Socialists Claim Victory in Spain Election

[FlashHarry]

Reuters/Yahoo! link here

I know this has its own thread, but I thought this headline warranted a thread of its own. Mods, delete as necessary.

<snip>
MADRID (Reuters) - Opposition Socialists claimed victory in Spain's general election on Sunday as voters apparently punished the government over Madrid bombings that may have been retaliation by al Qaeda for the Iraq (news - web sites) war.

"It's a victory," senior Socialist official Jose Blanco told cheering supporters in Madrid. "The Spanish Socialist Working Party is ready to take charge of government in Spain."

Official results showed the Socialists leading the ruling center-right Popular Party by 43 percent to 37.5 percent with 85 percent of votes counted.

Voters, many wearing the black ribbon symbols of national grief since Thursday's attack, turned out in numbers well above the last election in 2000 amid an angry debate over who was behind the bombings -- al Qaeda or Basque separatists.
</snip>

[Flagg]

1. you're fired Aznar

Dumbya you're next

[Zomby Woof]

19. Aznar wasn't running

But at least his party lost.

[Simard]

80. Good news. . . excellent sentiment

[XanaDUer]

102. You volatile old thing you!

;)

[rumguy]

2. egg on bush*'s face

just think, a major part of his "coalition of the willing" is no longer so willing...

[Postman]

3. how much "sway" does the US have in blackmailing them?

economically?

[FlashHarry]

4. That'll happen when 90% of the electorate oppose the war.

I think that figure is correct. I seem to remember 90% of Spaniards opposing Aznar's pro-war stance. Of course, I could be wrong...

[Ekova]

5. I believe 90% is the correct number.

[FlashHarry]

13. Egg? I could have sworn it was the blood of innocents.

:)

[UTUSN]

6. LOL, the Faux Talking Heads are EXPLODING!

They are claiming:

1) That a vote against AZNAR is a vote FOR Al Qaeda.

2) That any U.S. companies investing in Spain ought to expect a 20% drop in worth.

3) That this is a victory for APPEASEMENT.

Haha.

The Spanish Ambassador said there would be NO change in friendliness to the U.S., that 8 yrs ago the Socialist Party was in power and enjoyed GOOD relations with the U.S. (Uh, that would be under President CLINTON.) That the new government would not ad hoc withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq, but wants a new resolution from the U.N. All of 1,500 Spanish troops.

It's fun to see the Faux heads exploding.

[FlashHarry]

8. Are so-called 'anchors' saying this, or just the pundits?

I admit, I don't have the 'bottle' to switch channels and see. If the anchors are saying it, then it pretty much buries the 'fair and balanced' meme.

[TheWebHead]

11. anchors=pundits

though the weekend crew is a little greener... The fangs will be unleashed on Monday's full-time lineup. I feel like e-mailing all of them insisting IRAQ does not equal "WAR ON TERROR", but I'm sure they've received their marching orders (ie. The Memo) from Ailes.

[NeoConsSuck]

15. Fuck Fox

and congrats to the Spanish people for showing what a true democracy looks like.

Ah, it must be nice to live in a country where 65%+ aren't sheeple.

[Joanne98]

18. They're so mad, they're seething and depressed.

Poor Fox. Didn't the people of Spain listen to what they had to say. RW proganda not working? What's happening? Oh no.:)

[0007]

32. A true reflection of the White House

When the WH is seething and depressed, so is FAUX -
I love it!!

[sam7]

33. Doesn't it concern anyone here

That an Al Queda attack has successfully effected the outcome of an election? And does anyone think that this is the last election he'll try to effect?

[0rganism]

35. Are you kidding? This is a sign that the attack had much LESS effect!

Go back a few days, and read the posts, we were quite concerned that terrorism could put additional rightwing morons in office.

