Yes. I wonder to what degree anybody besides Daddy

had a real say in the decision, though. I mean, if you are willing to kill your daughter because she talks to boys what might you do to your wife if she disagrees with you? An unruly wife/brother/son/mother must surely be as shameful as a "promiscuous" daughter.

It's insane: I can only guess at what goes on in the heads of such people.

[whathehell]

164. Well, motivations count, I'm afraid.....Especially

when they are INSTITUTIONALIZED in a Culture, and religion is a part of culture.

"Monstrous things" done in America and most OTHER places are PENALIZED -- not encouraged or "condoned" by some bullshit "code of honor".

[Sabriel]

76. Something similar happened here in Wisconsin

The parents refused medical intervention for their diabetic daughter, on the belief that prayer would heal her.

She died.

Neglect or burying alive, the end effect is the same.

[eqfan592]

79. The end result may be the same....

...but those are two VERY different situations, with likely two VERY different mentalities on the side of the parents, so no, these are NOT similar situations. The parents in Wisconsin genuinely thought they were going to save their daughters live through prayer. The parents in this story seemed more interested in punishment.

[BennyD]

96. the end result may have been the same but one hoped for healing and the other punishment. n/t

[undeterred]

107. It is absurd to compare an incident

where relatives buried their daughter alive with a case of medical neglect. The result may be the same, but the intentions were totally different. And our law recognizes intentions when considering crime.

[whathehell]

174. False equivalence again?....Perhaps the "end" effect is the same

but I'd bet the "process" was a lot more more horrible in the Turkish case.

I'd certainly rather die in a diabetic coma than be CONSCIOUS enough to experience my own parents Torture me to death by burying me alive...and I think you would too...Please..let's get real.:eyes:

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proteus_lives]

113. Horseshit.

I'm no fan of conservatives or rethugs but that equivalent-shit does not fly.

[emilyg]

124. Bull.

[whathehell]

166. Give me a break...

When's the last time you heard of even the most right-wing Repub burying his own child ALIVE?...Or killing them in ANY manner -- for something like "talking to boys"?

Such a person would be considered EVIL..probably psychotic.

[jennied]

7. WTF

[Ken Burch]

8. Disgusting. And a lot of TURKS and other Muslims will think so, too.

n/t.

[mainer]

25. Turks will be horrified. This sounds more sociopathic than religious.

Turkey has its conservative and its liberal regions. And to the west, they are far more European in their outlook -- they will certainly be disgusted.

[elocs]

9. I wonder...will there be the same outrage if the Taliban regains control of Afghanistan

when we leave and keeps women in their place with an iron fist, or takes revenge on every person who ever helped us there? Sure, we do need to leave, but we also need to understand the law of unintended consequences and realize that our leaving will not leave that embattled country in sweetness and light. The women will especially pay a price.

[jonnyblitz]

10. Women have it just as bad under our puppet Karzai right now.

so many of you here at DU seem to be ignorant of this fact.

[No Elephants]

20. We won't leave women well off in Iraq, either.

We took over a secular nation and, under Bush, while we controlled Iraq completely, allowed them to incorporate all of Sharia law into the Iraqi Constitution. And, our occupation turned a nation that was relatively al Qaeeda free into a nation full of new al Qaeeda recruits. Sooooo, when we leave, Iraqi women are very unlikely to be okay.

Burns me up that our female troops there have been fighting for Iraqi men, not for Iraqis.

[Enthusiast]

77. +1, No Elephants.

But Iraq made Dubya happy. We had to make Dubya happy. "Look Dubya, see how great you are?"

[trumad]

11. Well with that thinking---let's invade Turkey--

you know us Americans have to save the world.

[Duende azul]

42. What's your point? (And a word on unintended consequences)

Leave or not leave?
These supposedly unintended consequences have been pointed out ever since the US involvement started.

Seriously, was that ever the point when the US helped to topple the secular Afghan government to bring down the Soviet Union by proxy?
No one cared about the women at that time.
And no one cares about the women today. Not in Afghanistan, not in Saudi Arabia, not in Iraq.
And not in Yemen, where a "traditional" regime is backed against a southern secessionist movement that at least partially is formed by more secular forces from the former socialist South Yemen.
And in Iran they care about womens rights only for geostrategical reasons.
One of the less religious regimes in the middle east is Syria. And guess what? It's on the enemies list.

Regarding Turkey: Turkey is needed to build bridges between US, Israel and the west in general into the arabic world. So the religious neoosmanic government is welcomed for its ability to reach out to a more and more islamistic Arabia.
The antagonistic non religious forces in Turkey are the nationalists/military/fascists on one side and the kurdish resistance with the remains of the turkish left on the other. Guess whom the US will support in case of doubt?

The claim for the US meddling in the region to make progress for women is contradicted by the past and present choice of allies.

[anonymous171]

118. Who gives a flying fuck? Empire is bad, no matter what "good" we may be doing. nt

[greenman3610]

12. religion

brings sweetness to the soul.

