Officials: Major Hasan Sought "War Crimes" Prosecution of U.S. Soldiers

[sabra]

Source: ABC News

Rebuffed, Accused Fort Hood Shooter Took Extra Target Practice, Closed Bank Safety Deposit Box in Final Days, Investigators Say

Major Nidal Hasan's military superiors repeatedly ignored or rebuffed his efforts to open criminal prosecutions of soldiers he claimed had confessed to "war crimes" during psychiatric counseling, according to investigative reports circulated among federal law enforcement officials.

On Nov. 4, the day after his last attempt to raise the issue, he took extra target practice at Stan's shooting range in nearby Florence, Texas and then closed a safe deposit box he had at a Bank of America branch in Killeen, according to the reports. A bank employee told investigators Hasan appeared nervous and said, "You'll never see me again."

A corporate spokesperson contacted by ABC News had no comment.

Investigators believe Hasan's frustration over the failure of the Army to pursue what he regarded as criminal acts by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan may have helped to trigger the shootings.

"The Army may not want to admit it, and you may not hear much about it, but it was very big for him," said one of the federal investigators on the task force collecting evidence of the crime.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/officials-major-hasan-sought-war-crimes-prosecution-us/story?id=9019904

[unhappycamper]

1. Somehow I feel Hasan's going to get trashed, regardless of the facts.

He did the deed, but we don't know why. My bet? PTSD from treating PTSD.

[EFerrari]

18. Imho, he was obviously unstable. How many shrinks do you know

that forget everything said to them is privileged?

Yeah, he's going to get creamed. And you're right, trauma can be contagious.

This story makes me so sad.

[paulsby]

22. silly assumption

you assume he FORGOT about privilege. why do you assume that. it's more likely he ignored privilege, based on the assload of evidence that he was a religiously motivated murderous piece of garbage.

he forgot privilege... lol

reminds me of the old steve martin joke "your honor, i forgot that theft was a crime"

seriously. yours is a parody post right?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[EFerrari]

29. I have too much respect for our volunteer mods

to do anything but finally put you on ignore.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[bluesmail]

45. I too, did the same. Ignore. HA! My ignore list is growing. EOM

[Garam_Masala]

55. lol pretty soon you will be talking to yourself

[Garam_Masala]

54. the "racist" card is the last refuge .. eom

[EFerrari]

64. What does that even mean to you?

The "racist card" is a right wing expression used to avoid admitting -- racism.

[Snazzy]

57. ah making progress. good good good

Ideology is a much more precise term, by orders of magnitude, to describe what motivates a terrorist, as opposed to "religiously motivated" as you have in several past postings/threads.

That would be assuming he was a terrorist, which I don't think has been established.

The other possibility you have exactly half-right down the thread when you call him a "religious nutjob". Had you just called him a nutjob, you'd possibly be, at long last, on solid ground.

You must have heard somewhere by now that the vast right-wing noise machine just loves the opportunity to paint Hasan as motivated to kill by his Muslim faith. We have wars to fight after all. With Muslims!! It fits the narrative, don't it?

Obviously, endorsing that canard, what the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity and Christian right wants us to believe, that the Muslim faith itself motivates mass-killings of non-believers via their evil book the Koran, is incompatible with reality on several fronts, to wit:

(1) it doesn't (see Google or perhaps the Koran), and,
(2) there are, if I can borrow some terminology from you, "an assload" of non-massively-homicidal Muslims that nearly outnumber pretty much everybody else on the planet

So I have to wonder, what does the oft-repeated soundbite "religiously motivated" mean?

When we use imprecise, perhaps not well reasoned language, to surmise and understand behavior, like Rush, Sean, Bill, Pat et al., we enter the world of us v. them as opposed to religious freedom and all men created equal--those are our actual values and laws last I checked. The people who argue for some less than equal status for Muslims, no matter how much of it is subtext in walking up to the lines of what is acceptable to say be it on DU or on teevee, either don't really get it, or have their own sort of extremist ideology. But that's not calling you racist, is it? Well, of course not.

