Kerry Says Bush 'Stonewalling' 9/11 Probe, Intelligence Inquiries

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20040307/ap_on_el_pr/kerry

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/07/politics1727EST0540.DTL

JACKSON, Miss. - John Kerry (news - web sites) on Sunday accused President Bush (news - web sites) of "stonewalling" separate inquiries into the events leading up to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorists attacks, as well as into the intelligence that suggested Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) was hiding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (news - web sites).


Kerry, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, parried complaints by members of a federal commission investigating the attacks that Bush was resisting their efforts to get documents and question witnesses.


"Why is this administration stonewalling and resisting the investigation into what happened and why we had the greatest security failure in the history of our country?" Kerry said at a hastily arranged news conference.


"The American people deserve an answer now," Kerry said. "The immediate instinct of the Republicans and this administration was to shut it down."

more

[jbfam4]

1. Sorry,

didn't mean to dupe you.... you beat me by a minute as I was checking to see if it had been posted.

[NNN0LHI]

2. Nothing to be sorry about

I hold the world record for posting duplicates around here. :-)

Don

[leftchick]

3. Kristin Breitweiser's words as well...

"Stonewalling the Investigation"... I love it!

[sidwill]

4. COME ON PEOPLE!!

Take a minute and rate this frigin story!

Kerry just made this issue a Presidential Campaign issue and people are now going to start talking about it....to Bush's detriment.


So get up off'n your keisters, go to Yahoo and rate this mofo!

[rhino91063]

12. The ratings have been freeped!

Email the story instead to everyone you know. Then it will appear in the most emailed story!

[acmavm]

28. I agree. We need to start rating all these stories. Done

.

[proud patriot]

5. Yes ! Right On Kerry

:D

[frank frankly]

6. great, wonderful, awesome

great news!

[sidwill]

9. This is potentially huge

For the last 2 years Bush has repeatedly stonewalled the commision, first by dragging his heels, second by not fully cooperating, oh and I forgot to mention that he stacked the commision with supporters.

He has been able to basically do this while flying under the radar of widespread media scrutiny, now that Kerry has made this an issue thats over.

Combine his behavior towards the investigation and his new 9/11 exploiting campaign ad and Shrubby gots some "Splainin" to do.

[Arugula Latte]

65. Yes, Yes, Yes

I've been wondering why the hell the Democrats have let Bush get away with this. I was hoping he'd make this an issue. Hooooo-ray!

It's a new day. The Repubs don't really have experience dealing with Democrats who fight back.

[w4rma]

7. Right on target. (n/t)

[Room101]

8. So-far I'm very impressed with the Kerry camp going on the ...

offensive hitting all the right notes. Keep using those key words "stonewalling" and "worse national security failure".

[59millionmorons]

32. I agree

This is a good sign.

[Old and In the Way]

10. No surprise to me!

I knew Kerry was not going to give Bush a free pass on this issue. I suspect that this is only the opning round.

Now I cannot wait to see how the RNC starts to spin this. They'll be lots of squaking coming from the chicken roost soon. But not right now:

"Telephone calls for comment from the Bush-Cheney re-election campaign were not immediately returned."

[Octafish]

13. Bush just flooded his Depends.

The coward knows the jig is up. What's really bad for him is the Pentagon and the State Department and the CIA and the rest of the government knows Bush Knew. The unelected moron is in deep doo-doo.

[blm]

14. And he knows he's up against the BEST INVESTIGATIVE Senator in

modern history.

Can you think of any administration that deserves to face a more powerful Kerry more than this one?

[Octafish]

55. Couldn't happen to a nicer crook.

And the BFEE are calling in all their markers from the east, west, north and south somewhat to survive. The Freepers probably dream the Little Turd from Crawford will go down fighting like a cornered gangster in a 30s B movie. He'll probably end up throwing Sneer and Pickles and Poppy and Babs out the door of the burning building before facing the music himself. The coward.



Courtesy of ActiveOpposition.com

[Capablanca]

20. I would like to see your evidence

You are saying that Bush knew about 9/11. Do you realize what a massive conspiracy there would have to have been for this to be true? I have been hearing this without any evidence. I am asking for sources and evidence. I am not a believer in massive conspiracies and don't take much stock in those who do.

