Switzerland votes on minaret ban

[struggle4progress]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

November 29, 2009 - 11:39PM

Switzerland votes Sunday on a controversial call by the far-right for a ban on the construction of minarets, even as the government opposes the move, warning that it could taint the country's image.

The Swiss People's Party (SVP) .. had forced a referendum under Swiss regulations on the issue after collecting 100,000 signatures within 18 months from eligible voters ...

The Swiss government has asked voters to reject the call, arguing that accepting a ban would bring about "incomprehension overseas and harm Switzerland's image" ...

In the run-up to the poll, a mosque in Geneva was vandalised for the third time during the anti-minaret campaign, local media reported Saturday ...

Read more: http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/switzerland-votes-on-minaret-ban-20091129-jz0s.html

---

Swiss Voters Accept Ban on Minarets, Exit Polls on TV Show
By Jann Bettinga
Nov. 29 (Bloomberg) -- Switerzland’s voters probably backed a call for a ban on the construction of minarets, according to exit polls reported by Swiss public television. Voters backed the ban with a majority of 59 percent, the television station said on its Web site today, citing results from polling organization Gfs.Bern. The ban “should be clearly accepted,” the broadcaster said ... http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atgCqDx3Cctc&pos=8


Ban on Minarets Rejected by Swiss Majority
November 28, 200
(Angus Reid Global Monitor) - The controversial proposal that seeks to ban the construction of minarets in Switzerland is set to fail in tomorrow’s referendum, according to a poll by the GfS Research Institute released by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation. 53 per cent of respondents would vote against the proposed ban. Since 1959, Switzerland has formed its government under a power-sharing agreement known as the "Magic Formula." The country’s four major political parties are represented in the seven-post cabinet. Presidents are elected by the Assembly for one-year terms from the pool of cabinet members. The president remains a member of the cabinet and does not hold any extra powers ... Last year, the ultra-nationalist Swiss People’s Party (SVP) gathered more than 113,000 signatures to force a nationwide referendum on banning the construction of minarets in Swiss mosques. The minaret—a tower from which the call to prayer is sounded—is a distinctive architectural feature of Islamic mosques. At this time, only the mosques in Geneva, Wangen near Olten, Winterthur and Zurich have minarets. The government and most members of the current cabinet oppose the Minaret Initiative, but cannot impede the plebiscite from happening ... http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/34584/ban_on_minarets_rejected_by_swiss_majority/

[onehandle]

1. 'Taint' the image of the bankers of Nazi gold?

Impossible.

[Capt_Nemo]

2. The irony is that one of wealth sources of the swiss

is the money that the Middle Eastern royal families spend/invest/deposit in Switzerland,
among them the self-styled keepers of the islamic faith: the House of Saud.

I go often to Geneva, for work reasons, and you can always see some of the princes' jets parked in the airport and their
Rollers and Bentleys parked at the door of luxury hotels near the lake.

Maybe the swiss should be more careful about pissing off these guys...

[bc3000]

42. The irony is DUers supporting religious conservatives decorating the landscape with their symbols

[CJCRANE]

44. The real irony is that in a secular society all religions should be treated equally.

What if they banned the Star of David? It's only a symbol.

I understand them wanting to protect their architectural heritage but there are more sensible ways to do that.

[jberryhill]

64. It's called civil liberties....

If you want to build a pointy tower on your own property, then what's the problem?

[bc3000]

92. No, it's not called that

The Swiss don't want a bunch of pointy towers, then what's the problem?

[jberryhill]

94. It is not a "pointy tower" ban

There is not some sort of Swiss architectural uniformity. "Swiss architecture" is a hodgepodge of French, German and Italian influences propped up between dreadfully dull "new international style" reinforced concrete and glass.

This is not a ban on pointy towers. The ban is expressly directed at pointy towers attached to mosques.

The call to prayer is already banned only as a consequence of a religious neutral noise pollution policy.

But this is not a "pointy tower" ban, it is a minaret ban. Minarets come in a variety of shapes and sizes as well.

If you want to build "pointy towers" that look JUST LIKE minarets on your farm, you are free to do so. But only if it has religious significance is it banned.

Don't be silly.

This thing stands in a main shopping plaza in Geneva:



It is one of the original "pointy towers" that sat along the wall of the town.

[onehandle]

129. Their countrysides are beautiful but the cities are ugly.

A mishmosh of clashing styles inhabited by frankly, unhappy and unfriendly people.

I wonder who their Glenn Beck is?

[jberryhill]

136. That's what cracks me up about the "architectural integrity" contingent here...

I have to believe those folks have never been to Switzerland.

The Swiss Re building in London looks more like a minaret than anything else.

[treestar]

143. I don't know what their legal system is like

But aren't they asking on litigation on whether or not this or that design is a "minaret?"

Also it doesn't stop anyone from having a mosque. Just don't have a minaret on it. Unless a mosque just isn't a mosque without one.

[jberryhill]

149. You can have churches without steeples too....

But the fact that both mosques and Christian churches use pointy things, and that a distinction is being made here is pretty astounding.

I'd be interested to know whether this is subject to some sort of legal review, because there is no way that such a thing would pass muster in the US.

[Thothmes]

99. Doubt they are their to pray.

Suspect a ham sandwich and a cold beer is higher on their priority list.

[GreenStormCloud]

3. Passed by 59%. The hate is rising.

Sadly, I think that anti-Muslim hate will continue to rise all across Europe until it explodes. Combined with the global recession it is providing fertile ground for demagogues.

[harun]

104. I feel this will be blood in the water for Far Right parties accross Europe to

start pushing similar proposals.

[struggle4progress]

4. Minaret ban approved by 57 per cent of voters

To the great surprise of pollsters and the regret of the government, the Swiss on Sunday said yes to a ban on the construction of minarets.

According to final results, 57.5 per cent of voters and a majority of cantons backed the initiative ...

"A majority of the Swiss people and the cantons have adopted the popular initiative against the construction of minarets. The Federal Council respects this decision," a government statement said.

"Consequently the construction of new minarets in Switzerland is no longer permitted. The four existing minarets will remain. It will also be possible to continue to construct mosques" ...

