90-year-old charged in Germany for Nazi-era crimes

[Behind the Aegis]

Source: Associated Press

BERLIN (AP) -- Former SS sergeant Adolf Storms lived in Germany unnoticed for more than six decades after World War II until an Austrian university student last year came across his name while researching a 1945 massacre of Jewish forced laborers.

The student gave the information to state prosecutors near Storms' hometown of Duisburg, and they have now filed charges against the 90-year-old on 58 counts of murder for the killings near the Austrian village of Deutsch Schuetzen, a German court said.

"On March 29, 1945, the accused and his accomplices brought at least 57 Jewish forced laborers in several groups to a nearby forest area, where they had to give up their valuables and kneel by a grave," the court said in a statement. "The accused and other SS members then cruelly shot the Jewish forced-laborers from behind."

The day following the massacre, Storms is accused of personally shooting another Jew who could no longer walk during a forced march in Austria from Deutsch Schuetzen to the village of Hartberg, the court said.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_GERMANY_NAZI_INVESTIGATION?SITE=SCCHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

---

Compainion piece:

A look at recent prosecutions of suspected Nazi war criminals in Germany.

- November 2009: Prosecutors file charges against former SS Sgt. Adolf Storms on 58 counts of murder in connection with a massacre of Jewish forced laborers in Austria in 1945.

- October 2009: Heinrich Boere, 87, goes on trial in Aachen charged with the World War II murders of three men in the Netherlands when he was a member of a Waffen SS death squad.

- August 2009: Josef Scheungraber, a 90-year-old former officer in the Nazi army, is convicted of murder for ordering the massacre of 10 civilians in a 1944 reprisal killing in Italy; sentenced to life. Scheungraber has said he plans to appeal.

- July 2009: John Demjanjuk, an 89-year-old retired auto worker deported from the U.S., is charged as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at the Sobibor death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland, where he is accused of serving as a guard. His trial starts in Munich on Nov. 30.

more...

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JonQ]

2. Did you just compare our troops

to the SS?

[reggie the dog]

9. How were the SS any different from Jackson's army

and the trail of tears in the USA?

[JonQ]

12. I agree, no difference

no go arrest all the US soldiers who took part in the trail of tears!

[reggie the dog]

14. I would never arrest the average soldier

General Jackson gave the orders. HE is accountalbe. His soldiers did as they were told because the army could just execute you on the spot for not following orders in a battle.

[JonQ]

15. Ok, go arrest general jackson

And the "I was just following orders" defense hasn't always worked so well.

[reggie the dog]

52. it should

my father is gulity of shit in Vietnam that he was made to do, ORDERED TO DO and STILL has nighmares about.

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. Certainly, a nightmare situation for just about any young person, when no-one knows

who the enemy might be, when they raided house in Iraq, for example; who could shoot their comrades any second.

I said I'd turn round and shoot the NCO who gave me the order to kill a whole family. But I don't think it's helpful to make such assertions, however righteous in absolute terms (assuming I would have). In real terms, they were in the middle of a nightmare of their superiors' making, and the normal ability to make calm moral judgements would have been enormously prejudiced by stresses from all sides, not least the knowledge that your own compassion could condemn a comrade to death.

[PassingFair]

137. Hugh Thompson.

It is possible to be moral, even in war.

Thompson: What's going on here, Lieutenant?
Calley: This is my business.
Thompson: What is this? Who are these people?
Calley: Just following orders.
Thompson: Orders? Whose orders?
Calley: Just following...
Thompson: But, these are human beings, unarmed civilians, sir.
Calley: Look Thompson, this is my show. I'm in charge here. It ain't your concern.
Thompson: Yeah, great job.
Calley: You better get back in that chopper and mind your own business.
Thompson: You ain't heard the last of this!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.

[WriteDown]

27. If you use any 20 dollar bills, you're just an enabler....

Down with the 20!

[JonQ]

34. I agree and would like to start a campaign

whereby offended individuals could mail me all their evil 20 dollar bills, which I would then destroy in a manner that respects the severity of this situation.

If anyone is interested in disposing of their tainted money send me a private message and we can arrange the details.

[WriteDown]

46. You are a true patriot. nt

[Posteritatis]

39. Gotta love the Nuremburg defense. (nt)

[Indenturedebtor]

71. The SS = the German KKK || German Army = Jackson's Army

Big difference.

[reggie the dog]

88. Jackson chose to not only not listen to the supreme court in

Cherokee V Georgia, he mocked the court and told them to get their own army. He then went on a racially motivated murdering and raping spree and forced the rest of the cherokee from their lands.

[Indenturedebtor]

102. I am aware of that... however those troops didn't sign up to kill innocents

the SS "troops" did.

[Romulox]

3. For how many "Mississippis" do you think someone should hide before we just forget about mass murder

:shrug:

Or, in my big boy voice: there is no statute of limitations for crimes against humanity. :hi:

[rebecca_herman]

138. ok so...

If you find anyone alive today who participated then turn them in.

[leftynyc]

4. Comparing our troops to Nazis?

You disgust me.

[reggie the dog]

10. Do you really forget that the US army was huge

in killing off the native americans in the USA in the past. In they eyes of the people of afghanistan our soldiers are murders. My buddy who got back from service in afghanistan a couple of months ago told me this himself.