[No Elephants]

23. No religion teaches anyone to bury their daughter alive. Please see Reply # 26.

[Zoeisright]

58. Fanaticism does.

And plenty of religions are fanatical. They teach judgment and hatred. Witness the Spanish Inquisition and thousands of years of persecution brought on by religious zealots.

Religion hasn't done much good in the world, and has been responsible for most of the violence and horror.

[paulsby]

176. it's not responsible

it's been an excuse, since throughout most people WERE religious, therefore most evil was justified by (twisted) religion.

in the 20th century, there was PLENTY of evil (pol pot, stalin, etc.) done without any religious influence whatsoever.

religion is just an excuse that the evil used to commit evil.

the 20th century proved people just as capable of evil w/o any religion whatsoever.

[undeterred]

66. There is absolutely no suggestion that this had anything to do with religion

in the news article. So take your ax and grind it somewhere else.

[ejbr]

13. And there you have it,

proof that being known as someone who buried your daughter/granddaughter alive is less embarrassing than her being known as a "slut". :sarcasm:

[Quantess]

16. And such slutty behavior! Exchanging conversation with the opposite sex!

Such loose morals.

[No Elephants]

24. Meh. I'm betting she backtalked them and that was their real motive.

[Alcibiades]

15. That will show her!

That's some strict parenting. Bet she never does that again.

[wroberts189]

22. ..nothing "computes" here as you point out. I hope she is at peace. nt

[No Elephants]

17. So, you want to kill your own daughter, but you can't even do it mercifully?

FUCK the father and the grandfather, and the mother, too, if she enabled.

[panzerfaust]

18. At least the Family Honor was appropriately preserved

... by this accepted, indeed expected, traditional practice hallowed by an Ancient Non-Western (therefore Good, almost by definition?) Cultural Tradition.

Allah the Merciful, Allah the Just ... or, as God put it in His bestseller (1-Tim:2:11) "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission."

So, let that be a lesson ...

[No Elephants]

26. With all due respect, bullshit. How many women have been buried alive bc of 1 Timothy 2:11?

Or anything that Mohammed said? Or any religion? None of them teaches, let alone requires anything like this. And what you see in the Holy books that even hints at something like this was written by....men. And the clergy who embellished and expanded on such things? Men. This is about male female a lot more than it is about anything spiritual.

This was about men feeling that a young female relative was threatening their authority/macho. That has been punished since Neanderthals, and still is.

If you misdiagnse you mistreat. And, if you mistreat, you don't cure the sickness.

[Brickbat]

30. "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Granted, they weren't buried alive, but...

[whathehell]

167. ...And it WAS a few Centuries ago!.....Gotta remember that !

[panzerfaust]

38. How many women have been beaten and subjugated because of Timmy?

I make no claim for the specific (though there is no silence like that of the grave), but I do for the general ... which is that women are clearly disadvantaged by the basic teachings of all of the religions sprung of the misogynistic God of Abraham.

There are way too many verses to quote, so will just leave it to 1-Cor:11:9, which pretty well sums it up

Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Which, I agree, is bullshit - though it be the Holy Revealed Word of God.

[undeterred]

140. In the Genesis Creation story

the woman is a gift to the man, created to ease his loneliness. So "for" him doesn't necessarily mean she is in subjugation to him, although unfortunately its often interpreted that way.

[Chef Eric]

39. Of course this has more to do with misogyny than religion, but...

misogyny is often facilitated by religion. And have you ever noticed that, at least in contemporary western culture, misogyny is more intertwined with religious belief than it is with politics, or philosophy? That is because politics and philosophy have evolved over time more than religion has. I wouldn't be the least surprised if these murderers cited some sort of religious beliefs as an excuse for their crimes. We could talk about how such religious beliefs are only perversions of "true religion," but what is "true religion"? It is nothing more that what its practitioners make of it.

[Berry Cool]

47. Sexist people, resorting to religion as their excuse for their sexism.

Once again, religion is not the problem--it is simply being used here as a tool and an excuse for sexism and violence. These people did not do this because of their religion, they did it because they feel threatened by female freedom and religion is a handy justification for feeling that way. It's horrible.

[Zoeisright]

59. Oh please. Read through the Old Testament.

Women, girls, and children were repeatedly slaughtered and tortured by God's command. Wake up.

[whathehell]

169. Yes, .but the operative word here is "Old"

..and I don't just mean in terms of Testaments.

This sort of barbarism hasn't been an INSTITUTIONALIZED part of western culture for CENTURIES..Can you say "backwards" as well as brutal?

[Toasterlad]

74. Religion Provides a Shield For Misogyny, Homophobia, and Racism.

As such, it is an evil tool that should be removed from the world. Will that cure everything? No. But it will remove an excuse for those intent on engaging in evil acts.

[whathehell]

171. Some religions, Toaster, some!

You can hardly compare liberal Christianity, or even a religion like Buddhism, to Islamic Sharia law!

