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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 03:46 PM
Original message
'US warned China that Israel could bomb Iran'
Source: Jerusalem Post

'US warned China that Israel could bomb Iran'
Nov. 26, 2009
Jpost.com staff and ap , THE JERUSALEM POST

Two senior officials from the White House, Dennis Ross and Jeffrey Bader, made a trip to China on a "special mission" to garner support in Beijing over the Iranian nuclear program, according to a Thursday report in The Washington Post. The officials visited China two weeks before US President Barack Obama arrived in Beijing.

The officials reportedly carried the message that if China would not support the US on the issue, Israel would be likely to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities. The paper quoted the officials as saying that Israel saw the issue as "an existential issue," and that "countries that have an existential issue don't listen to other countries."

They stressed that were Israel to bomb Iran, the consequences for the region would be severe.

The efforts seemed to have yielded results, according to White House officials quoted in the report, as the six world powers, including both China and Russia, put together a resolution critical of Iran's nuclear program earlier this week.

Read more: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259010987363&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. All about Israel. Don't want them to feel threatened now do we.
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Excuse me ... but HOW many troops are we sending to Afghanistan...
ostensibly to keep Al-Queda away from nukes?
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:43 PM
Original message
Excuse me... what does that have to do with Isreal Bombing Iran?
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. What it has to do with it is....
a lot of people here complain about Israel getting aggressive against a country that it believe will have the potential and desire to nuke them yet also don't seem to be as bothered by our being aggressive in a country that we believe has the potential to nuke us (with Pakistani equipment if the entire area destabilizes). This is the real reason we are going into Afghanistan (and I don't condone it btw) - because we are afraid if the area destabilizes Al-Queda gets it's hands on Pakistani nukes.

So it seems a bit unfair to me that some people believe one is all right - but not the other.

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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Oh I got it now..
If your against supporting an Israel strike against Iran, you are automaticly in infavor of an Escalation in Afganistan, bacause you can't be against both, right.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. I seem to remember when you went into Afghanistan Al-queda had something like 300 fighters.
I somehow don't think that was the reason for going into Afghanistan.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. one of the reasons that we're in afghanistan...
the other is to secure the route for an oil/gas pipeline from turkmenistan to karachi.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. There's the Geopolitical ANSWER! :-) eom
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. dupe
Edited on Thu Nov-26-09 04:44 PM by bahrbearian
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Last time I checked my world facts book, Afgahnistan doesn't have nukes.
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Play ball with us or we'll turn our pit bull loose on your buddies
And we don't know what the fuck he'll do. We sure as hell can't control him.

Sad. Very sad.
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SergeStorms Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Extortion......
disguised as "diplomacy". :eyes:
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. You should take your act on the road!
:spray:
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. It just reminds me of Chuck and Bob Campbell
With Burt playing the part of China, Chuck is the United States, Bob is Israel, and Jodie is Iran...

Just watch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTeppN1PwH8

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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. if I were china (and it's probably good I'm not...)
I would have simply retorted that if any Chinese workers were killed in such an attack, Israel could be expecting some missiles.

Terrorism is terrorism, whether it's the US' best friend or not, after all.
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lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Good one
Why is it that we feel so strongly about Israel and so little about everyone else?
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. Want to know why we support Israel?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. That explains why so few have a clue about US/Israeli relations....
...and is reflective of the ignorance about I/P.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. countries with an existential issue don't listen even to their friends
you know,the ones that provide them with loans to buy more bombs.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. ouch
our message to China doesn't seem quite so ingenuous when you put it in that light. :P
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. Looks like Cheney is in control.
So we have gained new respect in foreign diplomacy.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. Well seemingly Cheney's lovely "24" people are damn well in charge of the M$M in the USA.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Go ahead, Israel, and reap the whirlwind.
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clarence swinney Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. ISRAEL ARMAGEDDON
Putin and top two Russian Generals warned Israel not to bomb pal Iran.

SWOOSH. 7 million disappear.

Two ICBM with ten warheads each.
Nothing we can but complain.

Pentagon admits we cannot stop Russian ICBM in flight.

