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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 07:36 PM
Original message
Chávez refuses joint monitoring system on the border with Colombia
Source: El Universal

Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez rejected on Friday a "joint monitoring system" of the border with Colombia, which was recently proposed by Marco Aurelio García, the foreign policy adviser to the Brazilian Presidency. The Venezuelan leader said that his government would not allow the presence of "any supranational force" in the area.

"We protect our borders, such as Brazil protects its borders," Chávez said, recalling his reply to the adviser to Brazilian President Luis Inacio "Lula" da Silva, in a recent conversation in Caracas, AFP reported.

"We will not accept a supranational force protecting our borders. Colombia must take care of its border," Chávez said during the inauguration of the International Book Fair 2009.

García had suggested that Venezuela and Colombia could agree on a non-aggression pact as well as a "system for joint monitoring of their common border." Brazil could provide assistance through "technical means." Chávez insisted on saying that "the problem is not the border, but the military bases."

Read more: http://english.eluniversal.com/2009/11/13/en_pol_esp_chavez-refuses-joint_13A3050811.shtml
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Translation:
If I agreed to a joint monitoring system on the Colombian border I would have to invent a new external threat to blame all of our ills on.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Nope. Chavez is right in saying the problem is not the border but the bases
and all but our lapdogs agree with him.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Is it your opinion, then
That the US military, under the command of Barack Obama, is a threat to Venezuela?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is my opinion that we have no business collaborating with the Colombian government
when their own people are being murdered and burned in crematoria and the paramilitaries tied to their government are violating not only Venezuela's peace and security but also Ecuador's.

We have no business giving that government money, arms or any support whatsoever, let alone, be seen as agreeing with its behavior.

Is that as clear as possible?
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. It is estimated...
That we gave Colombia http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/aidtable.htm">$750 million in 2008. I agree with you: I don't think we should give money to any foreign country for any reason. However, that being said, their budget in 2008 was about https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/co.html">$83 billion. Do you think Colombian policy would have been any different in 2008 if we had not given them $750 million?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It would have to be different because you have to factor in the value
of being seen as "backed" by Washington. Not to mention, I have a hard time believing we have a good accounting of funds given to the Colombian government.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. What's the problem with Brazil's help in this case?
Sovereignty? I thought it was an interesting proposal...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Just as a practical matter the more bodies and entities you put on that border
the more likely it is that something will go wrong, not the other way around.

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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. You ignore that it has worked in the past
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. What past is that?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Sinai between Israel and Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Field_Mission

Some of us are old enough to remember it and how it helped lead to the Egypt-Israel peace treaty. The only successful one in the region recently.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. That was an expensive treaty, iirc. And we weren't trying to topple
the Egyptian government at the time. Or, were we? I honestly don't know.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. It lead to the Egypt-Israel peace treaty and at the time we were no friend to Egypt.
It cost lest that several days of war would have cost, not to mention the loss in human lives.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #55
72. So, you're not counting the losses inflicted by al Qaida
largely Egyptian led, among those losses?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. History says the US polcy in SA is interventionist
Presidents come and go, but our policy since Monroe has been rather constant.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
67. Is it your Opinion, then
that Barack Obama will be the president of the US forever? I was under the impression that US presidents are only in office 8 years or less.
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murdoch Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. The US sends $1 billion a year to prop Colombia up
The US sends $1 billion a year to prop the Colombian government up.

In 1996/1997, the government launched all these draconian plans to screw over the working people in the country and the country started heading towards ousting these top elements - peasants began having mass rallies, workers in cities had large-scale strikes, not to mention the FARC, which went back to guerrilla warfare after so many of its UP candidates had been slaughtered.

