Obama pushes math, science education

[TomCADem]

Source: CNN

Obama said Monday that the U.S. needs to restore the nation's leadership in educating children in math and science to meet future challenges, and he announced a new Educate to Innovate Campaign.

He told how President Lee Myung-bak explained that demanding parents are South Korea's biggest education problem.

"Even if somebody is dirt poor, they are insisting that their kids are getting the best education," Obama recalled the conversation, sounding almost whimsical in describing Lee's biggest education problem as parents wanting excellent schools for their children.

* * *
American students rank 21st in science and 25th in math compared with students around the world, he said, putting U.S. at a disadvantage on vital issues such as medicine, energy and security.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/23/obama.science/

---

As noted in this thread, many in the right wing would even question public schools as an infringement on liberty:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7066953

[sakabatou]

1. Huzzuh!

I'm glad there's a push on science.

[BREMPRO]

2. after watching that crowd of Palin supporters interviewed in OH, ANY education would be welcome.

science, math, SOCIAL STUDIES, HISTORY, LOGIC, REASON? It's like they stopped paying attention in 4th grade.

[SPedigrees]

4. +1

[Mithreal]

6. Worry about how history and social studies are taught, Mr. President.

[SPedigrees]

3. Science and math are valuable skills, but a grasp on the English language wouldn't hurt either.

It is bad enough that so few Americans are bi-lingual, but at least they could be taught the basics of pronunciation, grammar, sentence structure, etc in our native language. Our educational system has slipped along with our health care and standard of living.

[Igel]

19. "they are insisting that their kids are getting the best education"

To which my reply is, If they insist their kids are getting the best education, what's the problem? Is Obama going to tell them they're wrong, and their kids *aren't* getting the best education?

Oh. Perhaps he intended a subjunctive. "They are insisting that their kids get the best education." Then it would be irrealis, and, well, coherent in standard English.

[Mithreal]

5. Interesting picture from the article

[Captain Hilts]

7. All the participating kids are Asian or boys....nt

[murielm99]

13. We encountered that fifteen or more years ago with our

children.

Our kids were involved in the spelling bees, academic bowls and math competitions in our area. Sometimes they were the only non-Asian American kids in the competitions. Many of their friends were off at soccer practice or gymnastics. I have nothing against sports, but it is over emphasized in our schools.

My oldest is now a classically trained musician. When we went to music competitions, I could have sworn that every Asian American kid in the area played the violin.

I don't resent this. But I do worry that many of us do not have our priorities in order for our children.

[Captain Hilts]

23. Yes. Kids in forensics, honor society should also wear 'letter' jackets. nt

[murielm99]

31. I suggested that to our principal about seven years ago.

He had a lame excuse for me as to why not.

I suggested it after one of our local kids (not my child) one the national MathCounts competition in Washington D.C. The kid was a seventh grade math wizard.

I suggested it again when my daughter was part of a group that won first prize in a statewide science competition. She was just happy to beat out her brother. His group came in second. I suggested it again when the same daughter was named all-conference for the academic team, unanimously, two years in a row.

I did not want this only for my kids. Another boy my daughter's age won a prestigious math competition the same year. My kids were just about the only ones in town who understood what he had accomplished. At least the boy was able to get a good scholarship out of his accomplishment.

We had good schools here at that time. I am not sure what is happening now. Many of the best teachers have retired. The young ones with promise are not staying here any more. Maybe that is the situation with education in many places. If communities do not demand more, and if we are not rewarding our students with recognition AND JOBS, this country is in trouble.

[Captain Hilts]

42. I'd go over his head to the school board. In the city I went to high school

well over half of HS principals had been football coaches.

Now, it takes great managerial ability to be a football coach.

But it keeps the focus on...football and on male students. I hated how sexist HS was.

But folks that win forensics awards, compete for the school in forensics, debate, one act plays, honor society, should most certainly get school letter jackets.

Band gets letter jackets, why shouldn't debate, etc.? Think of all the famous/successful people were in school drama and debate.

