Don't invade us, Chavez warns US

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/08/1078594274186.html

President Hugo Chavez vowed to freeze oil exports to the United States and wage a "100-year war" if Washington ever tried to invade Venezuela.

The United States has repeatedly denied ever trying to overthrow Chavez, but the leftist leader has accused Washington of being behind a failed 2002 coup and of funding opposition groups now seeking a recall referendum on his presidency.

Chavez accused the United States of ousting former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide and warned Washington not to "even think about trying something similar in Venezuela".

Venezuela "has enough allies on this continent to start a 100-year war," Chavez said during his weekly television show.

<snip>

Geez, the world has such a warm place in their heart since Bushco took over.

[bemildred]

1. He's such a ham sometimes. nt

[Deja Q]

2. Let Bush* invade everywhere he wants to...

It's just another factor of the US overstretching itself, with the eventual strain either breaking us or snapping back causing a whiplash so great that we will crumple.

What are the corporate scum doing to survive the US's eventual fall? Better counter their movement for when the time comes.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. Why the sudden upsurge in outsourcing? The Corporate underbelly

has been watching this crap build for a long time.

[gold_bug]

61. That's what some thought would happen

in the late 60's. "Che" Guevarra for example, "one Vietnam, many Vietnams". Imperial overstretch and implosion. But it didn't work, it just increased the level of bloodshed and repression throughout the Americas.

I don't believe Venezuela could resist a US invasion at all; Chavez's rhetoric is purely for internal consumption.

[napsi]

4. Chavez is a complete whack job

This guy is destroying his country and his people.....he needs to go......

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

5. BUSH is a complete whack job

This guy is destroying his country and his people.....he needs to go......

[napsi]

8. I agree

Bush is a whack job.....what's your point?

[lumpy]

69. Glad you agree Bush is a whack job

What's your point? Invasion?

[Emillereid]

32. I agree -- but I don't want the Venezuelans to do it for us --

we, the American people, want the pleasure!

[lumpy]

68. Good one

yes

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

6. Would you share some links that pointed you to this conclusion?

(News, not editorials)

Thanks

[not systems]

7. Your evidence is overwhelmingly ...

absent from your post.

What is the hourly rate for your services?

[AP]

9. GDP is up 9.6% is Venezuela since the attempted coup, IIRC.

He's not destroying his country.

He's building up a middle class and devolving political, economic and cultural power to them, and he is a major critic of neoliberalism.

[bemildred]

10. Nine percent rate in last 1/4 of 2003.

Around 9% projected for 2004 (Credit Suisse IIRC).
The latter one is more important. 9% from right after the "strike"
doesn't mean that much.

[windansea]

26. their own central bank says economy shrank (2003)

Overall, the economy fell 16.7 percent in the fourth quarter and 8.9 percent for the entire year, according to a statement from the central bank.

Most of the contraction in the economy was due to reduced oil production, a combination of Venezuela's adherence to lower production quotas established by the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, followed by the general strike, which began Dec. 2.

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/duluthsuperior/5185749.htm

[AP]

30. Maybe this article shed light on matters:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1109

[windansea]

35. that is a very pro chavez source

http://venenews.net/

[AP]

41. It's citing FACTS -- numbers, and how much they differend from reality.

Odd that it takes a pro-Chavez site to quantify the bias of the media.

[windansea]

43. their govt controlled central bank

said the economy contracted 9% in 2003

that wasn't a forecast....it's a hard figure...an end result...the article you cited talks about forecasts being off

anyway..believing whats reported on that site is like believing chimps numbers on unemployment...

[bobbyboucher]

51. Man,

you are always on Bush's side. What an apologist.

[windansea]

52. cuz I quoted a bank report??

:wtf:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

87. I think the reference is to how well you follow the Bush's take on this

situaton. And that comes from a cummulative following of your posts.

[AP]

60. Actually, that article shows that believing what the corporate press

says about Venezuela is like believing Chimp's unemployment numbers.

It compares actual numbers with what the whores actually said.

It's just math.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

85. who decides who gets the pro-chavez mark?

[juajen]

34. While this is interesting, I think the point is

that we are not the rulers of the world and should not be determining who should lead what country. This is insane. Why is it our business if he is not a good president. It's the people in his country who should make these decisions, without the help of the world's superpower. Bah, humbug!!!! I think this title should be given to another country. We would be much better off. Talk about your classic school-yard bully! It's us.