[Posteritatis]

36. There's a lotta people here convinced the US is the nadir of evil for all human history

After awhile I just kinda roll my eyes and skip past them now. Too many people here lack any kind of perspective on such things.

[JonQ]

40. And the fun part is

when the US is to blame for everything (literally in every area we are the worst nation that has ever existed) it means real concerns about the US get ignored.

Boy who cried wolf and whatnot.

[Posteritatis]

41. Or real concerns abroad, or both

I mean, I make a post about one of the coordinators of the Rwandan genocide getting caught and charged in Canada, a few days after another one is sentenced for the same thing, and nobody could talk about it at all; they had to make the thread just about Bush.

I know this site's supposed to have some tunnel vision in that regard, but it gets depressing sometimes.

(And I imagine if I didn't call it in advance here, I'd get some snotty "so you support the BFEE's war crimes?" response from some of 'em.)

[zelta gaisma]

6. are stuck in the wrong century/decade?! wtf!!!!!....

:mad: :puke:

you sound like the morons accusing Vietnam vets of being "baby killers" what an asshat thing to say. and as far as i know the USA DOESN'T do genocide... torture yes (brought to you by G.W.Bush) but not genocide!

[reggie the dog]

11. trail of tears? lakota? wounded knee?????

[JonQ]

19. 1800s

Not really all the relevant today, or else we'd be calling for the British government to be tried at the Hague for their hand in the Irish potato famine and following genocide.

[RedCloud]

29. Stop it right here. Dead native americans and Afro-Americans impacts today's world.

Those groups were not allowed to grow to be as bountiful as another one. That affects everything in politics and the economy.

[JonQ]

32. And that relates to trying still living nazi war criminals how?

Go ahead and round up and execute everyone responsible for the native american genocide and african slavery. And others will continue rounding up actual nazi war criminals.

It's fairly disgusting that a news piece about nazi war criminals is immediately turned around and somehow blamed on the US.

When an article comes up about the genocide of natives in the US (and I imagine with thanksgiving coming up there will be a few) does anyone on here attempt to excuse it by pointing out other genocides that occurred in other countries?

[WriteDown]

25. Please burn all your 20 dollar bills immediately and never use one again. nt

[zelta gaisma]

26. well...... wounded knee and the trail of tears...

that was seriously F*ed up but wasn't about killing ALL the Lakota. It was about putting down "rebellion" of the Ghost Dance and moving them to make it easier to steal the land.
The Trail of Tears it was the relocation and movement of Native Americans, including many members of the Cherokee, Creek, Seminole,and Choctaw nations among others in the United States, from their homelands to Indian Territory (present day Oklahoma) in the Western United States. The phrase originated from a description of the removal of the Choctaw Nation in 1831.Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease, and starvation while en route to their destinations, and many died, including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee.(assholes all of the men involved)
BTW I am N.American, Ojibwa and Sioux(Lakota)so...

[reggie the dog]

59. the trail of tears

was about forcing people who had won a supreme court case against the state of georgia and got to keep thier lands off of their lands, general jackson said the supreme court could find its own army and went for it. Many died on the trail of tears because the army didnt give a fuck. The long term goal was the elimination of native americans. Killing of 99% of an ethnic group counts as genocide even if 1% survive

[Arugula Latte]

18. We slaughtered and maimed thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, though.

If that's not genocide, it's mass murder on a grand scale.

[JonQ]

20. By that defnition isn't every war genocide

or at least mass murder on a grand scale?

I believe a few germans were slaughtered and maimed in the second world war. And koreans in the korean war, and so on ad infinitum.

[Posteritatis]

38. There's a pretty detailed and generally ignored definition of genocide that's accepted in most place

It annoys me that it's ignored; it results in just about everything being hyperbolized into "genocide," watering down the term to the point of useless, and jading people about the word enough that, well, it encourages the actual thing more often as a result.

[Thothmes]

76. Lyndon Johnson slaughtered and maimed millions

of Vietnames, though. If that's not genocide, its's mass murder on a grand scale.

[reggie the dog]

58. my father was ordered to kill babies

he was a Marine in Vietnam, ordered to kill all human life in communist villages then burn the villages to the ground. He has had nighmares ever since, was convinced he deserved to see his own children die by law of karma, and eventually he and the other guys told their higher up that they would be letting the women, kids, and the old run into the jungle before the village was burned and that the men would be let flee or taken pow or else the commander just may have gotten killed by "an enemy sniper" my old man and his other fellow soldiers risked a lot with that conversation, but not before several of the guys got hooked on heroin trying to forget what they had done and the rest had been having nighmares.

[proteus_lives]

74. Provide proof please.

Your claims are verging on outlandish.

[Joe Chi Minh]

82. Wouldn't you say Mai Lai was outlandish? But it wasn't. Such actions were apparently widespread.

And no, I will not provide you with proof. Do you really think people have nothng better to do than provide you with 'proof' of their assertions?

I don't think you're quite the round shilling, making that comment out "it verging on the outlandish." It seems to be characteristic of your posts. Much that has gone on in the US for centuries, but particularly during the last 9 years, and earlier, in Vietnam, is extremely outlandish in the eyes of the rest of the world.

[proteus_lives]

83. Well, I wasn't asking you for proof.

And no, Mai Lai wasn't outlandish.

But the above poster was making it sound like Mai Lais happened everyday. That is false, there is no way to hide that and we would know about daily massacres.