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/Minaret_ban_approved_by_57_per_cent_of_voters.html?siteSect=105&sid=11554852&rss=true&ty=st&ref=ti_spa

[Capt_Nemo]

5. of course the government regrets, see why im my post above (nr. 2)

it's pretty stupid to bite the hand that feeds you

[Imajika]

8. To their great surprise...

This great "surprise" is kinda like when US voters say they are for marriage equality to pollsters on the phone, and then vote against it.

People often don't want to admit that they are not really very tolerant, so they will tell pollsters that which they think the pollster wants to hear, then march off to the polls and vote what they really think deep inside.

Anytime you see an election like this, the wise move is to always add somewhere between 5-10% to the intolerant vote to account for the polls being distorted by people not answering honestly. In the case of the Minaret ban, apparently it was more like 15%, but that makes sense when considering almost every official organ of the state and probably the media opposed the ban, so more people probably felt queasy about admitting intolerance.

Historically, in this country, you can see this same thing within generic balloting polling. When asked which party people intend to support, Democrats tend to fare several points better than what really happens at the ballot box.

[onehandle]

9. No surprise. The Swiss tend to be isolationists. nt

[Robb]

6. This sort of reminds me of a small town I once lived in.

Reeeeeal small.

Anyhow, the town council wanted to ban mobile homes within town limits. But didn't want to sound like they wanted to ban mobile homes.

So they changed the town's building code to prohibit structures with fewer than three roof crests.

[Aramchek]

7. Well, how about that? Mr. Neutral just put a giant target on his back.

[knightinwhitesatin]

10. Not agreeing or disagreeing with the ban

but kind of ironic that passing a law within their own country makes them a target for fanatics outside their country.

[Posteritatis]

28. They passed it because they fear invasion by said fanatics, or something equally absurd

I started seeing the "minarets are guard towers of the islamofascist occupation!" bullshit a few years ago, and that's pretty much what the campaign for the ban was arguing.

[cowcommander]

11. Muslims are the new Jews

It's like the 1930's all over again...

[Flaneur]

12. Swiss ban mosque minarets in surprise vote

Source: Associated Press

GENEVA (AP) -- Swiss voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on minarets on Sunday, barring construction of the iconic mosque towers in a surprise vote that put Switzerland at the forefront of a European backlash against a growing Muslim population.

Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad condemned the vote as biased and anti-Islamic. Business groups said the decision hurt Switzerland's international standing and could damage relations with Muslim nations and wealthy investors who bank, travel and shop there.

"The Swiss have failed to give a clear signal for diversity, freedom of religion and human rights," said Omar Al-Rawi, integration representative of the Islamic Denomination in Austria, which said its reaction was "grief and deep disappointment."

Some 2.67 million people voted 57.5 to 42.5 percent in favor of the referendum by the nationalist Swiss People's Party, which labeled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. Voters in only four of the 26 cantons or states opposed the initiative, granting the double approval that makes it part of the Swiss constitution.

Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and fewer than 13 percent practice their religion, the government says. Swiss mosques have not traditionally broadcast the call to prayer outside their own buildings. The sponsors of the initiative said the growing Muslim population was straining the country "because Muslims don't just practice religion. They increasingly make political and legal demands."



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_SWITZERLAND_MINARET_BAN?SITE=CAANR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

---

A sad display of European bigotry.

The advertising posters are worth looking at. If I knew how to post images, I would post one here. They magically transform minaret towers into missiles. Cool propaganda!

[Love Bug]

13. I wonder how such a vote would go here? I think we know the answer to that.

It's not just European bigotry --- I'm sure there is plenty of bigotry to go around. It's a good thing we have a constitution that protects minority rights against the whims of the majority.

[Flaneur]

21. Well, it was the Swiss who voted today. Not us.

[mstinamotorcity]

138. I can tell you

how it would go in the U.S. It happened here in Michigan. A few years back it may be as many as five oe six,The people of Hamtramck,MI were in a battle with Islamic leaders about the Call to Prayer. I hope i am using correct terms. They had to go to court. In the end the court ruled that The Call to Prayer was no different than the ringing of the church bells. And if anyone knows the area you know that Hamtramck was a truly Polish God Fearing Catholic City. And living near Hamtramck i could hear the church bells. Funny i can't hear the call to Prayer. Just a thought.

[jberryhill]

150. What you *can* do in the US is...

It would be okay if a neutral noise ordinance had the effect of banning both the call to prayer and the ringing of church bells. But you can't be selective about whose religious noise one is going after. An ordinance against noise - any noise at all - is rationally related to a legitimate government interest.

And they are really tough on noise in Europe. Unnecessary horn honking in Belgium will get you a 50 Euro fine.

[UndertheOcean]

14. Good old fashioned European Xenophobia that gave us the Holocaust. n/t

[divideandconquer]

15. Hitler was inspired by what the USA did to the Native Americans

Right down to the reservations/concentration camps.

[JonQ]

23. It's true, every horrible thing in history can be traced back to the US

don't even get me started on americas role in the crusades (can you say oil profits?).

[proteus_lives]

30. Or our influence on the Mongol invasions!

Will humanity ever be free of the US scourge?

:eyes:

[WriteDown]

27. Uh, as a Native American...

Your post = FAIL.

[The Green Manalishi]

153. Not 'inspired'

but he did use our genocidal treatment of indigenous Americans to basically tell Roosevelt to 'Butt out'. Hitler accused the U.S of hypocrisy in condemning his polices toward Jews and Gypsies while having done the same thing for the last century and a half. I'll refrence the speech when I get home and off work if you would like me to.

[Posteritatis]

52. Except, y'know, how he wasn't. (nt)

[Democracyinkind]

110. More inspired by american Eugenics than by americas handling of the "Native problem"

[pipoman]

123. Yea, right

and English and French colonialism was also influenced by what the US did....oh, wait.. :crazy:

[sledgehammer]

16. Great way to encourage Muslims to be more tolerant!

:sarcasm:

Sadly, it's going to have a reverse effect. The community will just build bigger mosques without the minarets, and will now feel like they are making a point.

Poor decision Switzerland. Tolerance is a 2-way street.

