Kennedy says RI bishop banned him from Communion

[24601]

Source: Associated Press - By Ray Henry

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) - Roman Catholic Bishop Thomas Tobin has banned Rep. Patrick Kennedy from receiving Communion, the central sacrament of the church, in Rhode Island because of the congressman's support for abortion rights, Kennedy said in a newspaper interview published Sunday.

The decision by the outspoken prelate, reported on The Providence Journal's Web site, significantly escalates a bitter dispute between Tobin, an ultra orthodox bishop, and Kennedy, a son of the nation's most famous Roman Catholic family.

"The bishop instructed me not to take Communion and said that he has instructed the diocesan priests not to give me Communion," Kennedy told the paper in an interview conducted Friday.

Kennedy said the bishop had explained the penalty by telling him "that I am not a good practicing Catholic because of the positions that I've taken as a public official," particularly on abortion.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20091122/D9C4J5580.html

---

Pat, we would welcome you to the Episcopal Church.

In 1994, our 71st General Convention expressed "unequivocal opposition to any ... action ... that abridge the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of her pregnancy, or that would limit the access of a woman to a safe means of acting upon her decision."

And we are gender nuetral - our Presiding Bishop is a woman. (The Most Rev.) Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori presides over US Episcopalians & represents us in the worldwide anglican communion.

We also consecrate (bishops) and ordain (priests & deacons) without regard to sexual orientation.

And there is no requirement for personal confession - all the sin with half the guilt!

Prime Rib on Good Friday is OK.

Sorry Baptists, we also drink & dance.

[imdjh]

1. Imagine a Kennedy publicly telling a Catholic bishop to stop being a foreign agent.

[LynnTheDem]

2. LOL!!!

That's one of the best lines I've heard in a very long time!

[roguevalley]

201. idiot priest. JFK took hits for his faith in the election and broke the

barrier against religious prejudice and he's doing this. Fucking nitwit.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. It's more than denying Kennedy religious absolution from sin.

It's telling a block of catholic voters not to re-elect him next election cycle.

[caseymoz]

36. It's true, but I don't know if that's more . . .

Let's see, which one is "more": depriving Kennedy of voters or condemning him to eternal torture with no parole, no reprieve?

I realize you might not be a believer, but if you look at it from within the logic of the faith, the meaning of "more" reverses.

If the Archbishop actually believes in the Catholic meaning of what he is doing, then HIS morality is questionable.

If I were Kennedy, I'd find a different religion.

[no_hypocrisy]

51. A Kennedy finding a different religion is equivalent to finding a different identity.

[caseymoz]

70. Yes, it would be. I'd like a stunning, insulting move from him, here.

Somebody prominent needs to stand up to these creep Bishops, somebody politically powerful who is identified with the church. Nobody stops them from having their anti-choice policies within their church. Nobody makes them marry transgendered couples. When they try to impose it on all society, then it's political, not religious.

[No Elephants]

104. "When they try to impose it on all society, then it's political, not religious."

Very well put. I would posit, though, that it is BOTH political and religious. If it were only political, no Establishment Clause issue would arise. When the bishop seeks to force Kennedy to impose upon all of America the Catholic Church's interpretation of the bible, we are dangerously close to to all kinds of Establishment Clause issues.

[BrklynLiberal]

152. DItto!

[Iowa]

145. People with a long Irish-Catholic heritage leave the religion every day.

It's about evolving, improving, and seeking the truth... wherever it may lead. That doesn't mean you abandon your identity or your heritage; just the religion part (which is really only a small part of it). When the religion you thought you knew morphs into a right-wing, reactionary, anti-woman, plutocracy-serving, child-abusing, cesspool... and when the organization actually conflicts with your heritage, your world-view, your morality, and your identity, it's really not difficult to leave at all. It's far more difficult to remain than it is to leave. So that's what you do; you leave, you don't look back, you have no regrets, and you read threads like these which confirm your decision to leave. And you carry on very much like you did before, with both your heritage and your identity completely intact.

[dflprincess]

175. To a certain extent that's true for any of us who were raised to think of ourselves as an

IrishCatholicDemocrat (one word like Tip O'Neil said). But it can be done - it's just that most of us got to wrestle with that change of identity in private, Patrick Kennedy will have to do it in public.

[AlbertCat]

139. the logic of the faith,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! That's a good one!

So he can't do some made up ritual of eating a cracker. It will not make one iota of difference when he's dead. It's a move designed for the LIVING to see and to scare other duped believers into being afraid. Fear & guilt.... fear & guilt!

And as pointed out further down, this is a move about THIS world, not the next. Remember, religion is just ancient government. The heads of these governments used to declare themselves divine all the time. The Pope might as well be the Emperor of Rome.

[caseymoz]

196. A faith follows an internal logic, and logic is only as good as the premises.

It's just eating a cracker, unless you believe the shit about it, and if you don't believe the bullshit shit about it-- let's just say for somebody raised in the church who have come to believe in something, it takes a massive amount of re-examination to find out what and why.

For the Catholic church, and for conservative Christians in general, the reason why they try to impose their views on others is that they believe God punishes nations for their sins-- not just individuals. So, for them, a woman's choice is a public issue. If one woman has an illegal abortion, than she is sinning, but if abortion is legal, then the whole country is sinning. They believe they are saving the nation from divine wrath, first and foremost, just like the prophets in the Bible.

The Catholic Church is a special case, though, in a way, because it had such power, and as far as it sees it, God wants it to have the power back.

[zelta gaisma]

yup you are totally right. Religion is 99% circular logic ie not logical at all. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

142. No need to change his religion, why everyone need to create a religion according to their needs?

He just have to talk about it openly and discuss what are his moral grounds to support his believes.

Henry was wrong when he created his own church.

[CatholicEdHead]

46. And personal gain for Bishop Tobin

to get on that fast track to Archbishop and then Cardinal.

This is nothing more than that. He knows the internal kudos he can get by cracking down on someone with the name Kennedy.

Some of this institutional push against the name Kennedy goes back to the JFK days when JFK's campaign completely changed American Catholics' relations with the Vatican. It has not been the same since.

[bulloney]

55. Will Bishop Tobin also deny communion to those who support capital punishment?

Collectively, I think the hierarchy of the Catholic church is conservative and they play the abortion card because they know it's the most divisive issue to enable them to speak for Republican candidates and against Democratic candidates.

[CatholicEdHead]

56. Nope, not publically

Their most consistent financial base is the far rabid anti-abortion members of the Church (e.g. no abortion with no health or rape exceptions). So if they want to keep the money coming in, they need to support them and often they overlap with anti-gay marriage folks. You do not hear much more than that nowadays from the Bishops.

Social Justice is out of favor as part of today is payback from the 60's-80's with the social justice focus and also most people related to those issues to not have as deep pockets.

[HockeyMom]

57. How about Divorce

and Birth Control? Should catholic legislators be using their office to "promote their faith" legislating the REST of Rome's dogma?

[CatholicEdHead]

63. That is what the bubble of Rome thinks

If you hang out on conservative Catholic boards, the only correct answer in the US and worldwide is that if you are Catholic, you need to follow everything Rome pushes down through the Bishop level. Cardinal George at the USCCB meeting this past week talked about anyone not toeing the complete Bishop line to "not be fully Catholic". :puke: They see themselves as part of the "perfect society" which they consider the Church to be (teach it in seminary). They bought their own propaganda.

[No Elephants]

108. What Catholic teaching did Patrick Kennedy not follow? Did he get an abortion?

Is he divorced? Has he killed anyone?

There is a huge difference between living as a good Catholic and forcing all Americans to live as good Catholics. The first is protected by our Constitution; the second is forbidden by our Constitution.


Americans need to distinguish between living out their religion and forcing it on everyone else via legislation.

[CatholicEdHead]

113. Here is the legalese in Canon Law

http://www.ewtn.com/vote/Catholic_Politicians/Questions1.asp#8

8. What does Church law say specifically?

First, most people who have need of the sacrament of confession are not public sinners. Their sins are known to themselves, the persons they may have sinned against, and others who may have found out, such as family and friends. Church law provides that they are responsible for going to Confession or refraining from Communion themselves (c. 916). Such persons cannot be publicly refused Holy Communion if they publicly ask for it, such as by coming forward at Mass.

Canon 912 Any baptized person who is not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to Holy Communion.

Canon 916 A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or to receive the Body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible.

However, the Code of Canon Law also provides,

Canon 915 Those who are excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion.

Who are those who must be refused, that is, "are not to be admitted to Holy Communion"? The moral and canonical tradition of the Church explains it as those who are "publicly unworthy" (1917 Code c. 855, 1), that is, who despite having been warned have not repented and repaired the public scandal ("obstinately persist") in some public condition of grave sinfulness ("manifest grave sin"). This certainly applies to anyone, and not just politicians, who publicly and unrepentantly promote and advance grave evils, such as abortion, which the Church has formally identified as such.
Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

Now, keep in mind, this is taking Canon Law to an extreme level, but that is what gets you ahead nowadays. This is from the ultra-conservative EWTN, they like the legalese.

Only a few noisy bishops do this nowadays, but the one who started it, Archbishop Raymond Burke is now in Rome on the panel that picks bishop promotions, so expect to see much more of this in future years.

This is a way of the Bishop to dictate his views (as laity are to be treated like children in neo-retro style dogma).

[JDPriestly]

132. Are Catholic politicians who vote for and support the death penalty or

preemptive wars also refused Communion? Seems like the death penalty and preemptive wars are just as murderous, just as prohibited by the Catholic religion. That has been my impression.

[CatholicEdHead]

135. In theory they should be

In real life, anything but abortion and gay marriage gets a quiet wave-off by the Bishops and a complicated moral argument is brought up. Yet when you try to get that same complicated moral argument towards abortion and gay marriage you get nowhere and get reprimanded with supposed absolutes.

[SharonAnn]

268. Yes, the Church is hung up on "the pelvic issues". It's really weird.

[24601]

255. The criteria regarding war is whether it is "just" as opposed it's

genesis as preemptive or responsive.

Is there anyone that would argue that a preemptive war that prevented WWII, the Nazis and all their attendant atrocities wouldn't be just? I'd be interested in that discussion.

[No Elephants]

241. Thank you, but I did not ask about the general policy as to communion.

I asked what sin Patrick Kennedy is supposed to have committed.

As far as I know, failing to vote the Catholic faith into the laws of America is not a sin, even under the doctrines of the Catholic Church. Perhaps abortion is a sin under the doctines of the church, but as best I can tell, Kennedy has not had an abortion. So, what's his sin?

[Demeter]

223. I Rec Your Post, And Advocate Taxing the Church NOW!

They want to break the rules of the land and act politically, they can pay the penalty.

[imdjh]

68. This church has perfected the workaround.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

90. From what I hear, theyre also good at the reacharound.

Tragic that such ignorant people have so much influence.

[imdjh]

91. good one

[saigon68]

237. Sodomizing Choir boys another feature of this Criminal cabal

[Taverner]

256. I have a question - wouldn't the folks in accounting get mad with him?

I mean - you want a large benefactor to the Catholic church, look no further than the Kennedy family.

Why would they want to kill the golden goose?

THAT I don't get

[mod mom]

69. If the bishop doesn't do the same toward the GOP supporters of war/torture, then IRS

should lose their tax exempt status.