I'm far more concerned with the effect Al Qaeda's attack had on our 2002 elections. In America, when Al Qaeda attacks us, we install fascists to make the situation that much worse for everyone around the world. In Spain, apparently most of the 90% who opposed bush's invasion of Iraq despite Aznar's "me-too" support stuck to their guns despite any impulse to cave in to fight-flight instincts.

I predict the new Spanish government will be a much kinder and safer one.

[sam7]

54. So what are you saying ?

That either that Al Queda had no intent to sway the election even though their video specifically says the bombing was intended to punish Spain for its support of the war and when it happened 3 days before an important election? Or that they did want to effect the election but they wanted a right wing government?

[NV1962]

67. This is just *SO* wrong that I don't know where to begin...

It reminds me of what I saw on TV this evening. Early this evening, on the local affiliate of NBC, the "local" anchor introduced as follows a "packaged" item from NBC studios in NYC, about the elections result in Spain: “in Spain, voters expressed their anger at America in the ballot box.”

I was so steaming hot, I got on the phone and called the news editor in chief on duty and gave him an earful.

To begin with, the 1,500 troops in Iraq (and the exposure to attacks, that killed several Spanish soldiers - plus two teams of the intelligence agency) were already factored into the 5% lead that all polls in Spain gave to Aznar's PP.

The attacks themselves had only directly an impact in that it massively boosted voter turnout: from 76% in 1996, down to 68% in 2000, up to a whopping 77% yesterday.

The attacks did not directly influence the vote.

What happened is that police early on found evidence that strongly suggested ties to fundamentalist terrorism, instead of ETA. Government knew that. It shared the lines of investigation and evidence with PSOE under the condition of secrecy (as is done in the US too, e.g. in the House intelligence committee) so PSOE knew, too, that the insistent pinning the blame on ETA as "prime" suspect was bogus.

Then, news of the van (and the 7 copper detonator caps + the tape with Koran verses) broke publicly; a day later, the news of the detentions broke which made it all the more clear that Al Q'aida was the "prime" suspect. Government officials urged foreign correspondents to report that ETA was a prime suspect, when internationally eyes already were on Al Q'aida; El País wrote an article about that Gov't pressure on foreign media journalists.

All this time, Spaniards are fed "ETA probably did it." All this time, Government was hammering that ETA was "probably it" - and explained it logically by referring to 30+ years terrorism, so why should it surprise that ETA is suspected...

That's what overflowed the cup of patience. PSOE decided to issue a press release, stating that it knew where the investigation was going, and that Government was "playing politics with information on the investigation" - diplomatically accusing Government of manipulating (lieing) by suggesting that ETA probably did it, when it was known to be much more likely that they weren't involved, at least not directly.

That news spread like wildfire: Spaniards took to the streets -- not only in Madrid, in many other cities too -- and protested in the night before election day, in front of the (local) HQ of the conservative party, demanding an end to manipulation.

That is what caused the overnight shift, from 5% in the lead to losing by 5%, a not insignificant swing of 10%.

It was Government's manipulation of news (of the investigations) in the wake of the attacks what did them in.

That's not the terrorists winning: we voted massively to show that we love our Democracy more than their bombs.

That's not the "capitalizers on the opportunity" of terrorism winning, either: even overnight, we recognized a blatant attempt to score an election win over 200 cadavers, so we sent 'em packing.

Now, follow our lead! ;)

[Barkley]

85. Great post and analysis -- thanks n/t!

[July]

94. Excellent summary, may I add

that another part of the manipulation that came out and angered the people was Ana Palacio's (foreign minister, I think) memorandum to diplomats pushing the ETA story.

[NV1962]

103. Do you happen to have a link?

To an English language source mentioning the Ana Palacio memo?

[demigoddess]

69. This is a sign that an attack or propaganda campaign

based on fear can have the opposite effect than anticipated. I applaud the Spanish people and now I understand why * and others were urging the spanish government to stand firm rather than offering their condolances on the loss of 200 of their citizens.

