Semenya to keep gold; gender tests to remain private

[Dulcinea]

Source: ESPN

JOHANNESBURG -- South African runner Caster Semenya will keep her 800-meter gold medal from the world championships, and the results of her gender tests will be kept confidential, the South African sports ministry said Thursday.

Caster Semenya of South Africa will get to keep her world championships gold medal and prize money, and her gender tests will remain sealed.
The ministry also said in a statement that the International Association of Athletics Federations has agreed to allow the 18-year-old Semenya to keep her prize money.

"Whatever scientific tests were conducted legally within the IAAF regulations will be treated as a confidential matter between patient and doctor," the sports ministry said. "As such there will be no public announcement of what the panel of scientists has found. We urge all South Africans and other people to respect this professional ethical and moral way of doing things."

On Wednesday, the IAAF said the gender tests performed on Semenya had not yet been completed. The body had been expected to announce its findings Friday.


Read more: http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandfield/news/story?id=4669920

---

This poor girl (and I will call her a girl until I hear otherwise.)

[hlthe2b]

1. I feel very sorry for her as well..

But this seems to have muddied all policy for the future--will they allow her to compete in future contests? What, now is the policy for other athletes? The whole way in which this has been handled has been abysmal. I wish this woman well.

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Doesn't the world already know "she" is a man with internal testes?

The test results were public shortly after they were done - months ago.

It is unfair to the other competitors in the sport to have to compete against a man, descended testes or not.

[LeftHander]

3. Brilliant deduction....

If you had vestigal ovaries in you then you are not a man. Despite the obvious DICK...

[WriteDown]

4. If you're producing testosterone at an abnormally high rate for a woman

due to said testes then there is a competitive issue.

[WriteDown]

6. Delete, wrong spot

[thereismore]

7. Define abnormally. The hormone levels are on a continuum, you know. nt

[WriteDown]

9. Outside the accepted range for a woman? nt

[thereismore]

25. You need a number. "accepted range" does not work. nt

[WriteDown]

27. 15 to 70 ng./dl. nt

[thereismore]

60. Good. Now you just need to tell all women outside this range that they can't compete. Or,

use handicaps as in horse racing. That'll work.

[WriteDown]

65. I'm fairly certain if they're outside the range than steroid tests

are usually the next logical step.

[Lance_Boyle]

22. Caster Semenya's testes are not vestigial - they are undescended

They produce testosterone like any other male's testes, giving Semenya an unfair advantage in competition against women.

Asshole.

[theHandpuppet]

31. Yes, those are the facts, folks.

Unfortunate as that may be for Caster, her high leveles of testosterone mean that her body also has a different bone density, fat distribution and muscle mass that makes it virtually impossible for women to compete against her. The only way to even begin to level the playing field in this instance would be to allow the other women competitors to use male hormone supplements and steroids. Whether or not she identifies as a female doesn't negate her biology. I remember when I first saw her photograph my immediate thought was that she was not, biologically speaking, female. So the results of her tests did not come as a surprise to me.

This really is a tragic situation but you can't be unfair to all women athletes to accomodate Caster's plight.

[thereismore]

5. Just suck it up. She keeps the gold. nt

[SoCalDem]

57. Undescended testes, that are not corrected surgically can become cancerous

or so we were told when our son had to have surgery for one being undescended.. The doctor was head of pediatric urology at Mayo Clinic, so we trusted his diagnosis..

I wonder why the sports world just does not test for testosterone, and have people compete based on that level..male or female

[WriteDown]

8. So basically they're admitting he's a man.

This brings up a lot of issues. He should be able to keep his previous medals if he did not know this, but probably should be prohibited from future events.

[soleiri]

10. she.

She grew up as a female, her family and community relate to her as a female and she's never identified her gender as male. Why are you calling her a he?

[WriteDown]

11. Biologically he is a male....

Unless he also has functioning ovaries.

[soleiri]

12. From what I understand

She looks female on the outside.
Meaning she has both female and male genitalia.
So is it the testes that make her a man?
do testes trump vagina? I'm confused.
She identifies as a female, that's what makes her female.
It's just basic respect for others, it's not difficult.

[WriteDown]

13. Her functioning sexual organs are male...

If her female organs are also functioning than that is another issue.

[Threedifferentones]

59. Functioning?

They produce semen? You're sure she has a functioning prostate too? Testosterone obviously gives her an overwhelming advantage against other women, her sex organs are obviously not fully "functioning," and since SHE is biologically neither male nor female you should HER as SHE wishes.

