Data point to Toyota's throttles, not floor mats

[Lionel Mandrake]

Source: Los Angeles Times

Amid widening concern over acceleration events, Toyota has cited 'floor mat entrapment.' But reports point to another potential cause: the electronic throttles that have replaced mechanical systems.

The Times found that complaints of sudden acceleration in many Toyota and Lexus vehicles shot up almost immediately after the automaker adopted the so-called drive-by-wire system over the last decade. That system uses sensors, microprocessors and electric motors -- rather than a traditional link such as a steel cable -- to connect the driver's foot to the engine.

For some Toyota models, reports of unintended acceleration increased more than fivefold after drive-by-wire systems were adopted, according to the review of thousands of consumer complaints filed with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29,0,5254584.story

---

When I examined the driver's side floor mat in my 2005 Prius, I saw that there was no way the mat could get anywhere near the gas pedal. I thought then, and I think now, that floor mats are probably not the cause of most incidents of sudden acceleration in the Toyota vehicles that have been recalled.

Kudos to the LA Times for the investigative reporting. It couldn't have been easy to gather so much information, given that both Toyota and the NHTSA have tried to keep it hidden.

[WriteDown]

1. Uh-oh....

Toyota was caught with its pants down. Where are the defenders?

[MindPilot]

3. I'm really curious now about the differences in the programming

of the Toyota systems and the other manufacturers with fly-by-wire systems that have not experienced sudden acceleration complaints. Because I'm going to bet that's where they will find the cause.

Toyota needs to get the problem isolated and fixed while they still have a car company.

And a big part of the problem is in the Japanese business culture, the preferred method of dealing with a problem is to deny it exists, and if that doesn't work, ignore it.

[Lionel Mandrake]

4. Right on all counts.

Some of the other manufacturers have already done what Toyota says it will eventually do, which is to stop the car when both the brake pedal and accelerator are depressed (or something like that).

The details would be interesting.

[WriteDown]

50. As far as this part

"And a big part of the problem is in the Japanese business culture, the preferred method of dealing with a problem is to deny it exists, and if that doesn't work, ignore it."

The same has been seen with Subaru who denied the 60K transmission failure problem in the Forrester and other models for years.

[SmileyRose]

2. But but but

it's the lazy union slobs who are at fault for defective cars...........


er um


ahem


what?????

[Omaha Steve]

5. They are the new world leader

Now we see where they are leading the American consumer.

K&R!

[Kablooie]

6. And Toyota has just announced a HUGE recall for brake pedals that will cost them a mint!

If this isn't the problem they've really made a big mistake.

[JSK]

12. The recall is for the gas pedal

To make it shorter so it doesn't get stuck under the floor mats. What a complete waste.

[Kablooie]

13. Oh yes, my mistake.

[high density]

7. Love this part...

Three years ago, the (NHTSA) asked Toyota to test an electronic throttle component from a 2006 Camry, a task the company delegated to the Japanese supplier that manufactured the part. The supplier exonerated the throttle, and then NHTSA allowed Toyota to keep virtually the entire 74-page report almost completely confidential. The report, posted on the agency's website, has dozens of redacted pages.

[MindPilot]

14. And the NHTSA is heavily lobbied by the insurance industry

They don't get to increase your rates if it can been shown it was the car's fault. The insurance companies' exposure for their Toyota owners just went way up.

[tomm2thumbs]

8. when the brake doesn't disengage the throttle, you have a problem

I'd be interested to see if an agency is tracking parts to see if they are fixing a programming error or replacing a part other than the pedal

[JBear]

31. Is there a situation where you might...

Is there a situation where you might want to have the throttle engaged and have a foot on the brake? In a conventional transmission car, I would think that the answer is yes. For example, pulling a boat off of a ramp or starting while on a steep hill. In these cases, there is a problem with the simple logic of gas engaged-brake engaged means no engine rev.

Not trying to quell discussion or anything, I would like to remind everyone that the entire system, its intended actions and its unintended effects must all be taken together. The complexity of the system makes this task more complex. The complexity of the requirements also makes the task more complex. Either way (floor mat issue or faulty sensor issue) the engineers at Toyota should be revisiting this system assessment (and they have one, I guarantee!) to see what they could have missed.

Sounds like time for an FMEA to me!!

:bounce:

[tomm2thumbs]

36. I think the issue concerns high speeds, at least regarding the officer/family fatality

what is FMEA?