[truthspeaker]

90. Aznar's RESPONSE to the attack affected the outcome of the election

[Heyo]

100. Yeah, that concerns me....

The popular party was the favorite to win before the bombing...

Wether you think it's al-quaeda or some other islamic fundamental nutcases...and regardless of what you think of either of Spains parties... the election result was probably a direct result of the bombing. An emotional reaction.

Whoever did these bombings has just claimed a victory that Spain just handed to them. I would feel different about it if the socialists were favored to win before the bombings.

Yeah, I'm sure they will try this again, and a lot of people will die becuase of it. Unfortunate.

Heyo

[Lorien]

39. The Faux anchor/pundits

always believe that when it comes to putting out a fire, gasoline is best! :grr:

[AndyP]

7. THey want change

we'll soon be next to kick out our failure.
One thing I've noticed on Fox news is that they keep saying that "the terrorists have won" saying that since they bombed the trains that the people changed their minds and voted the other way. They keep saying that they bombed because AQ wanted to get back at them for the war on terror. Didn't the note say that it was because of Iraq. Anyone else pick up this blatent spin?

[Joanne98]

9. One down three to go

Bush Co better find a new source of income.:)

[jrthin]

10. Shouldn't the lap-dog poodle, Blair,

be shaking in his pants?

[playahata1]

20. More like....

SHITTING in his pants. :)

[diamond14]

12. standing with international terrorist bush* will get you un-elected...

that's the clear message from WE THE PEOPLE of Spain....

blair should pay attention....as well should bush*

WE THE PEOPLE do not want war....we STAND UP for peace....

time to send the whole bush* cabal, and all their world-wide cohorts back to the farms....

GO KERRY....beat bush*
www.JohnKerry.com

[FlashHarry]

14. BBC: Spanish government admits defeat

link here

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

34. whats interesting in that story

...is how the Aznar govt. tried to pin this on ETA...which was an attempt to politicize the attack.

[dArKeR]

16. I hate this. I hope the terrible bombing had nothing to do with the loss.

Rajoy should be voted out by the Spanish people's knowledge of the issues. This really upsets me that terrorists or terrorism could be able to alter the minds of honest people.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

17. I was going to ask about this too

Should the Spanish govt had claimed it was al-queda so quickly? do they know for sure it was al-queda? aren't they still investigating?

secondly if the spanish people were so unhappy with aznar wouldn't he have been ousted anyway?

[Zomby Woof]

22. you can't oust someone not running

[mobuto]

36. The Spanish Gov't

got in trouble, not because they blamed Al Qaeda but because they reflexively blamed ETA for political reasons, and then were forced to sheepishly admit that it actually was Al Qaeda's fault. Apparently all the evidence now suggests that Al Qaeda was to blame.

aren't they still investigating?


Of course they are.

secondly if the spanish people were so unhappy with aznar wouldn't he have been ousted anyway?

Aznar wasn't running. His party had been leading in the polls up until the bombing, however.

[Zomby Woof]

21. again

Aznar was not running, so he didn't lose, just his potential successor.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

24. Right. That's what I meant. Just wasn't thinking. Forgiven now?

[Zomby Woof]

27. um

Nothing to forgive - just getting the facts out there.

[dArKeR]

25. thanks for correcting me ZW. Rajoy not Aznar.

[Zomby Woof]

26. no prob

Don't mean to be persnickety, but LBN demands accuracy. :-)

[dArKeR]

65. I guess it's evidence how bad/uninformed the press are. I've read

several stories saying 'Aznar' you're out. And like a Zombie Wolf, I copied and wasn't paying attention.

[annagull]

23. Looks like Spainiards don't trust Aznar to get to the truth

Outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and his wife were booed and jostled as they arrived to cast their votes.

As he tried to address supporters, he was drowned out by cries of "manipulators", "liars" and "peace".