[Dinger]

80. +1

[24601]

168. Here's why that won't work. Although people generally align Dem

or Repug on the abortion issue, it's not partisan in the context of prohibiting someone from engaging in partisan politics. To cross that line, there has to be an election for one offices, with one or more candidates running with a partisan party lable.

For example, with federal employees, it's the Office of Special Counsel or OSC, that oversees our partisan neutrality. In 1998, someone was wearing (at a work meeting) a button advocating the impeachment of Bill Clinton. My Office Chief was concerned about it and sent me to hunt up the policy. Going through our ethics attorney and , I reached who explained that impeachment wasn't a partisan issue even though the House and Senate pretty much voted straight party lines. In 1998, Bill Clinton wasn't a candidate for any office so the normal restrictions on employees didn't apply. Impeachment, said OSC, is a constitutional issue, not a partisan one, so the employee was within his/her rights to wear the button.

Abortion is similar in that the pro and con advocates normally are easily identified with partisan ; however, abortion also has who "cross party lines" and vote the way their constituents want. OSC would say that abortion is a legal and constitutional issue, not a partisan one.

[No Elephants]

243. Sorry, but either the ethics attorney was dumb or lying.

Impeachment is very much a political issue. That is the only kind of issue it is.

When no one is talking about impeaching anyone in particular, it may not be a partisan issue, but it is always a political issue.


"Impeach Bill Clinton" however, is both political and partisan.

Please also see TiredTexan's posts, especially Reply 95, which is beautifully reasoned.


The ONLY reason the Catholic Church will not lose it's tax exemption over this is that neither the IRS nor any President is going to take on the Catholic Church. Good on Patrick Kennedy for doing so, though.

[No Elephants]

97. Which sin did Patrick commit again?

[defendandprotect]

212. Exactly . . . and it's also a Catholic lie/distortion that any church official

has the power of "absolution" from sin --

First, if they truly believe that "Christ died for their sins" -- then they are forgiven...

Second, no one need ask any other person for forgiveness -- they are simply forgiven.

Third -- even playing the Catholic Confession/Absolution game, no priest could deny Kennedy

absolution -- it's inherent.

Fourth -- the power of the sacrament of communion itself is understood to be beneficial not

only to those in a state of grace, but those who are not!

[NoAmericanTaliban]

4. At least Kennedy isn't a child molester - the Bishop wouldn't ban him that

[Ian David]

5. The leadership of the Catholic Church is a terrorist organization. n/t

[ensho]

12. kick

nt

[laylah]

119. +1! nt

[marshall]

6. Free at last!

That ought to be his retort.

[Farzan]

21. So he is banned...

from this superstitious and ridiculous ceremony. Big deal. It is not like he can't attend one of those "Eyes wide shut" assemblies that would mean anything.

[SeattleGirl]

89. Just because you think it's superstitious and ridiculous doesn't mean

it doesn't have meaning for others.

You are free to believe or not believe anything you want. Don't you think others should have that same freedom?

[marshall]

111. When a church's dogma is defied, it doesn't have much meaning to the defiant

I was speaking from Kennedy's point of view. He is now free to find a church that is in agreement with his personal beliefs and choices. Or none at all--it's his call.

[defendandprotect]

214. Or -- stay and change the church -- which is the basic idea the church is fighting -- !!!

Unfortunately for the male-dominated church, most Catholics are ignoring them --

Kennedy is not an exception -- he's the rule --

And, this is not only a political attack on Kennedy -- it's an attempt to try to

publicly shame any who support Roe vs Wade.

Basically, not a chance in hell of that because most Catholics use birth control and

Catholic women have as many abortions as any other women!

In other words, the church is getting rough because they are losing.

That's why the "pro-life" murders --

They may still be a bit short on re-militarizing the church, but Bush did a fair job

of getting rid of Muslims for them!

PLUS giving them taxpayer money to subsidize their "faith-based" organizations . . .

or to pay off their pedophile lawsuits, which comes first, I guess!!!

[marshall]

218. I guess if you believe it's the one true church, the only path to "god", then yes

Otherwise, there's a multitude of other options out there, and fortunately we live in a country where one is free to choose.

[defendandprotect]

262. The obvious option is "no religion" but those who are brainwashed into religious theory . ..

it seems harder for them to totally break away from the one-all-male-god than it does

to move into another pew . . .

[Farzan]

184. Free to be stupid?

obviously that is all the rage. So no. I just draw the line humoring total stupidity.

[defendandprotect]

213. As with any other personal belief, we are here to challenge and question them . . ..

[hack89]

93. It is a big deal in the most Catholic state in the union. nt

[JDPriestly]

133. Do you mean to say that the Catholics in Rhode Island don't have

abortions and don't use birth control? I will bet you that only the most fanatical Catholics would vote against a Kennedy based on this issue.

[hack89]

137. Rhode Island is a socially conservative state

Kennedy is on thin enough ice already with his drug and behavior problems. The right opponent could certainly take advantage of this. He is my rep and I would love for him to be gone (to a Democrat of course). He is personally responsible for taking a lot of the luster off of the Kennedy name around here. He is both an idiot and a carpet bagger - for many moderate Catholics here this is simply the final straw.

[me b zola]

162. Moderate?

A bishop abuses his authority in the church, essentially extorts an elected official, and moderate catholics in RI would say that Kennedy is to blame?

[hack89]

187. Perhaps they don't see it as extortion?

Rhode Island is not a liberal or progressive state - it is blue collar, highly Catholic, poorly educated and socially conservative.

[defendandprotect]

215. That is as long as Catholics don't begin to speak publickly about birth control . . .

and using it -- !!!

And, about abortion and the fact that just as many Catholic women as any other women

have abortions -- !!!

Catholics need a speak out project -- for truth telling!!!

Kennedy isn't the exception, he's the rule!!

And that's the underlying fear/knowledge of the hierarchy -- they are on very thin ice and

they know it!!

[aquart]

103. Banned? But not ex-communicated? What's the difference?

Can he simply use a different diocese under a different bishop?

I take note, btw, that this insult to the Kennedy is an insult to women. Is he banning women from his church?

[boppers]

188. "Is he banning women from his church?"

Remind me again how many female Catholic bishops there are? How about Cardinals? How many female popes?

[defendandprotect]

216. You can usually make "deals" in the Catholic Church . . .

this is obviously a rabid, right wing Bishop -- Kennedy can probably find a friendlier one.

Kennedy can still attend church, but supposedly not receive communion at this one.

Different from ex-communication --

though you could still anonymously attend any church, to be ex-communicated is essentially

about being publicly embarrassed.

The right wing still embraces shame and embarrassment as a weapon to keep people in line!!

[AngryOldDem]

221. Yes, he can go to other dioceses and receive.

Gee...it surely must be one hell of a head trip to be able to mediate God's grace the way the bishops do.

And make no mistake...excommunication **is** the next step in the Church's drive to cleanse itself of pro-choice politicians. Watch for it.

[Farzan]

185. (oh boy. People are actually seriously talking about religion).

(And here I was hoping to have them sexually aroused by my Eyes Wide Shut reference. They got me talking to myself again. The only sane person I can reliably go to in times like this.)

[Hekate]

198. Right--you go talk to yourself and stop calling others stupid. nt

[Farzan]

207. I was on the Cell!

I was NOT talking to myself. And come on, anyone that believes in a religions definitely has a screw loose - by definition. They look functioning but do I want to spend time with them? No.

[Hekate]

226. Compassion and understanding are not exclusive to believers. Try practicing them.

My own mother was an agnostic, probably an atheist, yet she left room in her worldview (not to mention her heart) to have respect for believers of all faiths. You could try expanding your own heart and mind and see how that works.

Hekate

[Farzan]

236. This "understanding" business...

I can not have one for those that choose to believe in total nonsense. Just because you believe, it does not mean you are beyond approach. You do not get this protective shield around you.

[Hekate]

259. Did I say that? or is this the generic and non-personal "you"? You (and I do mean yourself)...

... don't need to be on the attack at all times. Based on what I've said here, I hope that one could deduce that I believe in the Golden Rule, which is fairly universal.

Hekate

[msongs]

7. in the bible what page gives authority to the pope to deny people from heaven? nt

[dotymed]

8. Yes, we Episcopalians

are the answer to the oppression of the Catholic church. It
amazes me (I guess it proves the "right" leanings of
the dumbed down citizens) that we are losing so many American
members. It used to be wherever you found a group of civic
minded, free thinking progressives, many of them were
Episcopalians, and a fun group of people.  We've always had
the strongest wine and great get togethers..

[Stuckinthebush]

11. Wait, I thought we Unitarian Universalists were the answer

Hmmm...I'll get a group together and some coffee and we'll discuss this.

:D

[jwirr]

17. Now wait just a minute! I was going to invite him to join us in the

ELCA Lutheran Church. We are liberal and open minded. Now all you others step in with all these other churches - what's a girl to do? :sarcasm:

[FirstLight]

52. +1

I'm an ELCA Member too...VERY liberal arm of the Lutheran Church.

[dotymed]

48. A terrific group of people.

Any "religion" that counts Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. has to be.

[JerseygirlCT]

76. I think

for those who have been accustomed to the liturgy of the RCC, the Episcopal Church is a very easy choice - though I'd be the last to say UUs aren't great, too!

[JerseygirlCT]

75. I know my small parish is not losing members, but growing

a huge crop of small kids, too - lots and lots of families, lots of singles... all are welcome, and we've attracted people because of it.

[shimmergal]

118. Welll, of course we've had

a bunch of Dominionists working from within to undermine the Episcopal church's unity, and our approach to social justice issues. This started in 1995, long before Gene Robinson became a bishop, but piggy-backing on extreme conservatives' reaction to ordaining women as priests.

There've been similar movements to undermine the Presbyterians, the Methodists, and other mainstream Protestant churches.

However, though the four dioceses splitting off has been more dramatic, the real decline in membership is, I think, more due to the "Bowling Alone" effect. Hard-pressed busy families don't have the time or energy for voluntary activities like church-going (or other face-to-face groups' meetings) Apparently those groups that threaten hellfire can overcome this, but we haven't found the carrot yet that has the same impact as that "stick." In fact it's the longstanding Christian insistence that "outside the church is no salvation" that's turned off a lot of baby-boomeers and generation X-ers. I don't know what the answer is! (But there've been some good discussions in the "Liberals/Progressive People of Faith" DU group.)

[Iowa]

148. Or just nix organized religion altogether.

There are some who would view it this way: Leaving Catholicism to join the Episcopalian church is leaving one false religion to join a kinder/gentler false religion... making a slight improvement while completely ignoring the underlying problem.

[TheCowsCameHome]

9. RRRRing! RRRRing! This is the IRS calling - is Bishop Tobin in?

Overdue, IMHO

[Botany]

25. Bingo

The Catholic Church worked in 2004 to help beat a good man in John Kerry ( A Catholic himself )
and I am willing to bet that Karl Rove made a deal to immunize the Church against many
lawsuits from priests fucking little boys.

I am all for pulling their tax exempt status.

[notadmblnd]

84. hell the catholic church probably provided the little boys for rove.

