Iran pilgrims stage hajj protest

[demoleft]

Source: afp

AFP - Iranians chanted death to America and Israel on Thursday as some 2.5 million Muslims, drying out after a day of torrential rains, continue their hajj pilgrimage and mass at the site of the prophet Mohammed's last sermon.

Ignoring Saudi warnings against political activity, the Iranians called for Muslim unity against the "enemies" of the faith in their camp at Mount Arafat outside of Mecca.

"Death to America, death to Israel," thousands of Iranians chanted inside a huge tent on the Plain of Arafat.

No Saudi security forces were evident as Ayatollah Muhammed Rishari, the representative of Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, addressed the Iranian delegation.

Read more: http://www.france24.com/en/node/4934510

[JonQ]

1. I'm not sure what the US/israel have to do with the hajj

but yeah, have fun.

[Arctic Dave]

2. Religious wackos are the same everywhere. We have ours do the same thing here.

[JonQ]

3. I can't remember the last time anyone chanted death to islam

at a christmas play.

Yeah we have wackos too, but I think they win out in terms of degree and numbers.

[Taverner]

5. No ours just say "THANK GOD FOR 9/11 and GOD HATES FAGS"

[SkyDaddy7]

6. That's not what I have seen!!!

Every christian I know talks about how we should kill all Muslims...The sad part is our Christian Nut Jobs have the most powerful military on the planet! They don't have to group together and chant meaningless slogans when they can act on their disdain for other religions!

Religions are trash!

[mamaleah]

21. What kind of Christians do you know?

Only the extremists?

Let me guess, all the Christians you know hate Muslims but all the Muslims you know love everyone.

There are asshats in every religion.

[vadawg]

23. +1000, yup and every nationality, race, profession has asshats

generally mankind is full of asshats, it all depends on ones perspective...

[SkyDaddy7]

46. True!

There are asshats in every religion and it is the so-called moderates who give them cover, correct?

I don't see Christians on TV saying we should step back from war with Muslims quite the opposite. I am not saying there might be a minority out there that does not feel this way I just don't see or hear much from them. America is not know as a moderate christian nation around the world, sorry! It is what it is!

[cali]

34. wow. you associate with some very creepy people.

Not one Christian I know expresses anything of the kind. Not a fucking one.

[SkyDaddy7]

47. No, actually I should have said...

All the christians I hear and see on TV are all about being as aggressive as possible against Muslim Nations who we see as a threat. I do not doubt that you may hang out with or be friends with or are part of a minority of Christians who do not take their religion from the Bible.

I take that back, I apologize it just hit me...I have seen one Christian who has broken his silence and is out there speaking out against the "majority" of christians in this nation!

Frank Schaeffer...Admits his awful mistakes and is now trying to right his wrongs! Be nice to see many more join him!


BTW: America is not considered a "moderate" christian nation by the rest of the world! Sorry if that bothers you but it is what it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. Yr very lucky. I know of one or two who do...

All religions have their fair share of extremists who promote hate, and Christianity is not exempt from this despite the attempts from JonQ in this and other threads to make out that Islam is the only religion with whackadoodle extremists...

[JonQ]

42. Yeah I'm pretty sure you're hanging out with some wackos

or fictitious people.

[SkyDaddy7]

48. I made a mistake...

I should not have said "christians I know" but rather all the christians I see on TV and hear speaking out about our wars, torture, our open hatred toward whole groups of people in our country, on and on!

I did make a mistake by saying ALL christians I hear or see...There is one christian out there trying to right his wrongs and speaking out! Frank Schaeffer! Would be a beautiful sight to see more folks join him in a very public way like he is doing.

[LeftishBrit]

55. Maybe you know the wrong Christians?

I'm a devoutly atheist ethnic Jew, with lots of Christian friends and acquaintances, and I don't know a single one who recommends killing all Muslims!

You seem to equate all Christians with the extreme Christian Right - not true at all.

[yava]

13. I can't remember the last time anyone chanted death to islamat a christmas play

Did they chant death to Chistianity?
If not, where is the parallel?
Did you make a mistake or was it attempt to manipulate opinion in a dishonest way?

[JonQ]

41. The comparison was

christians acting in the way muslims acted in this article, using a holy day to chant death to the opposition.

Muslims used the hajj to chant death to america, christians have not used similiar christian holidays to chant death to islam.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. America's a country, Islam isn't...

And I wasn't aware that Islam was the opposition for Christianity. You appear to be making out that Christianity is devoid of extremists who promote hate, which is a pretty silly thing to attempt, given everyone but you would acknowledge they exist....