Mr Rajoy - who was to have succeeded Mr Aznar if their Popular Party (PP) was returned to office - was also forced to find cover after youths hurled abuse as he voted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3511280.stm

[Philosophy]

28. I'll bet the CIA is already working on a coup

Fighting against state socialism is way better for BFEE business than hunting for terrorists in smelly caves.

[AP]

31. Do you think our taxes will have to go up to finance all the subterfuge?

It seems like there are more and more places that will need NED attention in the next fiscal year.

[mobuto]

38. More Wes Clark conspiracy theories

Yeah I'm sure Wes Clark, Dick Holbrooke, Greg Meeks, and Evan Bayh are out to take over the world.

Is there a limit to this inanity?

[AP]

47. denier

It's OK to disagree. And it's nice to debate. But this mode of argument is just straight up denial.

[mobuto]

48. You say I'm in denial

because I'm somewhat skeptical that an organization led by Dick Holbrooke, Wes Clark, Greg Meeks and other persons I hold in somewhat high regard would overthrow the center-left Spanish Government?

Am I missing something?

[AP]

57. No. I'm saying you deny the neoliberal project by painting it with

abroad brush, and then dismissing the entire thing as absurd.

There's a lot to talk about, and pretending that it's all about your simple discripition doesn't get at it the root of it at all.

Furthermore I note that filled a lot of meaning into my simple statement that the budget for intrigue is going to go up next year thanks to developments in the last couple weeks.

Did I say anything about Clark overthrowing the government of Spain? No I did not.

[Voltaire99]

29. A bitter victory, but a victory

What a pity that this triumph has come out of such tragedy and sorrow. But how much worse if Spain had remained under the rule of Aznar - that would truly have been to heap insult upon injury.

The world is better today, as it is any day free people renounce corporate fascism and embrace socialism. Congratulations to Zapatero for relieving Spain of its right wing curse. Let the healing begin.

[bluedog]

30. Congratulations Spain....

I wish to congratulate Spain, in the middle of a national tragedy, they saw fit to continue on courageously, following the path of democracy, and voting so short a time after such a time of horror.

They showed us the will of the people will not be ruled by fear.but by uniting and standing up for their beliefs....

[CerealMurderer]

37. continue on courageously?

How does voting the way the bombers intended lend one to think the voters are going to continue on courageously? It looks like they are not going to "continue on" with anything and intend to follow the political path that the bombers wanted them to follow.

Moving left may be good for them but when your dance partner is a group of terror bombers it don't look too good.

[sendero]

40. Try to follow this, ok?

The PEOPLE of Spain did not want to get involved in Iraq. They made that VERY CLEAR. IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH TERRORISM UNTIL WE MADE IT SO BY KILLING 10,000 of THEIR PEOPLE.

The idiot in charge ignored them. Now the terrorist see them as a target.

THE PEOPLE ARE PUNISHING THE GOVERNMENT FOR IGNORING THEIR WISHES in this matter.

Just what part of that DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

[bemildred]

42. Excellent. Well said.

The Spanish people have told the chickenhawks to go screw themselves.

[CerealMurderer]

46. Just what part of that DO YOU I UNDERSTAND?

I want to know why Spain was bombed. Answer that and we'll start from there...

[sendero]

52. Because they...

... joined the Coalition of the Billing and sent troops to Iraq. Where the heck have you been?

[CerealMurderer]

53. So Spain deserved to be bombed for siding with the US?

How can you justify the killing of 200 innocent people simply because of the freinds their government chose? How many hundred more victims would it take to convince you is was the bombers fault for the killings?

[sendero]

56. You...

... are so totally out of touch with reality a conversation with you is not possible.

It has to do with realistic consequences, not with what is right. If "right" prevailed, certain leaders of our own country would have been struck by lightning before they could order a pointless and counter-productive war.

I didn't "justify" anything. But I know better than to walk into a biker bar and yell "you are all a bunch of sissies". The ass-beating that would ensue would not be "right" or "justifiable", but it would be totally predictable and only an idiot would do it.

