Gunfire during protest leaves at least 6 dead in Haiti

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/8130536.htm

PORT-AU-PRINCE -- At least six people were killed and about 30 injured Sunday when gunfire erupted near the National Palace as thousands of marchers celebrated the ouster of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

Among the dead was a Spanish journalist. Sun-Sentinel photographer Michael Laughlin was wounded.

U.S. Marines, guarding the National Palace since Aristide fled Feb. 29, reported they shot at two gunmen, killing one of them.

Opposition leaders immediately blamed the shootings on Aristide supporters, noting that hospital officials said most of the injuries were from automatic weapons.

<snip>

[Tinoire]

1. Aristide supporters have automatic weapons now?

The propaganda is getting extemely sloppy. They went from a few hand-guns & machetes to automatic weapons overnight?!?! Thanks for posting this. The lies are getting taller and taller.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

2. It's getting deeper than the first days of the Lynch rescue...

We're going to need hip waders for this story before the truth finally outs.

[Tinoire]

3. Lol. You are not kidding

Between keeping track of their lies on Iraq, on Venezuela, on Haiti and damn everything else- my head is spinning like a top!

[windansea]

12. 6 dead 14 injured

you call that propaganda? what will you say when it's proved this was Lavalas thugs??

[Tinoire]

15. It is not surprising that you refuse to address the point

the Lavalas people do not have machine guns. It kind of blows another hole in the propaganda those who sympathize with Bush's actions are spreading all the internet. Only those who are betting too much on the success of having sold the world a packet of lies about non-existent WMDs would expect people to believe that the Lavalas supporters went from Machetes and hand-guns to machine-guns overnight.

So many holes in that rapidly sinking boat it's that you have to wonder about the tenacity of the defenders, they just keep denying the obvious even though they're up to their neck in the ocean of lies.

Guy Philippe & his FRAPH supporters marching peacefully with the US Marines and poor people who can barely afford enough to eat on $1/day turning machetes into machine-guns overnight. What a crock.

[windansea]

16. how do you know what they have

all the witnesses (including international press) said it was Lavalas Aristide supporters who did the shooting...I'm sure the hospital has the bullets which will tell the type of gun used and aldo be used to identify the actual weapons used...with all the video going on theres a very good chance the gunmen will be identified

[Tinoire]

18. I read Windandsea. I read, I inform myself & I listen

and not just to the parts that suit my views but all of it. I do not confine myself to the Washington Post and the NYT while desperately clinging to little snippets of information that reinforce Bush's lies.

Lavalas supporters do not have machine guns. If they did, they wouldn't have been mowed down in the streets. Right now the country of Haiti is in tears and mourning for their lost Democracy. Contrary to what you defend, democracy does not come from the guns of US marines or from the machine-guns of US-armed thugs.

What is your purpose on this board? Is it to defend Bush's actions or is it to further democracy by giving the little people, who are being mowed down by the ever-increasing violence of the corporations, a voice?

[windansea]

20. this story is all over the world now

the witnesses include the world press...you can't write off the reports that witnesses say the gunmen were Lavalas...I'm betting they find out who did it...

If you remember...I was (still am) a strong supporter of Clark whom you constantly smeared with garbage about Kosovo and SOA...but I don't recall implying you were a troll or bush supporter because we disagreed....many democrats don't like Aristide or Chavez...sorry if you can't deal with that.

[Tinoire]

24. School of the Americas right here Windandsea! National Endowment

School of the Americas right here Windandsea! National Endowment for Democracy RIGHT HERE at work!

Of course you're proud of it.

Many Clark supporters at least had the good sense to disown any support of the NED and the SOA honestly saying they did not support what these institutions do. A select few unfortunately are still so enamored of those institutions that they die-hardedly defend their blatant involvement in overthrowing democracy in Latin America and the Carribean. Well they say they're not overthrowing it, they're just re-defining it :eyes: anyway they can to better suit corporate interests. Never mind how many poor dark-skinned people die, let's keep the corporations safe so that Levis and baseballs won't cost too much.

Kosovo :thumbsdown: NED :thumbsdown: SOA :thumbsdown: Coup in Haiti :thumbsdown: Coup in Venezuela :thumbsdown:

Power to the people :thumbsup:
Democracy :thumbsup:

[windansea]

29. power to the people huh??

thats why you want to suppress a constitutional right of venezuelans to have a recall?? I mean..if Chavez is so popular why worry???

his disaproval rating is over 60%...thats why he's trying to stop it and thats why guys like Carter and Frank are condeming his tactics

where did I defend SOA or NED?? you used those to smear Clark by association...a typical RW tactic.... he had nothing to do with overthrowing any democracies anywhere and is a very popular guy in Kosovo

[burrowowl]

30. Well said, Tinoire!

Who is Windandea (profile not available)? And did you know that the U$ HRW has a few potential scandels as to not being all that HR Watchers they should be?