Having that said, I will look at facts and evidence with an open mind. So bring it on.

[chelaque liberal]

23. Bush Knew! was splashed across the front on Newsweek back in 2002

Or maybe Time. It was around May. I remember because my Republican relatives were visiting at the time and I made a point of leaving the magazine out. I article was extremely detailed.

But that isn't the point of Kerry's statement or this thread. Bush is stonewalling the investigation, that is a fact not theory, conspiracy or otherwise. This country desires answers about what happened that day.

[Capablanca]

26. Thanks for these "facts" and detailed "evidence"

Do you remember how you felt when the Republicans were going after Clinton? Do you remember believing that their pious comments about protecting the Constitution made you believe that they were being less than sincere?

I distrust using 9/11 as a political football. If Kerry pushes this too hard there could be the same backlash that hit the Republicans that were over zealous during impeachment.

Kerry should run his campaign on something other than "let's get Bush". If Americans perceive that this is the substance of his strategy then it will sour them. Americans believe in fair play. To use 9/11 on either side as a political football is disgusting.

The facts will come out in due time. There is not enough time for a complete review during this political season and Kerry knows this. This is a political ploy that will backfire just like the Bush ads.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. The only group trying to use 911 as a political football are the...

...NeoCons, and their first attempt with an ad campaign has backfired.

Tell you what, when the NeoCons agree to give all of the commissions (911, Plame-gate, Iraqi WMDs, etc.) what they want in the way of information then we should stop asking them questions about those topics. Does that sound fair to you?

Here's a reason that none of the attacks being mounted against the NeoCons will fail...the CIA has decided that Junior has to go, and they're leaking information detrimental to Junior and the NeoCons as fast as they can. And the Kerry camp is one of the recepients of the CIA info-dump.

[Capablanca]

37. Cia Oh please tell me more !!!!!

Please tell me more about this and why... I am not a believer in these interesting conspiracies but I do have to admit I enjoy reading about them. It is sort of like listening to the Art Bell show.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Okay...do you remember when Valerie Plame was "outed" by two or...

...more aides to Cheney and/or Junior? Do you remember why those White House aides decided to carry ou that plan of action? You do remember that it was to keep Wilson's mouth shut in terms of his criticisms of the NeoCons, don't you?

Did you also know that Plame's group was tracking the movement of material that could be used in the making of WMDs? Soon after Valerie Plame was "outed" and her global network exposed, former CIA personnel began appearing on television and in other media outlets demanding that whoever leaked the information on Plame be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And that law has some very serious teeth. Soon after that, the CIA formally requested that the DOJ launch a criminal investigation into who leaked Plame's name from the White House. I personally have never seen them go public with anything like this, and certainly not a direct attack on the White House.

Concurrently, articles began appearing throughout the mainstream media exposing various pieces of information about the Bush family. Prescott Bush, Junior's grandfather, was described in great detail in terms of his financial dealings with Nazi Germany from 1934 until 1942 (after the American entry into WWII), Poppy Bush's failings as a president including his links to quite a few very questionable characters, and Junior being AWOL from his Texas Air National Guard unit.

Where do you think the media got all of that information? Here's a clue...do a google search on Operation Mockingbird, and tell me what you find out.

Finally, only two other sitting presidents tried to buck the CIA, and both failed to finish their current terms in office...JFK and Nixon. The CIA wants Junior and the NeoCons out of power. Permanently.

And yes, just like the CIA gave JFK briefings on Cuba which gave JFK an edge in the debates with Nixon, Kerry's camp is being fed information detrimental to Junior and the rest of the NeoCons.

[Capablanca]

47. Ok...

Thanks...

You have me thinking now. Where do you get this information?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. I gave you some hints...the rest is up to you.

[symbolman]

38. You want facts?

Here, go to the link to my flash animation at the bottom of this post..

I've won freaking awards in both NYC and Hollywood for my work -- so feel free to pass this around..