The Spanish people have just proven they are not idiots. Wish I could say the same some here.

[0rganism]

70. So Afghanistan deserved to be bombed for siding with Al Qaeda?

How can you justify the killing of 10000 innocent people simply because of the friends their government chose? How many thousand more victims would it take to convince you it was the hijackers' fault for the killings?

Or...

So Iraq deserved to be bombed for siding with Saddam Hussein? How can you justify the killing of 800000 innocent people simply because of the friends their government chose? How many hundred thousand more victims would it take to convince you it was the Defense Department's fault for selling Saddam Hussein WMDs in the first place?

Or...

So Vietnam deserved to be bombed for siding with the communists? How can you justify the killing of 3000000 innocent people simply because they chose to reject French imperialism? How many million more victims would it take to convince you oppressive empires breed their own resistance?

Gee, this formula is kind of fun. We could go on like this all day, I bet.

[SKKY]

79. How many people in Spain have you spoken to in the past 5 days???

Because I've spoken to several (Along with the spanish news sites I read as well), and they've all told me that if Aznar/Rajoy had been honest and forthcoming with them about the real line of investigation, they probably would have won the election. People didn't start getting mad and asking questions until the press reported the islamic connection but the PP kept pointing to ETA. If the Iraq thing was so important, why was the PP comfortably ahead in the polls just hours before the bombing? If you're going to yell at someone, you should make sure you know what the hell you're talking about. THIS HAD LITTLE TO DO WITH IRAQ. DO YOU FOLLOW ME?????

[0rganism]

41. Once again, please post your source for this information

Where are you getting the wack idea that "the bombers intended" a socialist majority? You're assertion is that somehow, radical islamic terrorists think they'd be better off with socialists, when they couldn't even handle working with the (relatively) secular Ba'athists in Iraq.

Seems crazy to me. But maybe you have a picture of terrorists celebrating their victory in the Spanish elections you'd like to share with the class?

[belle]

43. Really.

[CerealMurderer]

49. The bombers said to STOP SUPPORTING THE GREAT SATAN USA

The Spainish voters agreed and elected the socialist party that does not support the USA. What is so hard to see about this fact?

[LoZoccolo]

59. Like 90% of the people there opposed the war to begin with.

Nice try.

[LoZoccolo]

60. The Nationalist Party kind of agrees with the Republicans on some issues.

http://www.nationalist.org

Does this make you a racist and a fascist?

[0rganism]

71. This is called a "post hoc fallacy"

Because one thing occurs before another, you fallaciously assume the former causes the latter. I doubt there's a person in Spain who would cast a vote for the socialists because Al Qaeda told them to do so. In fact, it probably dampened support for the socialist party.

You neglect the reality of the situation in Spain: 90% of the Spaniards opposed Aznar's foreign policy before the bombing.

His party was going down, and the terror attack probably slowed their fall.

[sam7]

55. Agreed.

Al Queda bought their first election cheap--a few thousand dollars worth of plastic explosive and Radio Shack toys. Look forward to a bombing campaign aimed at turning elections.

[Rochambeau]

58. Just a question to Sam7 and Cereal_Murderer.....

if a terrorist attack happens 3 days before the presidential election of November, will you vote for Bush just to prevent the terrorists from cheering ??:freak:

[bonemachine]

86. What's scary

is how many people would answer that question yes....

[trogdor]

96. One would think.

My take is, Spaniards had a handy opportunity to decide at that moment who they wanted to take on the terrorists, and the Bushistas lost. Would we react in a similar manner? Who knows, but it does cast doubt over the "value" of LIHOP as a means of consolidating power. My guess (I've often been wrong, but what the hell) is that the Bushistas will do everything they can to ensure stuff like this <i>doesn't</i> happen, as publicly as possible.