Like in the other thread this is where your historical ignorance holds you down. I'm not denying that massacres happen but the simple fact is they don't and haven't happened all the time. Not in the UK either. (And the Brits did occasionally massacre Africans, Indians and Irish but they didn't do it all the time.)

Edit: Also if he has discussed this in depth with his father, he'll be able to provide names, dates and locations. I'm not against him but I would like him back-up his claims.

[Joe Chi Minh]

85. All massacres of civilians by troops on the ground are "outlandish", under the

canons of the Geneva Convention and the Nuremburg Trials. Or have you gone over to the dark side?

I expect you would like him to back up his claims, interrogating his father and citing chapter and verse, but why on earth would he want to spend valuable time trying to convince you? Are you special? Or do you provide DUers with the sole definitive certification of the veracity of their statements; or deny it, as the case may be? The less of these bizarre demands for proof on here the better.

We don't need right-wing devil's advocates on here, thank you. I'm sure there are plenty of libraries you could trawl - not to mention the Internet - for the details you seek, if they mean so much to you.

[reggie the dog]

92. plus my old man does not like to talk about that kind of shit

we smoke a joint while camping sometims, expecially if we are alone, and i ask him about war so I can teach my students about what war is really like. It is hard on him, he cries and everything. Dude asked me for names and dates, like my dad kept a fuking log of the people he was ordered to massacre. He wanted to forget. Heroin was cheap and helped you forget everything is what he told me. Also told me he was not the only one sniffing china white heroin and smoking a lot of grass and drinking to forget. He says he lucked out getting the boat home and did no H on the boat and never did it again.

[Joe Chi Minh]

97. Of course. Service-people with far less harrowing stories don't like to

remember their war-time experiences, still less talk about them.

I thought it extraordinarily courageous of you to bring it up, and I hope if your Dad knows, it will give him some sense of relief. He is evidently a good man, whose peace of mind, like that of many other young men, has been destroyed by being put in an extraordinary, nightmare situation by thoroughly evil individuals in high places.

The fact that our friend could respond to your opening up like that in relation to such a tragic matter, in such a bizarre manner, beggared belief; I mean, peremptorily demanding PROOF(!), as if questioning your honesty, seemed weirdly disrespectful. But you know, I honestly suspect that he's not aware of how his response would seem to others. Tell your dad, he has a very heavy cross to bear, and he should always remember what he did was the last thing on earth he would have wanted to do. If he were a bad person, and not a very good person, his conscience would have been inured to sin, and it would not have affected him so painfully for all these years.

After WII, local villagers/townsfolk were forced to visit a nearby concentration camp - I think Belsen - some were grinning, others horrified beyond all measure. So much so, that the burgermeister committed suicide soon after. Thank God, your father was given the strength to soldier on, fighting the GOOD fight. That's what the endurance of innocent suffering is. If he were not innocent, he would have been unaffected.

There are two main categories of sin: formal and actual. What we actually do that is sinful, is actual sin, but we will only be condemned on the formal sins we commit: sins we do, not just knowingly, but willingly. And obviously your father and his pal hated whatever their bewilderment, stress and the political propaganda they were fed, from the moment they began school, and their training, had reduced them to doing.

Please give your father my very best wishes.

[reggie the dog]

108. I will talk about this next time I am face to face with my dad

probably next summer when I am back in the USA. I wonder if the other commentator has ever seen his father wake up from a nightmare straight into a flashback like I have several time while out camping with my father.

[Joe Chi Minh]

113. I think maybe he sees himself as DU's official notary public, and we

should all forward hard copies of our posts to him under registered cover, for his approval or rejection.

There was a post on here stating how the marines are trained specifically not to think for themselves, which up to a point makes sense in relation to shock troops. Unfortunately, the low self-esteem in relation to one's intelligence required for such obedience makes such young men very vulnerable to wicked governments and their puppet-masters; the old villains of the military-industrial-media complex.

[proteus_lives]

123. Catty aren't we?

It's amusing how you've embraced a fairy-tale because you're so petty. With no evidence to back it up.

And you know what? I write for a living and I would never publish a story unless I had sources to back it up. Those are the rules and when I see a DUer make an claim that smells like bullshit to me, I ask them to back it up.

Apparently, you believe whatever you are told on the internet.

"There was a post on here stating how the marines are trained specifically not to think for themselves, which up to a point makes sense in relation to shock troops. Unfortunately, the low self-esteem in relation to one's intelligence required for such obedience makes such young men very vulnerable to wicked governments and their puppet-masters; the old villains of the military-industrial-media complex."

Way to take a piss on the millions of smart men and women who have served in the armed forces. Ask any number of DUers who are veterans how low their intelligence or self-esteem was. And you and the other poster continue to ignore that in boot camp soldiers are told not to obey illegal orders and they are taught ethics.

[reggie the dog]

124. blogs are conversations

I would never publish the things my dad told me about in a book with our family name on it, not at least while he is still alive.

[Joe Chi Minh]

131. You see. You hope to impress with your bizarre boast that you're a writer,

thereby bringing literature into disrepute. Why you can't even see your own folly, after I pointed it out to you! NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN CONVINCING YOU. Why should Reggie? That is not a rhetorical question. Why should Reggie give a tinker's cuss whether you believe him or not? The fact that you actually did upset him is not a reason. He was evidently just stunned at your weird "take" on his post. I repeat, why should he or anyone else consider your opinion in this matter of the remotest significance to anyone but you? Who knows, maybe there is something about your post that tickled someone's fancy. There's no accounting for tastes. But it would be entirely gratuitous.