[Winterblues]

39. If you read what was written you would see he called the assumption silly and not you

But then people around here jump to conclusions easily..

[EFerrari]

40. No, I don't jump to conclusions much. But thank you for your concern. n/t

[JonQ]

47. What exactly did he say that was racist?

I've been going over everything he wrote and none of it was racist in the least.

[JonQ]

46. He's clearly forgetful

he forgot that you aren't supposed to shoot fellow soldiers on base. He forgot that he was a soldier in the US army first and a muslim 2nd. It's not his fault, he just has a bad memory.

And pointing that out is racist, you know the old stereotype about how arabs are always forgetting things.

:sarcasm:

[paulsby]

50. lol awesome

i mean seriously. a psychiatrist FORGETTING about privilege. that's like, um, i'm trying to think of a good analogy. richard dawkins forgetting he's an atheist? dolly parton forgetting she has large breasts?

[mrbarber]

62. Dont' bother Paulsby.

It's not worth it.

[shadowknows69]

32. Not everything is privledged info with a shrink if you admit to capital crimes.

If you are considered a danger to yourself or other innocents a psychiatrist is duty bound to report such things.

[EFerrari]

35. That's true. After I posted, recalled the requirement to report

abuse and etc.

But it still sounds as if this doctor was out of touch with his professional obligation to his patients.

[shadowknows69]

36. Or the military is turning a deaf ear to things they should listen to.

Neither scenario justifies anything he did obviously, but this story has changed facts more than I change underwear so who the fuk knows anymore?

[EFerrari]

37. Gates told everybody to shut up late last week.

Afaik, Hasan tripped triggers for years and our broken systems gave him a pass.

This was a fully preventable tragedy, imo.

[shadowknows69]

41. Oh I agree about the preventable part.

I used to be astounded at how loose security seemed on the base I used to drive taxi on. They just started doing FBI background checks on drivers up here, but even when I was there DOD ran a check before you could drive there.

[EFerrari]

42. And even more than the perimeter, what about all the people

who worked with this guy up close for all those years? They'd see a lot more first hand than the folks charged with traffic.

:shrug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

56. We learned about this in law school.

Doctor-patient, attorney-client, husband-wife, clergy-penitent privileges.

All overruled when the professional has a duty to report criminal acts or intent to commit criminal acts or suicide.

Sounds like he tried to be a proper professional and got punished and rebuffed for it. Typical American attitude.

You may call me Doctor, since I have a law degree.

Very sad situation.

[amandabeech]

67. Would you please look that up tomorrow if you are now practicing.

I don't remember it quite that way, but I no longer practice and it has been some time.

What I remember is that there may be a duty to report very likely criminal actions that would cause bodily harm to the patient or another.

I don't recall that a duty to report crimes that happened in the past was nearly as clear. If a psychiatrist had a duty to report, troubled many troubled patients would hesitate to seek help, for obvious reasons.

This may be an issue that varies somewhat from state to state. It is possible that you and I learned different variations.

I'd look it up myself, but I'm not practicing and I do not have access to a law library.

[paulsby]

21. rubbish

lol. that's so common psychiatrists who commit mass murder because they hear stories of trauma.

what utter rubbish.

there's trainloads of evidence this guy is a religious nutcase and that his murders were religiously motivated.

just like a guy who bombs abortion clinics or murders a dr. who performs abortion.

PTSD that caused him to yell "allahu akbar" while gunning down innocents, or give away copies of the koran to his neighbors before going on a killing spree, or post on the internet support for suicide bombers, or spend his lecture time at a psychiatric conference proselytizing radical islam and scaring the crap out of his coworkers?

yea, sure... PTSD

[boppers]

52. Repeatedly hearing stories of "justified murder" has an effect on people.

Especially when that kind of murder goes ignored.

If it's okay to hear story, after story, about murder, to where it becomes "normal", is it a surprise when a person who was subjected to hearing said stories thinks that murder is somehow justified?

Oh, and before diagnosing others with having, or not having, PTSD, it helps to understand it.