[MindPilot]

45. failure modes and effects analysis

A failure modes and effects analysis (FMEA) pronouced fah-me-ah, is a procedure in operations management for analysis of potential failure modes within a system for classification by severity or determination of the effect of failures on the system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analysis

[FarCenter]

38. The alternative is to use the hand brake in those situations

It should be a separate system.

[Lionel Mandrake]

41. My Prius doesn't have a hand brake.

It has a second foot brake, which is intended for use when parking the car. The second brake functions as a toggle: to disengage it, I have to first press down, then let up on it. Using the regular brake is easier.

[Lionel Mandrake]

39. Yes, it's complicated.

Thank you for pointing this out.

I sometimes have feet on both pedals in my Prius. For example, if I have stopped at a light while headed uphill, I will hold the brake pedal down with my left foot while starting to press the gas pedal with my right foot. In this situation it would be inappropriate for the electronics to ignore the signal from the gas pedal.

The logic for preventing runaways should probably depend on the amount of force on the brake pedal and the (apparent) position of the gas pedal. I don't know exactly what the logic should be. All I know is that some manufacturers have done this and gotten it right.

[MindPilot]

42. it would have to factor in also road speed and engine rpm

basically a subroutine that constantly checks several factors, throttle pedal position, brake application force, throttle plate opening, mass air flow, road speed, engine rpm, gear selection and if any of them are out of range compared to the other, return the engine to idle, load the appropriate diagnostic code to memory and turn on the "Check Engine" light. And run another sub-routine to monitor the first one; if the engine does not return to idle, turn off the fuel pump and ignition system.

This is a problem that could likely be fixed by reprogramming. Even if there actually is a part failing, reprogramming would prevent the uncontrollable acceleration and isolate the failing component.

[dysfunctional press]

43. most european cars do, by design...

toyotas don't...also by design. and that's a rather large mistake on their part.

[dballance]

9. Floor Mats - Right. That didn't make sense to begin with

What a BS excuse - floor mat entrapment? Seems the statistics are not on Toyota's side. I smell a class action here if they don't fess up and fix the problem. People have died and more will probably die. Not a good corporate citizen.

[AzNick]

10. The first Volvos with this system had similar issues

Volvo recalled their cars, if I remember well, and had the units reprogrammed.

Note they are a bit "laggy" now.

[Stargazer09]

11. Great. Just great.

I replaced my Honda Pilot with Toyotas, because the Pilot's side air bags didn't deploy in a serious accident four years ago.

Now I have to worry about my Toyota taking off without my permission.

Is there any brand of vehicles that is safe to drive?

[MindPilot]

15. Tried a UAW-built Ford or Chevy?

Trade that Toyota before it loses any more value...

[roamer65]

28. I love my Chevy Colorado.

Great truck so far and built right here in the USA by UAW workers.

[marybourg]

44. My '91 Suburban had a defective throttle position sensor which

was replaced several times with another just as defective throttle position sensor, each time causing road service calls and ruining several road trips. I wish it were as simple as buying a chevy, but it ain't.

[8 track mind]

49. Thats rather odd

Sounds to me like the mechanic misdiagnosed it. On that particular injection system the engine will keep going even if you unplug the TPS. It would throw up the check engine light and it would probabaly run a bit odd, but it would keep on trucking. What were the exact symptoms if you remember? Just asking out of curiosity. GM does make a good car, it's the service department that truly pisses me off. They don't pay those technicians to think, just swap parts until it runs right.

[SmileyRose]

16. Here's a list

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/11/19/ford_subaru_vw_lead_safe_cars_list/

Ford’s recipients include the Taurus, Lincoln MKS, Volvo S80 and C30 passenger cars, and the XC60 and XC90 SUVs.

Subaru won with the Legacy, Outback, and Impreza cars and the Tribeca and Forester SUVs. It attributed its success to engines that sit low in the chassis and move down in a frontal collision.

VW scored with the Jetta, Passat, and Golf, the Audi A3, and the Tiguan.

Chrysler won for the Sebring and Dodge Avenger sedans, the Dodge Journey mid-size SUV, and Jeep Patriot.

[ginnyinWI]

18. According to Consumer Reports, here's how you handle a stuck car:

If you are in a car with a stuck throttle, you brake gently if you can, and you put the car into neutral. That will slow it down enough to brake it all the way. You do not want to try turning off the ignition, because then you will probably lose your power steering and power brakes.

