Top Dem to Obama: 'There Ain't Going to Be Money for Nothing if We Pour It All Into Afghanistan'

[sabra]

Source: ABC News

Rep. Obey Warns President Obama He Will Ask Taxpayers to Pay for War, Should More Troops Be Sent

WASHINGTON, Nov. 23, 2009—

The powerful chairman of the House Appropriations Committee has a stark message for President Obama about Afghanistan -- sending more troops would be a mistake that could "wipe out every initiative we have to rebuild our own economy."

"There ain't going to be no money for nothing if we pour it all into Afghanistan," House Appropriations Chairman David Obey told ABC News in an exclusive interview. "If they ask for an increased troop commitment in Afghanistan, I am going to ask them to pay for it."

Obey, a Democrat from Wisconsin, made it clear that he is absolutely opposed to sending any more U.S. troops to Afghanistan and says if Obama decides to do that, he'll demand a new tax -- what he calls a "war surtax" -- to pay for it.

"On the merits, I think it is a mistake to deepen our involvement," Obey said. "But if we are going to do that, then at least we ought to pay for it. Because if we don't, if we don't pay for it, the cost of the Afghan war will wipe out every initiative we have to rebuild our own economy."

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rep-david-obey-warns-president-obama-afghanistan-war/story?id=9126805

[RKP5637]

1. EXACTLY!!! War for this nation has become a way of life and habit! It's ridiculous, meanwhile,

as we wage war, this nation is falling apart at home. The US is often its own worst enemy IMO. Imagine what could be done if we did not make defense spending the top priority. I believe we spend more on defense than all of the countries combined.

[rfranklin]

15. In lieu of other manufacturing and exports, we have war...

and the weapons industry which we support by maintaining military bases around the world and invasions of other countries. Without this, we would be hard pressed to keep our "superpower" status.

[RKP5637]

24. Absolutely correct! It's a viscous circle, a Catch-22 IMO. n/t

[MH1]

44. it's vicious, too

along with having a gluey texture...

;)

[RKP5637]

63. Oops, LOL, viscous and vicious. Thanks for the catch!!!

:)

[Myrina]

17. ... and THAT is what ultimately ended the USSR too ...

... not Reagan whining to Gorbachev -- it was years and years of military spending that left the country without a pot to piss in or any place to dump it.

Will we learn in time?

[RKP5637]

26. Yes, I think if we continue we're going down the same path. Americans seem to

have short memories IMO. Yes, with Reagan it was a matter of lucky timing, as you said... I wonder if America will learn in time... so many in this country seem to be wrapped in flags shouting patriotism and many go unscathed by the horrific effects of war. They will be touched by the cost of war, eventually, even if they fail to recognize the costs.

[wpsedgwick]

77. Is Obey from Mississippi or Wisconsin? Seriously...

We have an elected official that speaks english worse than some who speak it as a second language.

[Patchuli]

96. Grammar was hideous

but the message rocked!

[No Elephants]

115. I'm betting his grammatical "errors" were intentional.

[Knight Hawk]

98. Excuse me?

Let us see,William Faulkner,Tennessee Williams and Eudora Welty all were born in Mississippi.Truman Capote came from next door .I think Mississippi has contributed much to the culture ,not to mention great NFL quarterbacks.

[rucky]

121. +1

[No Elephants]

117. I'm betting his "errors" were deliberate and for effect. In any event, his priorities are straight.

Would that were so of all of us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Obey

Welcome to DU.

[buckli]

130. watch this man!

http://watch-trueblood.org>watch true blood free,watch lost online, watch ugly betty online

[mbperrin]

2. Rec for Representative Obey!

Wars are destroying this country. Never mind their effect on our targets.

Bring 'em home now.

[Frosty cupcake]

4. From the article:

"That's what happened with the Vietnam War, which wiped out the Great Society," Obey said. "That's what happened with the Korean War, which wiped out Harry Truman's Square Deal. That's what happened with the end of the progressive movement before the '20s when we went into World War I. In each case, the cost of those wars shut off our ability to pay for anything else."

Finally! A politician who knows his history!

[howmad1]

80. Hey, while we're at it, how about drafting rethuglicans.

Seems those rethuglicans love a good war. We can check party registration and draft those rethug assholes who would love to fight for our freedom.

[Amonester]

105. Don't bet on it, they'll manage to get 1, 2, or 3+ deferments.

Just like their war-criminal idol dicky chainy.