[No Elephants]

115. And girls.

[notadmblnd]

117. I think karl rove likes boys.

[No Elephants]

109. We've had a lot of those lawsuits in Massachusetts and girls were victimized, too,

especially by Fr. Porter. According to him it was a kick to be a kid's first sexual experience. He was an equal opportunity molester.

[dflprincess]

181. The priest discussed in "Deliver Us From Evil" also molested girls

as well as boys - many pedophiles are equal opporunity molesters because they're only interested in children who haven't reached puberty. This was in the LA diocese which thought his molesting of girls was just "natural curiostity" and had they known he was also molesting boys it would have been taken "more serously". No kidding, that's what they said.

It's a good documentary, though hard to watch at times.

[Frisbee]

49. That was my very first thought! n/t

[paulsby]

88. sorry

but this is not a violation. look, kennedy is pro-choice. he also happens to be a democrat. it doesn't make this a partisan political stance. also consider that this is specifically directed towards a person who promotes choice. there are people of other political parties who promote choice, and there are even dems who don't. it's not a political thang. it's a position thang. sorry, but the catholic church has every right to determine who does and who doesn't get to participate in their "sacred": rituals, just like any other religion

[TiredTexan]

95. Your response is either naive or disingenuous.

If the refusal of communion were solely based upon to Kennedy's position on abortion, the Bishop would similarly refuse communion to Catholics who backed the Iraq war, birth control, and the death penalty. In labor law, courts call excuses to fire a person "pretextual" if the reasons for termination are not applied to employees equally. Discrimination occurs even if the employee engaged in prohibited conduct, and other employees have not been fired for engaging in the same conduct, so long as there is an obvious prejudicial reason for the termination.

In this case, the Bishop's ruling is clearly pretextual or it would be applied to all Catholics who took a stance in contravention to the Church's position on matters involving life and death. Thus, if the Bishop were simply trying to enforce Church doctrine, he would enforce it equally against all Catholics, including prominent Republicans or Democrats who support the Iraq war, the death penalty or birth control. His failure to do so would convict him in any court of law of discrimination against Kennedy.

[defendandprotect]

166. You are correct . . . and in order for this not to be political, EVERY Catholic who votes

for a Democrat who supports Roe vs Wade/Choice would have to be barred from communion.

[paulsby]

192. rubbish

you clearly don't understand what the conditions are for a church to be stripped of their tax status. again, the ignorance of the law is astounding. the church is not held to employment law standards for its determination of who can and can't be members.

[JoeyT]

202. Do you know what it takes to strip a church of tax exempt status?

I don't think anyone actually knows because it never freaking happens no matter what they do.
The only group I can think of were the Scientologists in the 70s. So it requires being non-Christians and spying on the freaking government, apparently.

Edited to add: I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't think they can be stripped of tax exemption for this either.
Especially when a lot of Baptist and Southern Baptist churches didn't lose theirs when they openly campaigned for Republicans.
Lots of which were reported and hastily ignored.

[defendandprotect]

205. Pat Robertson got so out of hand in fairly recent times with "voter guides" that I think ...

that caused some action -- didn't it?

At least a review?

[paulsby]

230. i am reminded of martin luther king and the SCLC

by the "logic" used by many people in this thread, what king and those churches did was illegal and violative of their tax exempt status. certainly, organizing CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE in OPPOSITION to established law is a much greater political act than excluding an individual member who happens to be in congress.

MLK , the SCLC et al did not violate their tax exempt status and neither is the catholic church

[defendandprotect]

208. Think you responded to the wrong message . . .HOWEVER,

if you were trying to respond to mine . . .

it was not about tax status --

it was about whether the decision to bar Kennedy from communion was "political" --

Again, if they are not trying to make a political statement then they would have to

bar any member who voted for Kennedy -- or who continues to support Roe vs Wade.

Catholics have chosen to ignore Papal "infallibility" on birth control -- and Catholic

women also have as many abortions as any other women.

Therefore, at some point, the pavement is coming up to smack the male-dominated church

in the forehead!

[paulsby]

231. you misunderstand what kind of "political statements"

churches can make and retain their tax exempt status

look at MLK and the SCLC. they used black churches to organize civil disobedience, including violating the law (at the time).

that was definitely a POLITICAL statement, as well as a moral statement.

did MLK and those black churches violate their tax exempt status?

no

and neither is the catholic church

[defendandprotect]

234. Depends on what you're using a church for . . . to control women?

That's OK with you?

Ending Segregation was, of course, a noble cause -- long overdue --

Protecting pedophile priests and trying to control the sex lives of members -- and much

of society -- by preventing access to sexual education and limiting research on birth control --

and preventing women from getting abortions; many because their lives and health are at risk ....

not such good ideas.

The RCC is incapable any longer of a "moral statement" -- it's over.

Where did MLK, Jr. by the way try to influence who the nation voted for?

MLK spoke against segregation -- against war --

It's time to tax this church and its real estate holdings -- its stock portfolios!

[paulsby]

247. it has nothing to do with what i am ok with

we are talking about the LAW. iow, what violates tax exempt status or not

whether or not the cause is a "good" cause (clearly, we think voting rights are a good cause, and "fetal" rights aren't), is not relevant.

MLK spoke against war and segregation. he ALSO spoke against politicians, such as bull connor.

there cannot be a double standard. i suggest you actually READ the IRS manual regarding what is and isn't a violation. i would assume you haven't. it's actually quite enlightening

but as far as legal analysis goes, it does not matter whether you or i (or anybody) thinks the cause(s) the church is advocating for are good or bad. i would hope you can understand this

[defendandprotect]

249. This is a male-supremacist church trying to control women . . .

how does anyone sanction that?

Don't take it personally -- just look around you and ask that question --

There are two different issues here --

the action against Kerry is political and intended to embarrass him publickly --

and to work as a threat against any other Catholic politicians supporting "Choice."

Certainly a Pope telling Catholics NOT to vote for Kerry should cause them to

lose their tax exempt status --

Certainly any male-supremacist religion/church financing campaigns against Equal

Rights Amendments, homosexual rights should cause them to lose their tax exempt status --

Certainly, Pat Robertson's "voter guides" caused problems -- rightly so!

The church is not permitted to interfere in STATE affairs -- that's the basis of

Separation of Church & State --

A "moral" message. . . if this church can still summon one -- speaking against war, of course --

however, I see no message from the Vatican condemning Bush or Obama for these wars?
Did I miss it?


but as far as legal analysis goes, it does not matter whether you or i (or anybody) thinks the cause(s) the church is advocating for are good or bad. i would hope you can understand this

First, it does matter what the cause is --
In the case of MLK, Jr. he was moving the government to rightful action, forcing them to positions
they were trying not to deal with in the case of Segregation, Inc. -- and the Vietnam War.

I never heard MLK say "Don't vote for LBJ" ... Did you?

MLK prodded the conscience of America and its politicians --

A male-supremacist church trying to hold on to control over human sexuality -- while it ignores
its own sexual scandals -- would be simply pitiful if it wasn't so dangerous for women's health
and well-being. In fact, for the health and well-being of families and their children.

and ...

(clearly, we think voting rights are a good cause, and "fetal" rights aren't),

Can you outline what you think "fetal" rights are?

For instance, do you think a young girl who has been raped by her father should consider those
"fetal" rights?

Late term abortions have to be approved -- it is a woman's right to self-defense, though the
assailant is a fetus within her own body.

[paulsby]

254. way to completely evade the issue

i never said what the catholic church is doing is good or morally justified. i said it did not violate tax exempt status.

you are correct that MLK never said "don't vote for LBJ". and nobody has produced any evidence that the person in this case said "don't vote for kennedy"

it's an exact parallel and the catholic church is acting within the bound of federal law for tax exempt churches.

just as MLK and the SCLC was

hth

[defendandprotect]

267. AGAIN, you're confusing Kennedy with the other issues we are discussing . . .

They are DIFFERENT --

No one is asking that the church be taxed for Kennedy -- though it is obviously a POLITICAL

ploy to try to stop dissent. They won't be able to, of course. This is going to create an

even bigger mess for them --

-------------- WATCH IT . . . COMPLETE CONCEPT FOLLOWS . . .


The BASIS of the discussion re TAXING the church is IN GENERAL --

Try to get that point --

If they did nothing about Kennedy or anyone else, we still think that Churches should be TAXED!!!

And correct, MLK, Jr. did NOT advocate that anyone vote for or against any politician.

However, the POPE told Catholics that voting for John Kerry would be a sin!!!

And that message was delivered to American Catholics.



MLK was NOT a church, not a POPE --

We have a whole pack of US Catholic Bishops and Rome involved in the Stupak Amendment

. . . there is no comparison to MLK, Jr.

MLK, Jr. NEVER wrote any legislation for the Congress --

And, again, there is a huge difference between EXPANDING HUMAN RIGHTS as MLK, Jr. did --

and the Vatican which has long been involved in trying to LIMIT HUMAN RIGHTS for women,

homosexuals, etal.

Especially in running stealth campaigns with tax-exempt dollars in order to do so.


Try to get over Kennedy . . . that's NOT the point --

LOOK at the rest of what I'm saying to you about the need to tax churches in general!!

[TiredTexan]

225. My post explains a logic concept by allegory.

I never said that employment standards applied to the Bishop's refusal of communion. I said that the context of "pretextual" applies. If I did not make this clear, my apologies.

My point is that if the conduct is not consistent across the board, applied in a fair and uniform manner, then you look to see if it is pretextual. The only way to measure that is to determine whether the Bishop has refused communion to others, and on what grounds. If abortion is about the death of a person (the Catholic Church's position, not mine), then in order to be consistent, the Bishop would need to refuse communion to Catholics - including both Democrats and Republicans - who voted for the Iraq war resolution, supported the death penalty, and support abortion. That he did not do so makes clear his actions are pretextual, and are directed at Kennedy for reasons other than those stated. Given that no Republican politicians have been denied communion, his reasons are obviously pretextual, and are almost certainly based upon Kennedy's political party affiliation.

And, while I agree the Catholic Church clearly has the right to do what it did, the power of someone to do something is never a valid reason for doing it. Bush clearly had the right as president to attack Iraq. Whether that was a reasonable decision is another matter altogether. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[paulsby]

232. whether or not the church has a valid reason

was not something i addressed. i simply said that by making this decision, they are not violating their tax exempt status. i stand by that statement. god knows MLK and the SCLC did a lot of political stuff. this wasn't nearly as political as marching and committing civil disobedience. people here fail to understand what exactly churches can and can't do and keep their tax status.

look at MLK and move on from there imo

[defendandprotect]

235. No -- the action against Kennedy is "political" . . . however, their overall involvement

in Stupak amendment --

their involvement in using tax-exempt $ to fight the ERA amendment --

their involvement in Prop 8 -- and now in Maine . . .

THOSE are the reasons for ending tax-exempt status --

Also including the Pope telling Catholics to vote for Kerry -- !!!

MLK is not a parallel in any way to this situation --

[No Elephants]

242. You did not understand TiredTexan's Reply 95. It is reasoned with sophistication, not with a blunt

intrument. However, no Catholic Church is going to lose its exemption because neither the IRS nor any President will go after it.