"I write for a living and I would never publish a story unless I had sources to back it up."

So, you are actually equating an anecdotal post (no reason to disbelieve it, per se, for being anecdotal) with what you perceive as your requirement, as "someone who writes for a living"!!!! I kid you not, folks. We are left to assume it is a matter of great moment that anecdotes posted on here should address your doubts, on such a risible basis. Did Reggie submit his anecdote to a publisher, and were you an employee engaged by said publisher to appraise his anecdote, for the purposes of wider publication? No. Of course, not. You simply show that you have no sense of proportion.

In short, you can't even distinguish between the requirements for posting a personal anecdote on a non-specialist, public forum, with your own deemed requirements for submitting your oeuvres to a publisher.

And he wasn't even asking you to believe him! You mean nothing to him or to any of us; a nobody (who writes esteemed "oeuvres", admittedly). Nobody is asked to believe any post on here. If people do, fine! If they don't, well, hot diggidy, life goes on, probably even the thread!

No. You're the pretentious pseudo-intellectual here, with your "I'm a professional writer." You're dishonest, too. Not for the first time, you've conflated an issue and/or raised a straw man. In your second paragraph, you implied that I impugned veterans' intelligence, (while I spoke only of their lack of intellectual self-confidence), but that is because you don't understand the nature of true intelligence, which is not primarily worldly (which latter, however, is clearly what you consider to be true intelligence).

And, understandably, since you worldly-wise types tout your kind of sharp, superficial, venal intelligence, as the one and only intelligence worthy of the name, you are brimful of confidence in your own intellectual prowess, while the wiser, less avaricious and worldly-wise folk, correlatively lack confidence in their own intelligence. If you had understood that worldly intelligence needs to serve, instead of undermine, people in need of support that you might be able to offer in some small measure (we all need different kinds of support), you would never have responded to Reggie's in a manner that suggests you might have a troubling empathy deficit. "Brittle", "shallow", are words that spring to mind.

[proteus_lives]

133. Wow, look at him go!

Did you spill your latte in your fury to get that all down?

I know he's not asking to believe him. I don't care that he's not asking. I'm challenging because I think his story is bullshit. If he can't handle it (Like you obviously can't) then he should stop posting.

"but that is because you don't understand the nature of true intelligence, which is not primarily worldly (which latter, however, is clearly what you consider to be true intelligence)."

Hahahaha. I'm sensing a young or eternal student here. Let me give you a little knowledge. I don't think you understand what intelligence is at all. Worldly experience and intelligence is worth it's weight in gold and what you're talking about is good for college/grad school and little else. Like in your other posts you're only proving that you're inexperienced in life. You only read the books you're assigned. Do yourself a favor, start picking your own books, get a job start shaking all that 101-thinking out your head.

"If you had understood that worldly intelligence needs to serve, instead of undermine, people in need of support that you might be able to offer in some small measure (we all need different kinds of support), you would never have responded to Reggie's in a manner that suggests you might have a troubling empathy deficit. "Brittle", "shallow", are words that spring to mind. "

We're supposed to support even if we disagree or that they are fill of shit? Needs to serve? Empathy? I won't serves lies or give empathy to those that I think are dishonest. You're accusing me an "empathy deficit" (that's a LOL term, BTW) simply because I disagree with you.

Now you insult me, make snide comments and blah-blah-blah. But it doesn't change the fact that I think Reggie is lying and you're just continuing a dislike from another thread. You're a little boy who is trying to be a man but hasn't quite figured it yet. Don't worry, I'm not mad. I don't get at a kid's temper tantrum, it's part of growing up. You'll see that too one day.

[Joe Chi Minh]

135. Temper.. Temper... I don't want to mock you more than is absolutely necessary, ,

so I've deleted most of my post. Try and calm down, and move on.

[proteus_lives]

122. Yes, I have.

As I've stated before my father is a combat veteran of Vietnam. He has his PTSD issues.

Not camping though, in our house.

And you still can't back-up your claims about constant massacres.

[Alameda]

140. War is hell....it has been said over and over again......

My dad was in WWII, grandfather was in WWI. Grandfather was a child soldier...he was only 14. He had shell shock from what he experienced in the trenches. He was gassed, suffered greatly. He would totaly freak out from time to time, he died young. My father and uncle were both in Iwo Jima, and the occupation forces of Japan. My father does not want to talk about it. In fact, anytime I mention anything about it, he gets very edgy. I know he has PTSD, but he would never admit to it.

I lost a brother when he was 16, one thing my father said I'll never forget is, "well at least he didn't have to go to Vietnam".

Give your father a hug for me...but be gentle. Your father has done very well for even being able to talk about it.

[reggie the dog]

90. bullshit

you raze a village with 20 or 30 people in it and the world media does not notice it. I said villages, not towns. What proof do you want? Do you want my father to call you and tell you? So you can have him tried or something? Do you think they got those as written orders or something? How many vets do you think even talk about that kind of shit with anyone?

[proteus_lives]

98. Sorry, I don't believe you.

I've read your responses on this thread and it doesn't pass my smell test.