[TheMadMonk]

102. How about you correct that recto-cranial inversion and consider the simple fact....

...that the way a rational person and a fanatic, determined (and despertate) to protect his absolute patriarchal power interpret the same peice of writing might differ.

But even a rational interpretation holds the seeds of this sort of behaviour. An irrational/fanatical interpretation simply justifies it.


It's not just authority/power alone that prompts this sort of behaviour. It's an ownership issue and the diminished value of the daughter as property which can be used for making a valuable alliance with another family. Sullied she loses a good deal of value and in the terms of this sort of culture becomes a liability, both financial and social.


Ultimately it is down to religion, because it is religious writings and teachings which define women as property.


Women may or may not have been burried alive because of 1 Timothy 2:11. But a good many uncountable Christian women and girls have most certainly been beaten, forced into servitude, expelled from their families and killed for failing to be properly submissive; for falling pregnant outside of marriage; or for simply giving away that useless peice of skin that daddy had planned on trading away for his own personal gain.


Even allowing that the modern "nice" interpretations of the teachings of Christ & Mahomed are a true representations of these individual's intentions, the bald, unpallatable truth is that the vast majority of organised religious practices based around those teachings are anything but sweetness and light, and along with other less two faced religions, have been used as the justification for some of the most vile and abhorent behaviour in history.

[whathehell]

173. How 'bout correcting yours?...so you can stop trying so hard

to find some politically correct "equivalence" for this in western Judeo-Christian culture..It doesn't exist.

Culturally endorsed outrages like OP subject were outlawed CENTURIES ago in Christian cultures, if in fact they ever existed*....I'm sorry if that's not pc, but there's simply no equivalent to this "custom" in the modern western culture.


Yes, people were tried and executed for "sins" of different sorts, but to willingly, if not "gleefully", kill your own children? No, I don't think so.

[rasputin1952]

21. There is nothing quite like waking up to a horror story...

This is incredibly disturbing, and to attach this to any religion is even more offensive. I am often struck by the blatant stupidity of some people, those that would abuse those in their own families hold a special place in my mind, a place I do not like to go to, because I realize just how nasty a human being I could easily become if my emotions were the sole motivator in how I deal with things.

How can people come to the conclusion, in any way, shape or form that this was, somehow, "the right thing to do"? I used to say "culture" had something to do with this, but it goes against the very nature of humanity to commit such a horrid act. I hope the perpetrators live out their miserable lives in a state of utter remorse and have long lives of extreme poverty, excruciating pain and never ending suffering.

[wroberts189]

27. Admit it..you like a good dose of reality with your coffee. Lets you know where you stand.

I know I do.

[No Elephants]

29. Well then, good thing thing these men did this. Else the story would not have been here for you

to feel good about yourself over your morning coffee.

:wtf:

[wroberts189]

142. I never said anything about feeling good about it.

My point was I and a lot of others come here not wanting to see this but are attracted to know what is going on no matter how horrifying.

The same way people gawk at accidents on the road.

If your basement is flooding do you open the door to look or not?

[rasputin1952]

31. One thing I've learned in my relatively long stay on this planet...

Reality isn't all it's cracked up to be...:hi:

[wroberts189]

143. No it is not at all...and it has an irritating ability to force a person to face it.

I usually need a shot of Vodka after reading some of these horrifying things.

That usually numbs reality a bit. :)

[Violet_Crumble]

137. Couldn't agree more...

Also, for the many DUers who rushed into this thread to make this all about Muslims and Islam, the BBC has reported that it wasn't...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4257101&mesg_id=4258023

[No Elephants]

28. Poor, precious child.

[benld74]

32. What does THIS say about YOUR FAMILY HONOR NOW boys??!?!?!

[Blue_Tires]

34. holy DAMN... there are TWO HUNDRED of these a year in Turkey??

"Official figures have indicated that more than 200 such killings take place each year, accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/04/girl-buried-alive-turkey

And that's just the 'official' number??

At least the father taught his flesh and blood an important lesson out of love!
:sarcasm:

[seeinfweggos]

181. only 400 murders in the whole country in a year?

that can't be right.

[madrchsod]

35. did`t take long for some to blame religion.

if only things were so simple that it`s faults could be laid at the feet of religion

[panzerfaust]

41. I wonder if it could be because "Honor Killing" is, in fact, being done in the name of religion?

In the name of Islam in particular.

You might want to read “Honor Killing” is Absolutely Islamic!

by Syed Kamran Mirza



Or catch the movie.

[Berry Cool]

49. The religion is just an excuse for behavior they would engage in anyway,

religion or not. They want to exercise total control over women, so they use their religion as their "justification" for doing so. It's nonsense.

[rpannier]

60. Very True

The hatred/lack of empathy is already in place. It just needs an outlet/justification.

In the late 19th century, people perverted Darwin's research to justify their racism.
Before and after, we've seen religion, nationalism, etc used to justify it.

