Honduras vote to sideline president, enshrine coup

[G_j]

Source: AP

Honduras vote to sideline president, enshrine coup

By ALEXANDRA OLSON
Associated Press Writer

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (AP) -- Sunday's election will likely accomplish what the plotters of a coup set out to do five months ago: end the political career of leftist President Manuel Zelaya and replace him with a more moderate leader from Honduras' establishment.

And Washington, which had vowed not to recognize the elections unless Zelaya was reinstated, now appears to have decided it has few options but to do exactly that.

"In the end, the coup won," said Heather Beckman, a Latin America analyst with the New York-based Eurasia Group. "It was a bad thing and it shouldn't have happened, but in the end there wasn't anything anyone could do."

Millions of poor Hondurans drew hope from Zelaya's left-leaning policies in a nation long ruled by a wealthy elite. But they now have no presidential candidate to represent them; the only one who backed Zelaya dropped out of the race last month with little support, saying his participation would condone the coup.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_HONDURAS_COUP?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-11-25-17-12-10

[icee2]

1. Contrary to the AP's perspective, Zelaya is a moderate...

and the Honduran establishment is extremely right-wing.

[L. Coyote]

24. Previous LATEST thread: Threats, Detentions, Persecutions Prior to Honduran Polls

Threats, Detentions, Persecutions Prior to Honduran Polls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4157480

Honduras regime seeks to disarm citizens ahead of polls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4155309

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. He was term limited out anyway

[harmonicon]

8. yeah, so why does it matter?

Shit, Lincoln assassination? It only mattered because presidential term limits didn't exist yet!! If there had been a two term limit at that time, Lincoln's death would be a foot note, because at that point he was "term limited out anyway", right?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. You missed my point

The article stated that at least in part Zelaya's political career was ending due to the election. It ignored the mandatory term limit and inferred he could have remained in office. His party is still fielding candidates and may well remain in power.

[harmonicon]

19. he was exiled for breaking ranks with his party, so the fact that "his" party...

may remain in power is meaningless.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. His party is the most liberal in Honduras and the majority in their legislature and supreme court

which tossed him from office and replaced him with the next in line under their constitution. Lots of theories as to why though they tend to drift into two camps...Zelaya was threatening the elite or Zelaya has actively violating the constitution and heading down the strongman route. Either way his exile was illegal. The rest of it is not something we will decide here and to me there are dirty hands on all sides.

I do believe the elections will be a step in the right direction in terms of clearing up who is the rightful leader in Honduras. They were already scheduled and Zelaya could not of run since he was termed out. Effectively they are a restart and instead of OAS etc boycotting, they should be subjecting them to the strictest international scrutiny. After inauguration day, Zelaya will have little legitimacy left. I hope the new leader has the good sense to declare amnesty for all and Honduras can heal. This also appears to be where the Obama administration is heading.

I checked my prior post and to my surprise the body was not there. DU was hiccuping for me at the time, I should have checked and edited it. It said pretty much what this one does.

[harmonicon]

28. "a restart"? How?

These are election held by an illegal dictatorial regime. They have eliminated dissenting media and murdered those who protested against their power-grab. Elections held under these circumstances can never be legitimate, especially as Micheletti has already stated that he would take back power if he isn't happy with their outcome. Make no mistake, this is an election in name only, held for the purpose of legitimizing the coup.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. What would you propose...a continuation of what there is now?

The elections are a constitutional mandate as is the term and term limits for the presidency. Neither Zelaya or Micheletti is in the running. Well supervised elections are about the only viable way out.

I have not heard what you quoted from Micheletti previously. Where would I find it?

BTW, this was just posted: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4161444, with a title of "Honduran high court rules against Zelaya's return"

[harmonicon]

38. discussions of things such as "constitutional mandate" are meaningless at this point.

You can not assume that once there has been a coup, the rest of the public sector would just function as normal. Would an election mean anything in the US if people who voiced opposition to the party in power were murdered on the street or in their own homes? When the media is shut down?

About the Micheletti quote, it comes from here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x26662
Sure, that could be read as what he would do THIS WEEK, it is abundantly clear that he has no problem seizing power if he doesn't like the elected president. Why would he change now?