[TankLV]

37. Their Baaaaack!

OK, who turned off the lights again?

That roach spray isn't working!

[windansea]

50. "they're" not "their"

:dunce:

[9215]

59. even the spelling "bees" are back.

zzzzzzzzzz

[Judi Lynn]

64. You noticed, too?

[bemildred]

57. Wrong year. nt

[whathappened]

11. what do you no about

chavez , what you hear on fox or what you hear from real news

[napsi]

16. Well lets's see.....

I had 2 Venezuelan exchange students live with mu family in 2000. I went to Venezuela in 2002 to see them. In 2003 , I met these same 2 students, their parents and friends in Aruba (an island close to Venezuela where many vacation). I have talked extensively to them and keep in touch regulary.

1.) Chavez is a communist...he admires Castro and seeks his advise.

2.) Chavez is a complete anti-globalist.

3.) The people of Venezuela live in poverty despite it's rich oil reserves.

4.)Chavez claims to stand up for the little guy and will crack down down on the powerful "elite" in his country. So far the only ones prospering in Venezuela are Chavez and his cronies

5.) Chavez has connections to Gaddafi and "Carlos the Jackal" who is imprisoned in France.

It's just my opinion but.....Chavez is a "whack job".

[sendero]

21. whack job ...

... or not, the U.S. has no business whatsoever interfering with them, seeing as how our track record in that regard sucks eggs to say the least, not to mention international law.

If we're going to mess with every country with a leader we don't like, every man in the country will have to be conscripted and every dollar of production we have spent on weapons. Let it be, they are no threat to us.

[fearnobush]

23. National Endowment for Democracy, Ahy.

Ever hear of NSCA168?

[arikara]

45. Its nice that you know somebody

and can quote their opinions but that doesn't necessarily make what they say true. Chavez was elected (unlike the chimp) and a particular minority group of people are trying to hound him out of office because his policies don't favour them. The Venezuelan people were already in extreme poverty before Chavez was elected, and he is doing things to change that which are affecting the pocket books of said minority.

And good for him being an anti-globalist. Until the blueprint for that mess is changed, he's better off keeping out of it.

[daleo]

48. Do you really think two exchange students is a valid sample?

Consider the following:

- a sample of 2 has no statistical validity.
- exchange students are likely to come from a higher socio-economic class and may well be biased.
- the larger sample you talk of (parents, friends) is a convenience sample spun off from the original sample of 2. Again, this is not likely to be a good sample.

A fellow I work with is from Guyana, but I wouldn't assume everything he says about the place is the unvarnished truth. A woman I work with is from the Philippines, but I wouldn't assume everything she says about the place is the unvarnished truth. Another woman I work with is from the Malaysia, but I wouldn't assume everything she says about the place is the unvarnished truth. And so on.

You have to examine things from a lot of different angles, to hope to arrive at a sensible conclusion. First hand anecdotes are useful, but they are not the last word.

[burrowowl]

53. These students

obviously don't belong to the lower class and they have swallowed U$ corporatism all the way.
When my father was working with ICAO in Guatemala, his students (mostly upper class, middle didn't exist, no poor) asked him: How can we support our parents do, when what we learned from the Jesuits that they are not practicing social justice? Something is wrong.
BTW also did some work in Venezuela. Do you know of the Uberclass masacring of the Indians in Venezuela? Or of the the masacre of more or less 200,000 Guatemalean Indians during the Iran-contra thingie?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. What a bunch of bullshit.

How many of that 80% poor did you meet in Aruba, of all places. You're right that is just your opinion, none of what you said is based on fact. You can add this to your list of Mcarthyist accusations. I met a Venezuelan over the weekend during a screening of The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. Her family has 3 houses in Venezuela and 1 in Miami. She told me that the Cuban doctors in Venezuela are poisoning their patients on purpose. This is what kind of "whack jobs" we're dealing with.

[napsi]

70. You met a Venezuelan?

Well, I'm just so damn impressed............ As I stated before, I have been there, I have talked to many who live there....In their opinion and mine......Chavez is a wahck job.

BTW, we built a make shift hospital in Carceres in 2002 because Chavez couldn't see his way to funnel $20,000 for this project. Yep, what a guy!