[ljm2002]

75. I thought that "Allahu Akbar" thing had not yet been verified...

...there was only one person who reported it, if I recall. Given how much else that was reported and turned out to be false, or stretching the truth, I will reserve judgment until there is more verification on that.

Clearly, his religious identity played a role. But that is a far cry from "he was a Muslim terrorist". We've had plenty of regular white Christian men (you know, "real 'Muricans") who snapped and committed murders and mass shootings. So I'm not really eager to label him as a Muslim terrorist rather than a demented / damaged individual just like those responsible for many other incidents.

On the other hand, it could be terrorism. It could be that he has had contact with Al Qaeda, just like they say, and that the intelligence agencies who monitored these contacts just kept ignoring it all because... well that's a question without an answer, isn't it? Especially with all the red flags that we are finding out about, that have been going on with this individual for years.

Whatever else can be said about this terrible tragedy, one thing cannot be denied: there were many, many opportunities to prevent it. Perhaps we should be putting some of our efforts in that direction.

It seems to me that some folks just want to jump up and down and bleat and pound their chests so they can say See, we got terrorism here! It would be a lot more acceptable if the same people had jumped up and down that way for Tim McVeigh, or Tiller's murderer, et-fucking-cetera.

[fascisthunter]

26. tragic all the way around

[JonQ]

2. I thought psychiatrists

and psychologists were supposed to keep client information confidential.

[unhappycamper]

3. But war crimes trump confidential. n/t

[JonQ]

6. But remember this is what he alleges

he also thinks killing muslims is wrong no matter what. So a war crime to him could mean a christian soldier admitting to shooting a muslim soldier.

[unhappycamper]

8. And that's the conundrum.

There's no way to tell. :shrug:

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. I started to write a cogent answer but in the end it comes down to

'That is a fucking ignorant comment, and not worthy of answering.'

He is a soldier. He knows the difference.

[JonQ]

38. You're right, he is an exemplary soldier

and embodies all the virtues and training that the US army instilled in it's recruits. In no way has he performed less than commendably as a soldier.

Afterall, he did such a great job "knowing the difference" between enemies he's supposed to kill and comrades he is supposed to protect, why wouldn't that same attention to detail carry over in to his professional life?

[L. Coyote]

9. Not criminal conduct!

That's your lawyer, not your doctor.

[paulsby]

25. false

the privilege is roughly the same

a psychologist or psychiatrist has the same sort of privilege that applies to them

they are required to report to authorities if a client tells them he is planning to commit a future crime, or if he is clearly an imminent danger to himself or others (this happens at my job sometimes. an MHP will call our dispatch and request a patient be taken into protective custody), but the patient is protected for any admissions he makes in regards to past acts, just like with an attorney.

[Lochloosa]

14. The rules for this may be different in the military.

I have no idea if they are but it would not surprise me.

And I'm not saying that is a bad thing.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. In the real world, yes, but the military has no such constraints.

IIRC, if a military doctor hears of a crime from a patient he is obligated to report it to his superiors, for the good of the service.

Confidentiality has little meaning in the military.

[EFerrari]

20. Wouldn't it get down to who issues the MD license?

[paulsby]

23. correct

they are also not supposed to be mass murdering religious nutcases.

hasan wasn't much for following rules

[optimator]

4. he should spill the beans

truth trumps everything

[unhappycamper]

5. ding ding ding

:fistbump:

[JonQ]

48. But "truth" in this case is very subjective

unless the sessions were recorded it will be his word against theirs. And he has shown that mentally he's not all that stable, and certainly not unbiased.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. The ever-changing story of what the Army knew prior to the shootings at Ft. Hood.

[iandhr]

10. he claimed had confessed to "war crimes" during psychiatric counseling

I thought a patients conversation with a psychiatrist was privileged.

[Piewhacket]

12. It is. Fully so in civilian courts, more limited (but applicable) in military courts.

The President determines the rules of evidence in military courts.
President Clinton adopted Mil.R.Evid. 513 on October 6, 1999.
Executive Order No. 13140, §2a, 64 Fed. Reg. 55116 (1999),
effective for "communications made after 1 November 1999."
64 Fed. Reg. 55120.