[midnight]

39. Our child was one of the few not asian playing the violin who went to Carnegie Hall.

I was at a park a few days ago, and was talking to a mom who's child's supplemental education was extensive and pricey. She was grateful the school was going the extra mile with her child. I remarked that I was happy the school was doing this, and thought that each child should be receiving that guidance. Create more jobs, use more teachers and give them smaller class sizes. How hard can that be?

[WriteDown]

48. Maybe its not sports that are overemphasized. Seems that per your post....

violins are overemphasized by Asian-Americans. :)

[Cha]

12. Thanks.

[Roland99]

8. Science is teh work of teh debbil!!!

[nxylas]

9. Republicans immediately pass resolution condemning math

They've always been anti-science of course.

[zalinda]

10. It really doesn't matter how much education

our children receive, if there aren't any jobs. How many in this country now, have college degrees and can't find a job. Unless something drastic changes, getting an education will only make you realize that this country has fucked you over. There is a reason that there is a saying, "that ignorance is bliss".

zalinda

[Fumesucker]

14. Yes, that was my thought also..

What jobs, exactly, are we going to be training our children and grandchildren to do?

Our government seems to be hell-bent on helping the corporations export any decent paying jobs to other countries.

[girl gone mad]

18. Yes.

You can read my post below, and learn why I don't regret leaving academic Physics to start my own business.

I know literally a dozen top shelf Physicists - the best and the brightest, with gold plated resumes - who are competing for what amounts to a low paying job with long hours and no future. I would not encourage my child to go into math and science if he wasn't completely passionate and committed to these subjects or didn't possess strong natural ability.

[Iowa]

20. Don't worry about jobs...

Obama is about to create an abundance of new jobs in Afghanistan.

[OhioChick]

26. You hit the nail on the head. n/t

[bluestateguy]

11. Math and science are fine, but let's not forget history and English either

Too many kids in school never learn how to write or anything about our history.

And math and science is not for everyone.

[Igel]

21. Much less of a problem.

If you look at the standardized scores--whether more recent tests or the national test going back a few decades--you'll see the same pattern. English does fairly well in high school; lots of English majors; a fair number of English PhDs. Then look at math and science, and you see students doing less well.

That we do poorly in math and science, and science isn't for everyone, is obvious. Still, you shouldn't see PhD candidates in the humanities preening themselves and saying how much smarter they are than "engineers"and people that do "science stuff"--also PhD candidates in one breath, and then asking how I could possibly stand to microwave something before eating it. "Don't you know that when you digest the food the microwaves are released and cook your stomach?"

Oddly, you *don't* need to remove those whose first language is English from the pool to see the disparity. Keep test scores for the kids whose English sucks in the average. The average is *still* pretty good for English. . . er, "Language arts." Then consider that for math you really don't need the same level of fluency in English. Or even for science. So ELLs should have an easier time in science and math and help pull the average up.

As one textbook put it: The US competes fairly well internationally in math and science until our kids hit puberty. Then, because they get to pick their own courses and make their own decisions, we think that non-academic pursuits are important, we have simplified the textbooks, and we keep emphasizing understanding "concepts" instead of making the concepts fact-based and detailed, our kids fall behind. Even though our per student education spending is higher than most countries'.

What's surprising is that our kids' math and science scores haven't really declined over the last 40 years. Of course, the average hides a lot of trends among different groups, as well.

[Odin2005]

29. Left-brained kids are getting screwed by touchy-feely educational methods.

IMO it's no accident that Asperger's Syndrome and other forms of high functioning Autism have become issues just as the results of an increasingly right-brain centered view of education has become dominant.

[wordpix]

52. not true - autism has nothing to do with a "right-brain centered view of education"

No, there is something abnormal in these students' brains that leads to the diagnoses of Asperger's or autism. I've taught these students, and society's "view of education" has nothing to do with their disabilities. Their brains do. In one example, the student had a difficult birth and as a newborn was given some drug that may have impacted her early brain development, on top of lack of oxygen and other problems at the birth. Her brain never developed normally and she's diagnosed with autism. Education had nothing to do with it.