[Sub Atomic]

3. "ain't going to be no money for nothing"

:facepalm:

As the grandson of a strict English teacher, I find the general attitude toward speaking/writing proper English to be appalling.

[uncle ray]

5. ain't gonna be no money for more better schools, either.

[louis-t]

60. It's "neither".

:rofl:

[Kolesar]

6. "speaking and writing"...eom

[unblock]

13. most of the congresscritters know damn well how to speak properly. it's all an act.

they know when to be "folksy" and when to be proper.

when you get down to it, communication is not about blindly sticking to rules, it's about effectively getting your message across to your intended audience, effectively connecting, effectively transmitting something that is appreciated by the audience.

obviously, he didn't achieve that with you, but he's betting that most of his constituents will be able to relate to him better if he talks like that.


sometimes one must accept non-grammatical communication as acceptable and appropriate. how else can one appreciate e.e. cummings?

[Lorien]

32. I had to read the whole thing to understand what he was talking about

appealing to the most uneducated idiots in our Nation pulls everyone downward, and it absolutely does not help in getting his point across.

[barbtries]

79. in smallcase

passionately.

:)

[Lorien]

30. Lol! As the daugher of an editor, that jumped ot at me as well!

I actually had to read it twice. It's hard to believe that anyone could get to such a position while mangling the language so badly!

[Jackpine Radical]

38. David Obey is a highly literate and articulate speaker.

This piece of ungrammatical cant was embedded in an otherwise grammatically correct statement replete with well-formed, complex dependent clauses and all that stuff. He did it for its shock value; only when the quote is lifted from its context does it come across as subliterate.

[KansDem]

71. Because if he had said...

"Pursuing objectives in the quagmire Afghanistan will leave us bereft of much-need funds to bolster domestic programs" would have FAUX News and wingnuts clamoring about his being an "elitist" and we'd still be without a pot to piss in...

[Bette Noir]

37. It's an idiom. Look it up.

[northernlights]

46. it's called vernacular

and he's using it for dramatic effect.

And ditto to above on "speaking/writing" versus "speaking and writing." What's your excuse?

[Ellipsis]

68. Well spoken. n/t

[Skittles]

111. I don't care

it sounds fucking ignorant

[wroberts189]

83. While "ain't" is considered improper it actually exists in many dictionaries.

It ain't going away anytime soon I think. They might as well add it in.




http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ain't

Main Entry: ain't
Pronunciation: \ˈānt\
Etymology: contraction of are not
Date: 1749

1 : am not : are not : is not
2 : have not : has not
3 : do not : does not : did not —used in some varieties of Black English
usage Although widely disapproved as nonstandard and more common in the habitual speech of the less educated, ain't in senses 1 and 2 is flourishing in American English. It is used in both speech and writing to catch attention and to gain emphasis <the wackiness of movies, once so deliciously amusing, ain't funny anymore — Richard Schickel> <I am telling you—there ain't going to be any blackmail — R. M. Nixon>. It is used especially in journalistic prose as part of a consistently informal style <the creative process ain't easy — Mike Royko>. This informal ain't is commonly distinguished from habitual ain't by its frequent occurrence in fixed constructions and phrases <well—class it ain't — Cleveland Amory> <for money? say it ain't so, Jimmy! — Andy Rooney> <you ain't seen nothing yet> <that ain't hay> <two out of three ain't bad> <if it ain't broke, don't fix it>. In fiction ain't is used for purposes of characterization; in familiar correspondence it tends to be the mark of a warm personal friendship. It is also used for metrical reasons in popular songs <Ain't She Sweet> <It Ain't Necessarily So>. Our evidence shows British use to be much the same as American.

[Skittles]

110. I find it absolutely disgusting too

:thumbsdown:

[No Elephants]

118. Did your grandparent teach you about literary license? Please see Reply 117.

A person who spoke with perfect grammar for hours on end once said, "Don't take it personal." Had she said it grammatically, I probably would not have noticed or remembered.

Given the importance of Obey's point, the focus on his alleged grammatical errors is puzzling.

[optimator]

7. absolutely nothing to gain from Afghanistan war

so the question becomes, is Obama really in charge?
or is he really prepared to make such an awful economic choice?
And the war tax is such a horrible idea politically, it will guarantee Dems will lose elections.

