Patrick Kennedy clashes with outspoken RI bishop

[WillParkinson]

Source: The Associated Press

Patrick Kennedy clashes with outspoken RI bishop

(Providence, RI) Thomas Tobin, the Roman Catholic bishop of Providence, has made a career out of putting politicians in his crosshairs, but his latest battle over abortion threatens to spiritually exile Rep. Patrick Kennedy, a son of the nation’s most famous Roman Catholic family.

Their feud over a proposal expanding the nation’s health insurance system has escalated to the point where Tobin has publicly questioned Kennedy’s faith and membership in the church and said he should not receive communion, the central sacrament in Catholic worship.

It’s an uncomfortable tangle of faith and politics for a congressman whose uncle John F. Kennedy was elected the first Roman Catholic president in 1960 after declaring to wary Protestants that he did not speak for his church on public matters, and that the church did not speak for him.

“I don’t think there’s any winner here,” said the Rev. Thomas Reese, a church observer and senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University. “I think this is the kind of thing that would be better discussed between a member of Congress and his bishop behind closed doors.”

http://www.365gay.com/news/patrick-kennedy-clashes-with-outspoken-ri-bishop/

Read more: http://www.365gay.com/news/patrick-kennedy-clashes-with-outspoken-ri-bishop/

[hobbit709]

1. So Tobin is issuing Fatwas?

[h9socialist]

16. Well said . . .

. . . next they'll be declaring Jihads against teenage masturbation!

[edwardian]

52. Got to prevent that!

Hell, stop them from in utero masturbation! Dirty little things touching themselves inside Mommy's sacred womb! Do I sound Catholic yet? I feel really goofy!/@#

[myrna minx]

41. .

:thumbsup:

[polichick]

2. When are Catholics gonna wise up and dump that corrupt institution?? nt

[loudsue]

5. When people world wide start wising up to what churches/religions are doing

to their governments. The good and charitable things that churches do can continue under a different organizational structure, but the churches themselves are not really used for "worship" of their deities, for the most part. Not in today's world.

[polichick]

9. "The good and charitable things" don't come close to all the destruction...

I'd love to see people all over the world wake up to corrupt, manipulative sociopaths who pass as ministers, bishops and other snake oil salesmen. The world would be a better place without any of the major religions imo.

[Iowa]

11. Charitable work done by the Catholic Church doesn't amount to squat...

I worked for over 30 years with people who were down and out (now retired), and I can tell you that the Catholic Church was NOT a player. They are invisible. Professionals working on the front lines know this. All the heavy lifting is done by professionals in government agencies (which was my role) and private non-profits paid by government agencies. Approach any priest and ask him for the names of the real players when it comes to the needs of people in his community. You'll get a blank stare - or the name of some do-nothing church social committee that plans coffee and donuts after Mass on Sunday. He won't be able to provide names because his church isn't a player; he simply has no clue.

My point is this: When you say that the "good and charitable things that churches do can continue under a different organizational structure", you're giving the church far too much credit. 99.999999% of those good things are ALREADY being done under a different organizational structure... they are being done by our government and the non-profits our government is hiring. If the Catholic Church stopped doing all of its charitable work tomorrow, very few would even notice. They do just barely enough to prevent guys like me from accusing them of doing absolutely zero. But it's damned close to zero, and in many communities, it is zero.

[southernyankeebelle]

26. I will always be a catholic. But I don't go to church any longer and I don't give them my

money. When I do go to mass I try to attend a church on a military base because I don't have to give them a monthly envelops to be a member of their church. I stopped giving my money to the church because they get to involved with politics. So why bother. I can pray at home and give money to my local community and not to my church or any other church.

[Progservative_n_SC]

27. Just a question

The church you attended required you to give money to be a member? Is that standard practice in the Catholic church?

[defendandprotect]

33. I think some of the churches -- not just Catholic -- were trying to move to ...

monthy commitments -- and maybe even credit card style deductions?

Like Sears Roebuck and buying a washing machine on time --

this way you buy your salvation --



or the churches, depending on how you look at it!!!

[Progservative_n_SC]

37. I have seen something similiar in some churches

that I provided technical computer support for. Everything from "Hope and Praise" Donations at the front door, Love Offering concerts (still have WTF moments when I see churches holding concerts and such like some religious Convention Center) to churches that will give you an itemized print out at the end of the year for tax purposes. I just never understood it. Not coming from a background that stressed 'tithes' and such things I just find it hard to believe the money extraction some churches practice.

[defendandprotect]

39. .... and the pedophile lawsuits are also expensive !!!

In fact, the Catholic Church is being investigated because there's some

suspicion that they used "faith-based" religious organization TAXPAYER $$$

to pay those lawsuits!!

Must be a big hole in the Vatican's budget somewhere???