[GreenStormCloud]

17. Fear has a lot to do with it. They are afraid of Muslims, and the fear becomes hate.

Among other things, Europeans are fearful that the Muslims among them will become politically strong enough to enable Sharia Law to be enacted.

[Flaneur]

19. That seems a little silly in Switzerland--Muslims are 6% of the population.

[Democracyinkind]

111. yeah but the talking point was that in 1970 it was only 0,6%. So they extrapolated on those numbers

and basically asked people: Do you want muslims to make up 60% of the population in 20 years? The gullible fell for it, sad as that is.

[treestar]

144. Muslims who want to have strict Sharia law

would be somewhat selected out, though. Why go to Switzerland when you could stay in Saudi Arabia?

[Posteritatis]

18. Isn't the tyranny of the majority awesome? (nt)

[Lost-in-FL]

31. Tyranny by the loud minority do exist. nt

[Posteritatis]

45. Not in this case, it doesn't. (nt)

[Democracyinkind]

112. The majority of votes does not equal the majority of inhabitants. THe bigtos went to vote, most of

the rest stayed home. That's why everyone is so surprised by the result, the people who said NO in the polls just didn't have as big a stake as the yes crowd and they tended to stay home.

[Posteritatis]

151. Close enough. Non-voters are irrelevant, so my point stands. (nt)

[CJCRANE]

20. So what happens if someone builds a minaret?

It's a strange thing to ban.

[Democracyinkind]

113. Since you cannot build without a permit, you will not get one unless you scrap the minarets.

But that is still some years down the road. The big problem now is: How to write that stupd clause into the constitution? It's not the first time that swiss voters demand something that is basically impossible. So there's still hope for the thing to be killed by the courts once the actual clause is presented.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FarCenter]

24. Actually, the Swiss don't want [b]anyone[/b] who is not Swiss moving there

They are the original "don't screw with the well-armed guys living up in the mountain valleys" people.

[onehandle]

58. Exactly right. nt

[Capt_Nemo]

65. However they'll accept anyone's money, no questions asked!

[Democracyinkind]

109. So how did I get born? If your post were true, I couldn't have.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Imajika]

34. Yeah, I am waiting for the Christian churches...

..to start being built in Saudi Arabia.

[Flaneur]

36. You know, this isn't about Saudi Arabia or Indonesia or Pakistan.

It's about Switzerland.

[Imajika]

43. Yeah, I'm very aware of it...

..and my point is, before Muslims howl too much, maybe they should consider how intolerant so many Muslim countries are to other religions.

Switzerland banned additional Minarets ONLY. They didn't ban Mosques, they didn't ban the Koran, etc, etc. In many places where Sharia is the law of the land, it is punishable by death to even convert to a different religion. Where are the Christian churches in Saudi Arabia? Oh yeah, that would be illegal. Not just a big Christian steeple, ANY Christian church is illegal.

I think banning Minarets is the wrong move. I'd have voted against such a thing. But Muslims should take a step back before they get all pissy about it and realize that just maybe the religiously moderate people of most of Europe are getting a little bit tired of the double standard many Muslims seem to have.

I mean, Europeans have welcomed millions of Muslims into the fold, only to find out that many don't really want to integrate at all, want to impose Sharia Law, go ballistic if anyone lampoons their religion in any way, etc, etc.

So yeah, I am quite aware of what nation we are talking about here.

[Posteritatis]

51. Then talk about them and don't treat a billion people monolithically

It's not as emotionally satisfying as lumping mainly Bosnian immigrants to Switzerland into the same pile as Saudi Wahabbists, or thinking the national laws the latter live under have any bearing here, but it's a bit more intelligent.

[Imajika]

69. Oh I am talking about them..

The Swiss don't live with blinders on. They can plainly see how Islam treats other religions in places like Saudi Arabia. They can also plainly see that an awful lot of Muslims whom have immigrated to the West don't really seem interested in integrating, and quite often start lobbying for Sharia law in their adopted nations.

I oppose the Minaret ban, I would have voted against such a thing, but quite frankly, people are fearful that the Islamic populations are more interested in imposing their way of life on others instead of adapting to the societies they move in to.

The are increasingly rejecting the behavior and attitudes of the Muslims whom they allowed to move to their country. Then they look around the world and see how Muslim nations treat other religions - which by the way is quite horribly.

This is a minaret ban, not a ban on any religion nor a ban on Mosques. My point stands. Before Muslims throw a fit about this, maybe it is time they ask themselves why Islamic countries like Saudi Arabia, Islams spiritual home, don't even allow the practice of other religions, let alone churches built.

And can you blame the Swiss for being a little concerned that the Muslim populations they have allowed to live amongst them are pushing for draconian Sharia law? Laws which call for the death penalty for anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion? This kinda of religious law has no place in Switzerland, the people are horrified anyone living amongst them would be for such things.

[Capt_Nemo]

77. Sorry but this is an absolute falsehood:

"And can you blame the Swiss for being a little concerned that the Muslim populations they have allowed to live amongst them are pushing for draconian Sharia law?"

This is as real as Saddams WMD. Nice to know however that you are up to date with
neocon talking points.

And by the way how do minarets work in order to impose islamic way of life on other peoples?

Do bell towers impose a christian way of life on those living nearby?

[mamaleah]

81. The minarets do not at all. Nor do bells.

Regarding the poster's comment about Sharia, both Quebec and Ontario in 2005 rejected the use of Sharia to solve family disputes. Not the same as wanting the government to mandate Sharia for all, however I still believe the provincial governments made a wise decision in saying no.

[Imajika]

83. Nonsense...

Yes, a disturbing number of Muslims in Europe DO want Sharia law. Europeans tend to be nominally Christian, but fairly secular in the way they view government. It is fairly shocking for an awful lot of Swiss, French, etc, etc, that so many Muslims do not seem interested in integrating, rather they often act more interested in forcing society to accept their version of religious law.

I didn't say ALL Muslims want that, but enough do where many Europeans are now frightened and concerned that their immigration policies have perhaps been to relaxed.

The Minarets are just really tall, really visible symbols of Islam. A large majority of the Swiss apparently object to any more of those being built.

As I said before, I would have voted against this ban. I do believe that before Muslims get too upset, they should maybe look at some of the reasons why the Swiss are increasingly resentful and suspicious of Islam.