Your Bullshit and mine................smells different.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

71. No I've met many and went to high school with a bunch of them.

The sad thing is that 98% of the ones I've met throughout my lifetime are a bunch of racist eltists. The only people I've met that surpass them in their racism and shallowness are Argentinians. My best friend being from Venezuela agrees 100% with this assesment. All her friends treat her differently ever since she started dating a black man. These are the people in which hands you want to put the country back into. As far as the girl I met friday it was just one example of how outrageous and fanatical these people have become. You went there, big fucking deal. I hope you spent some time in the slums and not just with your Aruba vacationing friends. Your post is still commie name calling bullshit. But thanks for playing. If you want to hand the country over back to the Republican party equivalent in Venezuela go ahead be my guest.

[Vladimir]

73. I have similar experiences in Serbia

Every time I go back I am stunned by the levels of ignorance, sexism and racism. I remember walking along in Belgrade and seeing this gypsy kid struggling to push a cart full of rubbish up some steps. I went over to help and a friend of mine (educated, middle classs, who I have known since we were able to walk) says to me: "be careful, you don't want to catch something". I don't even want to go into the reaction of some of my friends when I myself was dating an asian girl in England for a while. Sad thing is, the gypsy kid will never be able to leave the country, never be able to tell the bloggers his story. The middle class boy will tell everyone he meets how terrible it is that the gypsies are too lazy to help themselves. I'm sick of the bullshit, sick of the lies, sick of this culture.

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

75. Amazing isn't it?

I grew up in a country which is very much influenced by Venezuelan media and pop-culture. The nonsense and ignorance fomented by their "news" and overall programming, that keep my people glued to the tube much like reality here, are second to none in Latin America. All I know is that Venezuela has never had a constitution that resembles so much that of the US. One thing is to dislike Chavez the man. But it is another thing to want to kill the Bolivarian movement. Unlike the US revolution the Venezuelan revolution has been bloodless. That does not mean that precious human life has not been taken on both sides. What people need to understand is that Republican or Democratic leaders have no interest in Democracy in Latin America. They never have and I'll be damned if they ever will. A good example is seeing how James Carville has chosen to work with an "opposition" that seems to have more Republican than Democratic qualities.

[Vladimir]

76. Of course they don't

I have seen too much bullshit to pass blanket judgements on people like Chavez. I remember when my family had to leave Yugoslavia in the early 90s, living in Sweden for 2 years on refugees allowance. Don't get me wrong, it was a comfortable life - the Swedish allowance is very generous. But for two years I got just a little taster of what it meant to have to count every penny, have no overdraft and no credit rating, for my mom to be unable to work because my dad was already earning as much as the family was entitled to. That tiny fragment of knowledge is enough. Those who want to perpetuate the Shangri-la image of the third world can go to hell.

V

edit:spelling

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

77. As always, bro you know what time it is.

Here's an interesting tidbit on Chavez's "unpopularity".

http://www.narconews.com/Issue27/article594.html

Datanalisis’ Pollster:
Chavez “has to be killed”

Gil Yepes and Keller are not merely “anti-Chavez”; they are openly and virulently anti-Chavez. In a July 8 article in the Los Angeles Times, Miller describes Gil Yepes as a man of “Venezuela’s elite” who “moves in circles of money, power and influence” and “was educated in top U.S. schools.”

It’s certainly shocking that the LA Times quoted Gil Yepes saying that Chavez “has to be killed.”

But it is even more shocking that the LA Times and other commercial media continued to use Gil Yepes’ polling “results” after his homicidal fantasies leaped out of the closet through the pages of last July’s LA Times.

[Vladimir]

78. Thanks for the link

I am kind of angry with myself that these things don't surprise or shock me anymore. I just haven't got the energy to be outraged 24/7 I guess...

I particularly love the Castro quote though. As I said in a different post:

a) 500,000 opposition supporters are allowed to march through the capital unhindered.

b)Opposition groups have to fight for weeks to be allowed any kind of protest at all, and are sheparded into secure zones and kept many blocks away from the leaders they wish to protest about.

Guess which country is the UK and which is Venezuela?

V

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

79. Any time.

I said all I needed to say today about this subject, to this guy here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=405838&mesg_id=407841&page=

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

12. Here's a bit on Chavez from October, 2003...

CARACAS, Oct 6 (AFP) - A lawmaker allied with President Hugo Chavez wants the US Congress to tap CIA records, which he said said on Monday will show funding links to Venezuelan opposition groups.