[defendandprotect]

251. Maybe not now, but as more Americans wake up to this scam . . .

it could happen --

[defendandprotect]

252. Rather, I think you did not understand --

either post --

Try again --

[defendandprotect]

250. There is no comparison between MLK and his activities as a member of a church . . .

and a VATICAN which is male-supremacist trying to control reproduction --

[dflprincess]

179. Actually, they rationalize only doing this sort of thing when abortion and Gay marriage is involved

by claiming that those two issues are "intrinsically evil". (Or so they say on the local conservative Catholic radio station which I sometimes listen to to remind myself to thank God that I lapsed).

The Church does subscribe to the "just war" theory so even though John Paul II told Bush he was going into Iraq "without God" supporting that war is not "intrinsically evil" nor is supporting the death penalty (go figure). I'll have to admit I really don't understand these rationalizations, I just know they make them. (BTW, they also call Obama the most "prodeath" president we've ever had and it's not because he's thinking about escalating in Afghanistan, that never gets mentioned.)

Forty percent of the Gestapo claimed to be Catholic; I never heard that the Church refused Communion to any Nazis - apparently they were not intrinsically evil either.

[defendandprotect]

209. Really interesting comments . . . !!!

Obviously, again, fertilized eggs are more important to the Catholic Church than

the lives of 1.5 million Muslims.

And, IMO, that makes Bush the "pro-death" president of all time --

if not the new religious "Crusader"--!!

I've yet to hear one word of condemnation from the Church/Vatican of "Pro-Life" murderers

of doctors!!

[defendandprotect]

253. RCC and Mormons also defeated the Equal Rights Amendment ..with tax-exempt dollars . . .

[paulsby]

191. your response fails to understand BASIC legal and constitutional law

here's a hint. even if the decision is arbitrary and pretextual. it DOESN'T matter. the church is a private religious institution. the bishop would not be CONVICTED of anything, because it's not a crime for the catholic church to BE arbitrary or pretextual, and that's assuming arguendo that they are. also, fwiw, realistically speaking, it's not kennedy's position. lots of catholics hold that position, and the church DOES look the other way. it's his public advocacy FOR that position that irks them. regardless, using EMPLOYMENT law as an analogy is weak. the church doesn't have to abide by employment law. i go to my union meetings, i read the case law. employment law has little to no relevance to this issue. and btw, "convict" implies a criminal proceeding, which is even more ridiculous

[defendandprotect]

210. The Church cannot interfere in State affairs . . . let's nail that one . . .

[paulsby]

229. they aren't. get a clue in re: martin luther king

look, you really don't get this. by excluding a member, that is a matter of their own internal politics. if you are a congressmember and I exclude you from my house. iow, i don't like your viewpoints, i can do that. i'm not "interfering in state affairs".

freedom of religion matters. i realize that every time the catholic church does stuff that pisses us off, people want to constrict those rights. but that's wrong.

let's look at the REVEREND martin luther king...

"In 1957, King, Ralph Abernathy, and other civil rights activists founded the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLC). The group was created to harness the moral authority and organizing power of black churches to conduct non-violent protests in the service of civil rights reform."

quoted from wikipedia page. let's see here. King and others founded the SCLC. the group was created to "harness the moral authority and organizing power of black churches to conduct non-violent protests in the service of civil rights reform".

by your "logic", those black churches were "interfering in state affairs". they certainly did far more to interfere in state affairs than the catholic church is doing by authorizing their authority over membership. get real.

i have yet to see anybody claim the SCLC was illegal/ran contrary to laws regarding tax status etc.

that's because ... wait for it... they didn't.

ditto for the catholic church

[Tansy_Gold]

238. They don't get it, friend, and you're beatin' your head against the brick wall

But I'm with you on this one.

The Church has the right to its beliefs and to refuse its rituals to anyone they so desire.

Patrick Kennedy may identify himself as "A Catholic," but if he does not follow the Church's precepts, then he is a CINO and the Church has the right to refuse him its sacraments.

If he puts his political position ahead of his church's position, then he needs to change churches.

FWIW, Mr. K, (in a whisper) I don't think god gives a shit.



TG

[defendandprotect]

263. You're confusing two issues --

First, we are saying that the attack on Kennedy is "political" -- and of course it is.
Do they have a right under our Constitution to excommunicate a member or bar them from
service -- of course. It is an attempt by the RCC to try to intimidate other Catholic
members who support Roe vs Wade and abortion and birth control.
Political . . . yes. A tax-exempt status concern . . . no.

OK . . . ?

What we are saying is there have been MANY intrusions into state affairs which require
that they lose their tax-exempt status --

The Pope telling American Catholics that it would be a sin to vote for Kerry, would be one.

They are free, of course, to speak out as much as they want against abortion -- but killing
doctors and/or specifically suggesting that one American candidate or another is NOT to be
voted for is different.

The RCC and Mormon churches' stealth campaign against the ERA with tax-exempt dollars would
be another --

The RCC/Mormon Church financing of a campaign re Prop 8 with tax exempt dollar would be another.

The RCC/Mormon Church financing of a campaign against the Maine referendum on homosexual marriage
would be yet another --


And re Martin Luther King, Jr --

Was the Southern Christian Leadership Conference a "church"?

Or were they individuals who were calling African-American Christians forward to fight
for their civil rights?

Was it done openly? Did it use "church" money for the campaigns or did they rely on contributions?

Was it a dictatorship where they were insisting that ALL members of these churches had to participate?

And did they specifically tell voters whom to vote for or against?

by your "logic", those black churches were "interfering in state affairs". they certainly did far more to interfere in state affairs than the catholic church is doing by authorizing their authority over membership. get real.

Again -- there is no problem with the church speaking publickly against women's rights, or
homosexual rights -- the problem is financing a stealth campaign against a Federal or State issue --with tax-exempt dollars.

Nor is there EVER any problem with anyone advocating for human rights --

civil rights, right to health care, right to shelter, right to food.

It is a problem, however, when a male-supremacist church wants to LIMIT the rights of women and
their reproductive freedom.

Or LIMIT the rights of homosexuals -- or anyone else.

There are rarely any concerns with EXPANDING RIGHTS -- LIMITING THEM IS ANOTHER ISSUE.

And . . .

I know the MLK, Jr. comparison is a favorite old right wing tactic -- but it doesn't wash.


FURTHER . . . to summarize this movement to tax the churches, in any case -- no church's

total assets should be tax exempt. A church and its surrounding property and its soup kitchens

should be tax-exempt. NOT all of a Church's real estate holdings -- nor it's stock portfolios.

THAT'S the bottom line in this issue --

[TheCowsCameHome]

101. Kennedy is being singled out, and it is political.

I don't see the Bishop going after anyone with similar views but Representative Kennedy.

[defendandprotect]

167. Any Catholic who voted for Kennedy would also have to be denied communion . . . this could ...

get very interesting!!!

[paulsby]

193. they may very well be

but it doesn't threaten their tax status. the average catholic, pro choice or not, is not a public figure in the public eye advocating for and fighting for choice (which btw, i am glad kennedy is pro choice, and i used to live in RI). the church tends to look the other way in regards to individuals' beliefs in this regard. they tend to be more doctrinaire when their beliefs are publically and widely attacked by an individual, regardless of whether he happens to be a politician. the fact that kennedy happens to be a politician is not relevant to whether this act strips their tax status. all i said is the analysis that they are putting their tax status in jeapardy by taking this stance against kennedy is absurd

[defendandprotect]

211. Of course it's about Kennedy . . . otherwise they'd be excommunicating members who support Choice-!!

Not going to happen because just as many Catholic women as any other women have

abortions --

and pretty much all Catholics use birth control --

The RCC is going over the cliff --

[paulsby]

228. that very well may be

but they are not putting their tax exempt status at risk in this case. that's my only point.

do i disagree with the catholic church? of course. but it's THEIR church, they can include or exclude whomever they like

[defendandprotect]

264. I agree with you re Kennedy, it's "political" but has nothing to do with tax-exempt status ... but

many other issues they've been involved do have bearing on tax-exemption --

and in general, we would be wise to suspend all tax-exemption for churches for

other than their church and surrounding property -- and their soup kitchens.

Their real estate holdings and stock portfolios should be taxed.

[No Elephants]

110. How many Republicans promote choice? Being pro-Republican is being partisan.

The IRS will not touch the Catholic Church, nor will any President allow the IRS to touch the Catholic Church, but its position is partisan, even if they do get off on a technicality.

The IRS needs to change its regulations, IMO, but that's probably never going to happen either.

[paulsby]

194. whether or not it's "partisan", it does NOT

affect their tax status. again, people seem to think the church is bound by employment law in how they treat their members, and that they have to be fair. they DON'T have to be fair. that's my point. can they be arbitrary? sure. the founders did not want govt. telling churches how to manage and select their membership. hth

[No Elephants]

245. You need to read up on IRS regulations governing loss of tax exempt status for churches

that engage in partisan political activity.

This is not about employment law. (I have no clue where you are getting that.)

It is about getting tax exempt status because you fit within the description of Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (in this case, a church or a religious organization), then losing your exemption per IRS regulations because you are engaging in activities that are not within your tax exempt purpose (in this case, partisan political activity).

[defendandprotect]

165. It's a distortion of what the "sacrament of communion" is about ...

You want to bet that the "Pro-Life murderers" of various doctors are receiving communion?

Whether or not to receive communion is up to the member -- not a Bishop.

Pre-the overturning of "Confession" .... one had to Confess to be in a state of grace.

More enlightened periods have eliminated confession -- see Pope John XXIII/Vatican II --

And it has always been believed that receiving communion is an aid to the individual in

reaching a state of grace.

These are Catholic thugs -- no different from Repug thugs --

And I'd love to see Patrick Kennedy take on the Church -- in all issues.

[Skittles]

189. what about pro-war politicians?

how about they get banned from communion? It's all fucking horseshit.

[Zodiak]

10. And how many Republicans are denied because of war and death penalty?

None?

Then this is a POLITICAL move, and should be seen as such.

The Catholic leadership had best stay out of American politics.

[mackerel]

14. For of those of you who are not Irish Catholic

bare in mind this is a slap to our ethnicity. Many of our people have starved
for being Irish & Catholic. There would hardly be an Irish diaspora in the U.S. if it
were not for 'the hunger.'

[defendandprotect]

30. Given the opportunity, the Irish have also walked away from the RCC . . .

Let's remember this is a Vatican which "converted" thru intimidation and violence --

introduced the cross with the sword --

When that militarization was ended, when it's influence over Irish government ended, the

Irish were free to begin to return to their own natural beliefs -- pre-Vatican.

[CatholicEdHead]

64. Probably true

but this is part of the greater push with a hyper-emphasis on abortion and gay marriage the neo-retros are pushing to move everyone out who does not toe the Bishops' line 100%.

[DonCoquixote]

13. This needs to be hammered home

There are many left wing catholics in the world, Heck, Hugo Chavez is one. So are many of the more hardcore peace activists, the ones that were anti-war and anti-death penalty before it was cool. However, the fact is that under John Paul II and Benedict, the Church has gone solidly to the right. Yes, John Paul and Benedict both gave speeches against Materialism and the excess of Capitalism, but at the risk of giving Capitalist devils their due, the world they seek is a new Dark Age, where Faith trumps Reason, and we roll back to many behaviors and attitudes that needed to go a long time ago. They may say they are not trying to oppress women, or gays, or minorities, but their reason is so polluted that even if you show them the harm they do, that their behavior is NOT Christlike, they will simply roll along the set path, like so many juggernaut locomotives. Just like many of their spiritual brothers in Al Qaida, they may sincerely believe they are saving the world, but we all know what road is paved with good intentions.