[rurallib]

8. Which is why I believe Bush started this shit to begin with.

[BonnieJW]

12. And yet he got re-elected after starting this shit.

[rurallib]

54. I am convinced 45% of America is now terminally stupid

and the GOOP only has to convince another 6% in any election.

[RKP5637]

64. Is that ever the truth!!! I have similar thoughts. n/t

[Iowa]

69. Yep, you nailed it.

[bdamomma]

73. terminally stupid, yes indeed.

[h9socialist]

75. Sarah Palin is counting on that!

Ding-a-lings vote for other ding-a-lings!!!!

You think it's bad now, think about the stupidity it took to elect Reagan in 1980!

[kestrel91316]

9. Nations that live by warmongering tend not to last a real long time.

We need to beat our swords into plowshares (AGAIN, sigh).

[RKP5637]

14. Absolutely! This nation is too thrilled with war! I've lived my entire

life with this nation at war, planning war or saying this one and that one is a threat and be afraid. It keeps the MIC propped up with lots of cash. And it has become a mindset IMO.

[truedelphi]

109. Me too. Whole life has been about the war machinery.

And remember all the worry along the lines of if we don't stay the course in Vietnam, then the entire Pacific Rim will go Commie?

Of course what happened is that after We destroyed the stability in the area, Pol Pot sprang up and killed three million people (or more) in Cambodia. But hey, at least he was our ally, right!

[BonnieJW]

10. How about a war tax levied on

the military industrial complex? Since they're making all the money on the death machine, why not ask them to pony up the money if they want this meat grinder to continue?

[closeupready]

22. Why would Congress tax the boss? They'll tax YOU and give your money to the MIC.

That's how it works, unfortunately. Has been like that for a long time. I don't expect that to change, myself.

[Mari333]

11. I hope he fcking listens.

[MissDeeds]

99. Me too

About damn time to bring our troops home.

[AzDar]

16. Word.

:thumbsup:

[latebloomer]

18. Hello! Some common sense!

The throwing away of our blood and treasure on this total boondoggle, a war which only INCREASES the chances of terrorism, completely flies in the face of any rational thought.

Who the hell thinks that, especially in this time of economic crisis, it makes sense to go deeper and deeper into debt, spending money we don't have to finance this obscenity?

I really didn't expect more from Obama, so I can't say I'm disappointed, but it is so clear in whose pockets he resides.

[closeupready]

19. Good on Obey! Oh, the irony - the renegade named Obey!

:rofl: :patriot: :)

[ElboRuum]

21. Not so ironic? A republicant named Boehner.

Believe it or not, I still get a chuckle out of that.

[ElboRuum]

20. Of course.

It's really surprising that some still believe that something good can come from this, at least, something good that warrants troop deployments.

If we did do this, at the minimum, I'd want measurable goals and definitive metrics and timelines to determine when/if those goals are met. This whole "war without end" noise is stupid and, from the standpoints of both history and common sense, can't possibly work. Personally, I see nothing about continuing our involvement there which "settles things," so continuing to send troops without committing to some form of practical goal there is just fucking dumb. The money is better spent elsewhere.

[closeupready]

23. Devil's advocate: If continual "war without end" worked, why aren't the Romans still a power?

Or any of the empires that followed? Certainly not for lack of trying to wage continual war.

[ElboRuum]

51. Well, if I were going to answer that...

...from the typical opposition's standpoint, I'd probably counter with, "They would still be a power, but they engaged in wanton sex and debauchery, and their decadence crumbled them from within." Then, I'd probably launch into some horsepuckey about how it would be possible to make empire and have it last, so long as religious dogma replaced secular law. Then I'd hand you a brochure espousing the megachurch I belong to.

[No Elephants]

123. The Roman empire always had religious law. First, polytheistic, then Christian. then it got

downright Byzantine.

:rofl:

Various rulers enforced the religious laws more than others, though.

[bread_and_roses]

90. Can we include how many children it's OK to slaughter in those "metrics?"

Since our major accomplishments in this eight years seem to be killing civilians, including dismembering and incinerating infants and children with our "drones" or whatever it is that drops bombs on wedding parties and desperate villagers trying to snatch a little oil and huts where some "insurgent" or "terrorist" or "Taliban" or "AQ" is supposed to be hiding out but which turn out to be full of sleeping mothers and babies?