I simply asked for some evidence to back up your claims. Why? Because you've spent the entire thread comparing US soldiers to nazi soldiers. (You are obviously unfamiliar with Godwin's Law)

If you father did commit numerous massacres word would leak out. The entire books filled with accounts massacres of 20-30 people in various wars. Why? Because there are multiple soldiers who talk to multiple people. (Like you claimed your father spoke to you) There occasionally survivors, there are dying declarations, there are confessions by old men. There are records and files, everything from officer's reports to equipment logs that can help historians put the pieces together.

My dad told me about how he once saw a officer get fragged so yes, vets do discuss these things. After all your father allegedly talked to you, yes? And now you're sharing it on the internet.

[Joe Chi Minh]

114. The reason for Godwin's Law, you nut, is that it's check-mate - game, set and match

to the person who invokes the Nazis and their "ethos". I can't believe the mindless superficiality of invoking so-called Godwin's Law. Utter madness.

[Joe Chi Minh]

116. I thought our notary would have been aware of Blodwen's Law, which takes precedence. It states

that whosoever invokes Godwin's Law, ipso facto, cedes the argument to his opponent; it being evident beyond all peradventure that, having been rumbled, he knows the game is up. He is not going to say, "OK guv'nor. It's a fair cop." So, he holds his peace. In a military context, it would be called 'a rout'.

[reggie the dog]

91. names dates and locations?

whatever his commanders name was, he told me before but I forgot, dates sometime in 1969. Places, in tiny villages in the middle of the fucking jungle!

[proteus_lives]

99. So you're admiting you can't prove any of your claims.

I think you're just trying to make US soldiers out to be nazis.

[reggie the dog]

107. My father's word in enough proof for me.

[proteus_lives]

118. It's not for me.

People lie about war-time service all the time. And since you can't back any of it up....

You're making stories in your effort to smear the US army.

[reggie the dog]

125. You think my dad made up this "story" as you call it

to smear the US army? He was in the Marine Corps for one and 2 my father has no incentive whatsoever to make things like this up.

[reggie the dog]

89. What motivation would my father have to lie about such a thing?

He hates war. When the war in kosovo started I was 18 he called our family in Canada to see if I could work on their farm if ever there was a draft, the people were his second cousins. He told me time and time again that they were orderd to kill everyone in "communist villages" and burn the villages to the ground because they were told that kids, women etc were all commies and the only good commies were dead ones. Why would he lie about thant kind of thing to me? Why would he break down in tears talking about it and why would my uncle have once said "why the hell did you tell your kids what they made us do?"

[proteus_lives]

119. Sounds like he looking for attention. Didn't you say he was a junkie?

And I don't believe the uncle bit either. You're adding chunks to make your story more believable.

It's not believable. If you had sprouted off about one massacre, maybe. But constant, maybe even daily? No. You can't cover that up. So unless you provide prove, you're just weaving a story to support your US soldiers= Nazis meme.

[reggie the dog]

126. I said my dad never did heroin once he got back to the states

never. He smoked grass sometimes. Right, my dad was looking for my attention so he made shit up. And to let you know my uncle now was my dads best friend at the time. They joined the Marines as buddies from what I was told, saw each other in Vietnam more than once but were in different platoons. When we would go to Vientnam vets campouts together I would ask questions like a young boy does and sometimes my dad gave answers that my uncle disagreed with and thought should be best kept from the ears of our kids. I dont know if my uncle had to do the same horrible shit my dad did, but he had to do enough that he has PTSD and refuses to talk about many of his experiences there.

I do not think US soldiers have been like the Nazi's since the genocide of the Native Americans. Sure US soldiers kill a lot of civilians and all with bombs and it is horrible but genocide is not the goal. I am arguing all this because I think leaders, not foot soldiers, should be tried as war criminals.

[Alameda]

141. Where do you get off here? It's common knowledge.....

do you think all the Vets reporting such things are making it up? Have you not heard....WAR IS HELL!!!

[Joe Chi Minh]

95. It would be interesting to know how far up the chain of command the orders

originated from, to massacre those villagers, and the identities of the individuals concerned, but that's hardly likely to have been documented, is it?

[reggie the dog]

109. for all I know his commander could have been sadistic and

doing the ordering himself, or perhaps it went higher up.

[proteus_lives]

120. Once again, there would be evidence.

There was no official policy for massacring citizens and if was a "rogue" officer, that's even more bullshit. Because officers don't go rogue without people noticing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. At this stage, the punishments are largely symbolic -- but still necessary.

Move his hospital bed to a prison infirmary. At least we can say he was eventually caught.

Mengele having escaped and lived free until he died of a silly accident sucked major ass.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

16. I'm sure you're familiar with that story about Mengele's "twin town" in Brazil. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Yes. What I find really astonishing in that story...

...is that he apparently found the restraint to perform his tricks there without torturing or killing anybody.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

30. Amazing indeed. Maybe he went to a neighboring town for that. nt

[COLGATE4]

7. It's never too late.

Even if it's largely symbolic, anything that keeps the horror of the Holocaust alive and present for today's youth is tremendously valuable. It's just too bad that most of these less than animals will cheat the (at least earthly) justice by dying first - one can only hope that there is truly some type of divine retribution awaiting them.