[windansea]

33. heh!!

an anonymous poster just like you....would you feel better if I had a visible profile like yours that says undeclared gender???

:eyes:

[I AM SPARTACUS]

34. never mind. I misread.

[burrowowl]

37. Go to my profile now

n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jazzgirl]

4. I just posted a link as well.

Sorry Billy_Pilgrim. I didn't see your post. I was wondering where they would have possibly gotten the weapons. This doesn't make sense! Mods can lock my thread.

Jazzgirl

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. No prob... If I had a dime for every dupe I've posted, I'd have enough

for a new computer! :toast:

[Tinoire]

9. Maybe they crossed over with them from the Dominican Republic?

<sarcasm>


The fact that Guy Philippe could not have freely entered Port-au-Prince, despite the opposition, without the U.S. Marines first removing Aristide is testament to Aristide's popularity and solidarity with the Haitian people.

<snip>

Nine hundred U.S. soldiers patrol the DR with the Dominican Guard. Yet, on Feb. 5, 2004, convicted murderers Chamblain and Philippe managed to cross the border into Haiti with U.S. weaponry such as M16s, M60s, armored vehicles, grenade launchers, etc.

The United States DEA charged Guy Philippe as a drug trafficker. Today he walks side by side with U.S. Marines in Port-au-Prince while the constitutionally elected Haitian president is flown out of Port-au-Prince under heavy U.S. coercion, if not outright gunpoint by U.S Marines.

Toto Constant, FRAPH founder, to whom the U.S. gave asylum in Queens, N.Y., while indefinitely detaining his Haitian victims on Guantanamo Bay and other INS holding pens, is now reportedly back in Haiti.

Guy Philippe and his gang's first order of business after they were escorted into Port-au-Prince by U.S. soldiers was to "liberate" 2,000 prisoners - murderers and felons - in the Haitian National Penitentiary, including Proper Avril, and unleash them onto Haitian society.


<snip>

http://www.sfbayview.com/030304/weanswers030304.shtml

[windansea]

5. quote from CNN producer

"A whole group from Lavalas came down the Champs de Mars firing in every direction," said Ingrid Arnesen, a CNN producer who witnessed the attack. "Heavy machine gun fire."

Hospital officials said the dead included Spaniard Ricardo Ortega, a correspondent for the Antena 3 Spanish television station. A Reuters cameraman said at least four other journalists were wounded, including American Michael Laughlin of the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. A spokesman for the paper said he was shot in face and shoulder.

[bemildred]

6. Does she really mean they had heavy MG?

Things are going to get much more shitty than I thought
if that is so. Maybe it was just heavy machine-gun-fire.
I expect Ms Arnesen would not know in any case.

[windansea]

8. ever hear an AK or M16 on full auto??

they sound pretty heavy...I don't think she was describing 50 caliber machine guns...as for her experience in war zones I don't know...I hope they have some video or photos of this and catch the gunmen and hang them.

[bemildred]

10. I thought the question would be whether she has heard a 50 cal or not,

so as to know the difference.

[windansea]

11. probably not 50 cal

those things will cut you in half

another report

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040307-045332-8391r

[Isome]

13. The MOONIES...

You gotta' love 'em.

[windansea]

14. NY Times...

As the march began to disperse, with thousands of Aristide opponents gathered near the palace gates, gunmen opened fire at close range on a cluster of demonstrators on the north side of the palace, witnesses said. The witnesses said the gunmen were among a group of supporters of Mr. Aristide.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/07/international/americas/07CND-HAIT.html?ex=1079326800&en=c3151d6314a1c81e&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[MidwestMomma]

27. Quote from military spokesperson says it's unclear who gunmen were

From an AP article at:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040308/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/haiti&cid=589&ncid=716

"Several witnesses said they saw Aristide militants open fire from the roof of the Rex movie theater across the plaza as thousands of people gathered in front of the National Palace. U.S. military spokesman Maj. Richard Crusan said it was unclear who the gunmen were."


And who exactly were the shooters and who did the Marines engage?

From the AP article above:

"Several witnesses said they saw Aristide militants open fire from the roof of the Rex movie theater across the plaza as thousands of people gathered in front of the National Palace. U.S. military spokesman Maj. Richard Crusan said it was unclear who the gunmen were.