I really don't feel too bad for the women who have finished second to her, I'd rather have normal sex organs than win a gold, personally.

[deadmessengers]

14. says who?

She looks female on the outside.

Wasn't that she DIDN'T look female on the outside the issue that started all of this uproar in the first place?

[Posteritatis]

17. It's hard to remember; the goalposts were moving all over the place on this one. (nt)

[soleiri]

28. By outside I meant

no penis.

otherwise, they wouldn't have had to do testing.

[galledgoblin]

19. so, post-menopausal women and women who cannot conceive are not female?

[WriteDown]

21. Explain?

Even if ovaries are removed a woman will still be XX. Gene therapy may one day change that, but currently genetic testing can be used to identify gender.

[galledgoblin]

23. first, that's not the arguement you made.

second, not everyone is XX or XY.

third, I can't believe I'm having this discussion on DU of all places.

[WriteDown]

24. My initial post was based on if someone had functioning

sexual organs. Either or. If there is neither then we have to go to the genetics. Certain chromosomal combinations are either considered mailed r female. -

[sudopod]

33. God almighty, it must be nice to live in a world with no shades of gray.

[WriteDown]

35. Genetics doesn't offer much in that area.

Mosoacism maybe.

[sudopod]

40. Science says you're wrong.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=gender+intersex&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2000&as_ylo=&as_vis=0

To simple-mindedly insist that the presence of a requisite number of sex chromosomes is the only determining factor in gender assignment is, at best, ridiculously outdated, and went out about the time they took homosexuality out of the DSM.

[WriteDown]

42. The links you cite make my point....

Their is biological gender and then "cultural" gender which is subject to shifts. Biological gender trumps cultural in sports though.

[sudopod]

45. No, they don't.

Gender is a spectrum, to which we assign people as "male" or "female" on the basis of cultural norms. There is no hard and fast system though, whether it's counting chromosomes or vaginas. Hell, the only paper in that list (which was kind of a subtle test to see if you were paying attention) that had much readable text mentions in its abstract that there can be a difference in hormonal and chromosomal gender. Which is it big guy? Are both of those trumped by the presence (or lack thereof) of external genitalia? Things aren't that goddamned easy, else there wouldn't have been a controversy, but you don't recognize that because it doesn't fit into your little patchwork of prejudices.

People who think like you are a big chunk of what's wrong with this country. You think every problem has a simple solution, but that just isn't true. That lie is what got people like Reagan and Bush elected, and almost put the levers of power in the hands of Sarah Palin.

Simple solutions for simple minds.

[WriteDown]

48. No, gender is a pair of chromosomes...

Sometimes a triplet or quadruplet in rare circumstances.

Question, a woman is murdered and DNA is found under her finger nails. It is male DNA. Do we start gathering female suspects?

[sudopod]

51. No, it isn't

No matter how many times you repeat yourself it won't make it true. That's the consensus of the medical and scientific communities, though what do they know, they're a bunch of "elitsts" after all, what with their fancy college edukashuns.

Read a fucking book, Mr. Savage.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sudopod]

54. You're repeating yourself enough

thank you very much.

Does anyone really think WriteDown is here for any reason other than to disrupt?

Alert on me if you like, I'm fucking sick of it.

[Scurrilous]

56. Why would anyone alert?

You are correct in your assessment. :thumbsup:

[harmonicon]

58. yeah, I'm with you

I'm through reading this shit from them. The trolling on other topics, often coupled with misspellings and child-like grammatical mistakes, by that poster can be funny, but the shit I've seen in this thread is just fucking mean, and purposefully obtuse. It may well be "ignore" time - if only we could have a mass "ignore" campaign.

[WriteDown]

67. If you say so...

I'm not much of one for grammatical mistakes or spelling errors, but if you'd like to point out some posts. Mind you, one hand doesn't work very well so typing is not the easiest activity for me.

[harmonicon]

70. "boo-hoo"

I'm done. Troll someone (and ideally, somewhere) else.

[WriteDown]

71. I'm not crying...

My wrist reconstruction was years ago, but it does not lend itself to flexibility. Still better than it was before the repair though. Cheers. :)

[BreweryYardRat]

63. I agree with you.

"Does anyone really think WriteDown is here for any reason other than to disrupt?"

But this is why we have the "ignore" function. I also got sick of his (its?) attitude and slammed the ignore button a while ago. If the mods think he's (it's?) enough of a nuisance, they'll tombstone him. Put him (it?) on ignore and deservedly forget all about the nasty little troll.