Ruling party lawmaker Nicolas Maduro charged the US Central Intelligence Agency has funded Venezuelan opposition groups seeking to oust Chavez.

Maduro briefed reporters about the pending request, but declined to say which US lawmakers would be asked to help.

He spoke a day after two separate explosions appeared to target air force headquarters and a Caracas military base.

Maduro also said he will seek US congressional help for access to any CIA records related to a failed April 2002 coup d'etat which swept Chavez from power for less than two days.

Venezuela is the third exporter of oil to the United States and the only South American member of the Organization of Oil Exporting Countries, OPEC.

The Sunday explosions followed several September bomb and grenade attacks, one near the presidential palace and which Chavez officials attributed to opponents seeking to remove Chavez in a recall vote.

Nobody has claimed responsibility for Sunday's explosions, but Maduro said the attacks were instigated by Chavez opponents who he claimed have received CIA funding.

"We have information that these same groups are planning attacks on the organizations gathering signatures to recall Chavez, to simulate attacks, to cause injuries, in order to pretend the attacks were orchestrated by the government," Maduro claimed.
<snip>
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/ak/Qvenezuela-politics-cia.RS_f_DO6.html

It's so hard to tell who the good guys are...

[AP]

14. I think it's perfectly obvious who the bad guys are.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

17. Yep... I forgot the </sarcasm> switch...

:)

[windansea]

18. heres a list of venezuelan news links

tells you which ones are pro Chavez sources

http://venenews.net/

and here is a link to a pro opposition blog on salon by a venezuelan...good info pics and analysis

if you want some unbiased opinions on the referendum go to the carter center

http://www.cartercenter.com/viewdoc.asp?docID=1631&submenu=news

and Human Rights watch

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

20. Thanks for the links!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

88. You might want to try this link as well

http://www.gregpalast.com/columns.cfm?subject_id=20&subject_name=Latin%20America

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

95. Thanks. Been there. Great stuff from my POV...

:toast:

[WyLoochka]

13. The Oligarchs

in Venezuela are destroying the country. They cannot stand it that Chavez is using the oil and land to provide opportunities for the 80% of the population who live in poverty. He's educating them, getting health care to them, and stimulating the economy with micro business and agricultural loans to dirt poor individuals.

They're also really pissed off about the 9.1% clip at which the Venezuelan economy has been growing, because his plan is working! Their opportunity to seize control of the oil profits for the benefit of the top 20%, instead of the bottom 80% is slipping away and they are desparate.

As to being a "complete whack job," unlike our wanker Prez - who is "bored" with talk of economics, Chavez consumes vast amounts of information about economics, reading voraciously and articulating a huge body of knowledge on the subject.

[AP]

15. Pallast says that Chavez's plan for growth is pretty much exactly what JFK

envisioned for South America: straight up New Deal economic policy. Build up the middle class and you'll have the wealthiest society possible. It's a joke to call this socialism. It's what we did in America for 40 years up to 1972 to create the golden age of American economic development.

However, what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander. American foreign policy even under Clinton was to inflict a kind of neoliberlism abroad which we'd NEVER prescribe at home because we KNOW it doesn't work.

[nolabels]

42. I thought they wanted Henry Kissinger's Condor version

I am so confused about this

http://www.lakota.clara.net/myths/economy.html

The Chicago boys
and the Chilean 'economic miracle'

SUMMARY: So what was the record for the entire Pinochet regime? Between 1972 and 1987, the GNP per capita fell 6.4 percent. (13) In constant 1993 dollars, Chile's per capita GDP was over $3,600 in 1973. Even as late as 1993, however, this had recovered to only $3,170. (14) Only five Latin American countries did worse in per capita GDP during the Pinochet era (1974-1989). (15) And defenders of the Chicago plan call this an "economic miracle."

By Steve Kangas

Related research paper

Many people have often wondered what it would be like to create a nation based solely on their political and economic beliefs. Imagine: no opposition, no political rivals, no compromise of morals. Only a "benevolent dictator," if you will, setting up society according to your ideals.