[bertman]

25. Or we could just leave it Off Budget like BushCo did. That makes the debt disappear.

[avaistheone1]

27. It only makes it look like the debt disappears.

That only lasts so long.

[joeybee12]

28. Does a triple negative reverse a double negative back to positive? n/t

[Lorien]

33. I always thought so

:shrug:

At first I thought it was some sort of sick racist dig against Obama.

[joeybee12]

35. Yeah, it didn't seem like a real quote at first....n/t

[No Elephants]

119. Matter of opinion. I think it did help him get his point across and also help him to get press

coverage of what he said. Please see Reply #118.

[polichick]

29. This seems so obvious to most voters. nt

[SandWalker1984]

31. Afghanistan is about pipelines, poppies and war profiteering - not war on terror

Pipelines to carry oil and natural gas, pipelines controlled by the US.

Let's Speak the Truth About Afghanistan

By Eric Margolis

30/07/08 "Huffington Post" -- - NEW YORK -- During his triumphant European tour, Senator Barack Obama again urged NATO's members to send more troops to Afghanistan and called the conflict there, "the central front in the war on terror." Europe's response ranged from polite evasion to downright frosty.

It is unfortunate that Obama has adopted President George Bush's misleading terminology, "war on terror," to describe the conflict between the United States and anti-American groups in the Muslim world. Like many Americans, he and his foreign policy advisors are sorely misinformed about the reality of Afghanistan.

One understands Obama's need to respond with martial élan to rival John McCain's chest-thumping about "I know how to win wars." Polls put McCain far ahead of Obama when it comes to being a war leader. But Obama's recent proposal to send at least 7,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and his threats to attack Pakistan's territory, and warnings about Islamabad's nuclear forces, show poor judgment and lack of knowledge.

The United States is no longer "fighting terrorism" in Afghanistan, as Bush, Obama and McCain insist. The 2001 U.S. invasion was a legitimate operation against al-Qaeda, a group that properly fit the role of a "terrorist organization." But, contrary to the White House's wildly inflated claims that Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda was a worldwide conspiracy, it never numbered more than 300 hard core members. Bin Laden and his jihadis long ago scattered into all corners of Pakistan and elsewhere. Only a handful remain in Afghanistan.

Today, 80,000 U.S. and NATO troops are waging war against the Taliban. Having accompanied the mujahidin fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980's, witnessed the birth of Taliban, and penned a book about the Afghan struggle, "War at the Top of the World," I can attest that Taliban is not a terrorist organization as the U.S. and its allies wrongly claim.

Taliban was created in the early 1990's during the chaos and civil war that engulfed Afghanistan after the Soviet invaders were driven out. Drawn from Pashtun tribes of southern Afghanistan, who make up half that nation's population, Taliban was a religious movement that took up arms to battle the Afghan Communists, stop the wide-scale rape of Afghan women, and halt banditry and the drug trade. Both Pakistan and the U.S. secretly aided Taliban.

The ranks of Taliban were filled with young religious students -- "talibs" -- and veteran mujahidin fighters whom the U.S. had armed and hailed as "freedom fighters." By 1996, Taliban took Kabul, driving out the Northern Alliance, the old rump of the Afghan Communist Party and its Russian-backed Tajik and Uzbek tribal supporters. Taliban, most of whom were mountaineers, imposed a draconian medievalist culture that followed traditional Pashtun tribal customs and Islamic law.

The U.S. quietly backed Taliban for possible use in Central Asia, against China in the event of war, and against Iran, a bitter foe of the Sunni Taliban. U.S. energy giants Chevron and Unocal negotiated gas and oil pipeline deals with Taliban. In 2001, Washington gave $40 million in aid to Taliban until four months before 9/11. The U.S. only turned against Taliban when, at Osama bin Laden's advice, it gave a major pipeline deal to an Argentine consortium rather than an American one.

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20386.h...
**********


Poppies, as in drug trade.

America's Drug Crisis: Brought to You by the CIA
Wed, 10/28/2009 - 14:32 — dlindorff

Next time you see a junkie sprawled at the curb in the downtown of your nearest city, or read about someone who died of a heroin overdose, just imagine a big yellow sign posted next to him or her saying: “Your Federal Tax Dollars at Work.”