[Odin2005]

55. I have Asperger's myself and I must strongly disagree.

Nowdays the shy, quiet nerdy kid gets points knocked off because of "lack of group participation" or some such BS.

[Deja Q]

57. Not a bad point. Not everybody's brain is geared toward the same concepts.

I have a BRILLIANT art teacher. In the arts, in the pragmatic aspects, the lot. He knows how to count. But he can't write worth a damn.

Right-brain and left-brain people work differently in general.

The left-brainers are usually more logical and scientific. Problem-solving.

http://www.funderstanding.com/content/right-brain-vs-left-brain

Everybody has traits from both sides of the brain. But not everybody can be a top physicist. Are those people then left to rot?

Buzzwords like "we need to improve math and science" are not incorrect, per se, but they are buzzwords in catchphrases. With no substance. WHY do they need to be improved? HOW will the improved scores help? The real questions. Not blanket statements.

I don't think Asperger's Syndrome is entirely about the ambient social environment. Seems to be more genetic, or a possible birth defect of sorts... It would be a paradox that the social environment would cause AS to form, especially as AS involves the inability to fully fathom and respond to body language and other cues. I'm a couple shy of 40 years myself and I still have problems figuring out body language, not understanding why somebody won't say "hi", or if I've offended them. No doubt I'm seen as a real oddball too. I clam up in public as a defense mechanism. Even with people I *do* know and am very good acquaintances with. Ambient social environment as a kid had me learning to be defensive fairly quickly. But the root cause is beyond societal structure. I do my best to conform and ironically I know it's not easy for other people to be around me either.

[Jkid]

15. I want to play devil's advocate

Korean's are high on its emphasis on math and science because of its "teach to the test" model of education. The sole purpose of the education system is to get it's students to college.

But also, think about how valuable those math and science skills are really useful if you are not in a job related to math or science, in this country?

[dugaresa]

45. I agree with you. Many countries have a different approach to education that is more training

and not understanding.

They train to task and do not train to think.

[girl gone mad]

16. There need to be jobs to support those educated in these fields.

Most of the Physics/Math grads I went to school with ended up taking jobs on Wall Street, going to med school, or doing work completely unrelated to the degrees they earned.

I know many brilliant engineering/science graduates who slaved away working part time for very low pay doing whatever work the university would give them. Right now, I know a dozen genius level Physicists who are competing against each other for one post-doc position that pays $50K a year and will expire in 3 years. If you're not at the absolute top of your game, forget about even applying.

I left the field to pursue a business opportunity because the pay, hours and time spent doing nonsense busy work were not worth it to me anymore, and I absolutely love Physics with every fiber of my being. I till spend my free time solving partial diff. eqs., reading the arXiv and working through any quantum or particle book I can get my hands on.

Math and science education is not an end unto itself. There has to be strong manufacturing class to support the engineers and scientists of this country. One of my best friends was from the Ukraine, where gifted mathematicians and scientists took jobs as janitors, taxi drivers and hookers. He said he padded his resume like crazy to get the hell out of there and earn a job teaching math in America.

In my experience as a tutor, most students don't even enjoy these subjects. Even my Asian students didn't particularly love math or science, but they were pressured by their parents to work extremely hard. What is the point of asking students to spend years pursuing an education in a field they don't really care for, with the end result being that if they are very gifted and lucky, they can find an insecure job with mediocre pay, and if they are just above or at average, they'll find a private sector job they could have done with much less training anyway?

[Juche]

35. Pretty much

Academia is mostly a dead end. And $50k is high for a postdoc, most of the postdocs I've known made about 30k for a 70 hour workweek. And that is after making 20k for a 70 hour workweek in grad school.

I have considered doing a PhD in neuroscience, however I know if I do that it will harm my job prospects and I'd have to do it strictly for fun and personal fulfillment knowing it will harm my (currently non-existent) career. I have heard with scientific fields it is best to stop at the bachelors level. A masters offers little/nothing above a bachelors and a PhD over qualifies you for jobs.