As a former Catholic, that at times does miss the Church, it hurts me to say this; the time will come when Catholics will need to say, very clearly, that they cannot support the institution, especially because right now, The Catholic church is destroying itself. Their stance on Birth Control is undermining whatever good they can do in the Third World, and their other stances have made them a joke in Europe and America. If you actually love the Church, you will not sit by while it does the equivalent of driving drunk.

[defendandprotect]

28. Why try to save this church? It's a male-supremacist society -- anti-democracy ...

anti-democracy for all --

The Vatican still does not acknowledge the full personhood of females as it acknowledges the
full personhood of males --

The Vatican still seeks oppression of homosexuals and is willing to spend their tax-exempt
dollars to see that is carried out --

Clear and simply, we have to make clear that neither the Pope nor the Vatican run America--!!!

[DonCoquixote]

92. Ponder this

If the Catholics could become a more liberal group, they could be a force that humanizes. Ponder a church with a Latin American Pope that was more liberal, it could serve ammo to the Jeebus Freeks.

On the other hand, ponder if the Church fell, who would be able to scoop up the members crying for a home?

Just like the Fall of the Soviets in Russia, and the fall of the Baath in Iraq, certain things sound really good, until the revolutionary fervor stops and people wonder what takes the place of what was left. 9 times out of 10, revolutions go 360 degrees.

[defendandprotect]

169. Problem isn't individual members ... it's the hiearchy and their teachings!!!

Ponder "no religion" . . .

Catholics ARE A MORE LIBERAL GROUP -- they use birth control -- and Catholic women get

abortions at the same rate as any other women!!

If the Church falls it will be because Catholics walk away -- not because the church decides

to close its doors.

Ask yourself where Catholics are going now as they leave -- much of Ireland now rethinking

Catholicism and moving on --

Much of Western Europe -- moving on --

Much of Canada and US -- no more Catholic Church --

The Vatican is moving on into Africa and China -- $$$$$$$$$$$$ -- where it finds its fortunes

rising!!

You're naive about Russia, as well. America has kept Russia down -- we've backed organized

crime there -- undermined and exploiting the country in as many ways as possible.

We could have aided Russia and the Russians -- rather we have permitted the hardships.

[BlueMTexpat]

41. Thanks for saying this because I know/have known many more Catholics.

who are genuinely good human beings than who are not.
That said, and as a former "cradle Catholic" of Irish descent, I personally gave up on the Catholic Church as an institution, and for that matter, all religious "mumbo-jumbo," especially any hierarchy that treats women as second-class citizens, many long years ago.
Once one has tasted freedom, it's very difficult to go back to the subjugation.
Also, IMO, NO religious institution should be tax-exempt.

[SkankWhisperer]

130. Spot On, Tex - NOW Can we Tax ALL Churches?

To varying degrees they are all guilty of preaching politics from the pulpit.
Oh, temples and mosques need to pay their dues as well.

[Harry Monroe]

45. I'm still a Catholic and a left-wing one.

If they knew how I felt about abortion, they'd probably kick me out too!!

[obietiger]

99. Same thoughts for me!

and - Bishop Tobin was my Bishop when he was in the Youngstown diocese. Didn't realize that he had been moved to RI.

[defendandprotect]

171. You're supporting a male-supremacist organization . . .

doesn't that bother you?

[No Elephants]

I don't see why. If you are a male, you will never have an abortion and if you are not

a legislator, you will never pass a pro-choice law. I don't think the Church (or any religion) kicks you out for thoughts on which you never act.

[No Elephants]

120. Self delete. Dupe.

[defendandprotect]

170. But do you give them $$$$$$$$ and support . . . ???

Obviously, RCC -- and Mormon Church -- fought the ERA with tax-exempt dollars --

They've been involved in Prop8 -- and now in Maine --

Beyond their teachings, they are politically active -- and effective in denying

freedom/human rights to many!

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theorbiter]

18. Yes...

because EVERY single person who practices a systematic spiritual expression should be painted with the broad brush stroke of "moron". Brilliant!

[Trajan]

50. Handing over your own sense of reason ....

and allowing others to mold your worldview and control the course of your life with doubtful, unsubstantiated theological precepts is hardly flattering ....

Morons ? .... Perhaps not ....

Silly mindless lazy sheep ?

Perhaps ....

I think Kennedy's biggest problem is not his being denied the sacrament of the host, but the fact that he is Theist to begin with ....

Signed,
Ex-Catholic Atheist ....

[theorbiter]

72. Congrats...

and your graduate religion of choice is called ATHEISM. Complete with it's own dogma(Dogma: a belief held without evidence)and egotistical sense of superiority....just like the other religions it claims superiority over. Make no mistake, like any other ego extension, given the power and opportunity the dogma of atheism would become just another power hungry, controlling force of corruption. The proof is in the negative adjectives bandied about by atheist to contritely sum all theist up as sheep, lazy, morons, and the haughty airs which generally accompany these negative labels.

Atheism just as easily becomes a simpletons viewpoint, as one who blindly follows an organised religion. Most of my atheist friends could give themselves a huge intellectual boon and eschew this label which only gives the impression that they too are sheep, but then they would be giving up an important part of what they perceive as their identity.

[AspenRose]

79. Welcome to DU!

:applause: :applause:

[JackDragna]

114. Your post is hilarious.

If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color. Atheism is not a religion: there are even religions that have atheism as one of their tenets. There is no "dogma" behind atheism save for a common lack of belief in God.

[No Elephants]

123. Atheists on this board usally sound a lot alike, though. They say there is no God with more

certainty than any Pope or other religious leader says, "There is a God, but I, like all people of faith, have my "dark nights of the soul." Yet, neither the atheist nor the religious leader can prove empirically their belief. They insult people of faith with as much bigotry and self righteous indignation as any Rick Warren wannabe.

Maybe atheism is not technically a religion. Maybe some of the more vocal atheists here just seem to have grabbed all the ugliest parts of beliefs that cannot be proven, leaving behind the parts that are nuturing and lovely.

[defendandprotect]

173. True, any one of intelligence understands you can neither prove nor disprove the

existence of a "god" or "gods" --

However, that doesn't make atheism a religion --

It makes atheism a statement of disbelief in theism --

When we think of "ugliness, violence, dictates" it is certainly not atheism that is being

thought of --

rather it is male supremacist religions which sprang from the Vatican's teachings and from

Hewbrew teachings of a one-male "god."

[No Elephants]

246. Maybe you meant to reply to another poster? I never said atheism was a religion.

I merely stated atheism and religion have some things in common, including ugliness and bigotry on the part of some of their "believers." I'll add some others: closed minds, lack of willingness to investigate or reflect, tunnel vision, etc.

[defendandprotect]

261. What was this . . . ?

Maybe atheism is not technically a religion. Maybe some of the more vocal atheists here just seem to have grabbed all the ugliest parts of beliefs that cannot be proven, leaving behind the parts that are nuturing and lovely.

Of course my response to you was appropriate --

[defendandprotect]

172. "If atheism is a religion, then bald is a hair color" -- Love it!!

[Trajan]

143. Nonsense

If there were various theological claims asserting magical unicorns ruled the universe, would my denial of those unfounded claims also constitute an equally mythological A-unicornism ?

Would Aunicornism become an equal but opposite mythological precept ? ....

Promoting no belief in something is the same as promoting a belief in that something's opposite ?

Poppycock .... rubbish .... and you know it, even as you dance around it ...

A choice to disbelieve an unfounded claim doesn't automatically create an equally unfounded belief in the opposite of that claim ....

Just more ridiculous apologism from a committed religious extremist who obviously delights in shoving their defective rhetoric up our collective asses ....

Is it any wonder we might tire of it eventually ? ....

[defendandprotect]

34. Thomas Jefferson made some comments about the effects of brainwashing by religion . . .

it's a powerful method of keeping members down and helpless --

the fear of the church and "god" becomes part of them . . . and as I recall it

Jefferson compared it to a monkey's fear of snakes.

This is NOT a church which has permitted free thought or freedom of conscience --

this is a church of dictates -- and those who have been victimized by it are slow to

recover, even when given the opportunity.

Look at Ireland, for one -- and the control the Vatican had over the Irish government

and its policies and how long it has taken to end that alliance!

Shall we permit that to happen here?

[defendandprotect]

16. Guess that takes care of anyone with a free conscience . . .!!! Not in RCC...!!!

[kestrel91316]

19. If I were to become a regular churchgoer, it would be either UU or Episcopal.

[Botany]

20. Attn. Catholic Church Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope

Eat shit and die you are not the hand of God on Earth even though you like to
pretend you are, you are in no position to sit in judgment of others, and the
way you used the legal system to protect yourself from massive lawsuits because
of the sexual molestation of children and others by your priests was and still
is shameful.

[bulloney]

59. Many priests and parishioners really do believe they're the hand of God on Earth.

They think we're actually eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood during communion. Funny thing, it still tastes like bread and wine.

I'd like to see a test of the chemical composition of the bread and wine before and after it's blessed, just to see if there are any changes. My contention is that there would be none. I've argued that the whole blessing and communion ritual during masses is symbolic, which is what religions largely are. Boy, do I get a lot of stern looks after making such a statement.

[galadrium]

22. I would wear that as a badge of honor.

Why anyone would want to be a member of a cult like that is beyond me.

[liberalmuse]

23. If I had 'The Inquisition' in my past...

I would not presume to dictate 'the sanctity of life' to someone else. They ban people who support women's rights from communion, but merely shuffle priests around when they rape children. While most Catholics I've met are really awesome people, the religio-political institution itself is an atrocity. Always has been, always will be.

[Chipper Chat]

24. The Kennedy Family should immediately $top their tithing $$$$$ to the church.

And I'm sure that's a BIG annual sum. Hurt the bishop where it count$.

[TexasThoughtCriminal]

26. It's Kennedy (D-RI), NOT (D-Vatican)

Rep. Kennedy represents all the citizens of Rhode Island regardless of religious persuasion. The bishop should be reminded of that.

[Hulk]

27. I'm stopping my tithing as of this day!

I'm not a "Kennedy donation", but the Catholic Church has seen the LAST of my tithing. In my 62 years of practicing as a Catholic, THIS is the last straw. I will donate to the poor on the streets of San Miguel, where I live; but I will from this day forward NEVER donate one red cent to the Catholic Church or ANY of it's church's that are in connection with this pathetic, evil and f*cked up bishop.

F*CK YOU tobin, you spawn of Satan. ...any all those like you!

[No Elephants]

124. I hope you write the Vatican and share that info with them. And let them know that, while you wrote

they will probably not hear from the others who are giving up their financial support of the church, but they exist,

[fascisthunter]

29. So the Catholic Church wants to turn away more folks I See

what a waste of time dividing people for political reasons.... it's why my mother after 60+ years has left the catholic church as well. They are dumber than I realized....

[NotNarrow]

31. Recall the ambassador to the Vatican

In no other instance would interference in the internal affairs of the United States of America be tolerated. Obama, recall the ambassador for consultations. It is an acceptable and customary diplomatic measure.