[WriteDown]

66. Still can't reconcile your own info you've provided..

Once again there is scientific gender and there is gender identity. Two very different concepts. Let me ask you a question. Should he/she be able to continue competing?

[soleiri]

29. wrong

but currently genetic testing can be used to identify gender.

what about Androgen insensitivity syndrome?
would you call women with AIS, men because although they look, feel and act female their chromosomes are XY?

Your ignorance on this subject is really mind blowing.

[WriteDown]

36. Yes...

They are technically still male.

[soleiri]

37. If you found out that your sister had AIS

or anyone else that you knew, would you then refer to her as a he?
to her face?

[WriteDown]

38. I would probably call him by his name.

We're talking about scientific gender here. If you want to be called something else, that is fine, but we're discussing scientific distinguishments.

[soleiri]

43. okay, you're kidding right?

"him by his name"

You'd introduce her as "This is my brother, Jennifer and his husband Kevin."

wow, you really are hopeless.

And no, we are not talking "scientifically", we are talking about a person.
Scientifically, in a clinical sense we'd talk about her as a person as a her and her condition as being one of intersexuality.

In other words, if a person with AIS talked to their geneticist they wouldn't be referred to as the gender that they didn't identify with, they'd be referred to as a woman who has AIS.

[WriteDown]

44. I couldn't just say...

This is Jen? You do know there is such a thing as scientific gender right?

[sudopod]

46. Because there isn't. :/ nt

[WriteDown]

47. There isn't?

So you're fine with Lebron James playing in the WNBA? Should be a dominant year.

[soleiri]

50. please

suddenly turning this debate from you calling this girl a he into a discussion about scientific gender is transparent.
The issue is gender identity.
Don't transfer your ignorance onto me.

[WriteDown]

53. If that were the issue....

than his/her eligibility to compete would not be an issue.

[theHandpuppet]

32. She has no womb nor ovaries

But since she has testes (though undescended) her testosterone levels were measured at three times those found to be within the normal range for women.

[theHandpuppet]

55. Look, if you want to talk about gender identity and competitive sports...

... fine and dandy. This is a really tough issue but I agree that Casper should not be competing in what are traditionally women's events.

HOWEVER, if you're insisting on calling Casper "he" when she is female identified, then you're doing so just to be a jerk. You're coming off as maddeningly obtuse or deliberately offensive.

[WriteDown]

69. Honestly, it was neither...

I was just referring to her/his scientific gender. Obviously, in public a person can choose whichever pronoun they like. Although it can sometimes lead to confusion.

[galledgoblin]

20. THIS. SO #$@&ING MUCH, THIS.

[sudopod]

16. Is there no end to your fail? nt

[WriteDown]

18. Ouch...

Hard to argue with your solid logic and expansive points.

[soleiri]

39. Before accusing others of not using logic

try using it your self. It's not logical to genetically test every single person to determine their gender, gender is determined by first, society and then later the individual. That's true for everyone.
So why should Caster's gender identity be determined by the test over how she identifies herself?

you can also try being human.

[WriteDown]

41. You have it the opposite way around....

Genetics like mathematics is the ultimate truth. Let's say Phil Mickelson decided he wanted to be identified as a woman, should he then be able to compete in the LPGA?

[soleiri]

49. Is anyone arguing that she should be allowed to compete?

And if Phil Mickelson decided that he's a woman than hell yes, I'd call her a she.

[WriteDown]

64. That is an excellent question...

From the article

""However, the question of whether she remains eligible to compete as a woman remained uncertain."

[Name removed]

26. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheDebbieDee]

15. Keep the tests private....after everyone knows the results?

The IAAF lives in a dreamworld......

[DU GrovelBot]

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[pansypoo53219]

34. there are so many sexual fuckups naturally.

XXY, XXYY. then you have the XXX. IF she has a XX and a Y. she is still female.

[dysfunctional press]

61. will she be able to compete in the olympics in 2012...?

"However, the question of whether she remains eligible to compete as a woman remained uncertain."

if she's allowed to continue competing as a woman- she's going to get a lot of wins.

[kestrel91316]

62. Sad that the world's obsession with entertainment (and yes, sports are entertainment)

has made this into such a big deal. The amount of time, money, and energy that is going into this dispute boggles the mind. We are facing collapse of entire ecosystems and economies, and personal tragedies on an apocalyptic scale, and people fuss over the genital abnormalities of one person in a Third World country.

Sigh.

[WriteDown]

68. That is actually an excellent point....

There are a lot of big topics on the world stage these days.