Kudos to the New York Times, and to reporters Dexter Filkins, Mark Mazzetti and James Risen, for their lead article today reporting that Ahmed Wali Karzai, brother of Afghanistan’s stunningly corrupt President Hamid Karzai, a leading drug lord in the world’s major opium-producing nation, has for eight years been on the CIA payroll.

Okay, the article was lacking much historical perspective (more on that later), and the dead hand of top editors was evident in the overly cautious tone (I loved the third paragraph, which stated that “The financial ties and close working relationship between the intelligence agency and Mr. Karzai raises significant questions about America’s war strategy, which is currently under review at the White House.” Well, duh! It should be raising questions about why we are even in Afghanistan, about who should be going to jail at the CIA, and about how can the government explain this to the families of the over 1000 soldiers and Marines who have died supposedly helping to build a new Afghanistan). But that said, the newspaper that helped cheerlead us into the pointless and criminal Iraq invasion in 2003, and that prevented journalist Risen from running his exposé of the Bush/Cheney administration’s massive warrantless National Security Agency electronic spying operation until after the 2004 presidential election, this time gave a critically important story full timely play, and even, appropriately, included a teaser in the same front-page story about October being the most deadly month yet for the US in Afghanistan.

What the article didn’t mention at all is that there is a clear historical pattern here. During the Vietnam War, the CIA, and its Air America airline front-company, were neck deep in the Southeast Asian heroin trade. At the time, it was Southeast Asia, not Afghanistan, that was the leading producer and exporter of opium, mostly to the US, where there was a resulting heroin epidemic.

A decade later, in the 1980s, during the Reagan administration, as the late investigative journalist Gary Webb so brilliantly documented first in a series titled “Dark Alliance” in the San Jose Mercury News newspaper, and later in a book by that same name, the CIA was deeply involved in the development of and smuggling of cocaine into the US, which was soon engulfed in a crack cocaine epidemic—one that continues to destroy African American and other poor communities across the country. (The Times' role here was sordid—it and other leading papers, including the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times—did despicable hit pieces on Webb shamelessly trashing his work and his career, and ultimately driving him to suicide, though his facts have held up.) In this case, Webb showed that the Agency was actually using the drugs as a way to fund arms, which it could use its own planes to ferry down to the Contra forces it was backing to subvert the Sandinista government in Nicaragua at a time Congress had barred the US from supporting the Contras.

And now we have Afghanistan, once a sleepy backwater of the world with little connection to drugs (the Taliban, before their overthrow by US forces in 2001, had, according to the UN, virtually eliminated opium production there), but now responsible for as much as 80 percent of the world’s opium production—this at a time that the US effectively finances and runs the place, with an occupying army that, together with Afghan government forces that it controls, outnumbers the Taliban 12-1 according to a recent AP story.

The real story here is that where the US goes, the drug trade soon follows, and the leading role in developing and nurturing that trade appears to be played by the Central Intelligence Agency.

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/408
*************


Profits, as in war profiteering corporations.

Pentagon Pouring Your Money Into Afghanistan: Are They Preparing for a Very Long War?

By Nick Turse, Tomdispatch.com
Posted on November 9, 2009, Printed on November 9, 2009

In recent weeks, President Obama has been contemplating the future of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan. He has also been touting the effects of his policies at home, reporting that this year's Recovery Act not only saved jobs, but also was "the largest investment in infrastructure since Eisenhower built the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s." At the same time, another much less publicized U.S.-taxpayer-funded infrastructure boom has been underway. This one in Afghanistan.

While Washington has put modest funding into civilian projects in Afghanistan this year -- ranging from small-scale power plants to "public latrines" to a meat market -- the real construction boom is military in nature. The Pentagon has been funneling stimulus-sized sums of money to defense contractors to markedly boost its military infrastructure in that country.

In fiscal year 2009, for example, the civilian U.S. Agency for International Development awarded $20 million in contracts for work in Afghanistan, while the U.S. Army alone awarded $2.2 billion -- $834 million of it for construction projects. In fact, according to Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, the Pentagon has spent "roughly $2.7 billion on construction over the past three fiscal years" in that country and, "if its request is approved as part of the fiscal 2010 defense appropriations bill, it would spend another $1.3 billion on more than 100 projects at 40 sites across the country, according to a Senate report on the legislation."