Now even the $1 billion a year isn't enough and the US has to start opening military bases to keep the scam government in power, not to mention act as a force against Indians, workers, the poors, basically anybody who doesn't want to bleed off these countries wealth for the benefit of the rich here, or a few white Spaniards down there.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Precisely. And the American public gets the skewed, right wing
version of this obscenity: Chavez is recalcitrant.
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YouTakeTheSkyway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
71. Clearly the border is a problem
Considering how it isn't being respected by the paramilitaries, by Leftist guerillas, or by drug runners.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Quite correct
Considering the internal problems he is having, he needs a bette noir to rail against to distract his populace.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
34. Considering that all of Colombia's neighbor's are in the same position
and that all but our lapdogs are taking the same position, you're full of it.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Chavez is right, this is horseshit.
Sovereign nations are not to be treated like delinquent children.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. But some of their leaders clearly are
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So what?
The US does not get "monitored" just because it elects morons like George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan. Bad leaders do not justify infringement of national sovereignty. You are sovereign or you are not, and if you are "monitored" then you are not.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Independent monitoring has worked previously and is certainly worth considering
by rational leaders. However in a region where the expectation seems to be bombastic machismo sound bites for local consumption, they may be hard to come by.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Name calling is not an argument.
Presidents of the USA are as good as anybody at "bombastic machismo sound bites for local consumption".

Would you think Chinese "monitoring" of US borders was a good thing? How do you feel about World Government, run by the Russians, or the Chinese? Independent monitoring has also fallen flat on its ass previously, and that is also a big "so what"?

If you want to beg the question that you claim to answer by pretending that national sovreignty is not the issue, at least be consistent and advocate outside monitoring of the US. We have just a boatload of problems that could use a bit or outside supervision.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Would you think Chinese "monitoring" of US borders was a good thing?"
Edited on Fri Nov-13-09 11:17 PM by ChangoLoa
Brazil is almost an ally to Venezuela. Comparisions are misguiding.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. If there was a chance that outside monitoring could stop imminent conflict
Edited on Fri Nov-13-09 11:28 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
along a US border I would give it serious consideration.

However, in this case the threat is imaginary, not real. Chavez is doing the saber rattling to distract his populace.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Not only a screen of smoke
He wants to take the governor of Tachira out of the game by linking him with the paramilitaries.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Right. Chavez and Brazil and Bolivia and Ecuador and Argentina
all the other nations in Latin America that have a small problem with a US build up.

Oopa, I meant, Chavez.

lol
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. An then there is the small matter of facts which are being ignored
The troop strength limit did not changes. Minor things like that.
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #31
44. Chavez is not yet a nation in Latin America (light comment)
Trying hard to become one by himself, though...
:dilemma:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. He is -- in the media. He's the Wizard of Oz.
He's a napalm bomb for ya baby, guaranteed to blow your mind. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qvae_EdVk
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
52. Well, then, I guess he doesn't need an outside monitoring force then, does he?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. LOL.
:thumbsup:
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. Perhaps he fears it since it would expose his current bette noir for what it is
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. So are you now claiming that the United States' new agreement with Colombia
is fictional?

That's rich.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. That's some bete noire!
DU'ers have discussed some incursions in the past. One of the events was serious enough that Uribe had to meet with Chavez and apologize to him in a meeting which lasted six hours.

Previous information discussed at D.U.:
The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

~snip~
A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.

What the real objectives were is now being discussed. One of them could have been to steal weapons so as to then attack the Miraflores presidential palace and President Chavez himself.

The government denounced the existence of an international plot in which the governments of the United States and of Colombian would be involved. U.S. Ambassador Shapiro denied that his country had any participation in the incident. And the Colombian president, for his part, solidarized himself with the Venezuelan government, affirming that he supports its actions against the members of the irregular Colombian military group, which then caused Chavez to publicly announce that he was convinced that President Alvaro Uribe did not have anything to do with the plot, even though he insisted on leveling charges against a Colombian general by the name of Carreño.

Even though the oppositional media conducted a big campaign to minimize the issue, trying to accuse the government of having organized a montage, so as to have a pretext for taking forceful measures that would impede a confrontation at the voting booth, every day more evidence surfaces that confirm the official version.