The Chicago School of Economics got that chance for 16 years in Chile, under near-laboratory conditions. Between 1973 and 1989, a government team of economists trained at the University of Chicago dismantled or decentralized the Chilean state as far as was humanly possible. Their program included privatizing welfare and social programs, deregulating the market, liberalizing trade, rolling back trade unions, and rewriting its constitution and laws. And they did all this in the absence of the far-right's most hated institution: democracy.

The results were exactly what liberals predicted. Chile's economy became more unstable than any other in Latin America, alternately experiencing deep plunges and soaring growth. Once all this erratic behavior was averaged out, however, Chile's growth during this 16-year period was one of the slowest of any Latin American country. Worse, income inequality grew severe. The majority of workers actually earned less in 1989 than in 1973 (after adjusting for inflation), while the incomes of the rich skyrocketed. In the absence of market regulations, Chile also became one of the most polluted countries in Latin America. And Chile's lack of democracy was only possible by suppressing political opposition and labor unions under a reign of terror and widespread human rights abuses.

Conservatives have developed an apologist literature defending Chile as a huge success story. In 1982, Milton Friedman enthusiastically praised General Pinochet (the Chilean dictator) because he "has supported a fully free-market economy as a matter of principle. Chile is an economic miracle." (1) However, the statistics below show this to be untrue. Chile is a tragic failure of right-wing economics, and its people are still paying the price for it today.

The history of Chile and the "Chicago boys"

Unfortunately, Chile has been the site of revolution and experimentation for over 30 years now. From 1964 to 1970, President Eduardo Frei led a "revolution in liberty." From 1970 to 1973, Salvadore Allende embarked on a "Chilean road to socialism." From 1973 to 1989, General Augusto Pinochet and his military regime conducted a "silent revolution" (so-called because the free market quietly brought about drastic social change). After 1990, Chile has returned to democracy, but it will be a long time recovering from its experiments.
(snip)

These folks are so (sic)

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

19. But... bit... How can they have a true Democracy without a wealthy

ruling class to watch out for the workers?

</sarcasm>

[rman]

67. yeah, who'll provide "moral clarity" and "compassion"?

We all know that can't be left to these lazy poor people.
Chavez really should invite some neocons to give him advice, erm.. to 'educate' the government and the people..

[fearnobush]

22. You need to take the red pill.

[Tinoire]

24. Yepper! DOWN WITH BUSH!

This guy is destroying his country and his people.....he needs to go......

Not to mention that he & his henchmen keep getting tripped up because they're just not all that bright.

[Emillereid]

31. Whether Chavez stays or goes is up to the Venezuelian people --

and the US should keep their hands off. He has actually done a lot of good for the poor and oppressed -- most of his opponents come from the upper classes.

[Isome]

33. "...up to the Venezuelian people."

That's the long and short of it.

It's sad, but people practice what they're taught. The poor have been taught that violence is the way— it is to be expected that they will apply that lesson at some point.

[rman]

66. That is not very convincing,

maybe because of lack of arguments and sources?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

86. please explain

with sources

[Fargin Ice Hole]

97. Yes...... They must accept the new religion or be forced to..........

<>

[mitchtv]

25. Does he remind anyone else of Peron?

I remember him and Evita as a kid, and was there when he returned in the 70's

[Isome]

27. People are just tired of it all...

The rich getting richer, exploiting the poor, condoning (passively or actively) violence to keep them in line, and then crying foul when the poor refuse to take it anymore.

Whatever works... do what you do Hugo!

[jeanmarc]

28. Saber rattling, his timing is actually good

Any cutoff of oil would be interpreted as an act of war by the neocons. However, we are already overextended and we are in an election year, so this dummy can mouth off all he wants. I do hope someone can expose the recent events on Chavez. Is this babies in incubators stuff or is it somewhat real? The US's actions so far don't help Venezuela, they only embolden a tougher policy on the right wing there.

[windansea]

29. it's not incubator stories

human rights watch reports

http://hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu


scroll down for torture pics here

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/

[jeanmarc]

46. Very disturbing

My wish is for them to wait for the world to return to normalcy. Pretend to be obedient until January, unless they want the full assault of a dictator on them. Wait until then, when we have a real President in the White House to help them out. Right now, they might have something worse sicked upon them from our current stooge in office. They might not believe it, but it could definitely be worse. It sucks that I have an administration that I cannot trust the motives of and people are suffering so.