Bogged Down at Bagram

Nowhere has the building boom been more apparent than Bagram Air Base, a key military site used by the Soviet Union during its occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s. In its American incarnation, the base has significantly expanded from its old Soviet days and, in just the last two years, the population of the more than 5,000 acre compound has doubled to 20,000 troops, in addition to thousands of coalition forces and civilian contractors. To keep up with its exponential growth rate, more than $200 million in construction projects are planned or in-progress at this moment on just the Air Force section of the base. "Seven days a week, concrete trucks rumble along the dusty perimeter road of this air base as bulldozers and backhoes reshape the rocky earth," Chuck Crumbo of The State reported recently. "Hundreds of laborers slap mortar onto bricks as they build barracks and offices. Four concrete plants on the base have operated around the clock for 18 months to keep up with the construction needs."

Read the rest of the story at:
http://www.alternet.org/story/143819 /

*******************

NOW WHY IS IT WE ARE STILL IN AFGHANISTAN?

[Lorien]

34. K & R your post. nt

[fascisthunter]

41. and we are paying them

[madrchsod]

47. you should have posted this

instead of using it as a reply.....:thumbsup:

[Bette Noir]

36. Huzzah!

If they wanna war, it comes with a price tag, and a tax.

[harun]

39. I think Obama knows this and would like more people to bring it up.

[tabatha]

57. That is probably why Carl Levin said that taxes on the rich

should pay for the war.

[harun]

58. We already have a war tax in the income tax. I agree push it to

the super-rich where it belongs. That war isn't for the little people.

[Abq_Sarah]

113. If he wants the war to end

Then levy a big tax on everyone, rich and poor. If you just tax the top 2 or 3% of the population, it will drag on for years. Tax the majority of voters and there will be a mad rush to get the hell out.

[RoccoR5955]

40. We need a war surtax, AND a draft.

Then see how fast we get out of these wars!

[RKP5637]

65. Exactly!!! Like many and I too had to live through... and we turned against the Vietnam war. Today

war is out of sight and out of mind for most of the country. Few suffer the horrific effects of waging this endless stupid war(s).

[Kermitt Gribble]

42. K&R for the message, but

"There ain't going to be no money for nothing if we pour it all into Afghanistan," - c'mon, dude. What's with the redneck speak?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Triana]

45. Yeppers. And Iraq.

And off-topic, I guess, I'm still thinking about those 5 MILLION orphans we've created over there (Iraq). Us PRO-LIFE americans....Pfft.

Ain't we just the utter PICTURE of morality? :rofl:

[JimWis]

48. K&R - And I like the war tax idea. Maybe it will wake people up.

[change_notfinetuning]

49. Put military funding and health care REFORM funding in the same bill. They

attach completely unrelated items all the time when enacting laws. This will provide some balance.

I know - ain't never gonna happen. Don't mess with profits, or inject humanity and common sense.

[frylock]

50. about fucking time we see language like this..

we need to quit this unwinnable bs like yesterday.

[defendandprotect]

52. These imperialistic wars should have been ended in '06 . . . will Dems ever end them?

[Altoid_Cyclist]

53. This seems like an appropriate song for what this country has become.

It's sad to realize that countries like the US still get away with waging war for profit.

Profit being the key word when it comes to the MIC.

War Pigs by Black Sabbath


Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerers of death's construction
In the fields the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed minds
Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait 'til their judgement day comes
Yeah!

Now in darkness world stops turning
Ashes where the bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgement, God is calling
On their knees the war pig's crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing spreads his wings
Oh lord yeah!

Great anti-war song.
Just in case anyone hasn't heard this before:

http://www.last.fm/music/Black+Sabbath/_/War+Pigs

[bullwinkle428]

102. No...make that the BEST anti-war song!

:thumbsup:

[Altoid_Cyclist]

124. The sad part about the song is that it's still so damn relevant 40 years after being written.

That means that either the US government is too stupid to learn from it's mistakes, OR.. it just doesn't give a damn about anything other than the profit from warmongering.

Either way, it's pathetic.

[beyond cynical]

55. But Obama Said That Afghanistan is "The War We Need to Win"

"As President, I would deploy at least two additional brigades to Afghanistan to re-enforce our counter-terrorism operations and support NATO's efforts against the Taliban. As we step up our commitment, our European friends must do the same, and without the burdensome restrictions that have hampered NATO's efforts. We must also put more of an Afghan face on security by improving the training and equipping of the Afghan Army and Police, and including Afghan soldiers in U.S. and NATO operations."

http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php

[Drunken Irishman]

56. Did he really say 'There Ain't Going to Be Money for Nothing if We Pour It All Into Afghanistan'?

Embarrassing.