[truthspeaker]

101. why would Al Qaeda want the Spanish Socialists in power?

Do we have any reason to think they'll go easy on Al Qaeda?

[Lorien]

44. Protest sign:

from the BBC:

Outgoing Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and his wife were booed and jostled as they arrived to cast their votes.
As he tried to address supporters, he was drowned out by cries of "manipulators", "liars" and "peace".
The Spanish government backed the US-led invasion of Iraq last year despite polls showing 90% opposition to it from the Spanish public.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3511280.stm

Hmmm... the Spanish people hold their leader responsible for his failures, while our people worship our "leader" FOR his failures (and pass responsibility to an administration no longer in power). amazing!

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rfkrocks]

63. freeper alert!!!

[Lorien]

68. The people punish Aznar

for NOT PROTECTING THEM. the most important role of a leader, and he failed. The enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, only the simple insist that if A=B, and B sometimes = C, then A always equals C. :eyes:

[seafan]

45. And NO suspended election after the horrendous attack.

We need a plan in place in case Bushco tries to get away with this after an October surprise.

[Rochambeau]

50. And even if

the terrorists cheers is it a reason not to vote???
The terrorists can cheer all they want they will just prove us that they are really stupid. But they are not, unfortunatly, they just have a several terms strategy.
It is obvious that neocons, neofranquists and so who started that war in Iraq are the objective allies of Al Quaeda (alliés objectifs in french. Is my translation correct?)! One helping the other it's evident. If I would be OBL I would try to kill Kerry and certainly not vote for him.

For me the strategy of the terrorist in the short run may be to try to affect the US by breaking the so-called "coalition", we can't deny that, but what is important IMHO is that in the long term they certainly need the "crusaders" like a torero needs a red cape. And guess what, the neocons need Al Quaeda like....well, a torero needs a red cape too!

For the terrorists the thing is certainly : "If I can choose my ennemy, between the moron and the wise, I pick the moron for sure!!
If I can choose between an hysterical dumbass who hurts me a bit (in Afghanistan) but finally makes me look like a martyr and a hero among poor desperate muslims and bring to me more and more recruts every day and, on the other hand, a wise political man, who already managed to reinforce the relations between the democratic leaders of the world, the real allies of his country while he is not even yet elected and who will try to solve the problem of Middle-East and try to cut the roots of hatred there, I pick the hysterical dumbass for sure !!
I'm sure that OBL has a "Bush/Cheney '04" poster on the wall of his cavern !lol

More seriously, they can cheer as much as they want, Kerry and Zapatero will hurt them far more then the chimpazee ever did and ever will.

Viva España !!
In Memoriam
11-03-04

[rfkrocks]

62. Freeper-dude turn on fox and keep saying Mission Accomplished

[rfkrocks]

95. Mea culpa

To your brilliant point-my post was meant for the freeper above-thanks for the imput!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

61. Check out all the low post agitators on this thread.

Try, try not to feed the trolls please.

[Rochambeau]

64. uhmmmm

I must admit that it sounds like the thread I read on "Free Rebublic", exactly the same arguments.....

[goforit]

66. Ah ..ha!!!...........Spain rises to power once again!!!!

LOL!!!!!

This "pretending Alqueda" may have helped put the
silver boot in *'s mouth.

ironic.

[phil_w]

72. Spain capitulates

So the Spaniards have capitulated. Undoubtedly many of them think this bombing was punishment for joining the U.S. in the war on Iraq and that voting in an antiwar government should appease the terrorists. However, the Islamofascists have been pissed off at Spain since the events of 1492. Spain's alliance with the U.S. was simply an opening.

Whether the Spanish want war or not, war is upon them ...and they just voted in a government that refuses to fight.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

75. They just voted in the government they wanted....

By refusing to suck up to the regime that let their own people be murdered, they've proven their superiority to certain craven Republicans bleating away on Fox.