He told The Associated Press that three Marines on the grounds of the palace returned fire, shooting in the direction of the theater. No Marines were wounded."

But from another article from SwissInfo at:

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=4770509

"U.S. Marines returned fire from within the National Palace grounds when men in a vehicle opened fire, an official said.

"I believe the Marines engaged the vehicle when they fired rounds," said Major Richard Crusan."

So were they on the theater or in truck? The information is different for each article.

Also from the SwissInfos article:

"The journalists were shot during a gun fight between chimeres and a Haitian police special weapons team, a witness said."

Think maybe the 'police' might have shot some people? They're the ones with automatic weapons...right?


Two things that strike me about this incident:

1) I'm very worried this is a set-up for some intense violence against the Aristide supporters. The articles both mention that the pro-Aristide people had to cancel their demostration today because the peacekeeping forces would not offer protection. They also state the pro-Aristide people will be having their march tomorrow. I pray for their safety,

2) The only thing that is clear about what happened today is that nobody really knows who was doing the shooting. However, when you read shit like this:

"In Sunday's march, revellers hoisted Guy Philippe, the leader of the ragtag band of rebels who helped oust Aristide, on their
shoulders, shouting "Philippe, Philippe!" Another rebel commander, former death squad chief Louis Jodel Chamblain, signed
autographs."

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=4770509

I wouldn't trust anything witnessed by such a crowd.

That just makes me :puke:

[I AM SPARTACUS]

28. "I'm very worried this is a set-up for some intense violence against..."

"I'm very worried this is a set-up for some intense violence against the Aristide supporters."

(deserved an echo...)

[burrowowl]

32. Me too!

Me too!

[Tinoire]

36. That and for the re-establishment of the Army

to protect these elite mansions and their owners in the hills.

[Tinoire]

31. You're wise not to. Check this out. Straight from the Haitian Press

and thank you for taking the time to find all that!

((translation below))

Port-au-Prince, 7 mars 2004 -(AHP)- Au moins 5 personnes dont un journaliste espagnol ont été tuées dimanche à Port-au-Prince à l'issue d'une manifestation de l'opposition qui a rassemblé plusieurs milliers de personnes.

Les tirs ont éclaté dans des circonstances encore confuses alors que la plus grande partie de la manifestation était déjà arrivée devant le palais national accompagnée par des soldats étrangers et des membres de la police nationale .

Les victimes ont été abattues en des points différents: deux personnes ont été tuées devant le palais national et les 3 autres à la Rue Lamarre situées à quelques distances de là.

Selon certaines déclarations, les tireurs se seraient tenus à distance pour tirer sur la foule. Toutefois, un manifestant a fait savoir qu'une des victimes a été abattue par qulqu'un qui se trouvait au coeur même de la manifestation.

D'autres ont fait savoir qu'il était difficile de savoir qui tirait et d'où venaient exactement les tirs. On raporte aussi que des marines ont tiré depuis le palais national en direction de l'origine supposée des tirs.

<snip>

D'autres responsables de l'opposition ont accusé le président Aristide de manoeuvrer ses partisans depuis Bangui en République centre-africaine où il se trouve.

<snip>

Aussitôt après l'eclatement des incidents, le chef des rebelles Guy Philippe qui avait récemmennt pris récemmment le contrôle de plusieurs commissariiats de police du pays, a annoncé qu'il reprendrait les armes pour protéger la population.

Il a denoncé ce qu'il appelle la pasivité et la complicité des militaires américains qui n'ont rien fait, a-t-il dit, pour la protéger de ceux qu'ils nomment les "chimères lavalas".

" Nous avions demande de l'aide pour renverser Aristide et non pour une occupation du pays", ont-ils encore lancé.

<snip>

======

At least 5 people, among them one Spanish journalist, were killed Sunday in Port-au-Prince in a demonstration by several thousand members of the opposition.

The shots rang out in circumstances still unclear when the largest part of the demonstration, accompanied by foreign soldiers and the National Police, had already reached the front of the National Palace.

The victims were mowed down in different locations: 2 were killed in front of the Palace and the other 3 were killed on Rue Lamarre, a little ways from there.

According to certain testimony, the killers were located at a distance so they could shoot at the crowd. However, one demonstrator let it be know that one of the victims was killed by someone who was in the center of the demonstration.

Others stated that it was difficult to tell who was shooting and from where exactly the shots were coming. It's also reported that the Marines fired back from their location at the Palace in the direction of the shots.

The opposition immediately blamed Aristide's supporters. Others blamed Aristide for manouvering his partisans all the way from Bangui where he is presently located.