[juno jones]

59. He is using a vernacular idiom,

an established technique in american letters. It is suppoesed to accentuate a sentence and make it 'plain' to one as 'plain' speech.

Mark Twain and HL Mencken among others have used it.

[Drunken Irishman]

62. Mark Twain he isn't.

Embarrassing.

[No Elephants]

120. Methinks Obey is ungrammatical-- like a fox. Please see Reply ##'s 117 and 118.

[juno jones]

61. His choice of idiom aside,

(unfortunate only in the number of people who don't get why he suddenly spasmed and spoke an ungrammatical sentence for effect)he speaks truth. We have drained everything but war from our country. It has replaced our manufacturing base. It has replaced our social services. So many in this country have been raised during endless wars and have been conditioned to feel vauguely patriotic about supporting it-my country right or wrong and all that.

I want to live in a society where my tax money benefits myself and others in this country, something we will never have with endless war. A careful reading of history shows what happens to all empires eventually, If America keeps to this path, war will eventually come to us, as opposed to the other way 'round. Whether it's the Goths at the gates or the unease of Britain in the IRA-bombed '60's and '70's, it will come.

[BREMPRO]

66. why we have civilian control of the military. Budget must be considered.

do we live with a little less security abroad, but have more security in the budget outlay and can afford robust public health care at home? If my view, better to pull out quicker and continue to support Afghanis and Pakistan monetarily- contingent on them taking responsibility for their own security.

[mvd]

76. Sounds good to support monetarily and pull out

Even with the support, more money will come here than stay over there. The terrorist groups are mobile; better way to keep terror in check is intelligence/diplomacy and not occupation.

[AllyCat]

67. Thank you Rep. Obey. At least someone from WI is talking some freakin' sense

[lib2DaBone]

70. It seems no matter how the message is phrased.. the boneheads in Washington don't get it....

Hey man, we are broke. No ticky.. no laundry. Can you lend me five?
If we don't quit nation building in the sandbox and bring some jobs home... the eagle ain't gonna fly.... the goose is cooked.. no more golden eggs. Stick a fork in this country.. it's done.




There.. that should do it. Maybe someone in Washington will understand... Verstehen...Capisce...Comprende... comprenez.

[bdamomma]

72. crap isn't 8 years enough, the Soviets lost and put their country in a hole

we are doing the same thing. Just end the carnage!!

[h9socialist]

74. I am an Obama Loyalist, but this is exactly what he needs to hear.

I hope the President hears this message loud and clear. Congressman Obey is saying it right. It's what Lyndon Johnson needed to hear in 1965 about Vietnam! I believe that President Obama is the best thing to happen to American politics in my adult lifetime. While I am positioned well to his left, I understand how important it is for him to be a successful President -- it's important to the whole world, not just the U.S. A quagmire in Afghanistan could ruin everything. There has to be another way than giving in to the warmongers!

[barbtries]

78. that should have been the deal

from the get. maybe no war would have happened at all. president obama please listen, and get us out of that mess.

[Vidar]

81. K&R

[lovuian]

82. that is reality folks

the deficit effects military
we can't keep paying for this

[sandyj999]

84. What better Way to take this country over.

Ruin us financially which has already started and then call in (China for one) all their markers. Why are these politicians so stupid?

[newtothegame]

85. Nice grammar. Didn't we bust Palin for this folksy slang? n/t

[valerief]

93. You ain't SERIES, are you?!!!111

:rofl:

[sandyj999]

114. If you are speaking to me I am so sorry for offending your sensibilities.

When I find time I will return to correct the sentence structure.

[sandyj999]

131. My mistake just ignore I see what it concerned.n/t

[No Elephants]

122. Please see Reply ##s 117 and 118. I don't recall busting Palin about slang, either.

Taking six years to finish college, if indeed she ever did, lying, and things like that, yes. Slang, no.

[Bolo Boffin]

86. Call it the Bush tax.

Add up the cost of the war. Figure out a nice progressive tax to pay for it in three years. Call it the Bush tax. Pass it.

[yurbud]

87. let the other shoe drop and DEMAND an explanation of which business interests want us to stay

[yurbud]

88. he's got a good idea too--A WAR TAX

if the righties are so hot for a war, see if they are willing to pay for it besides the cost of their cable subscription to cheer it on on Fox News.