What I see is extremely high priced real estate wherever they are -- and

a princely palace of a Vatican!!!

[Progservative_n_SC]

40. Hadn't heard about the tax payer money being used

Though considering how much tax payer money has been flat out given to any organization that has asked (except to those who sent the money in the first place) I shouldn't be surprised.

I guess it is just a different background for me...no real mega-churches, conventions, or church government. Those like the Catholic Church which have a very rigid and expansive hierarchy might as well be on another planet run by aliens because I never could find where that much top down organization was ever mentioned by Jesus in any of his teachings.

[defendandprotect]

48. I've just tried to pull up an article on it -- think it was sometime in last two months or so . . .

I can find my comments on it -- but not the actual article.

I think it was one of those articles I didn't post because I thought someone here

would pick it up -- and then that didn't happen.

So -- you have to take it for now as "I think I recall" . . .

[defendandprotect]

34. Why would you still identify . . ..

as a "Catholic" . . . especially if you're a female?

Vatican doesn't even acknowledge your full personhood as it acknowledges

the full personhood of males?!?!

It's also recognized not only for it's political intrigues -- like campaigning

against ERA with tax-exempt dollars -- but also for its "Pro-Life" murder and

its preaching of intolerance for homosexuals!!

????????

[lumpy]

47. You don't need to be a member of a church to be a good

Christian or any other religion. The tools are readily available to self-teach by using your own brain instead of someone elses. Most churches require pledging to their particular concepts and interpretations as a form of control.

[defendandprotect]

32. ...Especially when they're now getting paid for it with our tax dollars . . .!!!

[h9socialist]

17. When?

I can foresee on two circumstances:

(1) When hypocrisy is no longer confused with morality. (Fat chance).

(2) When the beer tap breaks at the K-of-C. (Not likely).

[TheCML]

28. im not a psychic

But I predict around the year 1517.

[boppers]

42. Nailed it. +95

:evilgrin:

[marshall]

46. Why are any of the Kennedys still Catholic???

They ought to lead the way out of the outdated institution.

[defendandprotect]

49. True . . . look at the largest two issues . .. war on nature and war on women . . .

The Vatican still does not acknowledge the full personhood of females as it

acknowledges the full personhood of males --

Why would any family involve their daughters -- or sons -- in any such teachings?????

PLUS we still have the licenses to exploit nature which being pushed --

"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- two suicidal threats to humanity

and the planet!!

Needless to say, those licenses have also involved exploitation of not only nature --

natural resources, animal-life -- but even other human beings according to various myths

of inferiority, i.e., women, Africans, Native Americans, Homosexuals, Jews, etal --

[pscot]

3. Too many cosmic gunslingers

trying to make their bones by taking on politicians.

[CatholicEdHead]

4. Kennedy bashing will get the bishop ahead in some circles

The health care bill passed with the best compromise possible, so the Bishop should settle down.

[Johnboi70]

6. I hope more Kennedy's get in on this action.

I can't imagine a better group of advocates and. frankly, the Catholic Church has been playing politics for too long unchallenged.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. And I remember when John F. Kennedy talked in detail about the separation of church and

state. Maybe the Bishop should read this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16920600

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute, where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote; where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference; and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him."

[Swede Atlanta]

8. I'm okay with this if.........

As much as I find the family planning policies of the Catholic Church inconsistent with God giving the Earth to us in trust, they are a private religious organization.

I would be conceptually okay with this if the Catholic bishops also openly criticized or threatened to withhold communion from church members who supported capital punishment, supported war, did nothing/little or opposed measures intended to reduce poverty, improve health, save the environment and actively support the pre-natal and post-natal care of newborns.

[defendandprotect]

35. We should all be telling that to the Rev. Tobin ... in Rhode Island ... !!!

Methinks!

[No Elephants]

44. I agree to a point, but I am not sure I'd be okay with this in any event.

As far as I can tell, the Bible tells me how I am supposed to live. It does not require me to tell anyone else how to live. It certainly does not require me to demand that my interpretation of Biblical dictates become the secular law of my country.

If the Bishop does not believe in abortion or same gender marriage, then he should not have an abortion or marry a man. If he feels being a bishop in his religion requires him to teach against those things from the pulpit, fine. Beyond that, he crosses a line, IMO. The Church does not get a religious exemption for public castigation and threatening of Democratic politicians who vote pro-life.

[Bitwit1234]

10. This administraton can put a stop to this

the church has no business and it is illegal to meddle in politics. An announcement must be made, that any church that tries to influence political actions would be taken off the tax free status.

THAT OUGHT TO CLEAR IT UP ONCE AND FOR ALL. Don't you think.

[TheCML]

29. Sounds great.

But dont expect to have a chance at ever getting elected again.