People who go into science go into it because they love it, not because there are tons of high paying jobs solving the world's problems out there for the taking. The world has tons of problems, but there aren't high paying jobs out there to solve those problems. Hell not even high paying jobs, just jobs with living wages would be fine.

I don't know how the Asians who are being forced to study science by their families expect to make it as healthy, developed, fully functioning citizens. The idea that the US should emulate SE Asian educational culture is not something I support. We barely take science seriously in the US and we still have a glut of talented STEM workers who can't find jobs or use their talents constructively. Forcing 9 year olds to compete with each other until they have depression and anxiety won't fix anything. Scientific literacy is important, but you do not need an undergraduate or graduate degree to accomplish that. Nor do you need to force 11 year olds to study endlessly either to accomplish that. I was watching a video on exercise and cognition, and the author of a book claimed that just having kids do physical exercise for 30~ minutes in the morning increases their test scores to the point where they were beating Asian nations. So riding your kids and forcing them to compete until they are prone to mental health problems may not even be necessary to promote scientific literacy. Maybe just minor nutritional and lifestyle changes added to current academics could accomplish that.

Anyway, you are right. It is a deeply screwed up situation. The people who love math and science go into them knowing their career prospects will probably not be good and at the same time there are tons of people studying those fields not because they love them but because they have family pressure to be 'successful'.

So much wasted talent.

[swilton]

17. It's not the math and science stupid

We have sent a man to the moon - but we still don't have peace on earth...

We need the humanities - I mean other countries know foreign languages, know more about US history and speak better Inglish than most adult Americans I've heard interviewed at these tea-bagger parties and on Foxx News - - Give me some of that old time intellectualism!

[kestrel91316]

22. There he goes, FAILING again.

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

30. The English majors in this thead obviously think he is.

:banghead:

[Mithreal]

32. Haven't seen anyone scream failing. Whatever.

[girl gone mad]

34. Encouraging people to spend years studying subjects for which there are no jobs..

seems futile to me. Especially when they have no interest or innate ability in those fields.

My majors were Physics and Astronomy/Cosmology.

I am all for increasing scientific literacy, but pushing more kids into the sciences doesn't solve anything. It simply creates a glut of mediocre science and engineering grads who will be lucky to become coffee baristas or do IT support.

[Mithreal]

37. Mine was in Biology and I am a former high school Biology and Chemistry teacher

My wife still teaches and is the building's science team leader.

As if English majors wouldn't have insight. That was so ignorant.

[kestrel91316]

46. Do I ALWAYS need the sarcasm thingie??

[No Elephants]

40. No, I'm sure the speech was successful. He often speaks well.

[kestrel91316]

47. I really have to remember to use the sarcasm thingie for the benefit of the sarcasm-impaired....

[ozone_man]

24. Another unfunded mandate?

Unfortunately, we have spent our wad on bailing out Wall Street, most notably Goldman Sachs. And funding the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war, and a health care bill that bails out private insurance companies,....

Well, you get the idea, there is nothing left to fund education. It goes to servicing our debt of 12 Trillion now. Obama is living up to the image that Democrats are big spenders. I thought Bush was the contradiction, but no. Clinton signed the bill to dissolve Glass Steagall and here we are, with Democrats leading the way.

So, Obama has reappointed Bernanke, selected Geithner, Summers,... You pays your money and you takes your choice. He has made his bed with the fleas of Wall Street, so gets to lie in it.

[madrchsod]

25. better get rid of arne

obama will have to find someone that actually knows something about education.

oh ya, obama will have to end his wars and cut the military. we`d have enough money to supply the teachers with the hardware to catch up to the rest of the world.

chances of any of this is nil....

[Odin2005]

27. Good. The scientific illiteracy in this country is appalling.

As all is shown on DU by the anti-vaccine and technophobic whining and new age nonsense.

[Unvanguard]

28. ...but does this have long-term effects?

Does it last through college? Are the people who actually go into mathematics and science inferior to their international counterparts?