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. The people in that article aren't the entire religion...

And Islam should no more be judged on their actions as Christianity or Judaism should be judged on the words and actions of their extremists. Also, pointing out that yr wrong isn't a personal attack.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smirkymonkey]

73. Or torrential rain storms.

These people need to get a life. Hating Israel and the US isn't really making thier lives any better, is it?

[Sultana]

4. Bunch of losers

[anonymous171]

7. Another reason why America should abandon Israel. nt

[JonQ]

8. Because of fanatical idiots that don't like us?

Not a valid reason, anymore than people renaming french fries to freedom fries should be a valid reason to dump france as an ally.

edited for spelling

[anonymous171]

9. We could probably eliminate 50% of the anti-American sentiment in the ME if we did that

[JonQ]

10. How much could we eliminate if we nuked tel aviv?

As long as we're abandoning allies to seek the approval of terrorists and fanatics why not go all the way?

[anonymous171]

11. Their fanatics are mad because we are supporting the Jewish fanatics

If withdrew support it would go a long way to protecting American interests. I am a nationalist so I don't really care what happens to another country, especially one as devious as Israel (for an ally they sure love spying on us.)

[Posteritatis]

12. Americans don't get to throw stones on the spying-on-allies angle. (nt)

[vadawg]

15. what about the other US allies, which other ones would you sacrifice

Taiwan, S Korea, The UK, ????? just wondering if its because of the jews that you wold be willing to let israel fall or is it all and any of tyhe US allies...

[boppers]

18. Taiwan called.

Apparently, they're part of China now.

Just keeping you in the loop.

Oh, and most US allies haven't formed and annexed rogue states in defiance of UN and Geneva law.

[vadawg]

19. rofl okay, i guess you better call the taiwan government and tell them that

they seem to be under the impression that Beijing is not calling the shots...

[boppers]

24. Obama made a point about cross-strait dimplomacy.

I guess it got lost in "BowGate".

The point was that Taiwan is part of China, and is also independent, but ultimately, part of China.

[vadawg]

25. yeah in the same way that the US is part of Canada, independant but ultimately

part of Canada. If you cant see the epic fail in your line of thought as it relates to allies of the US then all i can say is its time to stop drinking...

[boppers]

26. I think studying the topic could help you.

You might learn things.

It's somewhat complex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-Strait_relations

[vadawg]

27. lol and how exactly does this effect the fact that taiwan sees itself as seperate from mainland chin

and taiwan is an ally of the US, unless of course you believe that we should basically like the other poster tell our allies to go pound sand they are on their own...

[boppers]

28. "taiwan sees itself as seperate from mainland chin"?

You're posting from a political view, on a political board. So some things make sense.

The PRC and ROC split, well, that's just ideologues.

[vadawg]

29. WTF are you on about, answer a simple question, is taiwan an ally of the US

does the mainland want to incorporate them back into one china? if the mainland thought they could do it militarily would they? If the US tells taiwan to pound sand would this be seen by the mainland as a tacit go ahead?? The whole point i am making is that the US has allies who have mutual defense agreements in place, and im wondering if people are prepared to sacrifice israel then what other allies are they willing to sacrifice...

[boppers]

30. Taiwan is not a nation.

We have agreed to defend their non-nation, if they are attacked.

[vadawg]

31. lol okay, if thats the line you take.

personally i recognise the fact that they have their own government, civil service, elections, military etc... they sure as hell seem to think they are a nation no matter what the PRC may think...

http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassies-of/Taiwan

[boppers]

32. Yeah, turns out that the Kurds are a "nation", too.

Same thing with many US armerind nations.

If only there was some body that could manage such disputes... :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boppers]

36. Ah, facts.

It brings out ad hominem attacks like no other.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

40. Ditch taiwan and s korea

then we would have to learn two fewer national capitals. Beijing and pyongyang.

Ditch the UK because I mean other than standing by us in every war since wwI and providing most of the foreign troops, what have they done for us?

[Jim Sagle]

43. If I were you I'd be anonymous too.

[vadawg]

14. [phone] you have hit the nail on the head, i think this is what some people would happily have

happen,

[boppers]

17. Financial Aid and nuclear weapons are the same thing?

Do you have a similar solution for student loans?

[JonQ]

39. No

my solution for student loans involves chainsaws.

[boppers]

45. Mental note: If broke down by the side of the road...

Do *not* ask JonQ for help.

:rofl:

[mamaleah]

22. That is the dream of many Israel haters.

Don't get them too excited.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. So, withdrawing support for a country equates to nuking it? How very stupid...