Low Heat Emission engines plus many hi-tech decoys

Danger Danger
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Techn0Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Maybe you should keep your Nazi wet dreams to yourself?
My famiy has alrady been through one Holocaust thank you. Why not keep your daydreams to yourself because frankly they are offensive to me.

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yava Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. why do you do this blackmail about your losses?
Why do you guys ALWAYS bring in the loss of your kins as soon as people talk about problems.
Do you think you are the only sub-group of the only chosen people who lost kins or parents to orchestrated massacres?
Why? Why are the losses of the Vietnamese, the Armenians, the Ukrainians, the Africans, the Bosnians and and the Amercian Indians (and sorry but also the Palestinians) and their parents less important than yours?
If not, what do we do, we ask the dead how to run the world of our children?
This kind of tactic is blackmail, manipulation and is disrespectful of the dead.
You are very very higly dishonest.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Dont be so harsh. Clarence swinney's post was pretty perverted
...in an anihil-perverted sort of way
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Israel has nukes,too.
Swoosh 10 million Moscovites disappear.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. I really can't see Russia doing anything.
They have no security agrrement with Iran.

The price of their oil and natural gas would skyrocket.

It would make no sense whatsoever to get involved.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Uh, no.
The silly scare tactics of "armageddon" are lies to keep people in check... 20 warheads on two delivery vehicles would be 1-2 million *tops*. Still a lot, but the whole "any detonation is total annihilation" is just silly.

It's also the same argument Israel uses to threaten anybody who dares to bark back at them for having illegal weapons.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. I doubt anyone will consider it silly IF/WHEN we have a nuclear event. eom
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cowcommander Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. Nice to see a diplomatic approach working
But this also means the wardrums are still rolling. Even Obama expects another war...
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. It's very difficult, reading something like this, to know what is psyops/disinformation,
and what is reality. The corpo-fascist 'news' monopolies are extremely unreliable, especially on a subject like this--with oil and nuclear technology profiteering at its core--and especially the Washington Post. We need to be VERY skeptical of the corpo-fascist press handling of matters like this, and learn to read between the lines, untwist the spin and distortions, and try to fill in the black holes where information should be.

One good way to begin is to assume that whatever you read in the WaPo (or similar propaganda rags--all of the corporate press), the opposite is true. That gets your head turning in the right direction (toward truth and reality). It's not an infallible rule (sometimes you are reading half-truths), but it is helpful.

In this article, for instance, it's probably true--since the article names names--that Dennis Ross and Jeffrey Bader went on a "special mission" to China but it's only possibly true that the "mission" was about Iran/Israel and Israel's "existential" fears. It was more likely about big nuclear powers carving up 'lesser' countries' oil fields and doling out nuclear technology at a great profit. As to "existential" threats, is there any country on earth more threatened than Iran, with a nuke-armed Israel and a nuke-armed U.S. gunning for its oil, and the example of Iraq right next door as to what happens to oil rich countries, without nuclear defenses, who disobey U.S./corporate dictates?

Secondly, it is a complete fiction that Israel would do anything like bombing Iran without U.S. permission. Israel is practically a state of the United States. Like Colombia, with whom it shares many characteristics, it is caught in an endless maze of fratricidal violence and civil war, and is entirely dependent on multi-billions of dollars in U.S. military aid. It is considered militaristic and aggressive and has no friends in its region--much like Colombia--and is run by corrupt war profiteers, like Colombia and like the U.S. itself.

SO, the part about the U.S. warning China that Israel may take independent military action, apart from U.S. wishes, is false. And the "existential" threat to Israel is false in this context. Iran is the country whose existence is immediately threatened. THEY are the ones who DON'T HAVE nuclear weapons with which to deter the fate that Iraq suffered.

Thirdly, IF the "mission" was as stated--to pressure China to side with the U.S. on "Iran's nuclear program" because Israel might bomb Iran if they don't--it is such a sensitive diplomatic matter that you need to ask, why is it being leaked? This seems to be an "official" disclosure of sensitive diplomatic information, so probably personal motives of leakers (backstabbing? sabotage? corporate rivalries?) are not in play. The U.S. government wanted it to be public knowledge. Why?