I have a feeling that you won't even consider these to be facts.

[chelaque liberal]

42. I'm glad Kerry said it because it gets it out there.

When the Challenger exploded there was an immediate investigation. But the most serious security failure on our soil??? The investigation has been limited by time, underfunded, and the administration has refused to cooperate at every turn.

If you deny that, then ask yourself why Kissinger was originally appointed to head it and that was more than a year after the attack happened.

I want an honest investigation!

[fearnobush]

53. Hardly a comparable example.

Bush knew and the buildings flew... This is bigger than the warren commission and the boy emperor will only become more untrustworthy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. When the word "conspiracy" is mentioned, why do some...

...people like to blast away with phrases like "massive conspiracy" as if only crazy looney people would believe in any conspiracy?

Why would 911 have to be a "massive conspiracy" to make it work as LIHOP or MIHOP? Only a few people needed to know the full extent of the plan while being in a high enough position to give, or not give, a few key orders to make a chaotic situation even more chaotic.

It's funny to me that America is the only country in the world that is filled with people that seem to think that "conspiracies" only happen in other countries, never America. In this country, people have been conditioned to believe in the "lone nut gunman", or in the idea of a crazed nation launching sneak attacks.

When an assassination takes place in any country outside the U. S., the citizens of that country immediately begin to think "Who gained?", and "Who was in a position to assist the shooters?". When a terrorist attack takes place in another country, those citizens immediately ask "Who is responsible?", "How many people were involved?", and "Was it an inside job?".

Here's a website you need to study with what you say is "an open mind". Come back and tell us what you found. Pay particular attention to the amount of time between the time the FAA control towers lost all communication with each aircraft and when they eventually notified NORAD so that they could release the interceptors.

<http://www.911timeline.net/>

And how is it that Junior has told two different groups in the White House that he saw the FIRST plane hit the WTC towers, when the timeline places him in his limo, a limo that is loaded with the latest communication devices to include closed-circuit tv?

[T Bone]

59. 911 WAS a conspiracy

Three to five men on four different airliners each. That right there is proof of a conspiracy. They were definitely working together.
We just have to flesh out who else was in on it, or manipulated to LIHOP ??

Every two events is a coincidence by definition, but causes, effects, and results, converge or diverge to varying degrees.

[Mike Niendorff]

41. a small sampling of the evidence

From the old "DU1" archives :

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4320&forum=DCForumID60&archive=#63

I trust you'll take the time to check this out before commenting further.


MDN

[Capablanca]

43. No more posts tonight

I have too mush reading to do.

Thanks for the info. I will seriously read all of this with an open mind.

[0007]

51. Indeed!!

[Layman]

52. Evidence

Save your eyes and think about this. Before going into the elementary school in Florida the morning of 9/11/01 twice George W. Bush has claimed he saw the first plane crash into the WTC, "...that's some bad pilot...". Then, about 15 minutes later, while reading a story to the class children, Andrew Card interupts the president and tells him a second plane has crashed into the WTC and that there are two more hijacked planes flying around the Eastern seaboard and our commander-and-chief of the U.S. military did nothing. He didn't blink, he didn't stop his story of the little goat that could, he didn't return to the White House, he didn't take command, he didn't even rush off to a safe haven, he just continued his reading for another 30 minutes. Can you explain away this incredible lack of reaction? If you want a more dramatic rendering then instead of sifting thru all that research just watch the video. There you will see the smirking face of a conspiracist.

[DemonFighterLives]

57. It is chilling isn't it

The smirking face of a conspiracist. Welcome to DU!

[Layman]

62. Chilling... then exhilarating!

Thanks for the welcome DemonFigherLives. Now let's get the bastards!

[sal]

61. capablanca = "white boss"

Betting *'s character won't go that low is always a sucker's choice. The road of life is littered with the smoking hulks of chumps who hitched a ride with the boy king. Read on, bro.