[reggie the dog]

8. Let the old man just die at home already

The Neo Nazis are eating this trial up I bet. What a great ad for the neo nazis in Germany. I know the guy is accused of some horrible shit but it seems he put the war behind himself long ago and damn it soldiers do follow orders out of fear for their own lives if they disobey!

[emilyg]

43. As a survivor - I believe it's

never too late to punish them.

[JonQ]

47. I think there shold be a statute of limitations on crimes against humanity

Say 400 years or so? After that they are officially off the hook.

To be updated with advances in medical care of course.

[Posteritatis]

48. So what if it riles up the neo-Nazis? Are we supposed to coddle them at the expense of justice? (nt)

[cali]

49. wait, you actually think he shouldn't be prosecuted because he put the

war behind himself years ago? That's truly fucked up thinking. And those is the S.S weren't just soldiers.

[reggie the dog]

60. I think it is bullshit to hold non leaders responsible

the guy is 90 and has obviously posed no problem for anyone since the war ended. What he did is no worse than my own father was ordered to do against Vietnamese villagers. Kill them all he was told to do.

[cali]

67. sorry, your father's war crimes- and sorry if he killed unarmed civilians

he committed war crimes- does not absolve what this man did. If your father lined up civilians and murdered them in cold blood, he committed war crimes.

[reggie the dog]

93. he was ordered to because they were communists

what was he to do, disobey and risk not making it home himself? Or going on trial and being executed by the military for disobeying orders in a time of battle. What would you have done? 19 years old told kill or you will be in a world of shit! NO FUCKING WAY YOU MAKE THE KIDS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SHIT ORDERS THE ADULTS GAVE THEM!

[proteus_lives]

101. He wasn't a child.

If this actually happened.

19 and 20 year-olds are capable of making decisions.

"Or going on trial and being executed by the military for disobeying orders in a time of battle."

Wouldn't have happened. Because massacring citizens is illegal. He was not supposed to follow illegal orders. He would been a hero for reporting what happened. (If something had happened at all.)

[Posteritatis]

103. That and the US military doesn't execute soldiers for insubordination

Or, generally, for any other reason. There was only one execution for violation of orders (specifically, desertion) during the entire Second World War and afterwards; every other one of the 150 or so executions during the war and since - every other one - was for rape or muder.

[proteus_lives]

105. Yep, it smells bad and he won't explain the odor.

Thanks for the additional info.

[reggie the dog]

110. I am telling you about the fear

in the mind of a nineteen year old scared of punishment for not following orders, or being killed by more overzealous soldiers thinking his refusual is putting everyone at risk. He was scared of military prision, perhaps not making it home alive.

[proteus_lives]

117. So he thought that was a good excuse? (if any of this happened)

Soldiers disobeyed orders all the time in Vietnam.

Being scared isn't a good reason for killing children. (Apparently your father thought it was. If any of this happened.)

[reggie the dog]

127. For the first part of his tour the guys were told they were doing

the same shit all over vietnam. Search and destroy in the jungle involving wiping out small "communist villages" it destroyed their moral from what he told me so before the war ended they let their commander know that they would be letting all the people run out into the jungle before they would burn the villages down. That way the air recon could see that the "target" had been hit but the people were still alive.

[proteus_lives]

132. It's falling apart again.

First off, Search and Destroy missions were about destroying groups of NVA and VC troops. A large number of them weren't even in villages, they were trail ambushes and jungle fighting.

Yes, villages were searched and destroyed but the focus wasn't on killing citizens. Villages were about destroying rice stockpiles and arms caches. They were supposed to let people go. In fact, there were millions of refugees because of these tactics.

They weren't murder missions, reporters and journalists were all over Vietnam, that was one of the reasons they couldn't keep Mi Lai under wraps.

I'm sorry but your father did not conduct constant massacres of civilian villages. If he did so many of them, why didn't he describe a Search and Destroy mission correctly?

[Posteritatis]

70. And the defense of war crimes becomes clear. (nt)

[reggie the dog]

94. hold the leaders accountable

not the teenage soldiers scared shitless by their commanders and who follow orders and want nothing more than to go home. Put yourself in the same situation. What would you have done? When you were 19, and your commander would testify that you refused to shoot an armed communist to which you would say unarmed civilian, and the judge would likely belive the commander. For real I do not defend war crimes, the leaders that order the war cimes should be punished. How courageous were you at 19? on the other side of the world? in some jungle you just wanted to leave to go back home, not knowing why the fuck your country wanted you there.....

[Joe Chi Minh]

115. But some of them, such as Demjanjuk, were just evil sadists and deserve to be hanged

if they're 100, Reg, imo.

I think that fear factor can scarcely be overstated under such a ruthlessly murderous, terror-driven regime as the Nazis exercised. The ones I have no pity for are the Demjanjuks, and types such as those who gave the retreating German troops, orders to blow up the houses they passed on their way out of Russia; when they must have known it as all over for them. Sheer malice. But I can sure understand your weariness with the complexity of the picture, often not comprehended. I believe the comprehension of notaries, in particular, is unusually limited in this area.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Arugula Latte]

21. I used to think we were better than that.

Then I saw how the people just accepted a stolen election and went along with Bushco's bidding, even when it involved slaughtering thousands of innocent people for corporate aims. Now I realize that a good chunk of our Fox News/hate radio-lovin' braindead citizens would be at the front of the line for their brownshirts if Hannity or Beck or Limbaugh told them to join the SS.