The Rule provides in pertinent part:

Rule 513. Psychotherapist-patient privilege
(a) General rule of privilege. A patient has a
privilege to refuse to disclose and to prevent
any other person from disclosing a confidential
communication made between the patient and a
psychotherapist or an assistant to the
psychotherapist, in a case arising under the
UCMJ, if such communication was made for the
purpose of facilitating diagnosis or treatment
of the patient’s mental or emotional condition.

Prior to 1999, there was no such privilege. This may explain
some of the posts here stating there is no privilege. They
should try to get out more often. (to check their facts).
Hey!

[EFerrari]

19. It is. n/t

[Bragi]

11. This started tragically, and won't end well for anyone

Part of the reason America is tanking globally is that it is acknowledged by many people outside the U.S. that America has become largely ungovernable, other than at gunpoint.

I predict that, because this guy survived the incident, its aftermath is going to rip the already-divided country in new and even more destructive ways than ever.

[amandabeech]

68. I think that your position will be a small minority.

For 80% of the population, a conviction with life without parole or the death penalty will pose no problems, and that will include most Dems.

At least IMHO.

My position is that this guy should not be out walking around any time soon, whether his problem is mental illness or religious nuttiness. He is not in the right frame of mine, so to speak.

[pleah]

13. I knew something was fishy about this whole thing.

And, it won't end well for anyone.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. But if we all just turn the page and look forward not back

then all is well, no matter what, according to the administration in charge for nearly a year now. War crimes?! Balderdash! Turn that page, keep looking the other way, I mean forward, look forward.

[paulsby]

28. are you familiar with aguilar spinelli?

i thought not. key in law enforcement investigation is a two pronged test for witness reliability

1) basis of knowledge
2) veracity of informant

hasan is pretty fricken weak on (2) especially in regards to war crimes. this is a guy who justified suicide bombers for pete's sake. that alone makes him suspect in accusing others of war crimes. he also murdered a dozen of his innocent coworkers and is a religiously motivated murderous piece of shit. thus, his accusations need to be taken with several lbs of salt

[Bluenorthwest]

30. so you think it is best to ignore war crimes and never investigate

or prosecute?
His alleged accusations, as yet unknown, are not the only evidence of wrong doing. My point is that letting criminals walk free tears at the fabric of our society.
My point was not about his witness, but about the blind eye turned by so many others. Are we clear about that now? My point would hold as true had Hasan died that day. He's not the point at all.

[paulsby]

31. i;'m not saying that

i'm saying that it's ACCUSATION of war crimes. accusation =/= war crimes. it equals an ACCUSATION of war crimes.

assuming that (1) anything he said about what his patients told him is even admissible in court (it wouldn't be in civilian court, i can't speak to UCMJ) (2) he would still be a religious nutcase with questionable credibility.

the military ignored all sorts of stuff in regards to hasan, most likely out of political correctness and fear of controversy. not surprising.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[sattahipdeep]

43. Are military contractors considered 'soldiers' and treated at this hospital?

From March to May this year, Major Hasan was sent back to work in an inpatient psychiatric ward at Walter Reed in what colleagues saw as a remedial stint. Lt. Eric Notkin, a nurse, often joined him on rounds, seeing many patients who had been evacuated from Iraq or Afghanistan after suicide threats or attempts.

“The worst we saw were the patients who had shot themselves in the head or face and survived,” Lieutenant Notkin said. “They’d be stabilized and come to us.”

....
Others argued that with the proper guidance, he could become not just a capable psychiatrist, but a valuable researcher for the Army, given his understanding of the pressures facing Muslim troops.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/15hasan.html?pagewanted=3&_r=1

[FarCenter]

44. In some of the PSTD cases, the patient probably is troubled by war crimes other US troops committed

Those who commit war crimes are unlikely to suffer any ill effects psychologically.