[windansea]

49. the problem with waiting

if the recall is allowed now and Chavez is voted out..they get to have a new election for president...in a few weeks, if the recall is held and Chavez gets voted out..he gets to pick his right hand man as successor...this is why Chavez is stalling...

[noiretextatique]

55. this page should be of more interest to US

http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa

[juajen]

38. He's a "dummy", you say?

I don't know too much about him myself, certainly not enough to call him a "dummy". How many countries have you run? I am a tad confused. Why can't they sell their oil to whomever? Isn't it theirs, or do we lay claim to anything we want in whatever country we want, as we are doing in Iraq?

[jeanmarc]

47. Dummies torture their opponents

He should put a stop to such nonsense. Or do you support the use of torture to quell your opponents?

There are rules of engagement, and perhaps he is abiding by such weak rules, but I cannot condone the use of torture.

[Vogon_Glory]

36. Hope The US Is Smarter Than That, But Have Doubts

I hope that the US is smarter than to invade Venezuela, even with C plus Augustus at the helm and Otto Reich whispering in his ear.. At best the US could only hope to dominate part of the coast and the oil fields, at worst US armed forces would be spread out over thousands of miles of often rugged, inhospitable terrain with very porous frontiers.

I've been reading The Liberators, about the men who liberated South America from the Spanish yoke. Venezuela doesn't sound nearly as congenial a place to occupy as, say, post-World War II Germany or post-World War II Japan--even without taking the attitudes of the Venezuelans into account.

[juajen]

39. I love that "c+ Augustus" moniker

We need a picture with toga and laurel wreath. Rich!!

[Vogon_Glory]

56. Can'tt Claim Credit For C plus Augustus

I can't claim credit for C plus Augustus, that's somebody else's wicked barb. The best I'd been able to do was George the Lesser, George Minor, and Georgius Imperator.

:evilfrown:

[chasqui]

40. It would be a disaster, and that is why we are not going to invade.

On the other hand, inhospitable terrain and nationalistic feelings have not stopped the USA from interfering with Chile, Half of the countries in the caribbean, etc. What is going on is that Mr Chavez is very cognizant of the methods of his enemy, and he seems to be adapting to the kind of fight he expected all along.

[pfitz59]

44. I have been to Venezuela.....

and seen the disparity of wealth before Chavez. Anything to bust the oligarchs is fine with me. Was a shame to see grinding poverty in such an enormously wealthy country! You go, Hugo!

[burrowowl]

54. You go too!

By the way, apparently in NY there is a great disparity of wealth too.
The U$ of A among the developed countries is going down, down ...

[nolabels]

63. REAL NEWS ?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1173

Venezuela's Defense Minister says Accusations of Alliances with Guerrillas are "Hoaxes"
(snip)
Shaky Credibility

The behavior of military officers who oppose the government of President Hugo Chavez affect the credibility of these alleged testimonies. Several officers have been discharged from the military due to their role in the coup d’etat of 2002 against President Chavez. Some other officers believed to be involved in the coup, have remained inside the armed forces due to lack of evidence of their participation.

Late in 2002, a group of rebel military officers who openly oppose the Chavez administration, set up a protest camp at the Francia Square in the affluent eastern Caracas neighborhood of Altamira, to give anti-government speeches and make calls to overthrow the President. Two of these rebels German Rodolfo Varela and Jose Antonio Colina are being sought by authorities in connection with the terrorist attacks on the Embassy of Spain and the Consulate of Colombia in Caracas, on February 26, 2003. Varela and Colina are seeking political asylum in the United States. Several others have also eluded authorities and escaped to other countries.

Recently a US judge dismissed a lawsuit accusing the Venezuelan govenrment of providing money to the Al-Qaeda terrorist network for the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center of New York City. The lawsuit was based on the testimony of a pilot who deserted the Venezuelan Air Force and asked for political asylum in Miami. The pilot, Ramon Diaz, failed to provide evidences or further testimonies to US authorities.

Making false allegations against the Chavez administration to foreign governments hoping to destabilize it or to discredit it, seems like the only option left for those who seek to oust President Chavez, but who cannot find significant support inside the Venezuelan Armed Forces for another coup.
(snip)

Try here
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

[Duck90MPH]

58. Just what the world needs

Another Cuba. Chavez is well on his way to a Castro style dictatorship.