[defendandprotect]

38. There shouldn't even be an Ambassador to Vatican -- Reagan began that horror . . .

[24601]

155. I'll disagree on this point. The Vatican is a soverign and sending

an ambassador is in line with the international community.

[defendandprotect]

178. A "soverign state" with no females . . . one mile wide? Hardly!

Yes, the Vatican has also gained that status at the UN --

and that should also be reversed --

Again, this was something instituted by Reagan -- and not much of legitimacy happened there,

as we all know!

[24601]

186. Legitimacy is not measured by gender or in miles. It is what it is

and it's not in the cards to reverse it. Any US administration recalling our ambassador and leading a UN charge to revoke statehood would please a handful of Americans and piss off a whole lot. They could forget about ever getting a meaningful portion of the Catholic vote.

[defendandprotect]

217. Are you kidding . . . there's a national movement to deny "sovereignity" to Vatican at UN . . .

and long has been -- !!

Much of what Reagan did would be reversed if Democrats were in power long enough --

It's not about power, it's about what is the right thing to do --

And a male-supremacist nation -- one mile wide -- or 1,000 miles wide -- is not fit to

be considered "sovereign" either at the UN or as far as American government/Ambassadorships

are concerned.

[24601]

219. And then who's next, Israel, China, the US? People should spend

more time dealing with the reality than pinning their hopes on changing the conditions. How many seats would remain Democratic without Catholic voters? They don't even have to votes Repug, just staying home would swing it in marginal districts.

[defendandprotect]

265. When they become "CHURCHES" let us know -- !!!

Did you think our Founders hand "separated" STATE and China, Israel, or the US?

Our founders understood the dangers of CHURCH to democracy ....

That's the basis of Separation of Church & State -- C H U R C H --!!!

[RainDog]

32. Liberals should not give any money to the Catholic church

if every church in this nation closed down tomorrow, that money and those buildings could be used to actually help people instead of fund a decrepit and entirely corrupt system of patronage for a wealthy few at the expense of the many.

The Catholic Church is like Bernie Maddoff with a tax exemption.

[defendandprotect]

39. Think that real estate belongs to the Vatican . ...????

As I recall it, the parishes built with members' dollars actually are deeded to the

Vatican????

[katkat]

82. church owns the real estate

You bet, "the church" owns the physical churches. That's why you see churches being closed and parishioners camping out to try to save them, because the latter don't legally own them.

As to money, people are starving in the streets, and the Providence Journal ran an article a day or two ago about the Open Table of Christ Church removing some of its pews to make room for meals for the poor. Meanwhile the Catholic Church is using gold chalices, etc.

[olegramps]

102. During the early history of the Catholic Church in America the people owed the churches.

[TexasProgresive]

161. They always belonged to the diocese. n/t

[defendandprotect]

164. Do you have any info on how this was changed . . . ?

[olegramps]

204. Here is some info. See Step 7.

Catholic Reform from Below
10 steps to a constitutional parish and mature self-governance
By LEONARD SWIDLER

In the beginning of the fourth century, the Catholic church underwent a momentous shift from an “illegitimate” oppressed group of scattered communities to a protected “legitimate” religion, and before the end of that century, as a result of the religious revolution that began in 313 under Constantine, it had become the all-powerful, only legitimate state religion of the Roman Empire.
In the beginning of the 21st century the Catholic church is teetering on the edge of a similarly momentous shift. All the world today is either solidly on the path of democracy, or is striving to get on it. This is also true of the Catholic church, which moved from condemning democracy and freedom as madness (“deliramentum”) in the 19th century to affirming “reform, freedom, dialogue, collegiality” (Vatican II) in the 20th, and is moving toward democratization in the 21st. The current clergy sex scandals are in reality church governance scandals, and all signs point to more church closings, diocesan bankruptcies, confiscation of parish properties and destruction of communities by the time the full effect of the scandal has been felt. At the same time there is a corresponding lay resistance and growing revolt. And not just in America, but around the world.

In the wake of the scandal and more than $1 billion already paid out, many Catholics are asking themselves: Whatever happened to the Vatican II promise of a collegial church (in plain English, a democratic church)? The response rising up is: Leadership from above cannot be expected; Vatican II reform and renewal must come from below, from the laity, religious and priests.
Here is a 10-step program from below that aims at a parish constitution and the forming of a nonprofit organization, technically called a 501(c)(3). Both components are essential, the former to shape the governance of a mature Catholic community, and the latter to create a financial “field of force,” which will make the parish community -- laity, religious, clergy -- a mature self-governing community integrated into the diocese, national church and universal church.

Step 1: Prepare the minds of the laity to take responsibility
We must first recognize that this is a very uneven struggle against a structure that places almost all the power in one set of hands, the bishop’s. Hence, to begin this democratic church movement from below we need to have a pastor and some parish laity of a Vatican II mentality. Then “Father Goodpastor” and the lay leaders need to devise a program to raise the consciousness of the parish to realize that all the members must share the responsibility of making their parish a mature Catholic community. This might take anywhere from six days to six years, and could include many sermons, lecture series, gradual development of parish structures, and many other creative methods. The goal is to get, if not all, at least the great majority of the parish to follow the lead of the pope and all the bishops of the world in Vatican II (1962-65):
All are led to ... wherever necessary, undertake with vigor the task of renewal and reform. ... Catholics’ ... primary duty is to make a careful and honest appraisal of whatever needs to be renewed and done in the Catholic household itself. ... Christ summons the church, as it goes its pilgrim way, to that continual reformation of which it always has need (Vatican II, “Decree on Ecumenism”).

Step 2: Discuss and deliberate among all members of the parish
Although there obviously must be a smaller cadre of parishioners (pastor and laity) who take the lead, the whole of the parish must be seriously engaged in coming together to discuss, deliberate and ultimately decide what exactly a parish constitution is and what their own constitution should contain. (Guidance on how to go about this task, and an example of a parish constitution already in place, can be found at www.arcc-catholic-rig hts.net/resources.htm.) This must be the decision of fundamentally the whole parish community, for all will have to live by that decision.

Step 3: The word constitution
Some may shy away from the term constitution, thinking perhaps it is too profane, too secular. It need only be remembered that the highest authority in the structure of the Catholic church -- the pope and all the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council -- used precisely that term for its most important documents: “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy,” “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church,” “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation,” “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World,” and that Pope Paul VI called for and set up a commission to develop a constitution for the church (Lex Fundamentalis Ecclesiae).

Step 4: What should and should not be in a constitution
It is important to bear in mind that a constitution is to outline the vital, the formative elements of the governance of a community, in this case, the parish. It needs to avoid details beyond the essential, and concentrate on the critical structures of governance. Only a brief prologue should refer to the underlying spirit of the constitution, being careful not to be too specific theologically, for every theology, no matter how brilliant, sensitive, and Gospel-centered, is only one way to articulate what it means to be a follower of Jesus. It must include a clear statement of the rights and responsibilities of all parties of the parish, including such principles as transparency, accountability, representation, due process of law, decision-making procedures, terms of office, and separation and balance of powers.
Above all, it is absolutely essential that the constitution be written. There is nothing like having to choose the words to write down -- especially words that you are going to have to live by -- to help clarify thinking. Further, when future disagreements arise, as they inevitably will, it is vital to have written documents to refer to. This will especially be the case when a new pastor arrives. Many Catholics have had wonderful parishes in the past so long as “Father Goodpastor” was the pastor, only to see it dismantled when he was replaced by “Monsignor O’Hooligan.” A written constitution may not be a sufficient cause of a continued Vatican II democratic parish, but it is a necessary cause of one.

Step 5: Liturgical installation
Once the long process of dialogue, deliberation and decision making results in a constitution, a further step is important. One of the strengths of Catholicism is the tradition of giving everything important and even things not so important a liturgy. A constitution that a parish is going to live by is an important sacred reality. It is a sacramental, and hence deserves a solemn liturgical ceremony.
The constitution ought to be printed and framed in a fittingly solemn manner. A liturgy with an appropriate set of prayers, music and gestures needs to be designed by the parish liturgy committee for the formal installation of the constitution. It is important that the pastor, the parish council, other officers of the parish, and as much of the entire parish as possible be present at the installation liturgy. For the initial installation of the constitution, it would be well to invite the bishop to be present as an observer. The pastor, parish council and other officers, as well as the rest of the parish members present, ought to make a solemn public pledge to follow the constitution.
An appropriate day should be chosen for the annual liturgical recommitment of all to follow the constitution -- perhaps the feast day of the parish’s name. Such a solemn liturgical installation, and its annual reconfirmation, will keep it present in all the parishioners’ consciousness, and go a long way toward ensuring the constitution’s continuing viability.


tep 6: Live by the constitution
It goes without saying that the parish must then live by its constitution. Much will be learned in living with the constitution, including the possibility that amendments will be found to be important, perhaps even essential. The discipline of so living will also gradually reshape and mature the thinking and action of all involved, clergy and laity, including future generations. If a parish has lived and grown with a constitution for five or 10 years or more, it will be difficult for a future “Monsignor O’Hooligan” to come in (or even to want to!) and dismantle it.

Step 7: Nonprofit ownership
In Spokane, Wash., the bankruptcy court has declared the parishes to be the property of the bishop, and therefore subject to the millions of dollars in claims levied against the bishop. While a settlement of sorts has been reached, the future of parishes has been placed with the court. The ownership structure of the American Catholic church may well be dramatically different in the future as a result of these judicial proceedings and claims against the church elsewhere.
Regardless of the outcome of current litigation around the country, it is vital that American Catholics learn both from our past history of parish ownership, also called, the trustee system. Patrick Carey, in People, Priests, and Prelates: Ecclesiastical Democracy and the Tensions of Trusteeism, wrote: “The trustee system was a legitimate outgrowth of prior European Catholic customs. ... Thus, the new circumstances forced them not so much to create a new sense of lay participation as to nourish and democratize traditions of lay involvement that were already rooted in their European Catholic experiences.” American Catholics can also learn a valuable lesson from the worldwide explosion of nongovernmental organizations.

Clearly, the ownership of properties and other assets is a major source of power. The adage “Follow the money” applies to the Catholic church as much as to other institutions. Ideal parish ownership would be as it was at the start of U.S. history: ownership by the parish as a corporation.
That, however, would at present be difficult to bring about, for the bishop would simply forbid it. However, it would not be difficult for a parish to set up a nonprofit organization -- a 501(c)(3) -- especially for any new donations/expenditures. The nonprofit parish organization could be set up to sponsor social justice work, youth work, construct buildings, schools, buy a parish hall, send out relief workers, missionaries, students, pay salaries. All the assets of whatever form purchased through this nonprofit organization would belong to the nonprofit parish organization and be disposed of according to its founding document, which should be based on the parish constitution.
Who could object to the people of a parish forming a 501(c)(3) in order to undertake some new good work? Further, no permission is necessary. It would be vital, however, not to include the pastor in the nonprofit, so that he may not be threatened by the bishop. In addition, if parishioners have a secure say in the disposal of their goods, they, of course, will be much more inclined to donate to this 501(c)(3). More important, as the financial value of the nonprofit parish organization grows, it will automatically support the responsible functioning of the parish constitution. It will also begin to build a “field of force,” almost like a magnetic field, of decision-making power, thereby strengthening the democratic governance of the parish. For that reason, it is important that as much of the whole parish as possible be involved in the 501(c)(3) in a democratic manner, and be closely related to the parish constitution.