The Colombian attorney general's office has evidence that proves that paramilitary fighters were recruited and then transported to Venezuela and that extreme right-wing groups infiltrated intelligence services in the border town of Cúcuta. The proof was shown on the news program 'The Independent Network.' The program broadcast some intercepted recordings of paramilitary soldiers in Cúcuta, in which the operations they carried out in Venezuelan territory are reviewed.
More:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

~~~~~~~~~~~~

By the way, the previous head of Uribe's national security department, Jorge Noguera, who fled and was located by INTERPOL, and returned for trial, has ADMITTED recently he knew of this. It was discussed fully here, over and over.
President verbally attacks media for reporting allegations of criminal activity by intelligence agency

(HRW/IFEX) - The following is a Human Rights Watch press release:

Colombia: Uribe Must End Attacks on Media
Government Should Investigate Charges of Extrajudicial Executions, Fraud

(New York, April 17, 2006) - Instead of attacking the news media for reporting allegations of criminal activity in a Colombian intelligence agency, President Álvaro Uribe should ensure a full investigation of the charges, Human Rights Watch said today.

Over the last two weeks, major news media have extensively reported on allegations of paramilitary infiltration of the Colombian executive branch's intelligence agency (Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad, or DAS), targeted killings of labor union leaders and academics, and electoral fraud in the 2002 presidential elections. President Uribe has reacted by charging the news media with being dishonest and malicious, and with harming Colombian democratic institutions.

"Journalists are obliged to cover these alarming allegations of corruption and human rights abuses by the presidency's intelligence service," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "President Uribe's aggressive response raises suspicion about whether he actually wants the truth known, and has a chilling effect on the exercise of freedom of expression."

Uribe singled out individual commentators and journalists, including Alejandro Santos, who directs the prestigious newsmagazine Semana, and Ramiro Bejarano, a distinguished attorney appointed to a high-level commission established last year to investigate corruption in the DAS.

The allegations were made by a former senior official at the DAS, Rafael García, who is currently under investigation for allegedly laundering money and erasing the records of several people from the DAS database.

According to García's statements to prosecutors and journalists, for approximately three years the DAS worked in extremely close contact with several paramilitary groups, particularly the "Northern Block" led by paramilitary commander "Jorge 40." He claims that these links were established by Jorge Noguera, then director of the DAS and currently the Colombian Consul in Milan. Among García's many detailed allegations, which have received extensive coverage in Colombia, are:

- Extrajudicial executions of labor union leaders: García states that during this period, the DAS provided the paramilitaries with lists of labor union leaders and academics, many of whom were subsequently threatened or killed.

- Electoral fraud: According to García, Noguera collaborated with the paramilitaries to carry out massive electoral fraud when he was Uribe's campaign director in Magdalena state during the 2002 presidential elections. García alleges that the fraud resulted in 300,000 additional votes for Uribe. A similar plan, he claims, had also been implemented in congressional elections in several northern states. If proven, his allegations would confirm recent studies attributing highly unusual voting patterns in the 2002 congressional elections to electoral fraud.

- Political assassination in Venezuela: García recently said in an interview that the DAS collaborated with paramilitaries in a plot to assassinate several Venezuelan leaders, including President Hugo Chavez and a prosecutor, Danilo Anderson. More than 100 alleged paramilitaries were arrested near the Venezuelan capital of Caracas, and a few months later, Anderson was killed. Based on testimony by one of those arrested, Venezuelan authorities have charged former DAS director Noguera with knowledge of the alleged plot.
More:
http://www.ifex.org/colombia/2006/04/17/president_verbally_attacks_media/

http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_2.jpg http://www.embavenez-us.org.nyud.net:8090/uploaded_pics/158_1.jpg

Colombian paramilitaries captured at a ranch owned by Cuban right-wing “exile” Roberto Alonso

January 25, 2005

The Granda Kidnapping Explodes
The US / Colombia Plot Against Venezuela
By JAMES PETRAS

A major diplomatic and political conflict has exploded between Colombia and Venezuela after the revelation of a Colombian government covert operation in Venezuela, involving the recruitment of Venezuelan military and security officers in the kidnapping of a Colombian leftist leader. Following an investigation by the Venezuelan Ministry of Interior and reports and testimony from journalists and other knowledgeable political observers it was determined that the highest echelons of the Colombian government, including President Uribe, planned and executed this onslaught on Venezuelan sovereignty.

