Honduras' attorney general escapes unharmed after gunmen open fire on his convoy

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Honduras' attorney general escapes unharmed after gunmen open fire on his convoy
OLGA R. RODRIGUEZ
Associated Press Writer
8:23 p.m. EST, November 8, 2009

TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (AP) — Gunmen ambushed a convoy carrying Honduras' top prosecutor, but neither he nor his bodyguards were harmed, police said Sunday.

Police spokesman Orlin Cerrato said Attorney General Luis Alberto Rubi was riding on a northern highway when assailants opened fire Saturday night. Cerrato said no one was hurt. One car was damaged.

He did not give a motive for the attack or say whether it was related to Honduras' four-month political crisis. But he speculated the attack could be an attempt to "provoke unease in the country."

After the June coup, it was Rubi who filed criminal charges against ousted President Manuel Zelaya.



Read more: http://www.courant.com/news/nation-world/sns-ap-lt-honduras-violence,0,4617927.story

[Jack Rabbit]

1. Clarification

This wasn't the real Atty General. This was the junta's Atty General.

[boppers]

3. It's a junta, now...

Led by lawyers, the congress, the supreme court... is there anybody *not* in on this plot?

[ronnie624]

4. A majority of Hondurans are not in on it if the polls are to be believed.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4117691>

[boppers]

7. 'Well, aside from the whole "following laws" thing.... Nixon rocked'?

...Is that really the argument going on there?

That a leader can commit crimes, so long as they're a popular leader?

That's definitely direct democracy at its best, and worst, which is why representative democracy seems to have won out in so many nations... no man is above the law, and to keep leaders in check, a body elected by the people is entitled to have equal power as an executive, also elected by the people.

[Judi Lynn]

10. You would only benefit by spending a lot of SERIOUS time doing your homework

on Latin America, and US interventions in Latin America, overt, covert.

If you have time to post, you have time to spend looking for the facts, so when you attempt to discuss the subjects with DU'ers who DO know what they're talking about, you will be speaking in terms connected to reality.

Until you do make the effort, you're simply speaking from an alternative universe. Learn to question what you believe, you'll never be free if you simply swallow things you hear, and never invest your own time and effort in looking for the truth, just as most people do who hope to understand a subject FIRST before discussing it. It's the only honest way to approach things.

[boppers]

12. LOL, you have no idea what I know.

Thanks for the patronizing pat-on-the-head though.

It shall give me endless giggles.

[Mudoria]

22. It's really about all she has

Her facts are links that support her biases, anything else is non-factual or propaganda against her glorious heroes.

[EFerrari]

30. Well, no. boppers has been bringing the same argument

which has repeatedly been shown to misrepresent the legal process in Honduras.

The Court did not oust Zelaya, the Congress did. And the Congress has no authority under their fucked up constitution to do any such.

Judi Lynn is right. boppers' time would be better spent.

[boppers]

40. *sigh*

You seem to know little about the honduran legal process.

The attorney general brought the arrest warrents before the courts.
The courts ordered the military to arrest Zelaya.
The military arrested him, and exiled(!) him.
Congress, on the basis of the president being under suspicion of crime, has the option to remove him from office, but has not yet done so.

Read up:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8345457.stm

[WriteDown]

16. Or by traveling there or at least learning Spanish..

"Until you do make the effort, you're simply speaking from an alternative universe." Or at least the "Never Ending Story."

[edwardian]

15. Care to specify

the "leaders" crime? Or are you referring to the golpistas? If you mean Zelaya, you don't know as much as you pretend. JudiLynn is a veritable beacon of truth on matters latin America. You sound like a dilettante.



edited for spelling...

[boppers]

26. See #24 eom

[ronnie624]

19. Crimes?

If conducting a poll to determine the will of the electorate really is illegal in Honduras, then it's a law that definitely needs to be challenged. The only purpose to such a law would be to suppress knowledge and understanding of the will of the people, which is inconsistent with genuine democracy, representative or otherwise.