Immediately after the incident, the rebel leader Guy Philippe, who recently took control of several police stations in the country, announced he was taking up his arms again to protect the population.

He denounced the passivity and complicity of the US military that did nothing, he said, to protect the population from Aristide's "lavalas gangs".

<snip>

"We asked for help in getting rid of Aristide and not for the occupation of the country", the demonstrators said.

<snip>

AHP 7 mars 2004 11:30PM
http://www.ahphaiti.org/ndujour.html


Remember Guy Phillipe? "The country is in my hands". I had a post this morning (a thread) were I found a certain story by the NYT about the rebels "peacefully" marching alongside the Marines & the French Forces a little too much to swallow- especially when Phillipe's people are made up of the emptied prisons of Haiti and led by wanted criminals. The story made no sense. Now it is beginning to.

They're going to re-establish & re-outfit the army just like they did for Baby Doc.

[Tinoire]

35. As of the night before the rebels were still fully armed & out of uniform

despite "promises" made to the American authorities
circulating in civilian clothes while fully armed and vowing to bring back the Army because the army is "constitutional"

Nouvelles du 6 mars 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Les insurgés de Guy Philippe toujours armés; partisans de la plateforme et de Lavalas se preparent à manifester



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Port-au-Prince, 6 mars 2004 -(AHP)- Les anciens militaires conduits par Guy Philippe n'ont toujours pas deposé les armes, en dépit des promesses faites en début de semaine aux autorités américaines par l'ancien chef de l'armée du Nord qui avait pris le contrôle de plusieurs commissariats de police du pays à la fin du mois dernier.

Même s'ils ne sont pas remarqués en uniforme dans les rues, ils continuent de circuler amés, a fait savoir samedi un ancien militiaire.

Dans le plateau central et aux Gonaïves, plusieurs d'entre eux dont l'ex-sergent, Joseph Jean-Baptiste ont réitéré à la fin de la emaine qu'ils ne déposeraient pas les armes, l'armée étant, ont-ils dit, une force constitutionelle.


<snip>
http://www.ahphaiti.org/ndujour.html

[Isome]

17. dax posted this in another thread on the subject...

it fits in perfectly here too:

http://www.haiti-progres.com/eng02-11.html

"...there were definitely thugs recruited prior to the coup to act as Aristide supporters and do violence specifically for propaganda purposes and to mask the more targetted slaughter of Lavalas members and supporters-"

[Tinoire]

19. It's the oldest trick in the book...

Now we know why the NYT had that most bizarre article about the "unarmed" rebels marching peacefully with the US Marines, the French Army and the Bush-paid Coast guard this morning. Some of us were wondering what their purpose was in stating that because it made no sense that "unarmed" FRAPH killers guilty of massacring innocent peasants & wanted for drug-trafficking would be "peacefully" marching with occupying troops.

[noiretextatique]

23. but, but, but....if the ny times said they were aristide supporters

it must be true :eyes:

[Tinoire]

25. LMAO! They said there were WMDs too

They're certainly persistent.

[hellhathnofury]

21. The gun discussion is absurd.

Judging who it is based on what type of firearms were used is pointless. Right now, we really have no solid idea of who was doing the shooting. It's all "he said, she said." I doubt the Marines even have proper briefings for Haiti. How do you tell a pro-Aristide gunman from a rebel gunman? Black pajammas (sarcasm)? Everyone has guns right now.

Journalists have been hurt, I'd give it a little research time before jumping on one side. They've got to investigate this shooting.

[daleo]

26. There will be a lot of accusation and counter-accusation

Like so many of these situations around the world (Iraq, Israel/Palestine, Venezuela, etc.). My usual procedure is to ask:

- "who profits from the action the most"?
- "who has lied to me in the past"?
- "who has a history of this sort of thing"?

Of course, sometimes that doesn't clear things up.

[windansea]

38. some new info

PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti AP) - U.S. Marines shot and killed a gunman during an outbreak of shooting at a weekend demonstration by Haitians celebrating the ouster of President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, a spokesman said Monday.

The gunfire occurred during an anti-Aristide march Sunday, prompting the Marines to return fire in the first armed action of their week-old mission to stabilize Haiti.

At least six people were killed and more than 30 injured in the worst bloodshed since Aristide fled Haiti on Feb. 29 and U.S. and French peacekeepers arrived.

snip

Many of the victims were shot with high-velocity bullets from weapons like M-16s and M-14s, said Dr. Ronald Georges.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAL4VWPKRD.html

so...Doctor confirms automatic weapons used, and one of the gunmen was killed....