[Stargleamer]

77. It's anger at their government, not capitulation

If 90% of Spaniards had supported the war, then one could say after the bombings, the Spaniards capitulated by switching allegiances. But they never wanted the war in the first place, with one (among many) of the reasons probably being that such actions would only bring terrorist actions against them. They were well aware that if their government just chose not to get involved in the conflict, they would not be targeted, AND 200 SPANIARDS WOULD STILL BE ALIVE TODAY. After all, what terrorist actions by Islamic militants were carried out in Spain when the Socialists were in power for 14 years--zippo.

But the PP ignored their wishes and sent troops in any way. Capitulation would be if the Spaniards had just said, "I'll just ignore my anger and vote for the PP anyway." If I tell you not to provoke a certain person because if you do he'll likely beat us both up, you shouldn't expect to escape my wrath, if you provoke him anyway.

And don't think that the anti-war socialists are just going to let the 5 arrested go off scot-free, if their guilt is established. If they are found guilty, they'll all be given life sentences.

Maybe I'm just feeding a G.D. troller--won't be the first time.

[Simard]

78. Why Socialists can fight terror bettter

Actually, the Spanish Socialist Party has made it clear throughout their tenure as opposition as well as during their campaign that they are willing to strongly fight the war on terror. Your generalizations about how many Spaniards "undoubtedly . . . think this bombing was a punishment for joining the U.S in the war in Iraq" is an oversimplification of the incredible events that have transpired in Spain over the past 48 hrs. The big story, aside from the 200 lost lives, is that Spain, Bush's staunchest ally in the war on terror, has changed its leadership because of the governing party's (PP conservative party) support of Bush's policies on Iraq.

The reason POSE (Socialist Party) was not ahead in the polls until after the March 11 bombings was because the Spanish people did not consider foreign affairs the major issue (it was the economy) until the bombings; POSE strength was always in foreign policy issues like the war in Iraq and the EU Constitution. The Spaniards realized the importance of not supporting reckless unilateral adventuresome and rather engaging in good diplomacy. The best way to fight is with friends that have your back.

[phil_w]

83. I don't quite follow...

The Socialists were voted in because the bombing drew the attention of the Spanish people away from domestic issues toward foreign policy issues? That is your understanding, yes? I agree. But do you also think the Spanish people voted for the Socialists because they think that they (the Socialists) will be tougher on terrorism than the People's Party? I really doubt it. They're looking to bargain with terrorists.
If the Socialist are really tough on terrorism then they can prove it by REALLY mobilizing the military. They need to send thousands of troops out there to fight alongside Americans in Afghanistan and every other place Al Qaeda has a foothold. I won't be holding my breath though.

Remember, the Islamofascists don't want an apology for the Iraq war, they want everything they lost in the fifteenth century. In other words, they want Spain!

[DrWeird]

84. That's a brilliant analysis.

Yes, they're trying to take over the world.

:eyes:

The conservatives in Spain are as bad as fighting terrorism as the conservatives in the U.S. That is, you're not fighting terrorism by invading Iraq because that's not where the terrorists are.

But it looks like the Spanish public isn't stupid enough to follow red herrings like american republicans.

[Bridget Burke]

93. If Al Qaeda's in Afghanistan, what were we doing in Iraq?

Actually, we were offered Osama if our government could actually prove that he caused 9/11. Bush didn't even try, but invaded.

Then promptly forgot about Afghanistan, Al Qaeda, etc., in the rush to Iraq. In which he involved the UK & Spain. This is obviously not the way to fight terrorism.

Unlike some American fools who love the "president" who presided over 9/11, the Spanish punished the party who left their country vulnerable to attack. In his effort to pin this on ETA, Aznar was, at least, not campaigning on the death of his countrymen.

Since you're so eager to fight the Crusade against the "Islamofascists" (ha!), when are you going to do your part?

[phil_w]

97. Say What?

"Actually, we were offered Osama if our government could actually prove that he caused 9/11." -by whom?