Once direct Colombian involvement was established, the Venezuelan government demanded a public apology from the Colombian government while seeking a diplomatic solution by blaming Colombian Presidential advisers. The Colombian regime took the offensive, launching an aggressive defense of its involvement in the violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and, beyond that, seeking to establish in advance, under the rationale of "national security" the legitimacy of future acts of aggression. As a result President Chavez has recalled the Venezuelan Ambassador from Bogota, suspended all state-to-state commercial and political agreements pending an official state apology. In response the US Government gave unconditional support to Colombian violation of Venezuelan sovereignty and urged the Uribe regime to push the conflict further. What began as a diplomatic conflict over a specific incident has turned into a major, defining crises in US and Latin American political relations with potentially explosive military, economic and political consequences for the entire region.

In justifying the kidnapping of Rodrigo Granda, the Colombian leftist leader, the Uribe regime has promulgated a new foreign policy doctrine which echoes that of the Bush Administration: the right of unilateral intervention in any country in which the Colombian government perceives or claims is harboring or providing refuge to political adversaries (which the regime labels as "terrorists") which might threaten the security of the state. The Uribe doctrine of unilateral intervention echoes the preventive war speech, enunciated in late 2001 by President Bush. Clearly Uribe's action and pronouncement is profoundly influenced by the dominance that Washington exercises over the Uribe regime's policies through its extended $3 billion dollar military aid program and deep penetration of the entire political-defense apparatus.

Uribe's offensive military doctrine involves several major policy propositions:
1.) The right to violate any country's sovereignty, including the use of force and violence, directly or in cooperation with local mercenaries.

2.) The right to recruit and subvert military and security officials to serve the interests of the Colombian state.

3.) The right to allocate funds to bounty hunters or "third parties" to engage in illegal violent acts within a target country.

4.) The assertion of the supremacy of Colombian laws, decrees and policies over and against the sovereign laws of the intervened country
More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/petras01252005.html

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/media/images/40133000/jpg/_40133929_paramilitaries_ap_203body.jpg

More captured Colombian paramilitaries
Published on Monday, May 17,
by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.
More:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
12.30pm update

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.

During his weekly radio and TV broadcast, Hello Mr President, Mr Chávez said that 53 paramilitary fighters were arrested at the farm early on Sunday and another 24 were picked up after fleeing into the countryside.

The country's security forces were uncovering additional clues and searching for more suspects, he said, adding that the arrests were proof of a conspiracy against his government involving Cuban and Venezuelan exiles in Florida and neighbouring Colombia.
More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/10/venezuela.jeremylennard

http://www.voltairenet.org.nyud.net:8090/IMG/jpg/paramilitares-copia-3.jpg

More captured Colombian paramilitaries
Three Venezuelan Officers and 27 Colombians Sentenced for Assassination Plot

A Venezuelan military court sentenced three Venezuelan military officers and 27 Colombians to two to nine years of prison for plotting an assault on Venezuela’s presidential palace and the assassination of President Hugo Chavez.Another 73 Colombians and 3 Venezuelan officers, who had also been suspected of participating in the plot, were freed after spending 17 months in prison.

118 Colombians were captured in May 2004 on a ranch just outside of Caracas, wearing Venezuelan military fatigues. Many of them appeared to be Colombian paramilitary fighters who had been recruited for a mission in Venezuela to attack the Chavez government and to kill the president. Six Venezuelan officers were also arrested in the course of the investigation.
Some of the Colombians were peasants who had been lured to come to Venezuela with the promise of jobs. Upon arriving, though, they were forced to engage in paramilitary training exercises and were forbidden to leave the ranch. 18 of the Colombians were released immediately after the capture and returned to Colombia because they were minors between 15 and 17 years. The ranch belongs to Roberto Alonso, a prominent Cuban-Venezuelan opposition activist. The highest level officer to be sentenced was General Ovidio Poggioli, who had been charged with military rebellion and was sentenced to 2 years and ten months of prison. The other two Venezuelan officers are Colonel Jesús Farias Rodríguez and Captain Rafael Farias Villasmil, who were each sentenced to nine years of prison. The 27 Colombians were each sentenced to six years prison.
When the group of Colombians were first arrested, many opposition leaders argued that the government had staged the arrests, in order to make the opposition look bad. They pointed out that no weapons were found with the paramilitary fighters and that the whole operation looked far too amateurish to have any chance of success. Also, it was argued that it is practically impossible to transport 120 Colombian paramilitary fighters undetected all the way from Colombia to Caracas, considering that there are numerous military control points along the way.
More:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article130297.html