If these people (and I use that term loosely) didn't have religion to turn to, they'd have found some other convenient excuse

[provis99]

182. nonsense. Palestinian and Lebanese Christians do honor killings, also.

It's cultural, not religious. But religion is evil, anyways.

[Deep13]

36. .

:banghead:

[Odin2005]

37. There are no words...

:cry:

[anachro1]

43. That girl

dared open her mouth. She had it coming. (sarcasm)

[Beacool]

44. Just when I think that nothing can shock me anymore, I'm proven wrong.

What kind of beasts do this to their own child???????

May her father and grandfather suffer her same fate.

:cry:

[MARALE]

45. It makes me wonder about the relationship between the Father and Child

If this was some type of jealousy and that he thinks any girl in his family is his. It makes me wonder if there is more to these staries. If the man thinks he owns these children, and can do what he wants with them like kill them, then what else does he think he can do with a 16 year old girl??

[Captain Hilts]

46. And how were the boys punished? Oh, right. Never mind. nt

[architect359]

48. Not the boys fault nor the girl's in this matter!

It's her own family members that are at fault.

[Toasterlad]

71. So...You'd Be Cool With This If the BOYS Were Buried Alive As Well?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scout]

138. anytime posters preface a "question" with "So..."

you can be pretty sure their motives are not on the up and up.

and learn the concept of "implication" right back at ya' laddy.

:hi:

[Ganja Ninja]

50. Gimme that old time religion. n/t

[undeterred]

65. There is absolutely no suggestion that this had anything to do with religion

in the news article. So take your ax and grind it somewhere else.

[leftynyc]

80. You can sing that song

all fucking day long. Nobody is buying it.

[undeterred]

106. The bigotry of the left is still bigotry.

[leftynyc]

109. Bigotry?

Acknowledging this was a result of a bastardization of religion is bigotry? Only in the minds of people who want to excuse this kind of shit.

[undeterred]

111. Who called this a bastardization of religion?

The post I replied to called it "old time religion".

[leftynyc]

119. No, it's not

Read back and see where the conversation started. Someone said religion had nothing to do with it - that's where this subthread started.

[Ganja Ninja]

81. I see fit to grind it here.

Just because the article doesn't mention religion doesn't mean there's no connection. These honor killings don't happen in secular societies.

[dugaresa]

52. i have an honest question, why hasn't Islam abolished this "cultural" practice

is it because it benefits the religion? or because they don't care?

Many cultural practices are absorbed into religious practice, for instance Christmas is a hybrid of the Winter Solstice festivals of the european pagans blended with religion to appease the masses.

In this case honor killing can be traced to antiquity, and most cultures have at one point practiced it. However it seems more prevalent in households that follow the Islamic faith in the cases that occur to day, and why is that? Islam which as been prevalent in Turkey for at least 1100 years has not wiped out this practice? Why not?

Female Genital Mutilation and honor killing are both cultural practices that are followed by predominately Muslim households, why have they not been eradicated? If Imans 1000 years ago started preaching, "this is a shame to Allah", I am sure that these cultural practices would have been smothered but yet they exist today and I can't help but think that these practices are accepted and perhaps even encouraged.

I finish by stating that all religions have their problems and sick practices so I am not picking on the Muslim faith in general. Western culture greatly benefited from the Islamic faith and their Golden Age, it is just too sad that it is in the state it is today. What stood to be one of the most liberal of faiths of its time has splintered into some very fundamentalist factions and that is sad.

[WriteDown]

53. Easy answer. Islam is the last major religion where any man can be a KING...

in his own home no matter how poor he is. Women are meant to tend to a man's every need and be subservient.

[Jkid]

55. That is a good question...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. For one thing, there is no "Islam Central" that can make rulings for all Muslims

There is no Muslim pope.

[U4ikLefty]

152. b-b-but I thought all of them Muslims were the same.

just in case :sarcasm:

[undeterred]

170. Abolish it?

Turkey is a secular society. What the relatives did to this girl was considered murder and it is against the civil law. The relatives who did this will be prosecuted. Perhaps that will be a deterrent. It is also against Islamic law, which has no legal force in Turkey.

The story also said that the girl had reported being beaten to the police. I have no idea what the legal/social infrastructure in Turkey is like, but I'm going to take a guess that they don't have a regular process for removing children from the home when they are in danger from their parents. I'm going to take a guess that they don't have shelters for battered women. Its probably very difficult for women and girls to get out of a bad home situation.

Other articles on this incident have said that its part of a code or tribal custom used by a population that is "backward" to the point of living in a twelfth century mentality.

How does one change such a thing? The groups that do this are not taking orders from a religion, but following a code their group has practiced for centuries. Coming into contact with the broader culture which is horrifed by this probably helps a bit, but its still going to be rough for women until the patriarchal mentality which considers all females to be "property" is changed.

[Toasterlad]

54. Yay, Religion!

It brings so much love and joy to the world!