Applying the rule that the opposite may be true, and combined with some other suspicions that I have, I get this result, in my own mind: China and Russia threatened the U.S., back in circa 2006, when Cheney-Rumsfeld seemed all geared up to nuke Iran, that they would come into it, on Iran's side. This is what got Rumsfeld ousted (by major power players like Daddy Bush, rescuing Junior from Cheney-Rumsfeld's armageddon, and top military brass, who feared an escalating nuclear war).

Round about that time, I read a small blurb in the news that said that China, Russia and (as I recall) India were meeting to discuss how to curtail the U.S. bully (i.e., slaughtering a million innocent Iraqis to steal their oil, and intending to do even worse to Iran, to steal their oil). Unfortunately, I didn't save this very short news item. I kept expecting other reports of this meeting, but there were none. (I think the source was Asian.) I wondered what methods they might be considering to curtail U.S. aggression, and when the Bushwhack financial meltdown occurred in Sept. 2008, I suspected--and I still suspect--that calibrated financial ruin (enough to cripple the U.S. but not hurt China too much--a major U.S. debt-holder) was one of two methods chosen. (--the other being the initial threat to retaliate, if the U.S. nuked Iran, intended for Cheney-Rumsfeld; and the latter, more recent, curtailment--financial crash--intended to prevent their return to power and any Democratic notions of attacking Iran).

So--if that speculation is more or less true--then, upfront, the U.S. is in a situation where China (in cahoots with Russia, india and perhaps others) have curtailed the U.S.--i.e., have limited U.S. options as to getting control of Iran's oil--not the other way around--the U.S. threatening China (and its No. 2 oil source ally, Iran). The picture you get from this WaPo story is of someone who is rather weak threatening to unleash his pit bull on someone else ('if you don't do such and such, my dog will rip your kid's throat out!'). But, in reality, the someone who is being threatened is holding an Ak-47 aimed at the pit bull's head. (China and Russia's capability to wipe out Israel, and/or to incinerate U.S. forces in the Middle East.) I don't think China would believe such a threat, nor yield to it. They hold both nuclear retaliation and U.S. debt powers, as their "aces" over the U.S. Whether they got Cheney-Rumsfeld de-fanged by threatening retaliation, or not, and whether they acted in cooperation with others to de-fund the U.S. (making U.S. aggression less possible), or not, they hold those cards.

What may be really going on is that China has agreed to side with the U.S. in admonishing Iran about its nuclear program, and perhaps advising them to yield up some of their nuclear energy development program to U.S. nuclear energy profiteers (added sugar), in order to bolster up the Obama administration, as part of the larger project of preventing a return of the Bushwhack warmongers. China was obdurate with the Bushwhacks in power. They are kinder to Obama. They won't likely go for sanctions. Iran is their ally. But "wise advice" to a friend, a slap on the hand, Iran yielding on some things, especially as to filthy lucre into U.S. pockets--those are smart things to do, not to fend off an attack by Israel, but to help keep Dick Cheney or comparable madmen (or women) out of the White House.

The other aspect to the story--which WaPo does mention--is the "carving up" of the world's remaining oil reserves. It's kind of an odd item in the article. It says that helping China to become "less dependent" on Iranian oil was part of the discussion--that, for instance, Saudi Arabia might send more oil to China. (You really got a laugh at the U.S. fuss and bother about Iranian democracy--given the sort of CLOSE allies the U.S. has: the filthy rich sheiks of araby, the fascist narco-thugs running Colombia--but I digress...). Why China would care about this--getting off Iranian oil, and becoming dependent on a close US ally for oil--I don't know. Because the U.S. wants it--and, when the U.S. wants oil, big trouble follows? Or because the U.S. wants total political control of the Middle East--with no outlier sovereign nations with their own ideas--and wants another "Shah" in charge of Iran, as essential to that purpose, and China should yield to that desire...why? Nope, I can't think of a good reason.

I haven't finished analyzing this article or this situation. I just want to say that, given all of the above, the reason for the U.S. disclosure of this sensitive diplomatic matter (the U.S. delivering the threat of Israeli bombing of Iran to China)--the kind of thing that can cause a big diplomatic flap--may be to bolster the Obama administration with the Israel Lobby, which is important to keeping Obama in power (and the Bushwhacks out)--important to both China and of course to the Obama administration. In other circumstances, I would say that China could be very angry about such a disclosure. It is a diplomatic no-no. But the disclosers must have felt confident that China would not be offended. Obama needs to be seen as attending to Israel's interests--as being able to accomplish things, on Israel's behalf, that the Bushwhacks couldn't--in order to be approved for another term. This is a feather in Obama's cap, even if it doesn't go very far (China agreeing to sanctions).