[Octafish]

58. You better believe "Bush Knew about 9-11!"

You want some evidence? I'll give you a start:

John Ashcroft was warned of the oncoming 9-11 attacks. So, he stopped flying commercial in July 2001. When asked why he started taking government charters for his weekends in Missouri, he replied a "threat assesment had been made." When asked who the threat was from, he said, "I don't know." Here's the story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

You don't think that's why Ashcroft got all sick, is it? Nah, couldn't be. I mean, why would the 9-11 Commission want to talk to him? He didn't know anything, apart from cutting the FBI anti-terrorism budget.

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/cgi-bin/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=2712

How about some links providng EVIDENCE of Bush 9-11 foreknowledge?

http://www.hermes-press.com/keys9_11.htm

Oh heck. I'll show you were you can find lots o' links:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/index.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/

BTW: A hearty welcome to DU, Capablanca. You don't like conspiracy theories, GREAT! We talk about conspiracy FACT here.



PS: You wouldn't happen to remember Bush's August PDR briefing name, would you? Correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm going from memory of what was printed, but wasn't it: "Bin Laden Set to Strike in the United States?" That would mean Bush knew something

[catzies]

67. Add another one told not to fly - SF then-mayor Willie Brown

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/09/12/MN229389.DTL

(There's an unsubstantiated rumor Condoleeza Rice herself told Brown, but I can't findy anything conclusive on that).

[pinto]

68. you know what, Mayor Brown sure took care of business in those

first few hours.....I'd forgotten that.

[mallard]

63. Re: twin towers meltdown

Massive yes - and with alot of back-up in the way of psy-ops - like from forum posters poised in denial (typically refusing to consider the radically anomolous evidence available).

Open to debating the facts, Capablanca?

Someone's rotting in Deutch Mark.

[Beetwasher]

11. Kerry's Megaphone

This is why I'm totally psyched the primary is over early...Kerry's got a megapone now and when he says this it get's covered. So far, he's using his megaphone wisely...Now he just gets to repeat this ad nauseum for 8 LONG months!

[NNN0LHI]

15. This is on the Yahoo front page now. Thanks for voting it up

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index&cid=716&/

[pinto]

16. they've changed headline from "stonewalling" to "stalling", see link

in original message.

[NNN0LHI]

17. It still says "stonewalling" on the first two links but you are right...

...thay have changed the headline on the main Yahoo page. Wonder why?

Don

[pinto]

18. re read: looks like they needed space to include "WMD", kick!

[Markus182]

19. Great

This is excellent news. The media has been reluctant to push too hard on this issue, but they can no longer ignore it as Kerry has made it a campaign issue. Kerry seems to be choosing his words wisely as well, which is a great sign of things to come. Framing 9/11 as the nation's largest security failure takes the wind out of Bush's hopes for exploiting it as a sign of his leadership (well, it is a sign of his leadership, just not in the way he would like us to believe).

[NNN0LHI]

24. Welcome to DU Markus182

It appears that Kerry was waiting for Bush to open the door to this Pandora's box before he said anything. Bush and his minions will now be very careful with their next ads, so as not to give Kerry another opening like these ads did. Kerry must have some really sharp people working for him.

Don

[young_at_heart]

21. Where is the outrage?

The country should be furious about the stonewalling....why aren't they?

[Capablanca]

22. Because of overly anxious zealots

I think the average American is having a difficult time sorting through all of the vitriol and seething attacks to determine what is worth being concerned about and what is not. The hate filled talk and discussions about conspiracy do not connect with them. Most Americans are sensible and their experiences with zealots and conspiracy buffs have left them leery of such tactics. Therefore, perhaps it is a bit like the boy who cried wolf.

I am not arguing the point you made, I am only answering your valid question.

[Jaybird]

27. hmmm.....where have i heard this?

hmmmmmm....hey, what ya know, Ed Gillespe is a member of DU.

welcome Ed.....maybe you'll learn a thing or two here.

[Capablanca]

35. Ed Gillespe?

Who is Ed Gillespe?

[BrotherBuzz]

54. Google is your best friend

[chelaque liberal]

29. all of the vitriol and seething attacks ??????

It's more like trying to keep up with all of the truly outrageous things that administration is doing.

This week alone they are involved in something questionable in Haiti. (I have my opinion but I will state it benignly.)