[No Elephants]

45. Regrettably, the bishop did nothing illegal.

[bulloney]

12. When will this nation's Catholic bishops crack down on all of the Catholic Republicans

who blindly supported the invasion of Iraq? The death penalty? Policies that contribute to the concentration of wealth?

The Catholic church has come out against these and other policies. Yet, they choose abortion, I think, because the Catholic hierarchy is predominantly conservative Republican and abortion is the issue they can use to polarize and shame their congregation into voting Republican.

[h9socialist]

14. You obviously don't understand . . .

. . . that "pro-life" only means BEFORE you pull 'em out of the womb. After that, the vast majority of senseless ways to die have useful applications to the hierarchy. In particular they like starving babies because it saves the rich from having to pay taxes to support the welfare state. Letting young people go off to war is another favorite. Have you ever noticed that the Church never denies Communion to Neocons, Pro-War Hawks, and supporters of capital punishment?

[bertman]

19. I haven't seen your posts before, h9socialist. But, welcome to DU. And keep the posts coming.

[h9socialist]

25. Thank you for the generous welcome . . .

. . . I'll try to keep 'em coming!

[bulloney]

20. That's my point.

As a lifelong Catholic who has ancestors who started a Catholic parish in America when they arrived in this country, I'm getting very cynical and angry at the church and its hierarchy. The worst part is that there are so many Catholics in our community who blindly follow everything the church tells them to do. There comes a point where you have to take a step back, see the inconsistencies of the church and its actions and question authority.

[h9socialist]

23. Yeah . . .

. . . Believe me, I hear you!

[defendandprotect]

36. Great post . .. !!!

[2Design]

15. abortion = less little catholics

[h9socialist]

50. It's not the "little Catholics" I mind so much . . .

. . . as that collection of pompous blue-balled old farts in the Vatican . . . and their Kentucky-fried allies in the churches (protestant and Catholic) over here. Like it or not, Earl Butz wasn't totally off-base when he said "Hey! Pope-ah no play-ah da game, Pope-ah no make-ah da rules!" As a Catholic myself, I appreciate that sentiment!"

[Scairp]

13. Jesus-God

Not again. What is wrong with these asshole priests? High profile members of the church are hardly ever denied the eucharist unless they actually do something, like get divorced and remarry without getting an annulment. Even stone cold murderers can go to confession, ask for and receive absolution and also still receive communion. This is the same white noise you heard during Kerry's presidential campaign and so far as I know it came to nothing. Remember when that bag of shit Guiliani got up to receive communion from some very famous visiting cardinal, or somebody, and he got it, and he IS excommunicated for being on his third or fourth wife without getting all the other marriages annulled. Or am I wrong? Some canon law expert will probably weigh in here and clear all this up.

[sallyseven]

18. Raymond Patricia was head of the Marfia In RI

When he died he had a big Mass and was buried in a Catholic Cemetery with a very large group of people paying homage about 60 cars full of people. The church is so full of bs. He should shut his mouth. He is a show off. I never regret leaving the church.

[bulloney]

22. Patricia probably gave a boatload of money to his church. That always makes them look the other way

[CanonRay]

43. I grew up with this crap in Chicago

Every summer, we'd have a Feast (of our Lady of Mt. Carmel) day, and they would have a procession with a statue of some saint or other, and the big mafia goons would stick $100 bills on the statue. It was disgusting. One of the many reasons I'm no longer a Catholic.

[benld74]

21. If I was Him,,,

and I am not
But I am Catholic
AND I agree wholeheartly with Kennedy

I would rather take my chances after I die
than to allow my religion to dictate what is right or wrong in my heart.

[DeSwiss]

24. Cut your ties Patrick.....

...this institution of Pedophile Protectors is on its way down and out.

- And none too soon.



K&R

[Fearless]

30. Why should they discuss anything at all... separation of church and state.

[defendandprotect]

31. Shouldn't the Rev. Tobin be condemning "Pro-Life" murderers of doctors?????

Maybe calling for an end to the two 8 year wars?

Drawing attention to the children of Iraq suffering from Depleted Uranium?

Maybe moving some of the Vatican $$$$$$$$$ into aiding the homeless?

The immorality of this church is staggering -- !!!

[defendandprotect]

38. Contact Bishop Thomas J. Tobin . . . ???

Office of the Bishop
One Cathedral Square
Providence, RI 02903

or

Diocese of Providence - 401/278-4500

or

Office of Communications - 401/278-4600
[e-mail]

[TomCADem]

51. Is Bishop Tobin Arguing That Catholic Politicians Must Follow The Pope?

Who knew that a Catholic Bishop would attempt to disqualify Catholic politicians from holding office by arguing that they can't be Catholic without endorsing Roman Catholic positions on legislation.