No-one said anything about trying to gain the approval of terrorists (in fact, yr the only one I've seen mention terrorists). The US should withdraw support for any country that carries out a belligerant and brutal occupation the way Israel has to the Palestinians.

[JonQ]

56. No, basing our decisions on whether or not people

who scream death to the US, death to Israel will like us is the common thread. No doubt they'd be happy with abandoning Israel, and happier still if we sided with them and attacked Israel.

We could make friends by abandoning or harming our allies, but we should be very careful what kind of "friends" we are making.

Everyone else got it, don't feel too bad though.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. No-one in this thread claimed anything of the sort...

Where do you come up with this complete crap? The same place where you have yr fantasy that everyone's agreeing with you and getting what yr saying?

[JonQ]

68. No one claimed

that we could appease them by "abandoning israel"? You're a joke. Read the thread then come back.

Also, learn how to spell "your".

[leftynyc]

74. How about

withdrawing support for any country that treats their women like shit? How about any country that doesn't allow religious freedom? How about any country that doesn't allow freedom of the press or assembly? Or allows child or forced marriages? You sure you want to travel down this road?

[pundaint]

16. I have heard it opined that the "Death to" this or that does not actually mean to them

what we would mean by the same words. Rather it is more like Death to their behavior and attitude. Is there anyone with inside cultural experience that can verify that?

The Old Testament is pretty tough on non-chosen ME sects, all that smiting for God and such.

Until we humans stamp out xenophobia, we should ban organized religions as a threat to continuation of the species.

[vadawg]

20. nah it pretty much means death to, whether to you as an individual or death to your people, or your

family, you can pretty much take them at their word when they cry death to israel that they would happily have every israeli die in their sleep tonight...

[boppers]

35. Destruction is pretty clear.

"death" to a people means killing all children, and enslaving all adults.

Sometimes they kept the "virgin" girls, sometimes they slaughtered them.

[Nihil]

38. Ummm ... ?

> "death" to a people means killing all children, and enslaving all adults.
> Sometimes they kept the "virgin" girls, sometimes they slaughtered them.

... which of the three Abrahamic religions (who have all done this many times)
were you actually referring to here? Or are we just being selective again?

:hide:

[boppers]

44. I have to pick one?

All three share this legacy.

[JonQ]

49. Reminds me of the people who try to argue that "jihad" really means

a quiet period of introspection, where the devout muslim tries to become closer to allah, and become even more peaceful and tolerant of other religions than he already is. It has nothing to do with any sort of holy war.

Yeah, somebody make sure to mention that to the people blowing up schoolbuses and world trade centers.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I didn't realise you were a scholar of Islam and Arabic!

Sorry, but I'd no more take anything you had to say about Islam as being correct as I would take something anyone at Stormfront said about Judaism to be correct.

Here's some information about the definition of the term 'jihad'. I suggest that if yr ever interested in learning about the religion which you seem to spend a lot of time attacking, there's an Islam forum here at DU where you can ask questions:

Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد‎ ), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims. In Arabic, the word jihād is a noun meaning "struggle." Jihad appears frequently in the Qur'an and common usage as the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of Allah (al-jihad fi sabil Allah)".<1><2> A person engaged in jihad is called a mujahid, the plural is mujahideen.

A minority among the Sunni scholars sometimes refer to this duty as the sixth pillar of Islam, though it occupies no such official status.<3> In Twelver Shi'a Islam, however, Jihad is one of the 10 Practices of the Religion.

According to scholar John Esposito, Jihad requires Muslims to "struggle in the way of God" or "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society."<3><4> Jihad is directed against Satan's inducements, aspects of one's own self, or against a visible enemy.<1><5> The four major categories of jihad that are recognized are Jihad against one's self (Jihad al-Nafs), Jihad of the tongue (Jihad al-lisan), Jihad of the hand (Jihad al-yad), and Jihad of the sword (Jihad as-sayf).<5> Islamic military jurisprudence focuses on regulating the conditions and practice of Jihad as-sayf, the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and thus the term Jihad is usually used in fiqh manuals in reference to military combat.<5><6>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad


Definition: Jihad is the Arabic for what can be variously translated as "struggle" or "effort," or "to strive," "to exert," "to fight," depending on the context. In the West, the word is generally understood to mean "holy war," and the terms are given, inaccurately, exclusively military connotations.
The Quran does call for "jihad" as a military struggle on behalf of Islam. But the Quran also refers to jihad as an internal, individual, spiritual struggle toward self-improvement, moral cleansing and intellectual effort. It is said that Prophet Muhammad considered the armed-struggle version of holy war "the little jihad," but considered the spiritual, individual version of holy war--the war within oneself--as "the great jihad."

http://middleeast.about.com/od/religionsectarianism/g/me080122a.htm

[JonQ]

58. Isn't it funny how to criticize christianity all you need is a forum

but to criticize islam you have to be an islamic scholar with decades of experience, speak only arabic and have memorized the koran?