[Capt_Nemo]

88. I'm an european so I know one or two things about my fellow europeans

1. Muslim imigrants are in no position whatsoever to impose anything on any European
State remotely close to Sharia

2. There are those fearful of that absurd prospect. They're called bigots.

[Imajika]

90. So your saying that 57% of all Swiss..

..are bigots?

Just to be clear, there is NO other reason in your opinion for this vote other than bigotry?

So we are on the same page, it is your assertion that the majority of Swiss are bigots?

[Capt_Nemo]

91. Yes I'm saying that 57% of those that voted in this referendum are bigots

that is clear for me

[jberryhill]

95. Yes, they are

...and that's not new, either.

While the Germans were exterminating the Jews, the Swiss were cashing checks.

Germany underwent a very difficult lesson and a re-shaping of their society after being nearly obliterated.

The Swiss skated on... unscathed and untroubled.

[Violet_Crumble]

106. I'll be very clear in saying that as well. And anyone who tries to blame Muslims for this is as well

There's no oher way to descibe a mindset that singles out one group of people apart from others, and I read today that the last time a law that did this happened was back in the 19th century.

[Democracyinkind]

115. While I agree with what you say...

There are girls in Switzerland that get their genitalia mutilated, there are girls in Switzerland who get married against their will, and all those horrorstories. Of course these get used by bigots for their own end. But there is a problem; the conception of privacy and the potency and reach of the liberal state doesn't seem so easy transferable. Our police is having big trouble trying to prevent mutilations/forced marriages, and since they don't want to or can't solve the problem, the bigots get their field day.

In no way does Islam threaten Switzrland. Yet it confronts the Swiss with side-aspects of some fraction of islam that is simply incompatible with the swiss liberal state. By focusing only on that small subset the swiss were convinced that the subset is represantative of all muslims living here. I get the creeps from the bigots shouting "watch for sharia" - I don't see us in danger - but to ignore that there are incompatible ways (mutilations/forced marriages) is to ignore the hell-hole that feeds the bigtos for the most part.

[Capt_Nemo]

120. Sorry, but genital mutilation is punished by common law

The way to deal with it is to make sure existing laws are applied, period.

There are all kind of abuses against women that occur every day in our society but for
some strange reason people just want to address those perpetrated by muslims, this
seems to be a pretty unhealthy fixation.

[Democracyinkind]

132. I know that. Problem is, it will only be prosecuted when brought to the attention of the authorities

And that's the problem: A community of women who are denied proper contact with the outside world. There is no way to punish the people who forced them to do that as long as they are monitored and kept away from society.

And in Switzerland, there is simply no other group of systematic abusers of women than this particular part of the muslim culture. In all other groups you run to the authorities when you get mutilated. So no problem there.

Look, I totally agree with you. But here is the problem: I personally know girls from school who have been mutilated. Our laws did not prevent that. And with things as they are, our laws cannot adress the problem.

It's not like I said banning minarets helps with the problem. But our liberal state is confronted with these two problems that the current laws can't prevent.

Thing aren't as black and white as they seem. Applying the existing laws in communities that shelter themselves from the outside is not all that easy. A problem Americans should know well, I think.

[LeftishBrit]

84. 'Welcomed into the fold' is putting it a bit strongly..

Most Europaean countries suffer from a lot of prejudices against immigrants and foreigners; Islamophobia tends to be secondary to general xenophobia.

And very few Muslims want to impose Sharia law on Europaean countries. There are a minority of Europaean Muslims who want Sharia law accepted *just for the Muslim communities* (most do not in fact ask for this). Almost none want to make *non*-Muslims live by Sharia law. I don't know whether you've been reading right-wing Europaean anti-immigrant tabloids, or listening to right-wing American anti-Islam talk-shows, but either way it's rubbish. Muslims make up 4% of the Swiss population; they're in no position to impose anything.

And people should NOT be blamed for what people of the same ethnicity or religion do in another country. Especially when it's not even their country of origin; most Muslims in Switzerland originate from Turkey or Bosnia, neither of which is associated with Sharia law.

[Violet_Crumble]

105. How come what you said is acceptable about Muslims...

...but would be bigoted if said about any other group? What about this? Those words would have been right at home in Nazi Germany...

'But Jews should take a step back before they get all pissy about it and realize that just maybe the religiously moderate people of most of Europe are getting a little bit tired of the double standard many Jews seem to have.'

[treestar]

145. The don't want to integrate thing is a myth IMO

Their kids will integrate.

[Flaneur]

35. That is a ridiculously stupid post.

Where to begin? You want to excuse the bigotry of the Swiss against their Muslim residents by launching a tirade against Islam in general. Islam in general is not going to be hurt by the Swiss vote. Swiss Muslims are. Swiss Muslims are not exactly known for their radicalism; most of them are from Bosnia.

This is not about allowing Muslims to proselytize in Switzerland. It's about allowing them to build a house of worship.

And it's not the Swiss Muslims "who can't take it," it's me and other progressive people who think it's wrong and bigoted.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. So the Swiss can act just as badly and it's okay with you?

And why do Muslims have to lead by example? Do you think Christians are a bunch of morons who can't do what's right unless someone else does it first?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

140. So the answer is to become like them? -nt

[bc3000]

37. I would have voted against the minarets

I don't think that the right of immigrants to modify the skyline is a basic human right. I don't see why people shouldn't be able to protect their nation's architectural identity.

Muslim immigration is a problem in Europe. The solution is neither a complete ban nor unconditional acceptance, but somewhere in between. Nations with progressive and enlightened views are accepting large masses of people whose religion is often in direct conflict with these views.

[cartach]

49. Then why

are the Sikh and Orthodox churches excluded from this ban? It's all about discriminating against Muslims and that's how it started in Nazi Germany. Absolute BS to suggest it has anything to do with protection of architectural identity. What a bunch of nonsense! That kind of statement is a very weak one and does nothing to conceal your basic intolerance and bigotry.

[onehandle]

57. Not a surprise. The Swiss tend to be isolationists. nt

[Bhaisahab]

124. Here's the poster

Pretty insidious isn't it?