I agree that well supervised elections would be a way out of this, but the international community has already stated that they will not recognize the outcome of these elections, and they will not be well supervised (apart from supervision by the coup leaders), and a large sector of the population will boycott them. This will not be a fair election. The fact that it is being carried out at all is a complete joke.

[nyy1998]

44. Even if there was a 2-term limit

Lincoln's death would've been huge news considering he was just starting his 2nd term. But that's besides the point.

[David__77]

3. I think this is an incorrect analysis.

In fact, there will be a dark cloud hanging over the Honduran state until there is a reform that would prohibit these coups d'etat in the future. In effect, it is a fascist state, voting or not. The constitution enshrines the rule of a tiny clique over the broad majority.

[BunkerHill24]

4. You mean the "coup d'etat" supported by the State Department?

[David__77]

5. Yes, I do.

That is the coup I am referring to.

[BunkerHill24]

6. Thank you...we agree. n/t

[boppers]

7. What portion(s) of the constitution are you referring to?

An independent judiciary?
The provisions limiting executive power?
The ability of congress to remove a sitting president with a 2/3rds vote?

edit: typo

[EFerrari]

10. Kidnapping a sitting president is not legal in Honduras. n/t

[boppers]

11. Arresting a sitting president is legal, however.

Also legal: Removing a person from a government building after they step down from the presidency by committing illegal acts.

If it was "kidnapping", what was the ransom note? How come he was released? How has he been able to hold press conferences?

[EFerrari]

12. I'm going down this bullshit road with you again. Have a good night. n/t

[Downwinder]

14. Under the Honduran Constitution, the Military does not have police powers. n/t

[boppers]

15. What provision are you referring to?

I might be missing one. The number of the provision should be enough.

[EFerrari]

40. You are so full of it. Multiple posters have explained this to you at length

on mulitple occasions.

It is not LEGAL to kidnap an elected president, toss him out in a foreign country and then draw up back dated documents to cover your ass. It's also not legal to forge said president's signature to a fake letter of resignation.

The Honduran legislature doesn't have the authority to interpret the its constitution as they claim they did to come to this decision they didn't come to until AFTER the coup.

It's obvious bullshit from beginning to end and you, boppers, are on the wrong side of history. Enjoy.

[boppers]

43. I've read their Constitution.

I assume you have as well.

There was no "kidnapping", that's propaganda. When the police arrest you, it is not "kidnapping". It is an arrest.

The forced exile after the arrest looks entirely unconstitutional, however.

As far as the legislature interpreting the constitution, that kind of falls on the courts.

Who also also threw Zelaya out.

He doesn't have the legislature, the courts, or the military, and after they all refused to treat him as a dictator, they got rid of him.

[L. Coyote]

45. You are makng false statements to argue your position. That's pure BULLSHIT and LIES.

The police did NOT arrest Zelaya. Hooded and armed military broke down his house door in the night
and forced him out of he country in his pajamas at gunpoint, via the military base where US Southern Command operates.
And THEREAFTER the coupsters presented a forged resignation letter to Congress, and Congress acted to appoint Micheletti.
This was a military kidnapping and coup in every sense of the word,
albeit a clever one with plenty of forethought to ensure its success.

And, throwing out the idea that he was a dictator well that just pure BULSHIT, and you know it too!!

Can't you go disrupt that freeper forum with you lies instead.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. The claim is the army did it at the direction of their supreme court

assuming you believe their current governments version of events.

[L. Coyote]

27. Boppers, if I capture you at gunpopint with a hooded mask and don't send a ransom note

it is good to know I can't be accused of kidnapping.

I'll be breaking down your door in the wee hours of the morning and putting you on a plane
to Tegucigalpa via the US Southern Command military base in Honduras :rofl:

[bitchkitty]

30. It's so cute the way you play the moron.

But of course, we know you have some intelligence. You can read and write, and you're very good at memorizing the talking points.

[Flaneur]

36. Fuck these fascist coup supporters.

You can go arond splitting legal hairs all you want, but we all know this was a dirty move by the right to entrench itself in power. I stand with the left and the Honduran people, and I don't particularly give a shit about your twisted rationalizations.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. The claim is that he was not the sitting president, having been removed by their supreme court

Not everyone buys into that, but that is their story and they are sticking to it.

[L. Coyote]

26. Using a forged resignation letter to get a Congressional vote is also a crime.

Somehow people seems to forget all the illegal details and spout the ones the Pinocheletti GOPistas are using as talking points!