And what part of Honduran law allows for a popular, democratically elected president to be violently kidnapped and exiled from his country? I'll bet you can't show it to me. As a matter of fact, I would bet there are very specific laws against it in Honduras. It is definitely a violation of international law as per the UN Charter.

[L. Coyote]

20. Deposing a citizen from the country is against the Constitution in Honduras

The Constitution guarantees any person who is a citizen cannot be forced out of the country.

[ronnie624]

21. Thanks. I was certain I had read that it is a violation of the Honduran constitution.

It's interesting how the "rule of law" is so important to some when it comes to relatively trivial matters like conducting a "referendum" on the opinion of the electorate on a particular issue, but not so important when it regards a truly serious matter, like the violent overthrow of a democratic government. Truly a strange disconnect, there.

[boppers]

24. Crimes so far:

1. Refusing to sign, or veto, laws enacted by congress
2. Creating illegal private "elections", in collaboration with foreign governments
3. Attempting to subvert the existing constitution
4. Firing military officers for not enabling illegal elections
5. Exiling an elected leader (arrest, and removal from office, would be legal, exile would not be)

Neither side can claim that they were innocent of illegal action, crimes have been committed, but it's not like Zelaya was an innocent man whisked away in the middle of the night without warning, as this crisis had been building for many months... since January, IIRC, when Zelaya tried to replace the supreme court without congressional approval (their supreme court is not life term, it's appointed).

[ronnie624]

31. The claims in your post are pure fabrication,

which is why you have not fleshed your accusations out with any facts, details or links to information.

Zelaya was ousted by the Honduran oligarchy in order to prevent reform to the government. Knowledge is power, and clearly the elites feared the will of the electorate becoming widely known. That sort of knowledge might lead to reform that could threaten their disproportionate share of wealth and political power, which is why they reacted so violently to what amounted to little more than a government sponsored opinion survey. I have not yet seen a convincing argument for the claim that the so called "referendum" was in fact illegal.

But kidnapping and exiling the president is definitely a violation of Honduran law. It is also a violation of international law, as per the UN Charter which was signed by the Honduran government.

[boppers]

32. "kidnapping" (via a warranted arrest) is totally legal.

....exile, much less so.

Zelaya is facing 18 criminal charges so far. (Would you like the charges detailed?)

As far as why the referendum was illegal, imagine Bush ordering the US military to add a national poll question about throwing out the US constitution, and then firing any military leader who did not comply.

That's basically what happened.

Zelaya tried to subvert congress, and the courts, and use the military to overthrow a constitutional democracy. His coup attempt was met with the full force of law.

Then, when he was caught, he claimed a "coup" was responsible for his ouster, and that's when it started making international news.

[ronnie624]

34. Zelaya's real "crimes"

were raising the minimum wage, and his probing of the feasibility of reforming the corruption ridden Honduran government. We both know that. Talk of criminal charges and "throwing out" the constitution are just pure pretext and hyperbole. If the coup regime had intended on pressing charges they would not have kidnapped and exiled him. Clearly they realize they are on shaky legal ground, and they do not want a public airing of the facts.

[boppers]

38. They charges were brought before the arrest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8345457.stm

[L. Coyote]

35. What a crock! Now boppers is just making up pure Bullshit!

:rofl: Zelaya tried to ... to overthrow a constitutional democracy :rofl:

This so reminds me of Bush-speak and freeper-talk "Up is down....truth is false."

FCS, Zelaya is the democratically-elected President of the once-democratic nation of Honduras.
His removal ended Honduran democracy and replaced it with a fascist GOPista junta.

[boppers]

39. Removal from office is part of a democratic process.

Nobody has a "right" to stay in power in a democracy, such a thing is for monarchies and dictatorships. That being said, due process should be part of the removal, and their congress (as per the agreement) should probably go ahead and finish the impeachment, or re-instate him. I posted this up thread, but in case you don't re-read threads:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8345457.stm

[L. Coyote]

43. Tell it to the coup, instead of ignoring your own falsehood.

You might also want to read the Honduras Constitution (I doubt you even are able to read Spanish, or you would know the facts).