[Lost-in-FL]

25. This is not about "tolerance" but wanting preferential treatment. nt

[Posteritatis]

29. OMG special rights! (nt)

[Flaneur]

33. You are kidding, right? "Preferencial treatment"?

And the misspelling is a sly dig at the idiocy of people who actually make such arguments? Right?

[Lost-in-FL]

38. No I am not kidding.

And you are only complaining because the ruling was in Europe and not here in the US. So please, spare us the fake outrage.

[Capt_Nemo]

67. Wrong. This is about equal treatment of religions by the law

in a democratic ans (supposedly) secular state

[Lost-in-FL]

76. Are Muslims not allowed to worship? Is that what this law is about?

Building codes in several cities throughout Europe have been modified to protect historical monuments or simply due to aesthetics. For example, no building in the vicinity of the Eiffel Tower should be taller than the tower itself. I am sure that if any other religious group (or secular) decide to suddenly built monstrous buildings throughout the city, they would be stopped under any of these same premises. I don't have a problem with that.In fact, THAT is their country and they can vote for this measure if they please. We should have no saying in their decisions as we have no moral ground to stand on when it comes to freedom due to the systematic intrusion of religion in politics in America.

We really have some nerves telling them how to run their country when here in the USA is quite ok to infringe the rights of GBLT community and women are forced to continue their pregnancies for purely religious reasons. So before we are all outraged about this decisions we need to take a hard look at ourselves first.

Equal treatment of "the people independently of religion" by the law sure sounds better than "protection of certain religions by the law".

[Capt_Nemo]

80. Thankfuly I'm not "here in the USA"

I live in Lisbon, where there is a mosque (I think the only one in the country)
that has a minaret tower, that never bothered me at all neither tried to impose
an islamic way of life on me.

In fact, the other day, at a birthday party I met the architect that designed
the mosque. There is no reason why such a structure cannot be designed in order
to integrate with the sorrounding landscape.

That is a bogus argument behind which bigotry hides.

[Lost-in-FL]

85. Wow... Live in Lisbon where there is one Mosque.

I am sure that your expert opinion about my "bigotry" is based of one architect and one single mosque.

[Capt_Nemo]

I wasn't talking about you

I was talking about the swiss far-right bigoted argument against minarets.

But if the shoe fits...

[jberryhill]

152. Neutral building codes are one thing...

Yes, if a building code specifies that structures need to be a certain shape, style, height, materials, etc., that is fine.

But a religious-neutral building code differs from one that says "A Christian church may have a steeple, but a mosque cannot have a minaret."

That is not a law based on preservation of architectural integrity, but upon something entirely else.

Aside from which, Swiss cities are a hodgepodge of dreadful architecture.

[LeftishBrit]

78. Preferential treatment? Last I heard, there was no ban on church towers...

so how is allowing minarets 'preferential'?

[Lost-in-FL]

87. There is no ban on the building of mosques, synagogues, churchs, etc.

All religions are free to worship their imaginary friends.

[Irreverend IX]

40. This could be seen as a public health measure...

Helping to stop the spread of the highly contagious mental disease that is religion.

[TK421]

74. Sadly, there is no cure in sight for this menace n/t

[UndertheOcean]

41. Saudi Arabia: No churches unless prophet Mohammed recognised, says expert

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Religion/?id=1.0.1993520344


just some perspective

[mamaleah]

48. However, we aren't talking about those countries.

And I am certain most DUers are opposed to the "only Islam" laws in those countries.

Presumably, if Muslims wanted to live in Islam only counties, they wouldn't move to countries like Switzerland. I have the feeling most of the Muslims in Switzerland do not mind the fact that most of their fellow countrymen are either atheists or of another religious belief than themselves.

[Capt_Nemo]

66. That's for sure, but...

I think they are going to mind that most of their fellow countrymen are bigots

[LeftishBrit]

72. 'But Saudi Arabia is even worse!' is not really much of an accolade or even excuse...

[cartach]

47. What do you expect -

from a bunch of fascists. Their "neutrality" of WW2 was one of the biggest scams going and this is just another reminder. What makes it really disturbing is it seems that this is what the ordinary citizenry really think and not something being forced on them by their government. I would love to see Switzerland condemned for their bigotry at the international level but I won't be holding my breath and I'm afraid this will spread. On the positive side maybe the focus for Islamic terorism will be more on those countries that actually deserve it instead of those that are trying to do something about bigotry and racism.

[Imajika]

53. Huh?

"On the positive side maybe the focus for Islamic terorism will be more on those countries that actually deserve it instead of those that are trying to do something about bigotry and racism."

Are you saying Switzerland now deserves to be attacked by Islamic terrorists?

And if you are indeed suggesting such a misguided thing, how do you think the Swiss people would react to their Muslim minority community if Islamic terrorism actually becomes a problem for them? You think the Minaret ban is bad, just wait to see what the Swiss will do if they are targeted by terrorists.

[Dutch]

139. Are saying the Swiss "deserve" terror attacks???

Because I've seen some pretty sick stuff spouted here - as often as not in defense of Islamic extremism- but that might just take the prize for most warped outburst yet.

[BolivarianHero]

50. And once again, the horders of Nazi wealth stand proud against human rights...

What do you expect from a barbaric asshole of a country that didn't even allow women to vote until the 1970s. These savages should be absorbed into Italy, Germany, and France.

[Posteritatis]

54. They've got some cheerleaders in this thread too. (nt)

[BolivarianHero]

55. I know...

And the logical fallacies they propagate are absurd to the point of comedy.

Their "arguments" boil down to the idea that secular countries with Christian majorities should treat Muslims the way non-Muslims are treated in Islamic theocracies or that Swiss Muslims are somehow responsible for bad public policy in Iran or Saudi Arabia. (My grandparents are devout Catholics who deeply admire the Trudeaus and the Kennedys...I suppose they're responsible for pRick Santorum's policy positions.)

[LeftishBrit]

86. Much as I don't approve of what Switzerland did here...

or more generally of its inappropriate use of referendums to establish the treatment of minority groups, let us not engage in the same sort of prejudices about the Swiss! What a country did or didn't do in WW2 is not relevant to the current situation - otherwise we would be condemning Germany and Italy even more than Switzerland.