Also, if people evoke christian or jewish beliefs prior to committing terrorist acts it is because of their religion. But if they use islamic beliefs it is because of a variety of reasons, but most definitely not religion?

And when a certain former president used the word crusade it was proof of a religious war, but when they use the arabic/muslim equivalent it means nothing?


Hilarious.

And please, inform them that they have been misusing the word jihad for centuries, I'm sure they are eager to hear that.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. Well, yr the one who's claiming that scholars and Arabic speakers are wrong...

And it turns out you had no idea what you were talking about, which makes me wonder why you think anyone should take anything you say about a religion you clearly have serious issues about seriously....

Instead of continuing to argue about the meaning of the term jihad, click on the links you were supplied and read what they mean..

And yr breaking up into total incoherence. Who am I supposed to be informing that they've misused the term? Muslims? They haven't....

[JonQ]

65. Ahahaha

yeah, they need to be told what it means by you.

So when they declare jihad, then blow up some school bus in the gaza strip that's because they have an incomplete understanding of islam.

You're funny, you should have your own show.

[LeftishBrit]

54. Jihad has many meanings

It literally means 'struggle' and can be used to refer to struggling against one's own sins; verbal testifying to one's faith; metaphoric fighting against injustice; or violent warfare.

Perhaps Muslim terrorists and warmongers *should* be reminded that many Muslim scholars have considered that 'the greater Jihad' *does* mean struggling against one's sins and for one's own soul.

Just as warmongers in the name of Christianity should be reminded of the commandment against murder.

Interestingly, the word 'crusade' has similar ambiguity: the Crusades were monstrously violent wars, but the word is nowadays often used metaphorically to refer to struggles against personal or social evils. When I was a child, some of my friends belonged to a local Christian club called 'the Crusaders' and they were not being required to fight wars.

[JonQ]

59. And yet, if a western politician/religious leader were to use the word "crusade"

in reference to the islamic world, no one will come out and say "well actually crusade has many meanings and does not necessarily mean a war" in defense of said leader.

Why do you suppose there is only ambiguity in the one term when in reality it should be applied equally? (especially since only one side is currently using to evoke an actual holy war).

[Violet_Crumble]

63. When it's used against the Islamic world by Bush, it only had the one meaning...

What do you think he was defining it as? The word crusade does have other secondary meanings, but the example yr using is one where only RWers would try to argue it was used innocently and meant something else. The difference is that you've tried to claim in this thread that there are no other definitions of jihad other than the very narrow one you came up with, while now yr turning round and arguing that a word like crusade has other meanings...

[JonQ]

66. When bush says it the meaning is clear

when muslim leaders chant it amidst cries of "death to america" the meaning is vague, open to interpretation.

I'm not sure why you are so intent on defending people who indiscriminately kill civilians for religious reasons. That doesn't seem progressive to me.

Ask yourself: would a self described christian "crusader" who blows up an abortion clinic receive this same level of defense from you? You see I think all religious extremism is a bad thing, you seem to be selective in which to condemn.

[LeftishBrit]

64. It would depend on whether they were actually advocating war.

E.g. a religious leader could be referring to missionary work to convert Muslims to Christianity. Not that I approve of that, but it's not war.

I don't deny that 'jihad' is often currently used in the violent sense; e.g. the group 'Islamic Jihad'. However, that doesn't mean that every time Muslims use the word, they are advocating war/terrorism.

[JonQ]

67. Every time

a christian uses the word crusade it is assumed to be violent in nature, at least on here. So I would advocate giving muslims the same consideration.

[LeftishBrit]

70. Every time a Christian uses the word crusade it is assumed to be violent in nature?

News to me. I usually come across it in the context of people campaigning intensely against something they don't like: 'crusades' against alcohol, drunk driving, smoking, bullying, pornography, abortion, whatever.

If BUSH uses the term, I assume it to be violent in nature. But then if Bush uses the term 'good morning', it is probably violent in nature!

[JonQ]

71. Ha! fair enough

It just seems to me that the word crusade evokes a stronger response on here than jihad.

[hayu_lol]

72. The OP listed the Iranians as doing all this...

not Muslims in general. Maybe some posters didn't read very carefully.