[Lionel Mandrake]

24. Braking gently won't work for a Toyota.

You have to put both feet on the brake and push as hard as you can. Even that won't necessarily work.

Putting the car into neutral is probably the best bet. If that doesn't work, you are probably screwed. If you aren't yet going too fast, you might want to crash into the first available obstacle

The last recourse is to hold down the power button (if there is one) for three seconds. That will shut off the motor, but then you will have difficulty steering and braking.

[SandWalker1984]

17. We've had the same intermittent problem with our Hyundai

On rare occassion, usually as we stop at an intersection, the motor will suddenly race as if you have the throttle all the way to the floor. Tapping the pedal again usually stops the problem.

Is the auto industry trying to hide a major design flaw here?

[UndertheOcean]

19. Thank good I went for a used 2000 Mercury cougar ....

didn't cost me a fortune , is a beautiful ride , and surprisingly reliable despite Ford's reputation (you know : Found on the road dead)


If only you didn't need to take off one of the front wheels to get to the alternator . Or have the thermostat buried so deep beside the engine it takes 3 hours of labour just to replace it.

But that beats sudden acceleration and "drive by wire" problems anytime.

[divideandconquer]

20. What about all the non Toyota drivers endangered by these cars?

[UndertheOcean]

21. What do you suggest ?

[Odin2005]

33. My dad had a '76 Cougar when I was little. Nice car for it's age!

[adamuu]

22. Does anyone know why the malfucntioning vehicles cannot simply be shifted out of gear

This is what they taught me to do in driving school in the case of a stuck gas pedal. Shift into neutral, then brake and pull over, then shut the engine off.

Forgive me for not reading up on this.

[MindPilot]

29. Most people do. But in some cases panic takes over.

In the Lexus for example you have to hold the start button down for three seconds to kill the engine. The Lexus also has an overly complicated shift gate that makes finding neutral difficult even when you're not hurtling down the road in a runaway vehicle.

And if errant computer programing has taken over the throttle it's conceivable other inputs may be non-responsive.

It's real easy to sit at your computer and say do this or that, but when it really happens to you, your own response may not be so textbook.

[RamboLiberal]

54. This crash made me suspicious of Toyota/Lexus

acceleration problem. One would think that if anyone knew how to handle this situation it would be a Highway Patrol officer.

Amid widening concern over unintended acceleration events, including an Aug. 28 crash near San Diego that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and his family, Toyota has repeatedly pointed to "floor mat entrapment" as the problem.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29,0,5254584.story

This is 911 call from his brother-in-law in the backseat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHGSWs4uJzY

[8 track mind]

23. saw this coming from a mile away.....

Anytime you make something more complex, the greater the chance of failure.

My theory on whats happening:

There is a lot of electrical "noise" in the engine compartment of a car. I'm thinking that either the wiring or the throttle servo is not adequately shielded from this noise, thus confusing/ tricking the engine control module to go into wide open throttle mode. However, from the accidents i have read about, people were saying that applying the brakes would not get the throttle to return back to the idle position. This sounds to me like something has sent a huge voltage spike from the servo control motor, up through the wiring to the actual semiconductors that are responsible for controlling said servo. The transistor acts as a water valve to electricity: the more control voltage you apply to it, the more electricity will flow to the device you want to control. I believe this spike is shorting the control transistors/ Integrated circuits causing full voltage to be sent to the throttle servo. I've seen this sort of thing happen in electro-mechanical systems numerous times. Most of teh GM injection systems i have studied, have built in spike suppression. The schematic plainly shows it.

If this is indeed the case, Toyota should have their asses sued off for poor engineering. There should be a sort of fail safe on the system, or an emergency engine kill as some of these accidents involved the "keyless" ignition switch.

It's probably going to be a while before the real truth comes out.

[FarCenter]

25. Shouldn't they be able to tell from the codes whether the problem is pedal or throttle position?

I'd think that since they are pursuing the floor mat theory that they know that the pedal position reading shows the pedal depressed. Thus, it is more likely that there is an undiagnosed fault in the pedal position sensor that causes the engine control module to send a signal to the throttle control motor to open the throttle.

If the throttle control module opened the throttle without command, then the engine control module would see a throttle position sensor reading that didn't make sense.