[Violet_Crumble]

107. Excellent post. I couldn't agree more...

I don't approve of that raking back through history and sweeping generalisations about an entire population when it's done about European countries in the I/P forum, and I don't approve of it here in this case, no matter how totally wrong and bigoted that part of the population who voted that way were. When it comes to the vote in Switzerland, it's disgusting that so many people are ignorant and bigoted enough to support a law like that, and clearly there's an urgent need for education. Calling them barbaric arseholes etc isn't going to achieve anything. Right now it's Muslims (and many Swiss Muslims are refugees from Bosnia, so many of them are survivors of genocide) who are getting the treatment, but how long will it be before other minority groups are targetted?

[Democracyinkind]

116. Thank you.

[knightinwhitesatin]

56. At least the Muslims in

Switzerland got to have a vote about their religious freedom. Not so much in Saudi Arabia, Somalia, etc............

[Posteritatis]

59. That means it's okay! (nt)

[knightinwhitesatin]

60. Huh?

I am pointing out the difference between the Swiss and the Saudis. The result is the same, but in one country you can vote for religious freedom, in the other country the mutaween are no so tolerant. Do you actually deny this? The swiss are wrong, but at least people had a choice.

[Posteritatis]

61. I actually do deny that the Muslim population had a choice in Switzerland

They had as much of a choice as Muslims living in Texas would if that state decided to regulate a specific religion for entirely bigoted reasons. They had the choice to get drowned out by a mass of paranoid xenophobes. There's a reason I invoked the tyranny of the majority elsewhere in this thread.

[knightinwhitesatin]

63. If 4% of Swiss

are Muslim that means that 40 percent of the swiss voted for religious tolerance. In Saudi Arabia there is never a vote for religious tolerance, it is forbidden. Do you debate this point? I agree that the Swiss were wrong, now you need to agree that the muslims in Switzerland at least had a chance at religious freedom, while in Saudi arabia non muslims do not have that chance. Surely you believe that things in Saudi Arabia are not as tilted towards tolerance as they are in Switzerland.

[Capt_Nemo]

68. Problem is that today the far-right came for the muslims, and people looked the other way

what about next time? who will they come for?
next thing you know it's not that different from any totalitarian state...
like, say, Saudi Arabia?

[Imajika]

70. Oh please...

..this is a ban on Minaret's that 57% of the population supports.

This isn't a ban on the practice of Islam, this doesn't prevent new mosques from being built, etc.

This certainly does no make Switzerland a totalitarian state.

Maybe it is time we all start asking more questions about why Islamic countries don't allow the free practice of other religions? I think a bigger story is that here we are in 2009 and nations like Saudi Arabia still do not allow the practice of any other religions at all. If Islam is really the religion of peace (and presumably tolerance), as I am sure for most Muslims it is, why are they so hellbent and determined not to allow people to freely worship however they'd like?

[Capt_Nemo]

82. The big story is the restriction of civil rights in democratic societies

ignore it at your own peril

[knightinwhitesatin]

98. What civil right has been restricted

Mosques can still be built, just no minarets. And thanks Imajika......that is m whole point, the swiss just said no minarets, religious freedom is intact. Can't say the same for certain other countries.

[Capt_Nemo]

101. Why no minarets? either it is absurd stupidity or it is blatently discriminating one religion

why not achitectonic restrictions on other religious buildings?

why no banning of bell towers?

I tell you why: it is about getting a message across to muslims that they
are not welcome in Switzerland. It couldn't be any more clear.

Furthermore the proponents of the ban defend that the minarets are a
symbol of creeping islamisation.

Have you ever seen a minaret converting someone to Islam? Submitting someone to sharia?

No, neither have I. That argument is just pure hate speech.

[knightinwhitesatin]

102. So I guess

you don't mind religious phrases on public buildings or nativity scenes all over the place? Oh noes the muslims can't have towers on their mosques but they are still allowed to practice their religion as they please and build new minaret-less mosques........... I can hear the Swiss warming up the gas chambers from here........ :smoke: Give me a break

[Capt_Nemo]

103. No break for you

I repeat:

The proponents of the ban defend that the minarets are a
symbol of creeping islamisation.

That argument is just pure hate speech.

I have no trouble with nativity scenes and religious phrases inside churches,
just like I have no trouble with minarets being parts of mosques.

What do public buildings have to do with this?

[Violet_Crumble]

108. Sorry, but Switzerland hasn't banned nativity scenes...

All the law bans is minarets. It doesn't ban church towers or any other religions public buildings. If it was a law that didn't discriminate solely against one religion and did it to all, I'd still think it was wrong, but not singling out one group of people. The fact that it's Muslims who are the target of this law and the associated vitriol and lies is what makes it and any of its supporters bigots...

[Capt_Nemo]

122. The objective of the proponents of the ban is pretty clear:

fan the flames of racial hatred.

By doing this they have achieved their purpose of intimidating the muslim community
of switzerland.

Of course the ban doesn't extend to the construction of mosques, but now, with
the climate created by the referendum, muslims will fear to propose any such
development, and will be afraid of displaying any behaviour that associates
them with islam.

That was the clear objective of the referendum.

[LeftishBrit]

79. So Saudi Arabia is a reactionary intolerant country. No one is denying this.

How does that justify what Switzerland is doing?

It's not even as though most Muslims in Switzerland are of Saudi origin. Most are Bosnian or Turkish.

[knightinwhitesatin]

97. who is justifying Switzerland?

[greengestalt]

62. Pure hate speech

How may pounds of gold-filled teeth still sit in vaults there?
Or, perhaps they are doing that to "Make up" to the Jews?

[LeftishBrit]

71. Switzerland is known for cuckoo clocks and some cuckoo politicians and sometimes cuckoo voters...

(edited because it was pointed out to me that this was not a decision by politicians as such.)

To give them their due they are not usually warmongers; but they are not the most progressive of countries in a number of ways: e.g. women only got the vote in federal elections in 1971!

[Imajika]

73. The politicians were against this...

Pretty much the entire Swiss establishment to include the government and media opposed this (other than a couple fringe right wing party's). The people voted for this Minaret ban over the objections of the vast majority of politicians. The result ran counter to every pre-ballot poll. The outcome surprised almost everyone.