[sattahipdeep]

49. Inhumane acts. Who were they?

These people that "confessed"... were they ordered to do these things they 'confessed' to? By prosecuting these people would more come out about being ordered to do inhumane acts?

[boppers]

53. CNN's running a four night special... about *one* incident.

Where there is war, there are war crimes.

I'm guessing people, at this very moment, are digging into his papers, and finding the ugliness he was required to confront as part of his job.

If he was a caring, empathetic, humane, individual, he might have cracked, and been willing to sacrifice his own life, and many others, in an attempt to save thousands, or millions, of other lives.

Was Claus von Stauffenberg, a man who attempted the murder of the leader of his country, a hero, or a traitor?

This is the same general kind of question, about betraying one's "country" for a greater good. About killing a few to save many.

[sattahipdeep]

59. "This is gonna be ugly, 'cause it is."

Vilseck, Germany (CNN) -- U.S. soldiers interrogated by the Army in the 2007 murders of four Iraqi detainees blamed a military policy they said made it too hard to detain suspected insurgents, a CNN investigation has found.

Soldiers questioned in the killings said the sergeant in command of their detachment ordered the suspected insurgents killed because Army rules made it too difficult to hold them.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/17/army.tapes.canal.killings/index.html

[mrbarber]

63. So you are excusing the actions of Hasan.

Disgusting. No different than those who think the murder of Dr. Tiller was justified because it saved thousands of unborn children.

Except in that case it was only one murderer. In this it was 13 innocent killed, 14 if you count the unborn child who was gunned down.

[sattahipdeep]

66. This is unacceptable?

"When our sons and daughters put their lives on the line to defend the rest of us, the last thing they should fear is being attacked by one of our own."

In 2007, Harman said, only 181 out of 2,212 reports of military sexual assaults, or 8 percent, were referred to courts martial. By comparison, she said, 40 percent of those arrested in the civilian world on such charges are prosecuted.

But when it came time for the military to defend itself, the panel was told that the Pentagon's top official on sexual abuse, Dr. Kaye Whitley, was ordered not to show up despite a subpoena.

"I don't know what you're trying to cover up here, but we're not going to allow it," Rep. Henry Waxman, D-California, said to the Defense official who relayed the news of Whitley's no-show. "This is unacceptable."

Mary Lauterbach said her daughter filed a rape claim with the military against Marine Cpl. Cesar Laurean seven months before he was accused of killing her.

Lance Cpl. Maria Lauterbach said she was raped by a fellow Marine. A Marine has been charged in her death.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/31/military.sexabuse/index.html

[Solly Mack]

51. K&R

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sattahipdeep]

60. Fort Hood official said she had never received complaints

Fort Hood official said she had never received complaints about
Hasan's job performance. Col. Kimberly Kesling, deputy
commander of clinical services at the base's Darnall Army Medical
Center, also said he was a "hardworking, dedicated young man
who gave great care to his patients."

Other psychiatrists complained to superiors that Hasan's actions
violated doctor-patient confidentiality, Capt. Shannon Meehan told
The Dallas Morning News. :eyes:

....
"He was right on his authority to report it," said the ex-Marine, who
formerly served as a court-martial judge. The Army teaches all
service members that they have a duty to report evidence of war
crimes.

Senate leaders and several committee chairmen are scheduled to receive a classified briefing this morning, said Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

....
On Wednesday, Attorney General Eric Holder is expected to testify publicly before Leahy's committee.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/111709dntexshooter.3f2db30.html

[sattahipdeep]

61. It was a familiar trope of the Bush years

Other committee chairmen, all of them Democrats, have held off on launching inquiries, mindful of the Obama administration's requests that lawmakers slow down as the White House conducts its review. Some Republicans, particularly in the House, have essentially accused the White House of a cover-up.

Even Lieberman's friends can play it down the middle

Pet projects Hatch

Indeed, to this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.