[johnny_red]

62. really?

how has cuba been a problem in world affairs since it stopped being the soviet's forward pawn?

from what i can tell, cuba seems to be fairly well run and peaceful. if americans were alowed to trade with cuba, i'd imagine that it would be the closest thing to paradise the world has yet seen. they have more teachers percapita than the us, more doctors, lower infant mortality rate, higher literacy rate, less of a gap between rich and poor...

another cuba might not be such a bad thing.

[Minstrel Boy]

72. ain't it the truth?

"how has cuba been a problem in world affairs since it stopped being the soviet's forward pawn?"

Nelson Mandela, October 23, 1995:

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa - "Cubans came to our region as doctors, teachers, soldiers, agricultural experts, but never as colonizers," said South African president Nelson Mandela at the opening of a Cuba-Southern Africa solidarity conference here October 6.

"They have shared the same trenches with us in the struggle against colonialism, underdevelopment, and apartheid. Hundreds of Cubans have given their lives, literally, in a struggle that was, first and foremost, not theirs but ours. As Southern Africans we salute them. We vow never to forget this unparalleled example of selfless internationalism."
http://www.themilitant.com/1995/5939/5939_1.html

[napsi]

81. That's it!

I know I have not found a home here after your post. I must live in a vacuum or something because if admiring Cuba and Castro is what the mainstream democratic party has become well...........I have no home anymore. I can't vote for either party.........

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

89. Good, see ya!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

90. You ain't foolin me!

Don't let the door hitcha!

[napsi]

80. It's amazing to me

that many people here are so willing to fall in line with a communist sleazeball. I just don't get it. Perhaps I'm an old forgotten democrat...out of touch and out of sight. It seems my only connection is my desire to see Bush lose this election. I haven't found much else I can agree on here.

[Bridget Burke]

82. So you think we should invade & take Chavez out?

By "old" forgotten Democrat, I guess you mean you're too old for the military.

[napsi]

83. I never said that....

I said Chavez is a whack job who benefits from his position but has done virtually nothing for his people. He is a communist (aligned with Castro), an anti-globalist and has ties to international criminals. I don't like the guy and I was responding to someone who thinks he hung the moon.

We have no business doing anything but we should encourage the Venezuelan people to do better.

[napsi]

84. I never said that....

I said Chavez is a whack job who benefits from his position but has done virtually nothing for his people. He is a communist (aligned with Castro), an anti-globalist and has ties to international criminals. I don't like the guy and I was responding to someone who thinks he hung the moon.

We have no business doing anything but we should encourage the Venezuelan people to do better.

[rman]

91. please explain how Aristide and/or Chavez are communist

and how that'd be a bad thing?

[Judi Lynn]

92. Yes, it WOULD be appropriate if you provided sources for your charge

of Chavez's communistic political leanings. Otherwise, it's a slur, isn't it?

Would you explain your remark concerning DU'ers who believe _Bush should stay out of Venezuela as "falling in line with a communist sleazeball?"

Please be honest enough to confront DU'ers directly. Are you calling me or others "communists?" Be honest. It's expected of you.

[FlaGranny]

74. While this entire thread is interesting, in a way,

the entire complete truth is - it's NONE of our business, absolutely none. None, that is, unless our main purpose is world domination. Is that the purpose of our government? No doubt.

Just about everything I've heard said about "other" world leaders can be applied to our own leaders. The world is a lot smaller and more alike than I once thought.

[Rex]

93. Rex's prediction: the 100 years war would last 10 minutes.

Maybe Chavez didn't watch when Emperor Bush bombed the fuck outta Iraq last year, if not then someone should send him a tape of "shock & awe" Rummy-style ASAP.

The BFEE doesn't 'play ball' - they kill in mass and without mercy. Don't take my word for it, just ask Bush how many funerals (of the ones coming back in pine boxes from Iraq/Afghanistan) of our troops he has attended.

[Minstrel Boy]

94. You think the war in Iraq is over?

The war in Afghanistan isn't over yet, either.

Bush's wars - really, different fronts in the war which "won't end in our lifetimes" - will never be over.

Venezuela will be some "cakewalk."

[Rex]

96. Loose lips sink ships

All I meant is that Chavez should know by now that when you make enough noise the Monster will hear it, and move in close enough to crush your skull. Why entice your own demise?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

98. For every Grendel there is a Beowulf...