I kept thinking, somebody's sabotaging Obama. But I can't get past that this is a White House disclosure. They want this narrative to be out there. So does China (which has never before been inclined to sanction nor even admonish Iran--so it's NOT "cover" for them to do so now--that Iran is under threat from a "rogue" Israel, ergo China needed to do this to protect Iran). What both the U.S. and China apparently wanted was the perception of U.S. strength, in defense of Israel. That's the narrative, anyway. Reality: Neither the U.S. nor Israel will be nuking (or bombing) Iran, largely because of China's aces--its nuclear capability (as to fending off threats to Iran), and its huge economic club over the U.S. (the U.S. debt paper).

More reality: The U.S. wants to insure that only Israel will have nuclear weapons in the Middle East, in order to insure U.S./corporate oil interests in Iraq and elsewhere, and to keep Iran weak, if not to install a U.S. friendly government (not very likely). Its interest in curtailing and demonizing Iran, and preventing it from manufacturing nuclear weapons, has nothing to do with democracy whatsoever (look at Saudi Arabia! --the U.S. would prefer king-tyrants everywhere, if they toady to U.S. corporate/war profiteer interests). And U.S. corporations want, not to stop proliferation of nuclear technology (whether for weapons or energy) but to control it, and above all to profit from it. (They have no loyalty to anyone or anything--neither to the U.S. nor to Israel, nor to democracy.)

China wants an uninterrupted and untroubled flow of oil for its current Great Leap Forward (the greatest "leap" of all), and is at least currently committed to a peaceful world. It does not want to have to contend with the U.S. war machine. So it has to help Obama be successful.


----------------------------------

Here are both the Jerusalem Post and the (original) Washington Post articles:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24067.htm
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Well thought out and presented. :-)
One fact we do know is that *MSM PsyOps, DOD Style* is in full swing.

Imagine this: Somewhere in the bowels of the Pentagon is a large clutch of sweaty over-sexed men/women who have watched too many episodes of "24" FEEDING the M$M their talking points. Yes, but this group is mostly comprised of sweaty middle aged men in "wife-beater" T-shirts talking smack in an effort to pump up the "consent" for Future Military dalliances of widespread DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. :nuke:

How do you like that VISUAL, aye? :evilgrin:


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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Love the "infidel/heathen" one! Thanks for posting!
Yeah, it's a problem, cuz people still believe the 'news' and when they don't believe the 'news,' fall into lassitude because they feel like they lack any power to change things--which of course is one the main purposes of the "corpo-fascist" din of repetitive lies and disinformation.

I find myself arguing with DU posters who don't seem to THINK. They just accept Associated Pukes headlines as real. They seem so dull-minded. But if that's the case--if there are no other agendas at work--and some people have just turned their analytical brains off--I sympathize; I know how that happens; I've been dull-minded, head in the sand, and into denial about the state of our country, with crippling feelings of powerlessness, myself, at times. If you don't question the corpo-fascist 'news,' then it seeps into your brain, with its illusions and delusions, and its goal of shutting democracy down, and you end up feeling like a "lesser citizen"--a slave, a peon. All your dignity and power as a citizen of what was once the greatest democracy of the modern era seems to evaporate. It's hard to crawl out of that hole, and understand how much manipulation and disempowerment is being directed at you and all of us because we are potentially powerful citizens of this once great democracy.
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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Wow. You always have one of the most interesting mirrors in the hall of mirrors. Thanks. n/t.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. it's a very good thing you are here
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showpan Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
36. My first thought on this
was how H.W.Bushco punked Saddam after he informed us that he was going to attack Kuwait. We all know what happened next. I wonder if China and Russia would do the same?

http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=205646
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Countdown_3_2_1 Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
37. I doubt China was surprised.
Anyone who reads a paper can see the writing on the wall.
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