[LeftishBrit]

75. Then cuckoo mob spirit in this case....

If this happened in the UK, I would be blaming the tabloid press; but I don't know enough about the press in Switzerland.

Perhaps, like your Proposition 8, it should be seen as a warning of the limits of the referendum: it has many uses, but not as a means of deciding how minority groups should be treated.

[Democracyinkind]

119. The NO side had no campaign. The Yes side had the whole RW zionist NY community fire them up

about "Political islam" and "islamofascism"...

I am working on a post about that New-York clique of "experts on islam" that made the speaking circuit for this election. Where did the money come from? The RW here seemed to be pretty good connected to other RW parties and ideologes, something that really put me off.

[Capt_Nemo]

121. That NY right wing zionists team up with the ideological heirs

of the killers of 6 million jews is revealing of the depths of their moral corruption

[Democracyinkind]

133. Absolutely. It boggles the mind.

[Dutch]

141. There it is -- the Z-Bomb--

Surprised it took you great champions of tolerance and true opponents of bigotry so long to pin all this all on the Global J--*ahem* "Zionist" Conspiracy.

[Democracyinkind]

146. The point is that the Yes campaign had access to funding, pundits and speakers while

the no-side was not organized and had no international support at all. Sorry that I find it odd that the speaker list of the yes campaign consisted of a few "experts on the issue from NY" - I didn't want to imply that they plotted this initiative, but they sure did support it. Just something that caught my attention - can't remember another issue where the bigots relied on "american experts" to fire up the mob since we (as this election showed again) are in no short supply of local hatemongers and demagogues. It's just that I fear the connection since most of the people who voted yes that I know of are decisively more liberal than the hardcore RW zionist speakers that they listened to during the debates.
The thought that the Swiss right is starting to relate and find common ground with the international right scares me... The right used to be extremely isolationist while the left grew strong thru contact with other European leftist parties - this has always worked in favor of the liberals and I wouldn't want to see this change. But Islam and Islamists might be the common ground that finally pushes even the swiss RW out of its isolationist stance. I'd dread that. The right in Switzerland is marginal even when they have a 30% majority like they've had the last years precisely because they are absolutely unconnected in the European context. If they are starting to find common ground with the ultra RW that spoke on their campaign then this country is in deeper shit than just this election.

[Jim Sagle]

162. Translation: the joooooooooooooos did it.

Fuck off, bigot.

[LeftishBrit]

148. Why on earth would American Zionists be interested in Switzerland?

Switzerland is a very isolationist country which has little influence on either the Middle East or for that matter the rest of Europe. It also has one of the smallest Jewish populations in Europe; and its Muslim citizens are not of Middle Eastern origin.

[Democracyinkind]

158. Because they are interested in promoting Muslim-hate wherever, whenever.

And "our muslims" are of middle eastern origin, too. I never saw a demographic statistic that said otherwise. Iranians and Egyptians were the predominant group for a long time, allthough I'm not sure how accurate that is still today.

[Democracyinkind]

118. In some cantons it was 1991! Direct Democracy is a blessing and a curse.

That's the kind of shit you get when the people actually get to decide.

[robo50]

89. Very bad for the image of Switzerland, my Swiss friend told me

in a conversation on the Skype phone a few minutes ago.

I guess there are right wing extremists in each and every nation.

[jberryhill]

93. Freakin' Hillbillies...

Holes in their cheese AND their heads.

...and that's from shooting apples off of each other's heads with arrows as the national sport.

[robo50]

96. Funny how the Europeans looked at the Americans that same way for

eight years, or do you prefer to forget?

[jberryhill]

100. Ask the Swiss if they consider themselves "Europeans"

They've voted out of the EU every time.

[LeftishBrit]

114. Very true!

[LeftishBrit]

126. For that matter..

you might get a very interesting debate if you asked a bunch of Brits whether we are Europaeans!

[jberryhill]

137. I was just thinking that...

I usually refer to the UK as "that European archipelago".

[Democracyinkind]

117. Culturally we are Europeans. Politically, as in EU-Members, we are not, and don't want to be.

We just lost our taste for Empire in 1515. And nobody wants that taste back.

[Kshasty]

125. hope, society will understand it

and probably they'll change the desicion

[Scurrilous]

127. Europe unites to deplore Swiss ban on minarets

<snip>

"The Swiss and European establishment united today in deploring yesterday's decision by Swiss voters to outlaw the construction of minarets but conservative leaders warned that the referendum showed genuine fear over Islam on the continent.

Swiss officials, media and business leaders voiced shame over a vote that they say will stigmatise the country's 400,000 Muslims and stain Switzerland's name in the Muslim world. In contrast, hard right leaders in France, Austria, Italy and the Netherlands hailed what they depicted as a triumph for the people against the elite.

Le Temps, Geneva's establishment newspaper, said: "The vote was inspired by fear, fantasies and ignorance." Damage to the country's international standing would be spectacular, it said. "Vengeance, boycotts, retaliation ... this clash with Islam could cost dearly."

Tagesanzeiger, the Zurich daily, said that the vote, staged on the initiative of the nationalist Swiss People's Party (SVP), showed the country's deep division between outward-looking modernisers and a traditionalist backlash. The 57 per cent approval of the minaret ban would "strengthen the international isolation of Switzerland even among western nations," it said."

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[marshall]

128. Europe is going to pay the price one day for dissing Islam

Didn't they learn anything from us and 9/11?

[Codeine]

130. I'm sure you can't wait.

Every nation should "diss" every religion. Fairy tales are poison when people actually believe them.

[slackmaster]

131. Which 9/11 are you referring to?

Islam got its sorry ass kicked on September 11, 1683.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

[Democracyinkind]

135. 9/11 was not about minarets.

As long as the swiss don't quadrupelfuck the ME like the old American empire did, we have nothing to fear.

BTW, as pointed out above - you don't blow yourself up infront of the bank that serves your organisations financial needs.

¨But yeah, Siwtzerland has its issues, now even more. Now it's not just Lybia that equates Switzerland with "anti-muslim-nazism"

[Dutch]

142. Yes, the world would be grand if everyone just gave in to violence and intimidation.

Never diss the religion of peace.

Man, the Chamberlainites are out in force today...