[undeterred]

67. There is absolutely no suggestion that this had anything to do with religion

in the news article. So take your ax and grind it somewhere else.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jkid]

56. How honorable is murder?

Nothing.

Kick and rec.

[Zoeisright]

57. Human beings are so primitive and backward.

Christ, it's no wonder we're headed for extinction.

[D23MIURG23]

61. Disgusting.

[KansDem]

62. Turkey? Turkey? Now why does that country ring a bell? OH, YEAH!!!

Dennis Hastert now lobbies for them!

Hastert to lobby for Turkey

By Paul Merrion
April 10, 2009

(Crain’s) — Former Speaker of the House J. Dennis Hastert, R-Plano, is now lobbying for the Republic of Turkey, according to papers filed last week with the Justice Department’s Foreign Agents Registration Act unit.

His role is “educating members of the Congress and the administration on issues of importance to Turkey,” his registration statement said. Those issues include “trade, energy security, counter-terrorism efforts and efforts to build regional stability in the broader Middle East.”

Turkey is a key U.S. ally in the region, as evidenced by President Barack Obama’s stop there earlier this week after his European tour.

But one thorny issue is a perennial attempt by Congress to pass a resolution condemning the Turks’ killing of 1.5 million Armenians during the 1915-1916 “genocide.” The Turkish government has warned that such a resolution would seriously damage relations. When Mr. Hastert was speaker, he blocked such a measure after a last-minute request from then-President Bill Clinton.

Dickstein Shapiro LLP, the Washington, D.C., law firm Mr. Hastert joined in June 2008 as a senior advisor, has counted Turkey among its clients since last year. It was not known when he joined the firm whether Mr. Hastert would lobby for Turkey.

Mr. Hastert and others at Dickstein Shapiro share a $35,000-per-month subcontract with the Gephardt Group, led by former House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt, D-Mo., Turkey’s principal lobbyist since last year, according to The Hill, a Washington, D.C.-based publication that first reported Mr. Hastert’s involvement.

Mr. Hastert did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=33649

It doesn't surprise me that Republicans love to assist the religiously insane.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. To be fair, I know people who have visited Turkey, and they have all

been surprised at how un-Islamic the cities were.

The government is secular.

[mainer]

85. A country where headscarves are banned for government employees

Yes, its own constitution mandates that it be secular.

Turkey is far more liberal and progressive than most Americans realize.

This family just sounds like they were screwed up. Here in the US we have cases of fanatical religious nuts killing their own family members too. It doesn't mean we're all crazy-eyed fundamentalists.

[KansDem]

90. I agree, however...

I remember during the Terri Schiavo debacle how the GOP congressional leaders called a special session to pass legislation to keep feeding her when her husband wanted her feeding tube removed.

Republican leaders in the House of Representatives, including Speaker Dennis Hastert of Illinois, Tom DeLay of Texas and Tom Davis of Virginia, opened a congressional inquiry of the House Government Reform Committee, which was to take place in Clearwater on March 25, and issued subpoenas for Terri and Michael Schiavo and several hospice workers. Because of her condition, Terri Schiavo obviously would not have been able to testify; however, the subpoena gave her federal protection as a prospective witness, as it is a federal crime to prevent a person from testifying before Congress. Greer opted to ignore the subpoenas, telling congressional attorneys over a conference call "I have had no cogent reason why the (congressional) committee should intervene." <14> This was upheld by the Florida Supreme Court.<15> Although Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Sen. Rick Santorum, and Rep. Tom Delay, brought the possibility of sanctioning Greer on charges of Contempt of Congress, Congress did not attempt to enforce the subpoenas <16> or take any action against Greer.<17>

On March 21, Congress passed a bill, S.686, that allowed Schiavo's case to be moved into a federal court. The controversial law is colloquially known as the Palm Sunday Compromise. It passed the Senate on Sunday afternoon unanimously, 3-0, with 97 of 100 Senators not present. Meanwhile, in the House of Representatives, deliberation ran from 9pm EST to just past midnight during an unusual Sunday session.<18> The bill was passed 203-58 (156 Republicans and 47 Democrats in favor, 5 Republicans and 53 Democrats against), with 174 Representatives (74 Republicans and 100 Democrats) not present on the floor at the time of the vote at 12:41 a.m. EST. President Bush returned from vacation in Crawford, Texas to sign the bill into law at 1:11 that morning.<19>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_involvement_in_the_Terri_Schiavo_case

...and we have a "secular government" that happened to be pandering to the fundies. I suppose we should wait and see how Turkey's secular government handles their religious fanatics...

[BuddhaGirl]

191. yes, Turkey is secular

but it is not really liberal or progressive...the suppression of it's minority population, Armenians, still exists today, to some degree. My ex is Armenian, born and raised in Istanbul. His family still publishes the oldest, continually published Armenian newspaper, and they still must be very careful of what they print.

[KansDem]

92. I agree...

I was a bit overly dramatic. I have a daughter who turns 18 next week and cannot believe what this father did.