[boppers]

44. I've been reading it. My Spanish is poor, so I cross reference with english.

What falsehood?

[roody]

6. It has been a junta since June 28.

[boppers]

9. Not January, when the Supreme Court (which threw him out) was nominated?

Did you miss that particular Honduran constitutional crisis? I did.

Turns out that this has been a long time coming.

[L. Coyote]

18. The majority of the People of Honduras are not in on the plot, of course. The Junta

is the group that plotted the coup, overthrowing the democratic order and exiling the President.
It is very much a junta, of the class of privileged oligarchs against the populace.
That's the history of Honduras in a nutshell since the Spanish were overthrown.

[DissedByBush]

17. It's the real attorney general

He was in office before the government ousted Zelaya. He's not some puppet they installed later.

He was the one who warned Zelaya he would file criminal charges if Zelaya continued with the illegal referendum.

Good enough reason for Zelaya's people to kill him.

[boppers]

25. Thanks for the reminder. It's a different system than ours.

Their AG is not somebody appointed by the president, it's an independent office.

[bertman]

2. Gunmen open fire yet no one is hurt. Sounds like a propaganda ploy to me.

[roody]

5. I hope the resistance remains nonviolent.

[boppers]

27. Bombings and shootings so far.

Non-violence, not so much, more like "less violent than a worst case scanario".

[roody]

33. Are you going to Honduras?

[boppers]

42. Going? I don't have any plans to vacation or upcoming gigs there, no.

Something about shootings, bombings, riots, and strikes makes it a bit non-appealing.

[roody]

45. I will be going soon because I want to know

for myself what is going on. If I could not go, I certainly would not trust the MSM to tell me what is happening.

[boppers]

46. Good on ya, then!

I don't have the temperament for it, but I think it's *vital* to have multiple differing voices and perspectives, even when I disagree with them.

[Judi Lynn]

37. Related article: The Power of Nonviolent Action in Honduras

Published on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 by YES! Magazine
The Power of Nonviolent Action in Honduras

The massive nonviolent movement that put pressure on the coup government may be only the first chapter of an important and prolonged struggle for justice in one of Latin America’s poorest and most inequitable countries.
by Stephen Zunes

The decision by Honduran coup leader Roberto Micheletti to renege on his October 30 agreement to allow democratically-elected president Manuel Zelaya to return to power was a severe blow to pro-democracy forces who have been struggling against the illegitimate regime since it seized power four months ago. The disappointment has been compounded by the Obama administration's apparent willingness-in a break with Latin American leaders and much of the rest of the international community-to recognize the forthcoming presidential elections being held under the de facto government's repressive rule.

Still, there are reasons to hope that democracy can be restored to this Central American nation.

The primary reason the de facto government was willing to negotiate at all was the ongoing nonviolent resistance campaign by Honduran pro-democracy forces. The role of popular nonviolent action has not been as massive, dramatic, or strategically sophisticated as the movements that have overthrown some other autocratic regimes in recent decades. There were no scenes of hundreds of thousands of people filling the streets and completely shutting down state functions, as there were in the people power movements that brought down Marcos in the Philippines or Milosevic in Serbia.

Nevertheless, the nonviolent struggle has been of critical importance.



The sustained nonviolent resistance movement has prevented the provisional government, which was formed after the June 28 coup, from establishing a sense of normalcy. What the movement has lacked in well-organized, strategic focus, has been made up for with feisty and determined acts of resistance that have forced the provisional government into clumsy but ultimately futile efforts at repression-exposing the pretense of the junta's supposed good intentions.

Sometimes a resistance movement just has to stay alive to make its point. Day after day, thousands of Hondurans from all walks of life have gathered in the streets of Tegucigalpa and elsewhere, demanding the restoration of their democratically-elected government. Every day they have been met by tear gas and truncheons. Over a dozen pro-democracy activists were murdered, but rather than let these assassinations frighten people into submission, the opposition turned the martyrs' funerals into political rallies. Their persistence gradually has torn away the outlaw regime's claims of legitimacy. Rather than establishing themselves as a legitimate government, de facto president Micheletti and his allied military officers have been made to look like little more than a gang of thugs who took over an Old West town and threw out the sheriff.