They are running ads that exploit the tragedy of 9/11.
(Again, I have my opinion....)

The investigation of the CIA leak is heating up.

Report by the Pentagon of serious climate changes by 2020.

Report of some ridiculously small number of jobs created last month.

Gays marriage distraction-Oh that was last week.


You get the picture

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Interesting. You do know that Lincoln was killed by a member of a...

...group that conspired to kill him and other members of his cabinet, don't you? Did you know that the House Select Committee on Assassinations stated in their final report that JFK died as the result of a conspiracy? Did you also know that Pearl Harbor was basically set-up to be attacked so that the U. S. would have a galvanizing reason to enter WWII?

Did you also know that the word "conspiracy" is defined as two or more individuals who plan together to carry out a certain action?

Why does a conspiracy have to be "massive" as you've stated previously? Why do you personally believe that anyone that believes in conspiracies of any kind is a "zealot" or "conspiracy buff"?

[Capablanca]

46. Here is why.

I enjoy reading about these issues and find them titillating. They spark a morbid curiosity similar to the gawker at a crash site.

I have heard so many of these theories and I know that some conspiracies are true and exist. I just resist the attraction of unsubstantiated theories and distrust the moth to a flame phenomenon that they solicit in their lemming like followers.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

48. I prefer to think that the only "lemmings" are those people that...

...believe everything the NeoCons tell them.

I tend to resist the unsubstantiated theories put forth by the NeoCons and their fellow-travellers such as "Iraq has WMDs", "Osama is responsible for 911", and the ever-popular list of alleged hijackers, six of whom attended U. S. military schools.

[Arugula Latte]

66. They don't connect with

"hate filled talk" eh? Then why does rightwing hate-talk radio (Limbaugh/Savage et al) have such a huge audience? Or is it only those on the moderate/liberal side of the spectrum who have to shut up to stop offending the delicate ears of the conservatives?

[NNN0LHI]

25. I don't think any of the candidates had made an issue of this before now?

Maybe they were holding it back until the opportune time? And now is the time.

Don

[Capablanca]

31. Opportune Timing

Perhaps you are right and I am way off base....However, I think Americans will view Kerry's comments as being totally politically motivated. Especially coming right out of a primary season that saw more attacks against a sitting president than usual. I said it elsewhere on this thread that if Kerry or Bush use 9/11 for political gain it will blow up in their faces very fast.

Americans are emotionally connected to this event like no other. They see it as an event that belongs to us all and will resent it used politically. Kerry has to be careful here is all I am saying.

[59millionmorons]

34. hmmm

hmmm

[nolabels]

44. "hmmm" a "hmmm"

Sitting at Avg Rating: 3.24 with 855 votes. What is the REAL reason they want people to vote, to see how many people are paying attention or is it a comment on the editorial aspects? :evilgrin:

I voted a 5 just because I like the Mark Cuban and the Dallas Mavericks

[young_at_heart]

36. Well.........the other side of the coin........Kerry IS a politician

So.....it's only natural to discuss something that Bush politicized from the first moments and continues to do so. The press allowed this to happen and he's been capitalizing on it ad nauseum. I am furious that it has taken the Democrats this long to finally respond.

[NNN0LHI]

40. I agree. This is like walking a political mine field

Not too many candidates have navigated these political mine fields before and went on to become president. Got to have good people around you. I think Kerry does have good people. Perhaps the best and the brightest there are right now? Only time will tell.

Don

[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. I think Kerry speaks for a majority of Americans on these topics...

...it's time Junior quit backpedaling and paid the piper. He needs to answer the questions and quit lying to the American people...even some Republicans I know are wanting answers.

Bush has already tried to politically use a connection to 911, and it's blown up in his face. Big-time.

Kerry has hit all of the right notes so far...I trust him to continue to do so.

I'm also curious where you might have been when the 1996 GOP primaries were taking place? The reason I ask is that I definitely heard FAR more attacks against Clinton, Hillary, and Chelsea in 1996 than I've heard to date against Junior in 2004.