[Thothmes]

79. We did that sort of stuff back in the sixities on a scale that

would make Bush's antics look like childs play. Look at the butchers bill in Vietnam.

[JonQ]

22. A bit difficult

comparing actual events to hypotheticals.

Sure they actually did it, but we probably would have also done it under the same circumstances, so we are just as bad, worse even!

[proteus_lives]

31. If you think there is no difference between us and germans of WWII.

You are truly stupid.

Do I really have to explain this?

Your icon is appropriate, you're obviously perma-fried.

[reggie the dog]

62. you think americans are somehow morally better than germans?

seriously look at your hate radio, your culture of i got mine fuck you, your worship of war and warriors, imperialistic wars. You have politicians who say they like to hunt liberals, do not forget that "true believers" of nazism were estimated in the 25 to 35 percent range. I think you could find the same "base" in the USA couldn't you? Plus what have american soldiers done in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?

[proteus_lives]

72. Damn right I do.

Hate radio, culture? You think those are American inventions? Every thing crass in our culture can be found in every country on earth.

"your worship of war and warriors, imperialistic wars."

Arc de Triomphe anyone?

"You have politicians who say they like to hunt liberals"

National Front, Movement for France.

"do not forget that "true believers" of nazism were estimated in the 25 to 35 percent range."

Check your facts, the majority of Germans supported Hitler and the Nazis. Those camps didn't run themselves.

"I think you could find the same "base" in the USA couldn't you?"

No actually I don't. The media pumps them up but they are the fringe. The teabaggers make up bare thousands in a nation of 300 million.

"Plus what have american soldiers done in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan?"

Show me one piece of paper that states the official US policy is to kill civilians and commit genocide. Bad shit does happen but at the small unit level-like in all armies. We don't put up murder camps and we have always tried to minimize civilian causalities. I have friends and family who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and they have told me about the hoops they jumped through not to hurt civilians.

Remember that France was in Vietnam before us and shall I mention Algeria? The French can't throw stones at the US. Also, Muslim riots because France treats them like second-class citizens. Linguistic imperialism and other forms of cultural imperialism.

[Thothmes]

80. How much of the illegal killing in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan

were the offical policy of the admistration in Washington. Much different than the killing done by the SS and the German Army as part of German Government policy and directive.

[JonQ]

35. Your profile says you're from france

can I take it you are sorry for the active (and eager in some cases) cooperation of the french with the germans in rounding up jews for the ovens?

If you think about it the french were no better than the germans in the 1940s. Not even counting the various genocides they carried out in the name of french imperialism (haiti and vietnam spring to mind).

I mean, I'm not saying the nazis weren't bad and all, but the french did actively help them and probably would have originated the idea of the holocaust on their own given the opportunity.

[mamaleah]

50. +1

Don't hold your breath waiting for a response. France still has plenty of anti-semites.

[proteus_lives]

51. They'll never own up to it.

After WWII The Netherlands prosecuted more war criminals and collaborators than France did.

[reggie the dog]

57. France had general De Gaulle

He gave the image that France was an ally. Morally many French were lazy then and said, oh we were the good guys. France should have had more trials just after the war and busted all those WHO ORDERED THEIR TROOPS TO COMMITT THESE ACTS OF BARBARY! But the average drafted soldier???? hell no! One one hand we say they should have disobeyed, ok they would be dead themselves, on the other just following orders is not a defense? If you follow or die I think there is no real choice and no real guilt.

Plus my family faught against the Nazis. My American grandfather fought in the north of France. I have lived in France for 6 years and have only been French for 3 years.

[reggie the dog]

55. Sadly France does have its share of idiot anti semites

but on the plus side French people can distinguish between anti semites and people who disagree with the state policies of israel much better than many people in America can.

[mamaleah]

61. Hmmm

You mean like some people (even on the left) who justify anti-semitic acts in the US with ramblings about the ME?

[reggie the dog]

66. no, those people would be shithead racists

[reggie the dog]

54. I have been in France since 2003.

I have double nationality and yes, the french sent jews to their deaths, as they were told to do my maracheal pétain who was controlled by the Nazis, or just told by the nazis in nazi controlled france. The nazis scared the shit out of most people. Only the bravest were in la résistance. The others, out of fear, minded their own business and did what the occupiers told them to do. Also, my father, as an American Marine in Vietnam was ORDERED to kill any human life in communist villages, kids, women, old folks, men, kill all humans, then burn the village to the ground. He was ordered but has had nightmares ever since.

[Posteritatis]

37. Generally speaking, better than the Waffen-SS? Fuck yes they are. (nt)

[reggie the dog]

63. blackwater

this is not a "blame the us" this a we are pretty close to being as fucked up as they were idea.

[Posteritatis]

69. Fuzzy little kittens by comparison. Get some perspective. (nt)

[reggie the dog]

87. fuzzy little kittens doing illegal torture

and killing people for being muslim is not as bad as doing illegal torture and killing people for being Jewish?

[OmahaGTP]

17. So the 'blame America first crowd' does exist?

What the Nazi party did in WWII and what America did to the native Americans are both unjust things. Both inexcusable things.

But to say that Nazi's shouldn't be held accountable because of a completely unrelated period of time, is absurd. It is possible to be against both. But to say let the Nazi die free, but let's bring up all this other stuff for the sake of being argumentative/we should have tried Americans is just stupid. You can't have it both ways.