"Since you're so eager to fight the Crusade against the "Islamofascists" (ha!), when are you going to do your part?"
-A. Co 640th DASB Army National Guard
-We're scheduled to go to Afghanistan sometime in the next few months. Sounds like it'll be a 15 month rotation. Any by the way, I'll be proud to serve in afghanistan, iraq, or any other place where despots and terrorists threaten America.

[joshcryer]

91. Like how the US pulled out of Saudi Arabia?

Just like bin Laden wanted?

[moondust]

74. The proverbial chips are falling.

On George's shrunken head.

[slammin]

76. Why did Al-Queda Want to Avenge Iraq in Madrid ?

if Al-Queda was hostile to Saddam and the American invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with the war against terrorism?

That's the way conservatives are starting to spin this. Their argument goes that Al-Queda fears a democratic Iraq and prefers a destabilizing regional tyrant with Islamisist sympathies. Thus, they are arguing that Al-Queda's attack on Spain over their participation in Iraq is PROOF that the war on Iraq was part and parcel of the war on terrorism. Amazing!

[T_i_B]

81. Up yours Tony Blair!

No prizes for guessing that this is a blow to Blair. I mean goodness if Blair's such a big progressive how come the Spanish socialists think he's a dickhead?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2004%2F01%2F16%2Fwspain16.xml

Tony Blair has been called "a complete dickhead" by a leading Spanish politician live on television. The comment was made by Jose Bono, one of the three most powerful figures in the Socialist Party. His remarks were not intended to be heard, but were recorded by a television team while he was talking to Joaquin Almunia, a former Socialist leader.

Mr Bono said: "Hey, and our colleague Blair? He's a complete dickhead (un gilipollas integral). He's an imbecile."

The comments contrast with the Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar's carefully cultivated friendship with Mr Blair. The party is irritated by Mr Blair's friendship with Mr Aznar and dislikes the resulting Anglo-Spanish alliance.

[CoupdEtat2000]

82. Hmmm, this is going to be interesting to see how it ripples!

[PurityOfEssence]

87. A Socialist Monarchy; now THAT'S New Europe. How d'ya like that, Don?

Next should be Blair, Howard and Junior.

[democrank]

88. Misleading the citizens

has consequences in some countries. Bush should be scrambling to rework his mushroom cloud statements.

[Vladimir]

89. My tuppence on this

Its interesting how the media was widely predicting that the terrorist attacks would give Aznar's party an even greater majority - in the event of course the opposite happened. I am dubious that this was directly because of the bombing though - I can't see many conservatives who were going to vota Aznar switching sides in the space of a day or two. However, one thing that the bombing did do was drive the turnout up - and this is where I think we should look for answers. IMO, it was the large number of people who normally wouldn't have voted but who turned out this time who swung the election. Left wing parties do better on higher turnouts in my experience - this has been seen now in Spain and is a lesson to learn for the 2004/2005 election cycle in the US/UK. Half the job against Bush will be raising the turnout as high as possible.

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

98. That my friend, is the key.

After speaking with some of my friends in Spain. I realized that a lot of young people decided to vote for the first time. People were all over the news saying that normally they would have stayed home but the recent events compelled them to vote. Regardless of GOP media control and dirty tricks. Al Gore managed to get more votes than anyone else before him. Turn out here is shitty. But even so when people come out in big numbers they usually swing toward the more liberal candidate. I'm not saying this is universal, but I've seen it happen before.

[Vladimir]

99. Sadly

the media will of course portray it as surrendering to the terrorists - its a convinient lie. But the kids will understand, with any luck, that they do have the power if they choose to use it.

V

[bushisanidiot]

92. The People Have Spoken!! This Is Great News

good for the spaniards!!

hopefully, the repukes here will get the same treatment for their "sky is falling" behavior over here. Fear should NOT be used as a campaign tool.