More captured Colombian paramilitaries, and their temporary quarters at the ranch owned by Cuban "exile" Roberto Alonso, who promotes guarimba (violent opposition) against Hugo Chavez:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-baruta5.jpg http://www.venezuelanalysis.com.nyud.net:8090/images/2004/05/paramilitares-barracas.jpg

http://www.unobserver.com.nyud.net:8090/articleimages/Venezuela%20Colombian%20paramilitaries_02.jpg
~snip~
President Hugo Chavez Frias: Today's capture of Colombian paramilitaries is a blow against opposition terrorism May 9, 2004 VENPRES’ Carmen Ostia Pulgar reports: “The capture of 56 Colombian paramilitaries in Sabaneta, Baruta (Miranda) is a very important blow against terrorism, coups, and violence in the entire world,” said President Hugo Chavez Frias during his weekly TV program, “Alo Presidente.” Just a few hours after this group of presumed imported Colombian terrorists was apprehended, the Head of State questioned the silence of the private media, and their twisting of the facts with respect to information released about these events. According to Chavez, this is a part of the “blind elite’s” strategy to implement their plans. He warned that despite the attempts of the opposition to inundate Venezuela with violence, they will not succeed. The President’s message was transmitted in a simultaneous broadcast on all radio and TV channels because none of the private channels (with the exception of Globovision, which retransmitted VTV’s signal at certain moments) transmitted what happened this morning. For the last three months, the intelligence agencies conducted an investigation which, this morning between 2:30 and 3:00 a.m., resulted in the capture of an important Colombian paramilitary leader. The operation continued, and “before the sun rose, our patriotic men and women had captured 53 paramilitaries (now 56), all Colombians, dressed in Venezuelan military uniforms, with military haircuts, white and tricolor armbands (Venezuelan colors),” detailed President Chavez. “The captured foreign terrorist agents were found in a building belonging to Cuban Robert Alonso, known anti-Castro activist. We’re talking about the Cuban counterrevolution passing through North (as in Miami), South, and Central America.” Alonso was nicknamed “The Corporal” and was one of the brains behind “Plan Guarimba,” a violent far-right opposition strategy that was executed in communities and arterial highways in East Caracas from February 27 (when the G-15 Summit convened in the capital city) until March 3. “(Alonso) is closely associated with the so-called Democratic Coordinator (CD), and he was recently on the Globovision program, Grade 33,” Chavez added. According to security agency estimates, 130 Colombian paramilitaries entered Venezuela clandestinely. The President said that he gave the order to capture them by any means necessary in the shortest possible time. Chavez recognized the work done by the State Security & Political (DISIP) police, led by Corporal Miguel Rodriguez Torres; the Ministry of Interior & Justice (MIJ) headed by Lucas Rincon Romero; the National Guard; the Military Intelligence Directorate (DIM); the Ministry of Defense; and the Scientific, Penal & Criminal Investigations Corps (CICPC).
http://www.unobserver.com/printen.php?id=1657





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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
68. How about if
North Korea offered to help monitor the space between us and Cuba? Would that be a great deal for us? Granted this is not that, But how do they see us, and what have been our historical actions in that area?
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
35. We monitor China for nuclear emissions.
We have invited China and Russia to do the same thing here.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You are ignoring that it has worked in the past, specifically in the Middle East.
Brazil bringing it up was a good thing since it clearly shows who really doesn't want a solution
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Huh? What has 'worked' anywhere in the middle east?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. In the Sinai under the Ford administration.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. You cannot be serious
but then again, you keep posting this stuff over and over. If you consider the situation in Israel a success, go for it.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Quite serious. It was between Egypt and Israel. What else would you call it?
Edited on Sat Nov-14-09 03:49 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-16-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
73. There have been successes
It could be worse. There's no call to dismiss all of the forward steps.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. I send money every year to US agencies for monitoring.
I happen to think the Carter center does good election monitoring work.

As far as "sovereign", we need a better word for that, as Chavez is not a king, nor is Obama, and democracies don't have sovereign rights.

Also, just because a nation is being monitored doesn't mean that it isn't free to act in its own interests... unless one of those interests is to act without others knowing about the actions.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. This is a different kind of monitoring
Think sensors along the border. It worked well in Sinai, and is one of the things that created the environment that lead to the Egypt Israel peace treaty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Field_Mission
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. The term refers to the state, not to the leader. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. Chavez speaks for the state, no?