[Juche]

33. Is there market demand for STEM trained workers?

Last I heard trained engineers or people working in IT (who generally have math and physics background) are having trouble. I have a science degree and am laid off.

Scientific literacy is important, and I am all for making the nation more scientifically literate with more comprehension of STEM fields. However there are not a ton of decent jobs out there that require educations and talents in the STEM fields. And the entrepreneurs who are going to create those opportunities are going to study STEM fields anyway.

Also I do not think we should be emulating the South Koreans wrt educational tactics. They ride their kids hard, and I do not think it is worth it. I have known too many Asians when I was in college who were just studying what their family wanted them to study. I once read the rates of anxiety, depression and feelings of emptiness among Indian and Asian youth who had been ridden by their parents to become successful (doctors, dentists, scientists, pharmacists, etc) was troublesome. There is more to life than money and impressing the neighbors.

Find people's innate talents and interests, and help them get ahead and contribute to society based on those. Trying to make all the kids compete with each other in math and science until they suffer psychological problems is not something I'd support. Some people will always be shitty mathematicians, but they will be amazing musicians.

Honestly I think schools (and the adult world in general) need education in rhetoric, critical thinking, interpersonal communication, debate, logic, etc as much and more than they need training in science.

[Juche]

36. Also, an education in science does not lead to groundbreaking work

Since we are on the subject of STEM fields and facing global challenges (which is why Obama wants to increase students educated in STEM fields) you should consider what happens to people trained in STEM fields (at least the ones I know).

I have an undergrad degree in science, as did all my contractor coworkers. However we worked in quality control in a dog food factory. We made media broth and did basic lab tech work. We were not fighting cancer (I actually did do research on fighting cancer in college, but that is another story), we were using our understanding of chemistry and biology to work in a pet food factory.

Of my 4 labmates, 2 are considering PhDs in science. One went to an elite high school designed for people talented in math and science and another wants to become a chiropractor.

But our science background didn't matter for the job. The other lab technicians (who had been there for years) had college degrees in business and social work. One had a degree in chemistry and the fourth wasn't even a college graduate. Of the 7-8 lab technicians who worked in that lab at various points (we were lab assistant contract workers, the permanent workers were technicians), I think 1 had a degree in science. The other 7 either didn't have degrees or their degrees were in unrelated fields. However they ran the quality control lab fine.

So here is my point. Most people who study STEM fields either do not use them directly (they go into medicine, vet, pharmacy or dental school which is where the majority of my classmates went after graduation). If they do stay in STEM fields they have trouble finding jobs and/or the jobs they find are not jobs that require the kind and level of training they have. I did not need an undergrad degree in science to do my old job. But it was a requirement to get in the door.

I would say the % who study STEM fields who end up going into fields that actually require advanced training in STEM fields is fairly low. The % who end up doing work that makes the world a better place and confront global challenges is even lower.

My point is there seems to be an assumption that we need a workforce trained in STEM fields to confront global challenges. What I'm saying is the % of people who are trained in STEM fields who use those talents to confront global challenges is small. Many people either go into different fields or get jobs where they do not need the training they got. And that is assuming you can find a job. There are tons of unemployed people with degrees in STEM fields.

Creating an environment that is more conductive to entrepreneurship in STEM fields is a good idea. I would also support more X-prize type rewards to promote innovation and development. The problem isn't a lack of scientists, it is a lack of jobs designed to fight the world's problems for them to work at.

There are already enough people (IMO) trained in STEM fields who would be happy to get paid to fight the biggest problems we are facing on earth. Important issues like hunger, energy, disease, sustainability, communications. However the jobs and opportunities aren't there.

[Mithreal]

38. Good post.

[No Elephants]

41. More narrowly, speaking about math an science doesn't equal providing a math and science education.

We've established Obama can speak. Presidents should be able to speak well and I believe that giving good speeches is part of leading. But, Let's not confuse a good education in math and science with speaking about a good education in math and science.