[DemonFighterLives]

56. It is about time someone stated the obvious

The Stonewaller in chief must provide some sort of answers. Why were there so many Saudis listed as hijackers, but we are banging around in Afghanistan and Iraq and Haiti? We could all see airplanes hitting the towers, but why did the buildings implode and why did *7 also fall without airplanes? Why was all reference to Saudi Arabia in the earlier report blotted out? I forget if that was the commission or a preliminary report.
The worst disaster to hit America under the knucklehead regime. He shouldn't be able to score points for that.
What ever happened to the Iraqi Weapons Declaration? The regime removed thousands of pages of that.
Kerry will do much to firm up his support with me if he keeps up the heat.

[NNN0LHI]

60. kick

[graphixtech]

64. Collective action this week

Please add YOUR voice at this important time in history!
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts.php

WORLDWIDE 9-11 PHONE, FAX, EMAIL CAMPAIGN

Tom Flocco ( TomFlocco.com ) Bill Douglas
http://tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=1
www.911Visibility.org )
PLEASE POST AND/OR EMAIL WIDELY:

There are SIX individuals who have the power to influence whether President George Bush, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman, General Richard Myers, will publicly testify under oath before the American people to explain why they sat at their desks and in a school classroom, failing to take decisive action on September 11, 2001, until after four planes attacked the United States and killed 3,000 Americans and citizens from many other countries.  This, despite knowledge of the hijackings earlier that morning before any of the four planes crashed. 

Below you will find contact numbers and questions to initiate weekly communication with those who have the over-sight responsibility, public microphone, and/or power to influence the strength of the 9-11 Commission investigation.  These actions may well determine whether those in charge on 9-11 publicly testify under oath and submit to questioning by Commission-assisted and experienced career prosecutors rather than appointed former government bureaucrats and/or legislators.  Lawyers with prosecutorial skills prepare intensely for specific areas of interrogation and will be able to elicit truth and facts via questi . . .
(much more. . . )
http://www.septembereleventh.org/alerts.php
--------------------------------------------------------
Here's my letter:
Dear Honorable :

I have been following the Independent 9-11 Commission with increasing interest. Many citizens have become aware that 9-11 is NOT a partisan political issue. Growing numbers of American citizens are realizing that the overriding concern of honest government is a fundamental matter which affects ALL Americans.

The way that President Bush has stonewalled the 9-11 investigation has been very suspicious. Instead of cooperating with this bi-partisan commission, there appears a continual obfuscation from key members of the administration.

President Bush has a duty to the American people to testify to ALL commission members and give a complete accounting of facts that he has about September 11th. His offer to appear for ONE hour is a blatant insult and slap in the face to every citizen of this country and makes a mockery of our democracy.

Americans well remember President Clinton being sworn in for a private affair, in a comparatively ludicrous and near limitless investigation. The press scrutiny that Clinton’s indescretions recieved was far more than for this adminstration’s questionable actions.

I urge you to honor your oath to the American people and take actions to call those who were in charge at the time surrounding 9-11 to testify under OATH. These people would obviously include President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, Donald Rumsfield, Gen. Richard Myers etc. It is also imperative that the Presidential Daily Briefing of August 9th be given to the Commission as evidence.

Decency also demands that President Bush be sworn in to answer the 9-11 Family Steering Committee's legitimate twenty three questions.

If this Independent 9-11 Commission is to have even a shred of credibility in the future, the people in charge of the failed security of 9-11 must be called to legally testify. Anything less from your position clearly shows a complicit weakness and looks extremely suspect to ANY Americans who are paying a modicum of attention.

Thank you for your immediate attention in this matter.

Sincerely,

[pinto]

69. thanks for the info, I will send a letter, one suggestion:

Your mention of Clinton's experience with an inquiry seems to undermine the immediate force of your statement.

The Monica issue and 9-11 are worlds apart, both in scope, importance and impact on our country, you know what I mean? They realize that.

[graphixtech]

70. thank you pinto,

sincerely appreciate your comment.

Plan to send the letter several times, so will edit that sentence out.

Faxed my letter to the six people listed today. Several times the fax lines were busy, which might be a good sign.