Is he subject to the will of congress?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #36
49. Come on, boppers.
:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
32. Really? And how do you make that determination?
I can't wait for you to lay it out for me.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Venezuela applies the same standard as the US to its national sovereignty.
In fact, the US is more covetous of its sovereignty than Venezuela. What's wrong with maintaining sole responsibility for one's own borders?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Anything to back up that assertion
Just curious, since I know of no metric that measures feeling about sovereignty
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. So what extra effort does Venezuela have to go to
for those little brown people to convince you they are serious about their sovereignty?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
41. Your racist approach is noted.
For the records I am browner than Chavez
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Chauvanism comes in all kinds of flavors. n/t
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. And your attempt to make this a racial issue is a very distasteful flavor
Edited on Sat Nov-14-09 03:53 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. You don't read much about Latin America, do you?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. Clearly I read and know enough about it not to throw a racial canard as you have done repeatedly
Edited on Sun Nov-15-09 01:56 AM by ProgressiveProfessor
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-15-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. It's a shame a dictionary didn't come with that user name. n/t
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Masters of War will harass Chavez until he either PRIVATIZES his oil OR
we get a Right Wing Thug Puppet to do so.

There's a lot of money to be made off of those OIL FIELDS. How dare Chavez keep it NATIONALIZED for the benefit of those worthless unwashed peasant natives. :sarcasm:
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ChangoLoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. ...Brazil?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-13-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Imho, it's even more simple.
How DARE this little guy who is brown and has kinky hair lead such a successful movement?

You know who will NEVER accept that.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. Your multiple fraudulent attempts to play the race card are noted. Very sleazy of you at best
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. The history of US in Latin America is a long racist and ongoing one.
If it freaks you out to hear that, you might ask yourself why.

"With righteous indignation, it will look across the seas and see individual capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries, and say: "This is not just." It will look at our alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America and say: "This is not just." The Western arrogance of feeling that it has everything to teach others and nothing to learn from them is not just. "
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Exactly the same now. No perceptible change. Damned sad. n/t
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Its his invoking the racial stereotypes that is disgusting and evidence of a lack of credible
argument.

Yes there is a history there, but does anyone seriously believe that under the current president we are going to intervene in Latin America? If so, I would like them to lay out the scenario. Also look who is doing the saber rattling here...its not the US or Columbia.
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. +1
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Oh, baloney. We already HAVE intervened in Latin America.
The last attempt on Morales happened on Obama's watch and the money tracks back to the State Department. The coup in Honduras has our finger prints all over it.

Racial stereotype, my abuela. We really need a reality check around here.

And yes, it was the United States that started this whole flap when they entered the new base agreement with Colombia.

Good grief. Hilary's State Department already went back on their word about not honoring a rigged election. And their nonstop support for a violent, repressive and racist coup is disgusting. One of the first things the Pinochettis thugs did was close down the Garifuna hospital. Guess who uses that hospital? Gratuitous racist thuggery.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. It seems impossible people wouldn't know more about the bloody history of US interevention by now!
It's not covered by US corporate media, but there ARE libraries, book stores, etc., etc., as well as COMMON SENSE.

Here's the first one I saw in a search for "United States interventions in Latin America"
Apparently there's more....

Results 1 - 10 of about 4,810,000 for United States interventions in Latin America. (0.16 seconds)

U.S. Interventions in Latin America
http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

This one doesn't go beyond l996, so a lot has happened since its publication date, but it's more than enough to educate "educators" one hopes.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. We funneled NED money to white separatists in Bolivia.
It doesn't get much more plain than that.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-14-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
50. !U go, Ugo!
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