[LeftishBrit]

147. Sorry but that's a daft post

You seem to implying the same as the Right, that Muslims are basically just terrorists, except that you propose appeasing rather than fighting them.

The Swiss Muslims have nothing to do with Al Quaeda.

And bad as Europaean xenophobia is (and it is far from restricted to anti-Muslim prejudice), it doesn't mean that we deserve an attack from Al Quaeda. Any more than America did. Blimey!

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[struggle4progress]

134. Foreign, domestic anger at Swiss minaret ban

By FRANK JORDANS (AP) – 24 minutes ago

GENEVA — A top Swiss official said Monday that voter approval of a ban on minarets next to mosques could be struck down in court, as critics at home and abroad swiftly condemned the vote, saying it undermined the country's liberal, secular image.

Legal experts have questioned whether the ban on the Islamic towers used for the call to prayer is compatible with the country's constitution and international human rights law.

Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said it would come into force immediately, but indicated that it could be overturned.

"The ban contradicts the European Convention on Human Rights," Zurich daily Blick cited Widmer-Schlumpf as saying. Switzerland currently presides over the court ...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jSvKwQU-w3j6Gp8PWHRzV2hnh54QD9C9U3DO0

[Imajika]

154. If this vote is negated...

..by the courts, the public is just going to express the same sentiments by voting for far right parties.

The Swiss public is making it pretty clear that they are not comfortable with Islam's lack of integration. This theme is spreading throughout Europe. Politicians and courts should tread very lightly here.

The people have vented in a pretty harmless way. If the politicians and courts ignore them, and negate their voice, the public is only going to become further radicalized and perhaps pissed enough to vote for more far right politicians.

The European elite better pay attention to the rumblings being sounded by their public. This vote was a shock. Every pre election poll showed that this Minaret ban should have been defeated easily, yet it wasn't. A lot of Swiss people are quite clearly saying what they perceive is the politically correct thing to pollsters, but voting just the opposite. This anti-immigration sentiment is growing in Europe, and it would be a mistake to dismiss people's feelings on these issues.

[Capt_Nemo]

156. So politicians and courts should submit to xenophobic far right policies

and facilitate their implementation, instead of standing for justice and civil rights,
just because the public has fallen for the far right demagoguery...
... Because, otherwhise the voters will vote for those far right parties and the very
same policies will be implemented.

You know what, that has already happened here in Europe:
Don't stand up to the far right, give in to all their demands, and nevertheless
they will end up in power because your actions have legitimized their claims.
It was back in the 1930s.
Don't forget, voters will always prefer the genuine fascists.

[LeftishBrit]

157. That is a very dangerous sentiment

I don't generally approve of 'Godwinizing' but cannot help pointing out that when the Europaean elites listened to and appeased the right-wing xenophobes in the past, the results were not pretty.

If the mainstream parties turn far-right to prevent voters from electing far-right parties - what is the difference from their electing a far-right party?

Would you still agree with your post if it were changed to:


'The American public is making it pretty clear, through the teabagger movement, that they are not comfortable with liberal policies toward poor people and minorities, or with having a black president. This theme is spreading throughout the United States. Politicians and courts should tread very lightly here.

The people have vented in a pretty harmless way. If the politicians and courts ignore them, and negate their voice, the public is only going to become further radicalized and perhaps pissed enough to vote for more far right politicians.

The American elite better pay attention to the rumblings being sounded by their public; e.g. Proposition 8 and the Minutemen. This anti-immigration and anti-gay sentiment is growing in America, and it would be a mistake to dismiss people's feelings on these issues.'

I hope you would be horrified by such a statement - yet you are making essentially the same statement about Europe.

Fortunately, just because Switzerland *is* pretty isolationist, what happens there will probably have relatively little impact on the rest of Europe.

[pampango]

159. Liberal parties should stick to their values, not become "right wing lite" to appease rw xenophobes.

"The various far-right parties all operate in a similar manner to how the fringes of our far-right political spectrum — the Tom Tancredos of the world — operate. They seize upon economic calamity and social disorder — which is either natural in the case of integration or due to regressive economic policies in the case of unemployment — and blame the oldest of age-old targets for nativists: those darn immigrants."

http://trueslant.com/zaidjilani/2009/11/30/swiss-vote-to-ban-minaret-construction

I hope you are right about what is happening in Switzerland having relatively little impact in the rest of Europe. I imagine that the far right wing parties in Europe, though not politically powerful, hope to use the current "economic disorder" to boost their popularity at the expense of immigrants.

[Capt_Nemo]

160. Amazing, isn't it?

Those that immediately shout "Chamberlain!", "Appeasers!" (see for example post 142)
when one stands for exhausting every diplomatic possibility before going to war,
or just favour engaging or building bridges with other communities
(in particular muslim communities), are the first to cave in to the far right's
intolerant, racist and aggressive demands.

Who are the appeasers now? Who is the real Chamberlain?

[LeftishBrit]

161. Your last sentence is absolutely right

'I imagine that the far right wing parties in Europe, though not politically powerful, hope to use the current "economic disorder" to boost their popularity at the expense of immigrants.'

And although I don't think Switzerland is influential here, most Europaean countries have their own far-right parties, and they can be a big problem.

[Scurrilous]

155. Rights watchdog hints Swiss minaret ban could go

<snip>

"A Swiss ban on minarets could violate fundamental liberties, Europe's top human-rights watchdog said Monday in an indication that the heavily criticized vote could be overturned.

The Council of Europe said banning "new minarets in Switzerland raises concerns as to whether fundamental rights of individuals, protected by international treaties, should be subject to popular votes."

The statement by the 47-nation council's secretary-general, Thorbjorn Jagland, suggests a case may be made to seek a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights condemning Switzerland for violating freedom of expression, freedom of religion and prohibition of discrimination.

Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf said the ban would come into force immediately, but also indicated that the court could strike down the Sunday vote, which incurred swift condemnation at home and abroad for banning the towers used to put out the Islamic call to prayer.

"The ban contradicts the European Convention on Human Rights," Zurich daily Blick cited Widmer-Schlumpf as saying, referring to the 1950 treaty laying out basic rights that the court in Strasbourg, France, was created to ensure member states abide by."

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