[Indenturedebtor]

24. I'm with you Omaha. And for another thing the SS wasn't a normal military outfit

It was populated with the most hateful and eager nazis of them all. Just following orders my ass. That's like saying a Klansman who took part in 50 fatal lynchings was just following orders. He was in the damn KLAN ffs.

[emilyg]

44. +10

[reggie the dog]

64. no, we should not have tried the american soldiers

we should have tried general jackson. I am totally against trying individual soldiers because mutiny against an army committing heinous acts is not easy and we should not be holding 19 year olds responsable for what they were orderd to do.

[Ichingcarpenter]

23. I was so hoping it was Poppa Bush, Baby Bush

Cheney or Rumsfeld. War Crimes never go away!!!!!!!!

Glad Germany is doing the right thing.

[Thothmes]

78. Or maybe McNamara or Johnson

[DU GrovelBot]

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[dflprincess]

42. I hope Obama is paying attention

he who thinks we shouldn't even investigate the crimes committed by the Bush Administration because they are "in the past".

Germany is setting a good example for him.

[IndianaGreen]

45. I don't care if Herr Storm is 200 years old and on life support

this war criminal must face justice for his crimes.

[proteus_lives]

53. I disagree with you a lot but no argument here.

He has to go on the dock for he's done.

[Ter]

56. If he acted on his own, try him and jail him

If he were following orders, leave him alone. Had he disobeyed, his superiors would have killed him.

[reggie the dog]

65. exactly

[proteus_lives]

73. No.

My father is a combat veteran of Vietnam and he fought in the Tet Offensive and didn't kill any civilians or children. He held other soldiers back on several occasions.

You want to go easy on the old Nazi because of your guilt over your father's crimes.

[reggie the dog]

86. my old man was ordered to destroy villages when he was 19

In the Marine Corps he went out in the jungle with a dozen or so other guys and he was scared into following shitty orders. My father did no crime. He joined the marines for the one year active tour of duty as opposed to the two you got in the army when you were drafted. The guy raised me to be scared of the goverment because of the shit they ordered him to do in Vietnam. How many times did your father disobey orders given to him telling him to kill all humans in a village?

[Posteritatis]

96. I'm sure the families of those he murdered are relieved to hear he committed no crime. (nt)

[proteus_lives]

100. If you're not lying (Which I believe you are) He's a murderer.

And a war-criminal.

And it sound like unlike your father, mine had a moral center. Plus he listened in boot camp where they teach you about not following illegal orders.

[reggie the dog]

111. Ask your father if he was ordered to kill civilians

If he never was asked he never had to disobey.

[U4ikLefty]

104. Prove it.

This BS about you "father" doesn't pass the smell test.

[reggie the dog]

112. what proof do you want beyond what he told me?

what motivation would he have to lie about this kind of shit?

[proteus_lives]

121. Looking for attention.

People lie about war-time service all the time.

[reggie the dog]

128. he is not looking for attention

I asked him once when we were camping and he woke up from a nighmare into a flashback what he was dreaming about. So he told me, the faces of dead children, babies and what not shot and blow up in their jungle villages. I was all of 11 at the time. My father did not need to make shit up for attention. He had my attention already because he is an involved father and now grandfather. He would come watch all of my soccer games and many times take me out riding on his Harley with him afterwards.

[U4ikLefty]

134. I wasn't asking YOU for proof.

I was asking the "professional writer".

He seems to ask for what he doesn't provide.

[cali]

68. He was in the Waffen SS

And sorry, following orders is not a defense.

[Ter]

75. So why not just try and jail EVERY Nazi soldier that ever lived?

Even the grunts. While you're at it, jail any soldier who was in the military during Stalin's rule.

:sarcasm:

[cali]

77. Why not learn something about the subject? The vast majority of German soldiers

weren't in the S.S.

[Thothmes]

84. Until the last weeks of WWII, as the Russians were closing in

on Berlin, you will find scant evidence in German Army records of enlisted men be executed for refusing to participate in killing of civilians.

[Electric Monk]

106. What a shame it took so long

[rockymountaindem]

129. So people on this board are excusing a Nazi war criminal because of the following:

1)He's old (hell he's gotten away with it this long, let's just let bygones be bygones)

2) Andrew Jackson was cruel to the Native Americans (Absolutely true, but has nothing to do with what happened 120 years later in another part of the world)

3) Because of US actions in Vietnam, this person should go free because it would be, what, bad karma? to punish him while letting others slip through the net of human justice.

Well, that's pretty pathetic. However I am sure the SS veterans association (http://www.reichslieder.com/HIAG.html) is happy they've got people on here minimizing their crimes. Honor is loyalty, after all. As for me, well, I agree it's been a long time since this man Storms did what he did. Too bad in the interim Europe abolished the death penalty even for Nazi war criminals.

[junior college]

130. I'm glad they found this guy

It is a reminder of the atrocities committed against the Jewish people. The world must never forget what happened to the Jews.

[Generator]

136. You gotta hand it to Germany

They have really stepped up. And some of the nicest people I ever met while traveling- greens and the like and smart too.

It gives you hope for America-maybe after we are totally reduced to ruins and stop our warmonging torturing & killing leaders (oh JFK and RFK and MLK) we can be a contender in the not going straight to hell forever department too.

[mddem9850]

139. Nice to know such scum don't get away