Step 8: Constitutional parish networking
A constitutional parish -- with a matching 501(c)(3) -- will necessarily be a flourishing parish for it will automatically draw on all the talents of all members. Just how much it flourishes will depend on a combination of the talents of the parishioners (including preeminently those of the pastor and lay leaders), the care with which the constitution has been planned and structured, and the wisdom with which the parish has grown in living it. Consequently, the constitutional parish will become a magnet for other parishes. However, the constitutional parish must, for its own survival, also become an evangelizing constitutional parish in the literal sense, that is, it needs to spread the “good news” of creating and living by a parish constitution with a parallel 501(c)(3) so that other parishes will go down the same path.
If a number of constitutional parishes develop in a diocese, it is critical that they learn from, and support, each other. They will need to form a network of constitutional parishes. As their numbers grow, the likelihood of any of them receiving a “Monsignor O’Hooligan” as pastor will proportionately shrink.

Step 9: Negotiate with bishop/personnel committee ahead of time
However, without waiting for a network of constitutional parishes to develop, the parish council (which includes the pastor) should in good time arrange to meet with the bishop and diocesan personnel committee to negotiate with them ahead of time a serious role for themselves in the choice of the successor of their pastor. They must insist on the retention of their governing constitution. Clearly they will want to do all this only after they have lived by their constitution for some time and built a solid reputation in the diocese. The substantial character of the nonprofit parish organization will obviously also have a significant influence here -- money talks.

Step 10: Publicize We know from civil society that freedom of the press is critical to make democracy work. We Catholics also learned that lesson at Vatican Council II when freedom of the press was one of the main engines pulling the church out of its medieval and Counter Reformation mentality into modernity. Without it, Vatican II would have been as much of a disaster as Lateran Council V (1512-17), which ushered in the Protestant Reformation.
Conclusion

As in society in general, a governance structure will be what the governed allow. If most Catholics in an area believe that a shared responsibility governance structure, a democratic church, is not possible, it will not happen, regardless of what ecumenical councils or popes have said supporting such. The first, and perhaps most challenging, task is to convince large numbers of the Catholic community, in this case, the parish, that a democratic constitution for the parish is in keeping with the Gospel and Catholic tradition. Then the rest of the nine steps are obvious, though by no means easy.

The critical issue is whether or not a constitutional parish can survive beyond its “founding pastor.” As I noted at the beginning, canon law and the reality on the ground stack the chances against it. That is why Step 5 through Step 10 are vital. They are not individual guarantees against the eventual destruction of a constitutional parish, but as they are carried out, they will proportionally improve the chances of survival.
Beyond a constitution for the parish, there is also the need for a diocesan constitution, and eventually a universal Catholic constitution, as Pope Paul VI called for and worked for. This journey to a diocesan and especially a universal constitution of the Catholic church will doubtless be long, arduous, and probably also serpentine. But it is a journey that a growing number of Catholics feel must be undertaken. Those of us so convinced now have not only the privilege but also the responsibility to push on in the journey, even though we personally may not arrive at the destination. What is obtainable in the near future, however, at least for some fortunate ones of us living in parishes with a “Father Goodpastor,” are first, a parish constitution and equally important, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.

Theologian Leonard Swidler, professor of Catholic Thought and Interreligious Dialogue at Temple University, is author of Toward a Catholic Constitution (Crossroad Books), and a founder of the Association for the Rights of Catholics in the Church.

National Catholic Reporter, March 17, 2006

[TexasProgresive]

160. Gold plated and usually a gift to the priest upon ordination

by his family.

[defendandprotect]

163. Your example seems to suggest that what I've read is correct . . .

We certainly don't see any $$$$$$ from the closing of the churches going back to the

community, do we?

Poor people and middle class people sacrificed to build those churches and the church

schools -- infuriating to think about it!! Even poor people felt compelled to give!!

Nice story about the Open Table of Christ Church -- hadn't heard of them!

Great example --

Maybe the Pope will auction off some of his used satin pumps!!!???

[TexasProgresive]

159. The vatican does not own local parishes

That property is owned by the diocese just like the Episcopal Church.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our fourth quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[NotNarrow]

35. God is dead

Thank God. :)

[baldguy]

37. How many people has he banned for their support of the death penalty?

Or who support divorce? Or contraception?

[defendandprotect]

40. Think the Question is whether the Vatican is going to run American government . . .

or Americans are going to run it?

[BlueMTexpat]

42. Two words for Bishop Tobin ...

butt out!

[vanboggie]

43. This is why I'm no longer Catholic

The older I became, the more I realized how much hypocrisy there is in the Catholic Church.

Bravo for Patrick Kennedy's stand - separation of Church and State!

[704wipes]

44. really, when will the Kennedys realize they are Protestants?

nt

[williesgirl]

47. REMOVE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS - this is bullshit - stay out of our politics! Fuck the Catholic

Church. And I'm a born and raised Catholic.

[GardeningGal]

54. I agree.

Anybody know how to turn them in to the IRS?

[TheCowsCameHome]

105. See post #9

Agreed.

[Divine Discontent]

53. that judgmental man who denied Kennedy is doing what he feels is right, so Kennedy ought to do

what he hopefully thinks is right - which is find another flavor of Christianity that isn't so narrow-minded.

[kevinbgoode]

58. It's funny how those bishops never deny themselves the sacrament

despite their amazing willingness to engage in criminal behavior and coverups of their own widespread sexual abuse scandal.

[jmpnfool]

60. And I care about this why?

[AspenRose]

81. And yet you cared enough to post here

[No Elephants]

126. Are you a Democrat? Do you want Democrats elected?

If you don't get the implications of this, maybe you want to meditate on it for a few minutes.

[saracat]

127. You don't , if you don't support seperation of church and state!

But most of us on this board do. And this is a real reason to yank the tax exemption on churches.We can't afford to let religious meddlers politic for free anymore. And we need the money .

[maxomai2]

61. Why not switch to the Anglicans?

The Roman Catholics seem to think it's okay for Anglicans (Episcopalians) to become Catholic; why not the other way around?

Culturally it might offend a lot of Irish-Americans, but I think it would help send a signal to the RCC that they can't bully their congregation on abortion anymore.

[No Elephants]

128. Welcome to DU. Without taking away from your welcome, your post

happens to be at least the third in which some poster here thinks he or she has the right to decide what Kennedy's religious beliefs or lack thereof should be. That seems to me to misperceive the nature of the religious call. And it just may also be a bit of hubris.

[Odin2005]

62. Send the taxman after the chid-raping bastards.

[No Elephants]

129. I wish. But it ain't ever gonna happen.

[dana_b]

65. another ex-Catholic here

(seems there a lot of us here) and I wonder if Tobin asks all of the constituents their position on abortion?? I know that he's trying to make an example of Kennedy however I seriously doubt that his fear and intimidation tactics are going to work. Probably just make more people like some of us in this thread.

[Generic Other]

66. A very disturbing reminder of the need for separation of church and state

Neither Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Jew should be using government to promote their religious beliefs. It is a fundamental and often under appreciated 1st amendment right that everyone of us should protect with our lives. The religious warfare of other nations throughout history should tell us something about the wisdom of our enlightened forefathers who were wise enough to put god outside the door of the statehouse inside the church where he belonged.

Today, we are seeing the churches exerting unbelievable and corrupt influence on our government. Not just Catholics--Mormons are you listening--religious sects of every sort are attempting to frame public policy based on their own religious proscriptions. Add to this an enormous and ignorant Bible belt Protestantism that has left the majority of congregations in America in the hands conmen and thieves rather than sons of the enlightenment and you get superstitious ignorant worshippers ready to kowtow to any edict however irrational it may be. Religion has become so institutionalized and twisted that it has no meaning other than the dangerous political pull it exerts. And I am not going to leave the Jews out of this general rant I am giving. I don't think it is antisemitic in the least in the context of this discussion to bring up the problem of religious beliefs influencing one's sentiments about foreign politics. It is not a sin to feel empathy for/or connections to Jerusalem, the Vatican, Bethlehem, Mecca, Katmandu, wherever. But it is unAmerican to allow one's religious sentiments to influence his or her civic decisions which must take into account the common good before one's own personal and religious convictions.

That's what our enlightened forefathers told us, Father Tobin. What you are telling us is that our revolution won us nothing but the foot of Rome on our necks. I say you're wrong. I stand with the gentleman from the free state of Rhode Island--a state founded on the principles of religious tolerance. I stand with the Congressman who was elected to serve all the people of his district--not his church.

[No Elephants]

134. The bishop is asking Kennedy to do more than use government to promote Catholicisim. He is asking

(spiritually blackmailing) Kennedy to use government to FORCE all Americans to live like "good Catholics" upon the penalties of law.

BTW, I wish Patrick Kennedy could read your wonderful post.

[Baltimore]

177. wonderful post

I, too, wish Patrick Kennedy could read "your wonderful post." I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read it!

[McCamy Taylor]

67. Wow. The Catholic Church vs. the Kennedy Family.

My grandmother had a picture of JFK up on the wall next to her picture of the Virgin Mary. This is one crazy ass Catholic Bishop.

Pass the popcorn.

[dominic savio]

71. Catholic Church v. Kennedy Family

It will be interesting to see how the other bishops and the vatican respond to this bishop going rogue.

[CatholicEdHead]

83. Actually Rome has his back on this

Archbishop Burke started this way to climb the ladder to Rome by denying communion.

[No Elephants]

244. I was social worker for a time. On home visits, I saw JFK beside Jesus very often.

And Jesus with the Sacred Heart image, so I assumed these were Catholic homes.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

73. My father is far more liberal than I am......

....and attends church every week. I've told him it's time to leave them. They've turned their back on too many people, and the scandal that has infected them reeks to high heaven.

[JerseygirlCT]

74. 24601

You took the words out of my mouth. C'mon over, Pat. You're always welcome at God's table in our church.

[stray cat]

77. A judge prevented a biracial couple from marrying - all judges don't

People love to take a single example and apply it to the majority - if its a minority we do that to we call it bigotry! If it is to someone we don't support we gladly participate in the bigotry

[ooglymoogly]

78. Tell the Catholic Bishops to go fuck themselves

Oh wait they prefer defenseless little boys.

The biggest scam in world history, of selling themselves as the gatekeepers of heaven, should be a hanging offense. They are evil incarnate and have caused more damage to the sanity and wellbeing of mankind than we can ever begin to imagine.

[debunkthelies]

85. Supporting a woman's right to choose is

not the same as saying they should have an abortion.
When did it become a sin to let others decide their own fate, choices, and relationship with God?
Does the Vatican now decide what is politically correct?:mad:

I thought that was AIPAC'S job. LOL:crazy:

[radhika]

86. Puleeze - No TAX EMPTIONS FOR RELIGIONS! n/t

[paulsby]

87. and you can wear little rubber thingies

on your john thomases!

[JohnnyLib2]

94. This makes me sad in a way.

Private faith issue all over the news.....yuck.

Separation of church and state is such a useful concept. It sure has been neglected in this situation.