Please see post no. 98.

We saw how our government once pandered to fundies...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. Turkey is actually resisting its fundamentalists

n/t

[grahamhgreen]

63. Why are we fighting for an Islamic republic in Afghanistan, again?

[undeterred]

64. That'll teach her.

:sarcasm:

[treestar]

68. This is an evil crime

It can happen anywhere - it does not reflect on every single person of any particular religion or Turkish nationality.

[tinrobot]

69. How is this different than the Mom who drowned her own kids...

...in the bathtub? Or the one who drove them into the lake?

There are psychopaths of every race, creed, gender, and color. This family is psychopathic, plain and simple.

Just because this insane murderous family live in a certain place or worship a certain god doesn't mean that everyone who lives in that place or worships that god is also an insane murderer. Let's not spread stereotypes here...

[Jennicut]

72. The mother with the kids in the bathtub had post partum depression.

And her husband wanted to keep having more kids despite her mental state from the previous child. Totally different issues.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

158. Not totally different. Both related to fundamentalist religion.

Andrea Yates and her hubby followed a crackpot fundy xtian inister who thought they should have lots of kids too close together.

[WriteDown]

165. Do tell....

What is too close?

[Name removed]

73. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal_in_LA]

75. sick. Horrifying!

[DonCarnage]

83. Why is everyone so surprised?

I have lived on this planet since I was born. I think everyone here can say the same except for a very few people who are wearing tin foil hats right now. This story, admittedly horrible and disguting to anyone with a soul, is only the latest of the long, long, long list of evil acts done in the name of a person's culture. I do not see the need to turn this into a self-righteous political debate either about one's political party or about religion. I know many religious conservatives that would vomit at this story. People do horrible things. It can be based on
anything. Religion, Politics, Race, Tribalsim, For the Common Good have all been excuses and
reasons to kill, maim, steal, rape. The only cure has been open democracy and equal secular law
based on common morality often originating through religion. Sometimes it works, try it! Horrible and terrible stories just like this or worse have been coming from every corner of the world,
including your own neighborhoods, since you were born! From a drunken mother drowning a crying
baby who won't be quiet to high school students tossing new babies into dumpsters to Saudi's
forcing girls back into a burning schools to die because they ran out without veils, to the
tribal rape and murder in Ethiopia, the Congo, and Darfur.

This is a sad and terrible story and I am glad that the government of Turkey is moving to
punish the family. (The father might have done the shoveling but I don't hear that the Mom
ran to get the police.) But please, lets not blame all of this insanity on Religion or insult
eachother's political views. People are as they want to be and use Religion, Politics, etc as
reasons for their behavior. Nazis, Jihaddists, Murderers, Thugs simply LIKE to kill. They
twist their reasons. You cannot always blame the parent for the child or the culture/religion
for the person.

[NoSheep]

162. Congratulations! DonCarnage has "lived on this planet since (he) was born!"

[AzNick]

86. Usually not a partisan of "do the same to the murderer" but... hmmm ... thinking about it?

[The Straight Story]

87. Just like christians do here all the time - I learned that on DU

I am scared of my sister now, I am sure she is planning on killing me for making a joke about Jesus.

[Crowman1979]

88. Hopefully Turkey will stamp out the spread of Saudi Wahhabism.

Luckily it's confined to the rural areas, for now.

[sui generis]

89. proof that we're not descended from apes

apes wouldn't do that.

I fucking hate religion in all its forms, and I'd bet my life any two thousand year old prophet would too, by now.

[Ed76638]

91. This is all about the shame and fear produced by religion.

[tinrobot]

108. The article makes no mention of religion.

[anonymous171]

117. Honor killings are more about tribalism than religion

You don't see western muslims doing this.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Yes, you do see it in the West.

[anonymous171]

121. In 1st generation immigrant populations, yes. But not with 2nd and 3rd.

If the problem was truly religious then every muslim (even western muslim converts) would be murdering their children to preserve their "honor"

[Behind the Aegis]

122. That's not what you said.

Move your goalposts back and your statement was incorrect.

"If the problem was truly religious then every muslim (even western muslim converts) would be murdering their children to preserve their "honor""

That's a HUGE logical fallacy. This is actually more about fundamentalism extremist behavior as opposed to religious values.

[anonymous171]

126. Whoah. Why so defensive? If it is about fundamentalism then it is about religion.

I am simply saying that it is not about religion, as evidenced by the lack of honor killings among the Western muslims (immigrants and natives alike.)

[Behind the Aegis]

127. Not defensive at all. That's your take.

It is about religion being perverted to an extreme. And, there is not a lack of honor killings among Western Muslims. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't become fact.

[undeterred]

177. Prosecution helps.

Are there any "Western Muslims" who do not live in countries where they would be severely punished for murder, even an honor killing?

[provis99]

183. yes, among Christians in Albania and Sicily also, not just Muslims.