[L. Coyote]

25. Indeed, this article is unworthy of a lead for a DU thread. It is a pile of BS.

The premise that the election will enshrine the coup is wrong.
The election is only being accepted except by the Golpistas, the Pinochelettis and Obama.
Latin America remains a united voice denouncing the conduct of an election under a politically oppressive Junta.

Nothing will ever enshrine this coup except perhaps the Fires in Hell where this murderous regime will burn. (They believe in God, Hell and no morning after pills, not me!)

[Peace Patriot]

9. "...there wasn't anything anyone could do." That is total & complete bullshit! nt

[flamingdem]

13. What a frikin' ass of an analyst

There were many things the US could have done and not done and in the end they really blew it. This is pathetic and and anti-democratic. What the hell are we doing supporting right wing thugs who performed a coup??????????????

Obama, enough of the pretty nightlife. Get your ideals back and learn something about Latin America or Hillary will lead you around by the one who no doubt leads her, the right wing Cuban American lawyer wife of her brother.

>>>>"In the end, the coup won," said Heather Beckman, a Latin America analyst with the New York-based Eurasia Group. "It was a bad thing and it shouldn't have happened, but in the end there wasn't anything anyone could do."

[boppers]

16. It was a left wing action, against a left wing autocrat.

The left wing threw the guy out, and called for elections.

Which the autocrat declared undemocratic, because he wasn't in power, and he didn't get to control the election.

It's totally messed up, it's soviet politics, with each corrupt group pointing fingers, and claiming to represent "the people", while trying to control the people.

edit:homonym typo

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. Minor points...

Yes Zelaya's own party tossed him from office and the next bubba in the constitutional line of succession replaced him (the VP had resigned to run for office).

However, they did not schedule elections, they are being held on the cycle set by the Honduran constitution. Zelaya would not have been allowed to run again, and was going to be replaced regardless.

I totally agree there are dirty hands on all sides.

[L. Coyote]

29. What a crock of steaming bullshit this is. The JUNTA is ultra right-wing Republicans

with death squads leftovers from the Reagan/Bush years when Honduras was the hub of illegalities for US Republican criminals in the White House.

Yeah, if raising the minimum wage is "autocratic" :rofl: count me in as the first member of the Autocrats :rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Really? They are Zelaya's own party members.

And the most liberal in Honduras (relative to what else is there). They also control the legislature and the supreme court.

What you are effectively claiming is that Zelaya himself was ultra-right wing and then somehow saw the light of progressiveness.

[L. Coyote]

33. You might want to review the actual events and history of what happened.

The military threw him out, the Junta used a forged resignation letter, and the "parties" in Honduras are not a right-left schism like in the USA. The Oligarchy was unwilling to allow things like morning after pills and a minimum wage increase to disrupt their Conservative world.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. You left out the action of their supreme court, then and now, packed with his party members

Which (according to some) removed him from office and indicted him. There is a new post here on DU this AM that says earlier this week the court stood behind its actions.

The only hard truth in all of is is that neither side is being straight up or 100% truthful. Both have dirty hands

[EFerrari]

39. There is no crime or violation of actual Honduran law

that can be pinned on Zelaya

So, no, both sides are not dirty.

[boppers]

41. You know there's 18.

They might be unfairly pinned, but they exist.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. The ultimate authority on Honduran law indicted him, and removed him from office.

Whether you or I consider it fair or not really does not matter.

In a parallel example: Many countries abhor the death penalty and declare the US use of it unfair and inhumane. But since the SCOTUS, who is the ultimate authority on US law, upholds it, that is US law and the US carries it out.

[Flaneur]

37. Giveit up. The "left wing" threw Zelaya out!?!?

Are you referring to the elite political party to which he belonged?

Are you referring to the left-wing chamber of commerce types?

Are you referring to the left-wing military who executed the coup?

You're a bad joke.

[boppers]

42. His own party and courts threw him out.

They're what counts as "left wing" down there.

[fascisthunter]

46. you are straight up, a liar

disgusting

[Algorem]

23. what kind of voting machines did they use?

[L. Coyote]

34. New LATEST thread: Honduran high court rules against Zelaya's return

Honduran high court rules against Zelaya's return
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4161444