Since the return of the exiled President Zelaya to Tegucigalpa (he successfully sought refuge in the Brazilian embassy), the pro-democracy movement has surged. Micheletti and his henchman initially panicked-suspending basic civil liberties, shutting down opposition radio and television stations, and declaring a 24-hour curfew. This disruption caused the business community's support for the de facto government to wane; the Obama State Department, which had been somewhat timid in pressing the junta up to that point, began to push harder for a deal.



It has been a great credit to the pro-democracy forces that, save for occasional small-scale rioting, the movement has largely maintained its nonviolent discipline. It would have been easy to launch a guerrilla war. Much of Honduras consists of farming and ranching country where many people own guns. The neighboring countries of El Salvador, Guatemala, and Nicaragua have experienced bloody revolutionary struggles in recent decades. Yet, despite serious provocations by police and soldiers loyal to the provisional government, the movement has recognized that armed resistance would have been utterly futile and counter-productive. Indeed, they recognize that their greatest strength is in maintaining their commitment to nonviolence.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/11/10-9

[David__77]

8. Best wishes to the Honduran resistance fighters.

I hope that all those fighters waging struggle with the means at their disposal remain safe and win victory.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Same here. They've made the committment to peaceful resistance.

They will never turn back on that.

It's a valid assumption this is a desperate plea for sympathy from the little pudgy, very white rich coup guys who didn't expect to have this much trouble stealing the government away from the democratically elected President who had determined to help the exploited poor of Honduras.

You can see right through these idiots.

As the rallying song of the resistance says, "They fear us because we are not afraid."

It's true. How many of the fools hiding inside the Presidential palace would have the courage to live through what the dissidents are experiencing 24/7 at the hands of the vicious golpistas.

[David__77]

13. They certainly should not unilaterally constrain themselves.

The people of Honduras have the right to resist, including through force of arms. That is a sovereign right.

There are many admirable examples of armed resistance, including the ANC, SWAPO, FMLN, FSLN, FPMR, etc...

[Alamuti Lotus]

14. and the junta already has blood on its hands

There have been several documented incidents of nonviolent protestors being shot and killed. Armed resistance is a valid option, particularly in light of the fact that the PTB wish to allow the coup plotters to skate without consequence: this must be strongly demonstrated to be unacceptable in principle, else it will repeat in nearby areas.

[L. Coyote]

28. They certainly should not give away the high moral ground and

lower themselves to the murderous golpistas.

[David__77]

29. Just resistance cannot be equated with fascist oppression.

The ANC's armed struggle, which certainly resulted in the deaths of people, was, for instance, just and correct and morally right. The apartheid regime was, on the other hand, immoral and criminal. The same is true in all cases of oppressed peoples fighting for liberation.

[Judi Lynn]

23. Honduras: Stop Blocking Human Rights Inquiries

Honduras: Stop Blocking Human Rights Inquiries
Human Rights Watch
October 19, 2009

The international community should strongly back the efforts of prosecutors in the human rights unit of the Honduras Attorney General's office to investigate army and police abuses in Honduras and to overturn a decree by the de facto government that severely restricts freedoms of speech and assembly, Human Rights Watch said.

The organization also called on the international community to oppose any amnesty for human rights violations as part of the transition back to democratic rule. Deposed President Manuel Zelaya and the de facto government of Honduras are now engaged in negotiations about such a transition, and have announced that an agreement may be imminent.

Since the military ousted Zelaya on June 28, the small human rights unit of the Office of the Attorney General has begun investigations into numerous cases of killings, alleged excessive use of force by security officials, and illegal and arbitrary detentions. The unit has also filed motions objecting to a decree limiting freedoms of the press and assembly, which the de facto government has used to bar two media outlets from broadcasting. But the unit has met with resistance from their superiors in the Attorney General's Office as well as acts of obstruction, including direct threats, from members of the armed forces.