[No Elephants]

96. Did Patrick Kennedy have an abortion? The bishop's problem is not that

Kennedy is a bad Catholic. It's that Kennedy refuses to make all of America obey the Pope.

[saracat]

98. So basically he has "excommunicated" him in only one diocese?

As a "cafeteria" Catholic, or lapsed Catholic, whichever the church prefers, this infuriates me. Let the freaken Diocese of RI give up their tax exemption if the Bishop wants to play politics.And someone needs to sent the bishop JFK on the separation church and state!:grr:

[shimmergal]

122. Correct!

The bishop's authority doesn't extend beyond his diocese.

[tonysam]

100. I have a feeling it isn't Patrick Kennedy who really needs to be in rehab. n/t

[pscot]

106. Patrick has lots of company

some of it very exalted. Napoleon was excommunicated. So were all Catholic freemasons and all Catholic communists. Catholic nazis, strangely, were ignored. Various kings and Holy Roman emperors have been excommunicated, not to mention "heretics" by the scores of thousands. In fact, pretty much anybody who manages to piss off a bishop. In one sense, Patrick is lucky. In times past he might have had to answer to the inquiaition.

[olegramps]

107. The Catholic Church didn't excommunicate Nazis...Well bless their little heart.

The fact is that the Catholic Church provided thousands of Nazis, including SS officers, with documentation so that they could escape to South America. I suppose this was in thanks for the Gestapo's rounding up and sending those pesky Jews for the "final solution." I wonder how much of the gold they pried out of the dead jews teeth was charged for those forged documents.

[McCamy Taylor]

157. Excellent point about the Vatican's collaberation with Nazis. Dont forget the Inquisition

and the Crusades. Makes you wonder if "infallible" has some definition that we do not know about.

[saigon68]

266. Ask Rat Faced little Rat Man

Part of the Hitler youth.

[Guilded Lilly]

112. Dear Patrick,

you don't need any power lusting middle men.

God can see and hear and be with you every second of your life without all their added baggage, interfering authoritarian obsessions and hateful agenda.

Peace be with you :)

[laylah]

116. One of the many

reasons, the hypocrisies, I left the Church. What a bunch of bunk!

[PJPhreak]

121. I find that the lack of...

The separation of Church and State to be a very disturbing trend in my lifetime.

As a kid growing up in Long Island as an Episcopalian it seemed that back in the day our politicians left their religion at the door so to speak when they went to work.

Starting somewhere in the eighties this started to change,and now it seems that way too many politicians are taking their religion to work and are trying to make and pass legislation based on their personal beliefs. I find this Very disturbing.

I find this true of the the church as well,they are trying to influence politicians and politics to shape legislation to fit their beliefs as well I also find this to be very disturbing as well

I am not a practicing Episcopalian,I haven't stepped into a church in 40 years. I have issues with huge,wealthy organizations that wield that much power over people.I do tho believe in a higher power.

[elleng]

125. Published November 22!?

Isn't that nice. SOME of us will NEVER forget this date.

[JohnnyLib2]

131. Indeed.

;(

[tonysam]

136. I thought that, too. That's probably why the story was printed/posted today. n/t

[Joey Liberal]

138. Glad I'm no longer a Catholic. nt

[rurallib]

140. "Kennedy introduces bill to end tax exemptions for Churches"

headline I would love to see

[BrklynLiberal]

153. From your keyboard to..... If only.

[greengestalt]

141. Fight back

If the church is going to be an agent of political change, violating "separation of church and state", they need to pay taxes like everyone else.


And, with the recession and scandal, Tithes and attendance in general are down. Too much money (and credibility) is going to pay for the legal consequences of Priests F*cking little boyz... Maybe that's why they don't want Abortion (and birth control and sex education...etc.) a whole flood of unwanted, abandoned little boys on the street and in boy's homes to molest? A relative of mine has a friend who is native to India. They have lots of "Missionaries" over there and (not just Catholic) they assume that for the most part, except for the very young ones, they are ALL sent there "To molest heathen sub-human Darkies because when you touch white flesh it costs us too much Brother Perverso!" They are polite to them, but no one, not even the lowest "Untouchable" lets their kids be alone with any of them.


I'm not "Disrespectin'" the Catholic Church saying it tolerates all pervy priests. They have been "Cracking down" on those that stray. Just last year they de-frocked and excommunicated a priest and he'll have to go through a strict regimen of penance if he wants back in, to the church alone. What'd he do? He had an affair, with an... adult... woman... That isn't just an isolated incident, another one a priest tried to rape an adult woman who came into his church late at night, same immediate "De-Frocked and Excommunicated" thing...


Really, how much DOES that org rake in? If they are going to try to influence American politics, by telling people who to vote for or else, they have violated the "Separation" thing that protects them. They must pay tax revenue off their earnings like everyone else.

[Baltimore]

183. Priest having affair with an adult woman

If You're talking about Father Cutie of Miami, he has left the Catholic Church, married his girlfriend, and become an Episcopalian priest. The Catholic Church really shot themselves in the foot with this one. He was the most popular priest in Miami.

[greengestalt]

190. Also in Europe

Another thing where he hides it for years, then gets out when it's discovered. And, really, for F*cking little Boyz they just get 'therapy' and moved around, but for an adult woman it's instant de-frocking and excommunication and a ton of hoops/penance to get back in, maybe...


The other one was in NYC, I think. Priest assaulted and tried to rape a lady, adult woman again. And the same thing happened to him before even the conviction...


There's a joke I'd like to make, although carefully---

An ad for a "Sex Tour" boat that besides taking tourists of the "Sexpatriate" bent around, there are all sorts of full staffed services on board also... (like a cutout/guide such as in National Lampoon during the 70's, early 80s) And as a footnote, it would point out: "Worried due to all the drinking, drugs and wild sex you'll have a heart attack and die? Well, of all the ways to go... However, since we have a "Children's Section" to cater to pedophiles, our ship almost always has several ordained Catholic Priests on board who will pause from their pleasure and (eagerly!) hear your last confession and say last rites for you!"

[Cha]

144. Catholic Churches have fallen way down

in attendance since their hey day..it's so easy to see why.

[mackerel]

146. I wonder if they ban Catholic politicians who support

the death penalty?

[Cha]

147. No, I think they're Hypocrties.

[K8-EEE]

149. I wish people would stop the "my faith" rationalizations re: the Church

My aunt is like: "Well, I'm not going to lose my faith over this and that" and I'm like, LOSE IT! I did -- much better without that nonsense.

If they can stop all the covering up for child rapists wealth hoarding homophobic dictator propping GOP supporting shit then go back to them.

But it ain't gonna happen.

[IndianaGreen]

150. Kennedy should join the Episcopal Church

It has all the rituals of the Catholic Church, without the baggage.

[BrklynLiberal]

151. TIme to TAX THE CHURCHES!!! If they want to be political, then let them contribute!!!

[excess_3]

154. if you don' like a club's rules, don't join. .nt

[rhett o rick]

197. If all those that didnt believe and follow the "club's" rules quit, there wouldnt be any Catholics

left. How many Catholics ignore the Pope on birth control?

[jberryhill]

200. And Don't Elect Catholics To Public Office!

If the "club's rules" include exerting pressure on the decisions that politicians make for non-Catholics, then it is too much of a risk for the non-Catholic majority of citizens to elect members of that club to office.

[No Elephants]

239. What rule of the Catholic Church did Patrick Kennedy break? He's never had an abortion.

[wellstone dem]

156. This breaks my heart

I am sure Patrick loves his church, and to be turned away from this important sacrament must be a very hard thing for him.

[McCamy Taylor]

158. Probably the best thing that ever happened to him. A lapsed Catholic is the only happy

Catholic. I speak as a member of a very large Catholic family. Being "banned" by the Church puts him in good company, too, alongside people like Galileo.

[SoCalDem]

174. So, find another religion/church, and work toward stripping ALL churches of tax-free status

:)

[lunasun]

176. DO those

pedophile priests the church keeps ' relocating ' still get communion ???

[alp227]

180. Yawnnnn...just another silly dispute manufactured by religion

The news agencies wouldn't have had to waste time, ink, server space, whatever with this silly story if religion didn't exist. John Lennon should be the bishop instead!

Heck, the one atheist reprentative right now? Pete Stark, Democrat of California's 13th! It's unknown if Scott Murphy, of New York's 20th, is religious. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_members_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives

[dflprincess]

182. This is the same church that recently welcome Newt Gringrich as a convert

Sure he's an adulterer and twice divorced, but that was before he was Catholic so he gets a "get out of hell free" card.

(His current wife, the one he cheated on his 2nd wife with is Catholic - I'm not sure what kind of pass she gets.)

[LiberalFighter]

195. Which Catholic Church wants to receive his tithing?

[wial]

199. there are plenty of good progressive Catholics

and there's also a good old Irish tradition called the Boycott. The Vatican lives off the money it siphons out of America by keeping American Catholics cowed and conservative, unlike many of their brethren around the world. There's leverage there. There's nothing remotely inherent about most of the Church's policies, which can be traced back to edicts of one corrupt pope or another. However, the Church does bear a huge responsibility for the welfare of the world, and it would be in the best principles for which it stands to live up to that. Perhaps American progressive Catholics have an important historical role to play here, and perhaps Kennedy can help lead in that.

[Hubert Flottz]

203. Roman Catholic church...

Isn't that the same church that helped all those NAZI war criminals that gassed and murdered millions of people, get away after the war and get into South America? Guys like Joe Mengela who did all those medical experiments on little kids? The same church that tortured people and had folks burnt at the stake?

If I was Mr. Kennedy I'd be glad to get away from an outfit like that.

[Stinky The Clown]

206. What was this good bishop's public stance when priests were molesting kids?

[AngryOldDem]

224. Funny you should ask.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_statements/2009_statements/112309_admitted_ri_predator_priest_works_in_ma_around_kids_snap_responds.htm

He's just about the same as any other bishop. Doesn't give a damn.

[AngryOldDem]

220. More political grandstanding on the part of the Church.

Totally fucking sick of it.

Apparently, the only thing that matters to the Holy Mother Church anymore is abortion.

[KansDem]

222. And yet, these are the folks who have a say in our national health-care debate...

Unbelievable!

[beyond cynical]

227. Really...?

Yawn...

[martymar64]

233. All liberal catholics should stop tithing permanently

Starve the beast. If they want to keep operating, then they'll have to start selling off their golden calves err, idols.

[Steerpike]

240. AAh Geez!

Just start taxing the church and treating them like any political organization!

[CRH]

248. I some how think Patrick Kennedy, ...

is deep enough to overcome the religious dogma of a political positioned Bishop, who is probably less in touch with spirit than than politics, suppression and control.

[goforit]

257. Well well well.....It's time for the Catholic Church to start paying TAXES!!!!

[RedCloud]

258. Avenge that imposter oh mighty Hercules. Let the earth mortals know your wrath.

Stealing all Herc's titles of adoration and then picking on a Kennedy.

[meow2u3]

260. I'd ask Bishop Tobin if he denied Communion to divorced and remarried Catholics

If so, at least he'd be consistent. If not, then I'd call him out as a hypocrite.

[KakistocracyHater]

269. So........what infernal powers do you get from using birth control?

What reason do they give for condemning use of condoms, diaphragms, bc pills?........