Even Hatch can’t be blamed completely. The CIA, ever mindful of the need to justify its “mission,” had conclusive evidence by the mid-1980s of the deepening crisis of infrastructure within the Soviet Union. The CIA, as its deputy director Robert Gates acknowledged under congressional questioning in 1992, had decided to keep that evidence from President Reagan and his top advisors and instead continued to grossly exaggerate Soviet military and technological capabilities in its annual “Soviet Military Power” report right up to 1990.

Senate Homeland Security Hearing on Fort Hood Shootings
Thursday

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/11/19/HP/A/26172/Senate+Homeland+Security+Hearing+on+Fort+Hood+Shootings.aspx



Defense Dept. Briefing on Fort Hood Shooting
Thursday

http://www.c-span.org/Watch/Media/2009/11/19/HP/A/26243/Defense+Dept+Briefing+on+Fort+Hood+Shooting.aspx

And the answer that you're seeking
For the question that you found
Drives you further to confusion
As you lose your sense of ground

[jasi2006]

65. When we don't follow our own rules of war and hold no one accountable

for atrocities, this is what can and often does happen. That is why it was and is so important to be honest about Abu Gahriab and other shit we have done in the name of war.

[MetaTrope]

69. One wonders how many Steven Dale Greens he encountered in counseling

The government kept as tight a lid as it could on the Mahmudiyah atrocity, and it might never have come to light but for a "psychological health counseling session". Of course, most of the perpetrators of the rape and murder of a 14-year-old child and her family will be up for parole in a decade or two.

Probably won't be hearing much more of what horrors Hasan met with, anyway.

[sattahipdeep]

71. Yeah, who'd think? The Memory Scrub

HUTCHISON:
And I heard that he probably knew some of the people that he was shooting, but that's not confirmed.

Texas TV station KXXV reported that the gunman told a civilian as he passed that he was shooting only military men.

She said he targeted specific people as he stalked through a deployment center, two handguns blazing.

But here's the problem: there's far too much evidence out there in
the public record that contradicts our new Army-friendly version of
events, which implicates the exact opposite of
political-correctness. What this evidence shows is that if the Army
been even marginally politically-correct, or at the very least,
intelligent and reasonable, the massacre could have been avoided,
lives saved, and Maj. Hasan might have been discharged to freely
marry his online Burqa Queen. Instead, he faced a cold,
unresponsive and abusive Army bureaucracy which over time
drove Maj. Hasan to despair.

I've gone back through the record and collected the early accounts
that were more sympathetic to Maj. Hasan, and the point at which
those sympathetic details got scrubbed out of the narrative,
allowing the rightwing's Monty Python version to replace it. There
are some other surprising details I found, details which show even
more parallels to a classic going postal rampage shooting. First,
here are some of the most credible early sources which prove that
Maj. Hasan tried and failed to get the Army to relieve him. On
November 5th, I found these statements by U.S. Rep. Michael
McCaul, a Republican from Austin

http://www.alternet.org/rights/143964/the_memory_scrub_about_why_ft._hood_happened_is_almost_complete_..._if_it_weren%27t_for_archives?page=2

[Liberation Angel]

70. Will he invoke the defense doctine of "necessity"?

and claim that his attack was necessary to prevent the almost certain committing of further crimes by the soldiers he killed?

As awful as that sounds I can see him making that claim ...

[crim son]

72. Bottom line: war crimes being committed by our soldiers

have consequences that affect not merely the enemy. Another obvious lesson learned and, horribly, no doubt ignored.

[sattahipdeep]

73. Americans didn't really want to hear the depressing truth

The other key element in making this rather crude fact-scrubbing
work is that the audience--Americans--didn't really want to hear the
depressing truth of what this bastard went through before he went
postal. It's easier to make him out to be "evil" and a "terrorist" from
an entirely alien, bloodthirsty religion which bears no relation to our
civilized, peace-loving Judeo-Christianity.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/143964/the_memory_scrub_about_why_ft._hood_happened_is_almost_complete_..._if_it_weren%27t_for_archives?page=5

[crim son]

74. Yep. Defining the enemy: it's worked to build great wars since time began. n/t