"If anyone questions the damage that the de facto government has done to Honduras's democratic institutions it's clearly illustrated by these cases," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "And by obstructing the investigations, the public security forces are thumbing their noses at the rule of law."

Human Rights Watch representatives visited Honduras this month and documented the serious obstacles human rights unit prosecutors have been facing in carrying out their investigations. In several cases the security forces have taken actions that have obstructed investigations.

On Sept. 30, two members of the human rights unit went to an army battalion headquarters as part of their investigation into the forced closing of two media outlets on Sept. 28. The army refused to let them enter or to do an inventory of the equipment army personnel had confiscated from the outlets. The prosecutors have raised the issue with their superiors in the Attorney General's Office, and are preparing a motion against the officers who barred their entry, but they have yet to obtain access to the battalion headquarters. On numerous occasions, security forces have denied the head of the human rights unit, Sandra Ponce, access to media outlets that they have occupied.

Army members involved in investigations have refused to comply with legally mandated time limits to respond to inquiries, telling prosecutors that they are too busy. Prosecutors from the human rights unit say police and military personnel verbally abuse them, including making direct threats such as, "I'm going to shoot you" during protest marches or while they are investigating alleged abuses following the marches.

In early July, during an investigation into the military shutdown of Radio Progreso, a radio station in Tegucigalpa that was occupied by the army on June 28, one army officer told a member of the human rights unit, "I wish I were in the Cold War, the days of Pinochet, the days when you could just disappear (someone)". The prosecutor interpreted this as a direct threat.

In some cases, prosecutors also have faced difficulties in conducting investigations due to decisions by their superiors in the Office of the Attorney General.

For example, prosecutors investigating the death of Isis Obed Murillo, a 19-year-old shot during demonstrations outside Tegucigalpa's airport on July 5, say their superiors have asked for a new round of ballistics tests, after the first tests demonstrated that the shots that killed Obed Murillo came from an area on the runway where army troops were stationed. Prosecutors had also found over 150 shell casings matching the type of ammunition that the army used that day. The unit's findings contradicted not only the army's claims but also those of the government's human rights ombudsman, Ramón Custodio, who said the army only used rubber bullets during the demonstration. In a July 8 news release, Human Rights Watch pointed out that even rubber bullets can have lethal force and should not have been used, but that in any case the visual evidence suggested that some of the soldiers were using live ammunition.

In the last month, Attorney General Luis Alfredo Rubí has requested that the human rights unit submit petitions for his review before it files them in court. This new procedure has resulted in the delay of at least one important case — a petition against the army for taking over the installations of the Canal 36 television station on June 28 — for over two weeks, as Rubí's office examines its merits.

Several other investigations continue at varying speeds, including investigations into security forces' alleged gang rape of a woman in San Pedro Sula during a protest march, as well as two deaths during demonstrations, a shooting death at a military roadblock, and the alleged extrajudicial execution of a pro-Zelaya demonstrator near the Nicaraguan border.

More:
http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/3439.cfm

http://www.aiamp.net.nyud.net:8090/sistema/UserFiles/Image/Cambio%20de%20mando.jpg http://www.hondudiario.com.nyud.net:8090/img/abogado_luis_alberto_rubi.jpg1.jpg http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/img_noticia/t_rubi_170.jpg

Attorney General Luis Alberto Rubi

[Judi Lynn]

36. Please see comments by rabs in 2 posts. From a Spanish source, this happened

near the guy's country place, a "finca," in an area frequented by hunters out to kill the deer in the area.

He includes photos of the car which was allegedly attacked:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x26116#26151

See rabs' posts #8, #11.

[boppers]

41. Interesting find...

Of course, it provides for an alternate explanation, but it doesn't make either explanation "true"... and the whole idea that it should be acceptable to have firearms discharged in the direction of authority because "it's hunting season" is a little outlandish.