[wordpix]

53. the jobs are there - go to idealist.org - but the money is not

A lot of the jobs listed on idealist.org and other idealist-type sites pay about $23K per year. Then Uncle Sam gets his piece, so you're not taking home $2000/mo, but let's say around $1600/mo. Try living on that in NYC, DC or San Fran. My friend rents a 550 sq. ft. studio in DC and that is $1500/mo. alone.

If you can live with about 3 people per bedroom or studio apt, it might be workable.

The answer is the super rich moguls should be forced to cough up more in taxes, which can then be used to pay people in gov. jobs. Either that, or you'd think the assholes would give more to non-profits. They get a tax break, for chrissake, but some of them not coughing up much dough to help the planet.

[Steerpike]

43. bullshit

Our local school district is experiencing a multi-million dollar shortfall. So, what now? Do empty words educate children? Let's stop spending billions to bail out billionaires. Let's stop spending billions to kill foreign women and children.

Let's spend some real money on all levels of education! Talk is cheap and bullshit is only slightly more expensive.

[dugaresa]

44. That's fine and dandy, however how about keeping the math and science jobs here?

or not bringing in folks with H1B visas to take jobs.

Nothing ruins someone's intentions to go into a field faster than finding out there are no jobs in that field.

There are loads of professionals I know who are not working in their chosen profession because they got outsourced.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

54. The government needs to support basic R&D.

To employ those engineers and physicists.

Back in the sixties, it was to beat the Russians to manned spaceflight.

Congress killed the Superconducting Supercollider that was to be built in Waxahachie, Texas. They killed it in 1992. That would have been a facility comparable to CERN in Switzerland and employed many engineers and physicists.

[Deja Q]

58. Or, as the link in my sig line readily points out, how our own have had to train our replacements.

And why else are people ditching IT and other types of jobs requiring such knowledge and skill? Livable wages are not coming out of these venues. People chase after money because it's a friggin' necessity. Some wonder why Americans look for money. If they can't see why, then they're not very bright. If we lived in a society where math and science and other progressive venues were used positively, more people wouldn't hesitate. But we don't live in that type of world. People need money. It's not there in IT anymore. And without good paying jobs, our economy will fail, followed fairly quickly by the global economy, as past history has readily shown the world.

Not upper class salaries where the bankers whine about their salaries going down. The middle class, who helped make the upper class what they are. (Lincoln was right...)

[Therellas]

49. cuz we need more technologies to clog our lives.

oh and make everything toxic to work with or use......
More built in obsolescence !!!!!
and lets call it scarce resources
lmfao......

[marshall]

50. Sidwell Friends takes a lead at encouraging its girls to study math and science

Sasha and Malia are receiving the best their parents can get for them, as every child deserves.

[wordpix]

51. & how about improving reading/writing while we're at it

Take it from me, a learning specialist.

[Deja Q]

56. For what jobs? Cash register duties at McDonalds? And their food is all chemicals to begin with...

I won't necessarily dispute problems with education. I'm in a rout or two of my own about the dilapidated college education system, assuming it's not just the college I am going to... but probably isn't since people were talking about the same problems at the college I went to 18 years ago for a different field...

The biggest problem is incentives. Jobs. See, if bankers can whine about salary caps ruining their desire to stay in their field (and they make a lot of money to begin with), working class people being paid crap wages that can't pay back necessities is going to dissuade a lot of people from wanting to work too.

* The core issue is wages.

* The core issue is incentives.

* The core issue is the lack of principles put out by principals (is the problem solely related to the teachers? No way, and that's obvious.)

* The core issue is what will we do with all that training if the jobs aren't there to challenge and make proper use of such learned people? (Right now, people are pigeonholed and can be let go because the CEO needs to appease the wanking shareholders with more perceived profits.)

In short: It's a multi-core system. Quad-core. AMD, because Intel is too good to insult. :)

[Mithreal]

59. The students and parents are responsible as well.

Maybe Obama can ground every child and take away their toys when they goof off.

How are parents who can't find jobs going to succeed as parents?

Anyway, good post.

Except for rhetoric, is there any indication the Obama education policy appreciates this complexity?