But this seems like an inherently iffy system.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/throttle-by-wire.htm

"In 1988, BMW was the first vehicle manufacturer to offer electronic throttle control on its 7-Series cars. In 1997, Chevrolet opted for "Throttle Actuator Control" (TAC) on its C5 Corvette. Today, you will find electronic throttle control on the Ford Crown Vic, Focus, Five Hundred, Fusion and Mustang, Saturn ION and L-Series, Cadillac CTS, STS & XLR models, Toyota Camry and Prius, various Mercedes models, Nissan Maxima, Volkswagen Jetta and Passat, and many other cars, even diesel-powered pickup trucks."

[8 track mind]

35. not exactly

This is an OBD2 system so im not exactly familiar with how it logs a trouble code/fault flag. But i'm thinking that the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) is simply showing a wide open throttle condition and the computer is responding accordingly, going into full power mode. The throttle control system could be a stand alone system, or in other words, has nothing to do with the ECM. Some of GM's stuff is like this, IE The cruise control system is a standalone unit, only taking a sample of the vehicle speed sensor signal. The computer does not talk to it or control it at all.

[MindPilot]

30. Agreed -- noise was a huge problem in the 70s

when electronics first came into widespread usage. Primitive--by today's standards--electronics coupled with the fact that ever other vehicle on the road had a CB radio and a couple 500watt liner amps under the seat...Got yer ears on good buddy? Cars would just randomly quit rolling down the road. A few minutes later it would restart, no reason, always unable to duplicate the problem.

Everybody knew what the problem was but we couldn't fix it; the engineers had us techs wrapping wiring harnesses with tinfoil, precisely repositioning wires away from interference sources, but the real issue was the electronic modules themselves needed some spike suppression circuitry.

I'll bet somebody at Toyota got told to cut a little corner to save a few bucks.

[8 track mind]

37. When i was in high school

We had a truly fantastic automotive shop course and an extremely dedicated teacher. He would bring in guest instructors From Dallas and the surrounding areas. One instructor who was from TSTC in Waco, tx, was teaching a course on the new (at the time) GM distributor-less ignition systems, how it works, troubleshooting it, etc. He told us that Porsche had one of the first DIS systems that was very sensitive to any outside interference. Owners would complain of the car shutting down, only to start back up again once they pulled over. Apparently the problem was caused by RF interference from truckers CB's. It would interrupt the crank trigger signal and it would freak the ECM out. When you turned the ignition switch off and back on again, it would reboot the computer and everything was just peachy.

[MindPilot]

40. Awesome--

you were very lucky to have received such an excellent vocational education in high school.

[Odin2005]

34. Wow, that IS sloppy engineering!

:wow:

You're right, if that's the problem Toyota needs to have it's asses sued off!

[wtmusic]

46. Also: any time you make something more complex in a car

you increase the chances your customers will return to the dealer for service.

The simplest, most elegant engineering solution is not always the most profitable.

[sendero]

55. I think it is a lot simpler than that..

... the sensor that tells the computer where the gas pedal is is erroneously telling the computer that it is mashed to the floor.
It doesn't take noise or spikes or anything, just a defective sensor.

[8 track mind]

59. Well I'll admit

I'm shooting from the hip on this one. I truly wish I could get my hands on the service manual. If I had that I could tell you exactly how it works. All the systems I've fooled with the TPS is simply a reference for the computer to see how far the throttle blades are opened. The other sensors determine engine load, vehicle speed, ect. The computer takes all of this and adjusts the timing and the fuel Injector "on" time for an optimum burn/ air fuel ratio. The newer GM systems have the ability to close the throttle if the computer determines that the user is abusing the vehicle. This is known as abuse mode, or self-protect mode.

The one thing I have a question about is why didn't the ECM notice that there was a problem with the throttle not returning and impose a rev limiter? This is what is leading me to belive this throttle system is independant from the control systems. Like I said earlier, this is complete speculation and I really wish I had the money to blow to get my hands on the service manual.

[cartach]

26. Bought a 2008 Buick Lucerne a few months ago_ _ _

and thought that the steering was binding on me. Could feel it on the steering wheel when making turns at very low speeds. Was going to take it back to the dealer but happened to mention it to the local mechanic where I get work done when warranty runs out. He checked under the hood and advised me that I had electric power steering which I had never heard of before. Did some research to find out how it worked and established that mine was operating normally for low speed operation but the first thing that ran through my mind was what might happen if some of the electonics failed at high speeds. Still wondering.