[BrklynLiberal]

89. Well, THAT':S the truth..

[pjt7]

91. The military industrial complex

needs to be taxed fairly heavily, if any troops are added into Afghan.

Great idea.

[valerief]

92. The Rich should pay for their wars with their money. The working poor pays for it with their lives.

[thegoodfight]

94. Typical Americans,

After all the factual evidence that points to Afghanistan being an inhumane and unjust war, the only reason you want to get out is the very reason your troops are in there, money and not because innocent people have died and not because this war is only creating more conflict and increasing the threat of terrorism significantly and tens of other reasons why you should be outraged. Never cease to amaze me....

[McCamy Taylor]

95. For those who say "war is good for the economy" please look at this journal

which I wrote in which I demonstrate that military spending is NOT good for the economy, and that spending on education (and health care and infrastructure) are good. The only thing worse for the economy is tax cuts for the rich.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/McCamy%20Taylor/440

[harvey007]

97. America First

Use tax dollars for human needs here in the U.S.A. - health care, education, housing, jobs, environmental protection, and infrastructure repair.

[SHRED]

100. Afghanistan = Vietnam

[Loge23]

101. Cost of Idiocy

Cost of the war in Iraq & Afghanistan: $935 billion since 2001.
Cost of the war on drugs: over $45 billion this year alone.
Cost of Health Care reform (current version being debated): about 950 billion over 10 years.

The simple fact is: if the Republicans did not squander away the nation's treasure on a grudge match, we could have easily paid for infrastructure repair as well as health care for millions of uninsured citizens. Let alone the idiotic so-called "war on drugs" that continues to waste enormous tax-payer money in a futile attempt at controlling behavior. Did we learn nothing from Prohibition??
But forget about dollars. How would you prefer to spend $900 billion?
On invading Iraq and hanging it's leader? On taking over the quagmire of Afghanistan from the Russians after they lost their empire?
Or on rebuilding our own country and providing basic quality of life services for our own people instead of imprisoning a considerable percentage of the population for using drugs?

http://costofwar.com/
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm

[EmeraldCityGrl]

103. The military has become a massive welfare state.n/t

[orbitalman]

104. Tax Stupidity into Involvement

the cost of the Afghan war will wipe out every initiative we have to rebuild our own economy. Die Democracy, die. erghhh.

[Clear Blue Sky]

106. No shit. Get out of Afghanistan...nt

[Odin2005]

107. War Tax on the Rich!

[donheld]

108. Shouldn't that be obvious?

[RedCloud]

112. Obama should stop eating Bush's poop. And fire that anti-Obama general.

That general doesn't deserve one penny more of our tax dollars. His is not to question why but to do or die.

[midnight]

116. War surtax to be placed on halliburton, blackwater, the wealthy, etc.... like that?

Because the working class has few jobs,and or no money.

[No Elephants]

125. Didn't Pelosi say something about Pay Go in 2006? P.S. Good on Obey!

[soarsboard2]

126. MIxed Feelings on Afganistan

next to nuclear armed Pakistan.

If al Quaeda takes over Pakistan - then we are in a heep of trouble.

On the other hand, this is taking WAY too long. Longer than WW2 for God's sake.

[BakedAtAMileHigh]

127. Proper Opinion, Poor Grammar

Is it too much to ask our elected representatives to speak well and properly? The President is a fine example of this: I have never seen or heard President Obama use slang, double negatives, fragmented sentences or engage in subject-verb conflict; this is one of the many reasons he is so highly regarded by Americans and the international community. Obey is right, of course. I just wish he would try to use his education a bit more when speaking in public.

[Rockholm]

128. And your chicks for free...Was he channeling Dire Straits?

[NikRik]

129. Continue intelligence ,bring troops home NOW!

Because of the presence of terrorist and their planiing on operations from Afghanistan we must have a efficiant intelligence operations in this area of the world.Lets stop the plans B/4 they make there way to our country and take care of terroist in the part of the world where war seems to be a way of life.Our milatary people do not deserve to fight a endless war where the pepople responsible seem to hide in the shadows ! You would think with how advanced our country is that we would also have a intelligence advantage over them and for a fraction of the cost of maintaining a milatary presence we could have a high quality intelligence operation !
IMHO, NikRik