[snagglepuss]

156. Actually honour killings in Europe and the UK are a problem.

[mn9driver]

93. The Religiously Insane

Hopefully she was the only offspring that this couple will ever produce.

[madmax]

94. To one extent or another I believe all religions

have been bastardized by men seeking control, power and riches.

[jberryhill]

128. Several Major Religions Are Based On A Man Willing To Kill His Infant Son /nt

[spoony]

161. Based on?

Might want to warm up before you stretch like that ;)

[jberryhill]

180. That is their foundational story, yes

The story of the three major monotheistic religions starts with the deity revealing himself to a particular individual who demonstrated his committment to that deity by preparing to kill his son.

Judaism and Islam differ as to the identity of the favored son, and Christianity interprets the incident as an archetype of the deity's ultimate similar sacrifice for the purpose of universalizing the franchise of the father. But all three are ultimately identified as the "Abrahamic" faiths. The faith of Abraham is the common denominator of all three - which endorse his infanticidal inclination as a sign of his great faith.

[undeterred]

129. Men bastardize lots of things besides religion.

[Arugula Latte]

168. Hell, that's probably the ORIGIN of most religions.

Consolidating power and wealth for a few chosen men

(Obviously the goddess-based religions and a few others don't fall under that category.)

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

100. Christianity is also

an Abrahamic religion. I wonder why you ignored that.

[jberryhill]

101. Because of the apparent fact

...this story ran in Haaretz for a reason.

[leftynyc]

103. A different reason

than the Guardian, or the Huffington Post, or the BBC, etc...?

[jberryhill]

105. I saw it here

Unlike Sarah Palin, I do not read all of the newspapers.

If your point is that there are also culturally backwards Christians then, sure, I apologize for leaving out that group of jerks also.

[Blue Owl]

99. Why would a parent sacrifice over 16 years of their life

raising a child only to have it end like this?

Unfathomable.

[dustbunnie]

104. In some cases it's for financial gain through shrewdly arranged marriages, etc.

In other cases, they just pump out the kids. This family had nine.

Plus, the girl had already complained of beatings to police three times, so in their minds, part of it was done with self-preservation in mind - her or them.

This family lives in south eastern Turkey so they're ignorant villagers, probably Kurdish... not particularly renowned for their progressive ways.

[proteus_lives]

114. Disgusting.

The father and grandfather should be imprisoned for the rest of their lives or if they like religious justice so much, cut their heads off.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rhiannon12866]

125. How inhuman!

;(

[IndianaGreen]

130. Religion at work!

Monotheistic religions in particular have an intolerance streak in them.

[Green_Lantern]

134. according to th BBC this wasn't religiously motivated

But while it is true that most such killings are carried out in conservative Muslim communities, the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief.

When girls or women are deemed to have stained the family honour, by behaviour as innocent as simply talking to boys, there is strong peer pressure from the community on the male members of the family to restore their honour, say groups working on the issue in the south-east.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8501181.stm

[Toasterlad]

136. So Why Is Talking to Boys Taboo?

I'd find it VERY hard to believe that this ludicrous custom isn't founded in religion.

[Green_Lantern]

139. it predates Islam....

Honor killings didn't start with Islam.

[Toasterlad]

141. What's the Reason Talking To Boys Is Wrong?

[hayu_lol]

145. Shia law is growing throughout Islam including Turkey...

which Turkey by the way, attempts to stop. The cities are quite modern and so are the people. The boondock villages throughout Islam continue to encourage the practice of honor killings encouraged by their fundementalism and archaic thought. The tribal chief is the final word...and it was one of these who ordered the killing.

Something similar happened in Pakistan several years ago. A young girl walked back to her village with a young boy. They were unaccompanied by any of her male relatives. Father took the problem to the tribal chief who decided, in council, to send 5 men out to rape the girl as punishment. Honor killing/rape or something based loosely on a religious teaching from an ancient religion.

As various statements in this thread stated...this happens in the outback(those primitive villages)where ancient values--religious in nature--are still in force.

What is frustrating to westerners is that there is literally nothing we can do to help the women in that part of the world. Western thought in that part of the world has little or no credibility.

[barb162]

146. Daddy and Gramps just don't like it

and think they have the tight to kill people over it. Sick bastards.

[snagglepuss]

155. If it predates Islam why doesn't the Koran specifically address this outrage

and prohibit it in no uncertain terms. How is it that the Koran so clearly prohibits eating pork but doesn't clearly prohibit honour killing?

[provis99]

184. actually, the Koran expressly forbids this kind of killing.

Read the Koran before you blather.

[snagglepuss]

190. It can hardly be explicit, if it were explicit it would not be so common.

Dietary restrictions are explicit. Go anywhere in the world and Muslims don't eat pork. No Muslim on earth would ever say "eating pork is customary in our part of the world so we eat pork". Nor would other Muslims ever rationalize that behaviour saying that Muslims who eat pork are simply uneducated.

[Green_Lantern]

192. Well I think alot of times...

Practicioners of religion will mix cultural or tribal traditions with universal teachings of a religion. Not eating pork is pretty universal.

[snagglepuss]

193. Not eating pork is not at all universal . Only Judaism and Islam forbid pork.

[barb162]

144. The BBC reporter is a sociologist?

How the hell does he know.

[northofdenali]

148. Are these "people"(??) even human? n/t

[barb162]

149. "The Dynamics of Honor Killings in Turkey"

written by the United Nations Development Programme in Ankara Turkey
http://www.unfpa.org/upload/lib_pub_file/676_filename_honourkillings.pdf

A great piece...longish, but quite insightful.

And might I add, down with patriarchy, misogyny, sexism, etc., in all of their disgusting manifestations.

Thank you, BTA, for posting this article.

[Ken Burch]

151. From the BBC article on this tragic event:

"The town is known for being very conservative and religious; it is a stronghold of the once powerful Naksibendi Islamic sect, which was banned by modern Turkey's founding father Ataturk in 1925 but has revived in recent years.

But while it is true that most such killings are carried out in conservative Muslim communities, the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief." (emphasis added)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8501181.stm

[undeterred]

153. Yours is the third link to this article in this thread...

but people are too caught up in the religion bashing to read it.

[slackmaster]

159. Killing girls for being girls seems like a pretty stupid tradition

It's ulitmately self-defeating for any culture that practices it.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Prometheus Bound]

178. The BBC is more subtle in its anti-Islamic bias.

They mention the killings are linked more to culture than religion, but they manage to slip in the bit about the town being a stronghold of the "Naksibendi Islamic sect".

[tblue37]

154. As though murdering her wasn't enough to satisfy their f*ing male "honor."

They had to make sure she suffered as much terror and torture as possible before the final release of death!

[Prometheus Bound]

157. Could Islam help us against honor killings?

.....The truth is, yes, honor killings in Turkey are a problem mostly of the Kurdish population, for the latter is still under the influence of tribalism and all the related patriarchal codes. But this is neither an inherent characteristic of the Kurdish people, nor a conspiracy cooked up against them by the Turkish authorities.

The problem is the topography of historical Kurdistan. It is a very mountainous region, which is inhospitable to trade routes, railways and highways. Hence its inhabitants have lived almost isolated from the outside world for centuries and have remained largely untouched by modernity. The same is also true for the ill-famed “tribal areas” of Pakistan, which is, again, very mountainous.

.....I rather think that honor killings exist because not just modernity but also Islam could not penetrate enough into the patriarchal cultures of the Middle East.

Let me explain. Of course, Islam, like other Abrahamic religions, has laws and punishments about sexual morality. The Koran, for example, criminalizes adultery, and thus Islamic law, or the shariah, has developed a system of regulating how it will be penalized. I personally have reformist views on this (for example I am totally against stoning, which is a part of the classical shariah) but that is another matter. What matters here is that honor killings go against even the most conservative interpretations of the shariah.

Why? Well, because while the Koran defines adultery as a crime, it holds both the female and the male equally responsible for it. But have you ever seen a man killed for “honor?” I haven’t. What I have rather seen is that while women are being killed, beaten or at least humiliated for extra-marital relationships, men are often congratulated by their male friends for their “virility.”

In the face of this hypocritical male-domination, the Koran actually tried to protect women by penalizing false accusations of adultery brought against them. Unless there were “four eye witnesses” who saw the actual intercourse, no women could be accused of adultery, and those who spread rumors about her would be flogged.

So, if the shariah were applied to the situation of the 16-year-old girl who was buried alive by her relatives, it was the latter who should have been punished for bringing false accusations of adultery.

More: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=could-islam-help-us-against-honor-killings-2010-02-05

[undeterred]

160. "honor killings go against even the most conservative interpretations of the shariah"

Thanks for bringing some light to this thread.

[whathehell]

172. The "four eyewittnesses" requirement

is now interpreted as being needed by WOMEN to file a legitimate claim of rape!

[superconnected]

185. As usual, I'm horrified that humans can do this to another humans.

[TexasObserver]

188. recommend

[yellowwood]

189. So Awful

But we don't have moral control over all the world. What bothers me a lot more is our moral responsibility for the many girls (and boys) who were buried in dirt--by the bombs that we've paid for.

When we were bombing Bagdhad, we were actually told the lie that they were "smart bombs" which only targeted the bad guys. There was a lot of cheerleading for the war going on then.

The girls and boys that we bury in rubble with the bombs that we buy are the ones we should be oohing and aahing about. Moraity begins at home.

[BreweryYardRat]

195. "Eye for an eye" time.

Wonder how long the father and grandfather can hold their breath?

[NoodleyAppendage]

196. Solution to Middle East Problem: Provide Automatic Weapons to ALL Women only.

It's high time that the oppressive patrimony of Islamic cultures be overturned by force. Put women on equal or better footing in those cultures and a lot of our problems would be solved. Frankly...do the same over here too!

J