[kma3346]

27. This happened in my area too

I remember hearing about this and wondering what the real story was. It sounds like since they're not addressing the real problem, there will be more accidents.

Toyota recall and apology come too late for Redwood City man and San Jose family

By Sandra Gonzales
Posted: 10/04/2009 06:21:01 PM PDT
Updated: 10/14/2009 02:49:49 PM PDT

After Guadalupe Gomez's 2007 Toyota Camry careened out of control, mysteriously accelerating to more than 100 mph on a San Jose highway, no one quite believed his story that the engine simply surged on its own when it smashed into a Honda Accord, killing its driver in a burst of flames.

Now, they do.

In an extraordinary move last week, Toyota's president apologized after his company announced it was launching its largest recall ever in the United States over floor mats that could jam the accelerator — a similar problem that thrust Gomez into such a legal quagmire that even the attorneys who sued him extended their sympathy.
"This poor man (Gomez) was just driving his car and this happened," said Mohinder Mann, the attorney representing the family of Troy Edwin Johnson, the 39-year-old driver of the Honda Accord. "He was very honest, he told everybody what happened, but CHP wanted to blame him."

Gomez's attorneys did not return calls seeking comment, and a Toyota representative said they could not comment on former litigation.
"Toyota was attempting to put some blame on him, but he did everything he could to stop the car and prevent it from crashing, he was dodging cars and holding down the horn. He was very remorseful," said Gary Mann, an attorney who also represented the Johnson family and interviewed Gomez while investigating the crash.

Rest of the story is here:

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_13484932?nclick_check=1

[Odin2005]

32. But, But, I thought Toyotas were PERFECT!!! *SARCASM*

:sarcasm:

Domestic cars are looking better every day.

[CreekDog]

47. This is "drive by wire" or the automotive equivalent of "fly by wire"

that you see on Airbus.

[sendero]

56. Except..

... implemented with one millionth the engineering cost and one millionth the manufacturing costs.

[Jamastiene]

48. It truly might not be the case with the Toyotas, but

the floor mat on the driver's side of my little '89 Nissan Sentra kept getting tangled up in my feet while I driving. I no longer use a mat on the driver's side and don't plan to ever again.

[Missy Vixen]

51. I had the same thing happen with our '94 Sentra

We took the floor mats out as well.

Scary.

[Romulox]

52. Is it too early to suggest a bailout for Toyota?

:evilgrin:

[Brickbat]

53. But but but! BUT!!!111!!11! Toyotas are manufactured in factories that run on farts taken from

consenting unicorns, and are built by workers that never frown! HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN????????????????

[Taverner]

57. Oh. Shit.

:scared:

[AngryAmish]

58. The problem is in the code (computer code is garbage)

Or so I'm told.

[quakerboy]

60. Impossible

Just yesterday my handy local Toyota salesman told me that there is no recall, just an "advisory" not to let your mats get tangled, because one, only one, policeman got his mat scrunched up and had a crash in his Lexus in California. It wasn't even a Toyota, see, but because it was an officer these things get overblown. So what you say is impossible. The salesman wouldn't lie.

[AnneD]

61. I was skeptical from day one about the floor mats.....

I just could not see how that was mechanically possible. I figured it was like the time Toyota explained their seat belt failure because the belts were dirty from drivers eating in the car causing the mechanism to fail. Well at that time NHTSA actually did their job and called bull shit on Toyota's story. It turned out to be a mechanism failure in the seat belt its self. Yes, they have a history of bull shit explanations, NHTSA has been pretty much gutted since Bush2.

[mstinamotorcity]

62. now you know how i feel

about vehicles that are made by those people. No prejudice against any ethnic culture. But i have always had a problem with countries we have been to war with or engaged in battle building or manufacturing anything on U.S. soil. Don't get me wrong, i believe we should honor all peace treaties and agreements but allowing wage controlled jobs by foreign companies to build in the U.S. doesn't seem right. And if you are not of a job yet,keep buying foreign. If America wants a more efficient car from American manufacturers, they should demand it. And just how much of a kick back do those states that host these car companies get. i hope that everyone who is having a problem with their Toyota gas pedal will continue to have a safe journey until you can have the problem fixed. My objective with this post is truly to wish you well out there on the road.stay safe. LOVE AND PEACE TO DU:dilemma: