ACORN workers taped allegedly advising on prostitution, fraud

[Turborama]

Source: CNN

Two employees at the Baltimore, Maryland, branch of the liberal community organizing group ACORN were caught on tape allegedly offering advice to a pair posing as a pimp and prostitute on setting up a prostitution ring and evading the IRS.

The video footage — which has been edited and goes to black in some areas — was recorded and and posted online Thursday by James O’Keefe, a conservative activist. He was joined on the video by another conservative, Hannah Giles, who posed as the prostitute in the filmmakers’ undercover sting.

The video shows the pair approaching two women working at the ACORN Baltimore office and asking them for advice on how to set up a prostitution ring involving more than a dozen underage girls from El Salvador. One of the ACORN workers suggests that Giles refer to herself as a “performing artist” on tax forms and declare some of the girls as dependents to receive child tax credits.

“Stop saying prostitution,” the woman, identified by the filmmaker as an ACORN tax expert, tells Giles. The other woman tells them, “You want to keep them clean … make sure they go to school.”

=snip=

Calls to ACORN’s Baltimore offices were not immediately returned Thursday. A local spokeswoman told the Associated Press that both employees seen in the video were fired. “The portrayal is false and defamatory and an attempt at ‘gotcha journalism,’” said Scott Levenson, a spokesman at ACORN’s national offices, told CNN. “This film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed. ACORN wants to see the full video before commenting further.” The conservative filmmakers unsuccessfully attempted similar ruses at the group’s offices in Philadelphia, Los Angeles and New York, Levenson said.

Read more: http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/09/10/acorn-workers-taped-allegedly-advising-on-prostitution-fraud/

---

CNN: Salon's Joe Conason says the people who carried out this sting could have broken Maryland laws against entrapment (video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptwuwh0FB_o">Conservative filmmakers' ACORN video is "propaganda" not "journalism"

Needless to say, a quick search on YouTube shows that BecKKK is trying his utmost to smear President Obama with this.

[lapfog_1]

1. I won't be surprised when it comes out that EVERYONE

in the film was a paid actor.

Edit to add: They hired the actors, two of them then went down and volunteered at the local Acorn office, got their credentials, and then we had the "scene" play out, all scripted.

Does anyone really believe that two real Acorn community organizers would OFFER to help someone set up a CHILD PROSTITUTION sex slave ring? You couldn't PAY me enough money to offer advice to people that talk about that shit, I would be suspicious of a setup immediately (not to mention horrified).

[Indenturedebtor]

2. All it takes is a headline to make believers of those eager to believe

The Reich figured that out years ago.

[harmonicon]

3. you mean something like "Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990"?

A headline like that, or even a web address, could make a man threaten to file a lawsuit. Apart form lawsuits, what it really makes me think about is why won't Glenn Beck come out with the evidence to show that he did not rape and murder a young girl in 1990?

[bitchkitty]

4. That reminds me...

[TerribleLarryDingle]

138. I have been trying to find evidence to prove Glenn Beck is innocent

But so far I can't find any. Therefore as of now it looks like Glenn Beck is a child rapist/murderer. I will continue my quest for the truth.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

172. Perhaps you and OJ Simpson could split cab fare...

I understand he's still looking for the real killers.

:rofl:

[subcomhd]

184. Is that from the 1990 rape/murder? nt

[destes]

5. It is highly unlikely that Glenn Beck......

".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990". If he had ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990" we would have heard about it from the liberal media. Further, if he had ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990" it would have been out of character for Glenn since it is a known fact that Glenn, like so many conservatives, prefers farm animals. Thus he can rape, murder and then EAT his victim/evidence.

So it's only fair that we stifle any rumor that Glenn Beck ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990" right now before it gets repeated and people would believe/know that Glenn Beck ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990". It is beneath progressive dignity to spread the accusation/fact that Glenn Beck, alleged young girl rapist and murderer, ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990". We can only speculate as to why this important news, regarding the alleged rape and murder of "......a young girl in 1990" by Glenn Beck is being withheld from the general public. It is widely suspected by qualified individuals investigating the historic rape and murder of "......a young girl in 1990" by Glenn Beck, that the issue is being covered up by unnamed persons at the highest levels of the FOX NEWS organization. FOX NEWS officials have yet to respond to any questions about this important matter. This and other unanswered questions have many asking "WHY?"

When asked, one androgenous teen teared up, clenched his/her fists into frustrated litte balls, screaming out an impassioned plea, "why can't you just leave Glenn alone". We can only ask ourselves, why indeed............. do rumors persist that Glenn Beck ".......raped and murdered a young girl in 1990".

[zeemike]

9. I see you have a grasp of how propaganda works.

Repeat the charges over and over again as much as possable....people will only hear the headline.

[demwing]

190. Has Anyone asked Mr Beck to reveal his court documents from 1990?

Surely, if Glenn Beck did not rape and murder a young girl in 1990, he would have no problem revealing his criminal history from the period, including five years previous and another five afterward.

I, a single father with limited resources, went to the trouble to run a small poll of adults in my home, and what I found was amazing. Poll results showed that 100% of the people who responded have serious questions about whether Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990, and the same number think that if Glenn Beck raped and murdered a young girl in 1990, he should face severe punishment for his crimes. Whether Glenn Beck should be imprisoned for life for the rape and murder of a young girl in 1990, or whether Glenn Beck should be put to death for the rape and murder of a young girl in 1990, all depends on whether Glenn Beck is guilty of the rape and murder of a young girl in 1990.

Why hasn't Glenn Beck released his criminal records? What is he hiding?

[grahamhgreen]

210. Please re-post this as an OP, and on Free Republic!!! Please!

[grahamhgreen]

211. Must read!

P

[drm604]

16. I wouldn't be surprised.

Why would they even think that they could get Acorn employees to advise them on prostitution? It just seems like an odd thing to try to catch them on that would have little chance of success. So why would you try it unless the whole thing was a setup with actors, as you say?

If I was a right-winger who believed that Acorn was involved in voter fraud (which they aren't), then I would try to catch them giving advice on how to carry out voter fraud, not prostitution.

[sunnybrook]

18. then how were the employees fired?

I've read that the employees in question were fired

[lapfog_1]

24. If I wanted to make an organization look bad

first thing I'd do is infiltrate with "ringers" and then have the ringers start doing bad stuff.

Apparently, according to other news sources, this "producer" and film crew tried similar stunts with ACORN people in 5 or maybe 6 other cities before Baltimore. Maybe they figured out that just finding people that work for ACORN and trying to get them involved in something like child prostitution wasn't going to work, so they went the extra step to actually get their people hired first, then run the "sting" operation.

Anyway, it smells, and I hope the producer and minions go to jail.

[paulsby]

55. the only thing that smells is your analysis

ACORN has now fired employees at their DC office. they were caught in the same sting.

the REAL thing that smells is ACORN. for fuck's sake, TWO seperate ACORN offices (so far) were caught.

can you say CORRUPT???

[JonQ]

71. Can't be corrupt

they're with us, so it must be a conspiracy.

Everyone who agrees with you politically is saintly and just. If they ever appear otherwise it's because "those people" on the other side have manipulated the evidence to make them look bad.

Obviously that's the only possibility.

[paulsby]

75. you pretty much hit the nail on the head

just based on the first story, if this was some kind of republican office subject of a sting doing these things, people would have been UP IN ARMS.

but since it was ACORN, it was conspiracy theories, ENTRAPMENT (lol), INTIMIDATION etc. etc.

because ACORN is seen as "good", and they are frequently the target of republicans (the "bad"), in any situation where a republican scheme outs ACORN corruption, it CANNOT be true.

fwiw, it STILL amazes me. that these women would actually give advice to a pimp on how to evade taxes and set up his child prostitution ring is AMAZING to me.

[ruggerson]

95. +1

[No Elephants]

155. Please see Reply 152. ACORN may or may not be corrupt, but nothing in this

story proves ACORN is corrupt.

Also, I have seen plenty of posts here calling for everything short of the guillotine for Democrats alleged to have done wrong, even on flimsy stories, despite the presumption of innocence we are supposed to give everyone.

Too bad you seem to have missed them all.

[No Elephants]

154. Please see Replies 152 and 155.

[No Elephants]

152. There is no indication whatever that ACORN trained or told its employees to

give child prostitution rings advice on how to succeed in that business. To say ACORN is corrupt because two of its many employees behaved stupidly is a stretch. Is ACORN legally responsible for the actions of its employees in a technical way? Yes. But making the leap from these fools to saying ACORN is corrupt is a stretch. Careless in hiring and training, MAYBE. We have heard only one sides of the story so far. But, there has yet to be any showing that ACORN was telling or encouraging its employees to behave this way.

[24601]

46. In Baltimore, two ACORN workers captured on tape have been

fired - that would seem to confirm that they weren't actors.

Looks like the screwed the pooch on this one. But the one doing the taping might be in trouble too since Maryland has a dual consent requirement - remember Linda Tripp & Monica Lewinsky?

But this was in person rather than over the phone and we are waiting to hear what the rules actually are.

[polpilot]

98. Advising on prostitution should ONLY be allowed by Congress.

[24601]

100. Certainly if you do it on the floor of the House or Senate, you'd

have immunity from the speech and debate clause. My memory may be flawed, but didn't the courts extend that to committee hearings as well?

Go Hos!

[KansDem]

179. Didn't Cheney tell Leahy to "go **** yourself?"

I don't think that's prostitution (unless you're so incredibly undesirable that you have to pay yourself...), but still, it appears you are correct in acknowledging Congress's role in advising on this sensitive subject...

[StreetKnowledge]

200. At least Leahy could probably get some.

Cheney......I don't think so. ;)

[mzmolly]

102. That doesn't mean they weren't paid by the RNC

to infiltrate the organization and pose as employees.

[No Elephants]

147. How does a firing prove they were not actors???

Most on this thread are certain of what happened, one way or another. I am not. However, I don't see how the firing supports your point.

[paulsby]

54. boy, were you proved wrong lol.. EPIC

ACORN has now fired FOUR employees. turns out the sting at the WA office ALSO uncovered corruption.

sorry, but EPIC fail... prediction category...

[mzmolly]

103. Just because ACORN hired them doesn't mean the RNC didn't pay

the people in question to partake ?

“The portrayal is false and defamatory and an attempt at ‘gotcha journalism,’” said Scott Levenson, a spokesman at ACORN’s national offices, told CNN. “This film crew tried to pull this sham at other offices and failed. ACORN wants to see the full video before commenting further.”

[No Elephants]

150. D.C., not WA.

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. So you're saying that FOUR black women would take money to support a right wing smear

agains ACORN? You're saying that those same four women would allow themselves to be TAPED helping two white people cheat the IRS in order to set up a brothel staffed with underaged South American girls?

Is that what you're saying? Does that not seem like a stretch of immense proportions?

[JonQ]

73. Occam's razor

Either A) the rightwing infiltrated these people years ago in to ACORN in order for them to pretend to give really terrible and illegal advice to a pimp, who was secretely working with them, in order to discredit the organization well after the election was over and it would make no difference, or B) ACORN hired some douchebags.

Obviously it can't be B, so it must be A.

[mzmolly]

104. The entire situation seems unbelievable to me.

It's a stretch no matter how you look at it.

[No Elephants]

167. You are way off base in implying that the color of someone's skin determines whether or not

they can be bribed to screw ACORN for Republicans. However, even that assumes that the employees would have realized the Giles and O'Keefe were on a political mission and that their statements would screw ACORN.

You do make a good point about allowing themselves to be taped. However, even that is possible, depending upon what the people who allegedly bribed them told them. Point is, we have only one side. We have not heard from the fired employees. As far as ACORN, so far, there is no evidence that ACORN in any way encouraged the employees to behave that way. So, implicating ACORN is also a stretch.

My observation is that most people on this thread are quite willing to stretch (and leap to conclusions)--but only in one direction, be it for ACORN or against ACORN. Bottom line: I think most people on this thread had their minds made up about ACORN long before they ever saw this story.

[Turborama]

6. BecKKK interviewing the girl that says she set it all up and acted as the 'prostitute'

Cross post from the videos forum:

Here he is interviewing the girl that says she set it all up and acted as the 'prostitute'. She seems to have got her lines wrong because she says she was jogging along one day and "saw an acorn" and said to herself "hmmm, I don't like them". BecKKK also introduces the video at the begining and lies that they were talking about 13 year old girls when his very own subtitles say that "there are 13 of them".

There's something very fishy about this interview and the truth needs to be found about who was really behind this entrapment. Considering his ongoing campaign to smear ACORN, it's quite possible that it's got BecKKK and/or one of his cohort's hoof prints on it somewhere along the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhUIoSBq4tw

[Cass]

219. I thought you were being sarcastic about her jogging and seeing an acorn then deciding she didn't

like them. But NO, she actually said that! What a bizarre thing to say.


:wtf:

[Turborama]

220. LOL, I couldn't make that up if I tried.

Bizarre is the right word. She was obviously coached on what to say so that she could make it look like it was all her idea and her money behind it but fluffed the 'story' up big time. You can see in BecKKK's eyes that he's thinking to himself, "I really hope she sticks to the script... oh no... she didn't just say that did she?"

[Ian David]

7. Now, if the ACORN workers had taped this, and brought THEIR tape to the authorities FIRST...

... then it would be the "Conservative Activists" getting arrested.


Technically, unless POLICE do this sort of thing, then BOTH groups broke the law.

The cops should arrest EVERYONE-- just like they do with the lady who goes into a crack house, brings the crack to the cops, and says, "See? They're selling crack in there! Now go arrest them!"


In this case, BOTH sides were conspiring to commit a felony.


Also...

However, authorities said that under Maryland law, such undercover video may not admissible in court as evidence.

[Wizard777]

17. It can be used as evidence of illegal surveillance.

Since they publicly posted it. It can also be used as Evidence of the "pimp" and "prostitute" were conspiring to engage in an international child prostitution ring. These people were seeking this same advice out in California. So they're probably bringing the kids from El Salvador into the USA through California. They may also want to Brief the El Salvadorian Attorney General on this. Lets hope they haven't been to El Salvador.......yet. Under Maryland law they can't get any more than 25 years just for conspiring to commit human trafficking of minors. According to the plans laid out on the tape. It would be 13 counts of conspiring to commit human trafficking of a minor. If the sentence isn't concurrent. That's 325 years. We sent a cop to jail for 350 years for robbing drug dealers. So I hope they don't think the shadow of kind of unauthorized law enforcement sting will get them any slack here in Maryland.

The ladies that were fired can also sue them for their damages stemming from the illegal surveillance. Invasion of privacy, loss of income, etc.

[paulsby]

59. there is no "invasion of privacy"

in a BUSINESS TRANSACTION at a FEDERALLY FUNDED OFFICE.

please research case law under "right to privacy"

this was not a private conversation.

it may be true they violated maryland's two party consent law. i haven't read it.

it depends on the exceptions, etc. my state has several exceptions.

regardless, that lawsuit would be an EPIC fail.

i love how you try to portray these SCUM (and yes,a woman who would help a child sex trafficker evade taxes and set up a business IS a scum) as victims of an "invasion of privacy"

they weren't in their home or having a private conversation. they were in an office conducting business, that has a public applcation

[Wizard777]

80. Actually the wiretap is the LEAST of their worries.

There is also misrepresentation of identity under the pretenses of gaining services. This is fraud. Then comes the inchoate crimes Conspiracy to commit human trafficking of minors. Conspiracy to operate a house of prostitution. Conspiracy to receive earnings from prostitution. Sentencing for inchoate crimes cannot exceed the maximum for the actual crime. So they could be looking at 25 years just for each of the 13 counts of conspiracy to commit human trafficking of a minor. I've been Pouring over COMAR. I can't find the I have a video camera and post to youtube exemption to any of Maryland's laws. We can't proceed against the coconspirators without also proceeding against the conspirator. In this O'Keefe and Giles are the conspirators and the Acorn workers are the coconspirators. The charging documents must contain the name of both conspirator and coconspirator to be valid.

[anigbrowl]

83. Please tell me this is satire

because if not, it's the most stupid thing I've ever read at DU.

[Wizard777]

90. No it's not and even to some extent former NJ Superior Court Judge Andrew Nepolitano agrees with me.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549001,00.html"> FOX Link Warning:2 ACORN Employees Fired, Could Face Criminal Charges

Napolitano said the worker could also face charges for criminal conspiracy, though each charge would require a heavier burden to prove: a so-called "act of furtherance" — a concrete move that makes the conspiracy active.
Napolitano outlined eight crimes the ACORN worker could potentially have committed that could bring a total sentence of 24 years in prison, including criminal facilitation and conspiracy to:
• (a) commit prostitution
• (b) operate a prostitution ring
• (c) file false documents with taxing and other government authorities
• (d) file false documents with a bank

What Nepolitano's legal analysis fails to take into account is that the Primary Conspirators initiating the conspiracy is O'Keefe and Giles. The Acorn workers are coconspirators that were enlisted to provide material and intellectual support for a child prostitution ring. That is the concrete move that makes the conspiracy active. O'Keefe and Giles has both promoted and facilitated the plan to operate a house of child prostitution in violation of Maryland's laws. They have met the burden for the charge of the Inchoate Crime of Conspiracy in the state of Maryland. Also Maryland cannot charge or indict the Acorn workers as Coconspirators without also charging or indicting the conspirators. That is O'Keefe and Giles. Who were nice enough to film their Inchoate Crime and post it on Youtube to facilitate their prosecution. Welcome to America's Dumbest Criminals.

[24601]

99. The damage here will not be legal proceedings but instead will

be the ultimate political fallout. Once ACORN becomes politically radioactive , their influence is gone and being associated will taint candidates & officeholders.

ACORN has already been excluded from working the 2010 Census - and that's just the 1st shoe to fall. Unless ACORN is squeaky clean, and intuition says that it isn't, then they may have seen their last taxpayer dollar.

[Cid_B]

170. Winnah!!!! Ding Ding Ding!

nt

[mzmolly]

109. Sounds like loads of tax preparers across the nation

could be charged with crimes.

[Wizard777]

112. If they would have paid the 50.00 they would have a case on the tax advice.

They were acting as tax consultants. A consultant is only liable for the advice they provide when they are paid for that advice. They also would have been liable as tax preparers if they had filled out and signed tax forms. But not until they sign the forms. That is where they attest under the penalty of perjury. Until they sign it's just a scratch pad subject to revision.

[w4rma]

118. So, a seperate set of laws applies to tax preparers? You lost your credibility with me with that. nt

[Wizard777]

120. It's consultants in general. A consultant is only liable for the advice they have been paid for.

They are also only liable for that advice if you follow it to the T. Any alterations, additions, or omissions also relieves them of liability. You are no longer following their plan. You are now following your plan based in part on their plan and they are not liable for your plan.

[mzmolly]

126. Tax preparers decide not to hear various things on a regular basis.

Don't get me wrong, these women were way beyond the norm. But, I think an undercover investigation of this nature at many tax prep. businesses, would merit like results?

[Wizard777]

134. Tax jokes usually are in bad tatste.

If a hooker get's a standing ovation from Mr. Johnson. Can I write her off as an entertainment expense? Only if she get a standing ovation from Mr johnson. If not you write her off as a dependant of Mr. Viagra.

Sometimes I take my accountant vegetables from my garden. He says I see you're entitled to farm subsidies. We laugh. I say, okay let's get down to business. Letting him know he's now on the clock and being paid for his advise. Now about those farm subsidies. You don't want to do that they'll put you in jail is his official advice. Until we see the whole video. We don't know something like that didn't happen.

[mzmolly]

139. Exactly!

:hi:

[Wizard777]

122. Does Acorn collect private information and promise confidentiality?

Yes they do. So O'Keefe and Giles should have declared the camera to allow Acorn to provide for the privacy concerns of their other clients. Hanna Giles expresses her own privacy concerns in the New York Video.

Because of their handling of personal, private and sensitive information of their clients Acorn has a reasonable right to expect privacy in their offices. I think SCOTUS will agree. Slap the cuffs on them. If not I'm off to the DMV to secretly film personal, private and sensitive information. Not Really, but you get my drift.

[timesaretough]

123. Where's the outrage?

Just curious on why you would side with an institution that promotes illegal activity? Where is the outrage against illegal activity with our taxpayer money? This just baffles me! I don't care who does the illegal crap in this country, they should have to answer for it. Worse - if using my money to do it! I just don't understand the mentality throughout this thread. We should be concerned about going after all corruption in companies/institutions that are using stimulus/taxpayer money as well as any government official that is benefiting themselves rather than us or those we wish to help out with our money. I'm still shaking my head!

No, lets just go after the people that expose the corruption - way to go!

[Wizard777]

132. Yes where is the outrage? Acorn did not promote illegal activity. They facilitated it.

Acorn did not approach O'Keefe and Giles with the conspiracy. O'Keefe and Giles approached Acorn to enlist them in a criminal conspiracy that promotion of the criminal conspiracy to run a house of child prostitution. Being there seeking housing that they claim will be used as a house of child prostitution facilitates the crime and the Acorn employees facilitated receiving earnings from prostitution by rendering a Tax Strategy for those earnings. The only thing we need to prove to charge them with Criminal conspiracy in Maryland is proving the intent to promote and facilitate a crime. The video does that. The wiretap stuff is just the tip of the iceberg. They should have thought twice about comming to Maryland to play their lil child prostitution game. Because when it comes to child welfare in Maryland and even El Salvador. WE DON'T PLAY!

[timesaretough]

140. Seems to me that they did

This country sickens me! No wonder our children think they need to pay to play!

[Wizard777]

144. If they had provided them with a house to use for this. THEN Acorn is promoting (Advancing.)

Otherwise they are just facilitating (making easier.)

[JonQ]

74. A question

when michael moore and other film makers use the exact same procedure to make CEOs and politicians look bad, do you complain about their privacy being invaded?

[Wizard777]

79. Has he done this in Maryland? I wouldn't advise him to try it.

[DeltaLitProf]

91. Since his camera was visible and since CEOs and politicians are public figures

Moore was breaking no law and the CEOs and politicians knew they were being taped. As public figures being asked about their conduct of their office they also are unable to sue for invasion of privacy.

[JonQ]

96. Ah, so CEOs

are public figures, open to scrutiny, but people working for a national, public enterprise like ACORN which recieves federal funding are private citizens whose privacy must be respected.

And as intrapment really only applies to law enforcement officers I think these guys are in the clear.

Think about this for a second: they wanted to help this guy set up an underage prostitution ring (and get his full tax benefits for it) and the thing that makes you angry is that their privacy wasn't held tantamount.

Could you even imagine having this same reaction if the situation was reversed?

[No Elephants]

148. You seem to be ignoring that Moore does not hide the fact that he is filming. And, yes, it

well may be that public figures have less privacy under privacy case law than do private citizens. When you seek out the attention of the public, different rules apply.

(Note: This post is about Moore and about the logic of the argument. I have no clue whether there is merit to these claims about ACORN or not.)

[JonQ]

173. Wouldn't people working for a federally funded agency

be considered public figures? Or at least, more so than people working for entirely privately held companies?

[paulsby]

57. not in my precinct

"The cops should arrest EVERYONE-- just like they do with the lady who goes into a crack house, brings the crack to the cops, and says, "See? They're selling crack in there! Now go arrest them!"

i wouldn't arrest a lady who did that.

i'd write up the case report and forward to the prosecutors. that would be a dumb arrest. but apparently, you speak for all cops and what they would do?

[Ian David]

69. I've seen it on the TV show "Cops." n/t

[paulsby]

72. right. so you extrapolate from ONE incident, and assume that's what happens

routinely. ok, i can see why you thought that. it's logical. but, i would not do it, and most cops i talked to wouldn't. and yes, i know COPS is real. i've BEEN on COPS. in the background on one case. i had a friggin' SWEET incident that should have made it but the guy wouldn't sign the release.

did you know everytime you see some guy (or girl) acting moronic or whatever on COPS that they actually SIGNED A RELEASE?

that blows my mind. people are amazing

it doesn't therefe follow that this would be par for the course for a police officer. i asked some guys at roll call about it (a hypothetical) and few would arrest for such a thing.

but i think that's kewl that that was on an episode of COPS (tm)

[Ian David]

76. Thanks for setting the record straight. n/t

[paulsby]

81. n/p nt

[Ian David]

82. Granted, I think it is stupid that the woman I saw on COPS got arrested for this.

But I think you understand, that when the police officers on COPS allow this stuff to be broadcast, many civilians assume that what they are seeing is Standard Operating Procedure.

After all, both the criminals AND the cops have to sign a release.

I have naturally (and perhaps falsely) assumed that if the cops on patrol sign the release, they are confident that other law enforcement won't ridicule or object to the actions of the officers that gets broadcast.

For example, we don' see police fucking prostitutes on COPS (Unless people have COPS confused with Reno 911).

Here's how I remember the episode:

1) Woman has been complaining about crack-house next door.
2) Nobody has raided crack house.
3) Police have been promising woman they were going to send undercover agent to crack house.
4) Woman gets fed-up, goes to crack house, buys crack, calls cops.
5) Woman brings crack to cops and says, "I bought this crack in that crack house. Go arrest them."
6) Woman arrested by cops for possession of crack.

Personally, if I were a cop, I have to admit I would have arrested the woman. I wouldn't have cuffed her though, and I wouldn't have treated her as a criminal. Yes, I would have read her the Miranda rights.

I would have brought her to the station, un-cuffed, in the FRONT seat of the squad car.

I would have asked her to submit to a drug test. If she tested clean, I would have let her go, and given her a summons to appear before the judge for possession. \


If she tested positive, I would have held her pending arraignment. If I was absolutely certain there was no chance the woman was a drug user or a member of a rival gang upset someone was selling drugs in her territory, I would have just given her a summons to appear before the judge without arresting her.

Let the judge sort out if she did wrong, but do NOT automatically throw an informant in jail until the judge sorts it out. If nothing else, it at least gets the issue of the crack house in front of a judge who can issue a warrant.

I don't know if that's possible or wrong. I'm a civilian. It just seems to me, personally, to sort of make sense. Tormenting informants, how ever misguided or inept, seems like a bad strategy for encouraging more informants.

What we see on shows like COPS presents to us civilians a picture that we automatically assume is the status-quo of how police officers generally operate, and of what is considered "best practices."

[paulsby]

85. i think it's stupid too but...

but...

"Personally, if I were a cop, I have to admit I would have arrested the woman. I wouldn't have cuffed her though, and I wouldn't have treated her as a criminal. Yes, I would have read her the Miranda rights.

I would have brought her to the station, un-cuffed, in the FRONT seat of the squad car"

if you did that in my dept., you would be disciplined, possibly suspended. and if you were the opposite sex of the woman (iow if you are a man) and you transported an ARRESTEE in the front seat of your car, you DEFINITELY would be suspended. maybe even fired.

most police dept's have similar procedures. i've worked for 3. in all 3, this would be multiple violations

it would also expose the police dept (and arguably yourself depending on qualified immunity decisions) to IMMENSE civil liability

I would have asked her to submit to a drug test. If she tested clean, I would have let her go, and given her a summons to appear before the judge for possession.

"I would have asked her to submit to a drug test. If she tested clean, I would have let her go, and given her a summons to appear before the judge for possession."

i;m not aware of any such instant drug test (for use) that is available. if we are testing toxicology, we must drive somebody to the hospital and have a medical professional draw blood, then submit the sample to the state lab.

iow, not practical.

"Let the judge sort out if she did wrong, "

the determinant of "wrong" would be (in almost all cases, a jury). a prosecutor has the discretion not to charge, and a cop has the discretion (often) in NOT arresting AND not submitting preferred charges.

a judge can rule on PC, but PC is not the issue here. it's more a "in the best interests of justice" thang, which is not a question for the judge.

the crucial elements in crimes are the Mens Rea (guilty mind). iow, intent matters- a lot. what the woman did was profoundly stupid, but was it criminal - or more correctly - would the interest of society and the spirit and letter of the law be best enforced by ARRESTING and charging her? i would say unemphatically - no

[Ian David]

86. I've been transported in the front seat twice.

I didn't realize it was such a big no-no.

But granted, I wasn't suspected of a crime.

I suppose I should be glad that I don't have a very intimate relationship with the criminal justice system, in any case.

[paulsby]

87. yes, that makes all the difference

we CAN (although most officers i know usually do not) transport NON arrestees in the front seat.

we would NEVER transport a non-arrestee handcuffed. THAT would be a civil rights violation

but whether he/she is in the back seat or front is discretionary.

i have so much crap on my front seat anyway... i can use that excuse (there is no room). when i have a citizen ride a long, i spend the time to clear out my front seat pre-shift. when i had COPS ride with me, they had camera guy in the front seat, and sound guy in the back. the best part of riding w/COPS was not having to transport arrestees.

and i (grudgingly) lol admit that COPS might act a little differently when they are on COPS. it's kind of like the heisenberg principle. observation necessarily changes the experiment. in the case of a cop who KNOWS every single thing he is doing may be on tape, he may tend to ham it up more (or less) than normal, be a little stiff or more by the book, etc.

it's unavoidable. all in all, though. the show is very realistic

for example, robbery just occurred. we have the victim at the scene and an officer detains a possible suspect 1 mile down the road (matches description)

we would transport the victim/witness to the scene to make a field ID (if we transported the suspect, it could be ruled a constructive arrest and if we only had Reasonable suspicion, not PC, a false arrest, etc.)

that would be perfectly appropriate to transport in the front seat.
our dept. has a policy. handcuffs for ALL arrestees in the back (unless medically necessary to be in the front), and transport in the REAR of the cruiser. we also have to call off mileage for opposite sex transports.

these may seem heavy handed for really minor arrests, but generally speaking, we don't MAKE minor arrests anyway. minor stuff gets a warning or a ticket. but even a minor WARRANT that requires transport MUST be thoroughly searched, handcuffed, etc.

this is in everybody's best interests.

and from a profiling aspect, we don't want cops handcuffing SOME arrestees and not others. that smacks of favoritism. for example, not handcuffing women, but handcuffing men would open (rightly so) the police to much criticism. it's not much different from racial profiling

some people might think it's nuts to handcuff (for example) a 70 yr old guy who had a warrant for something piddly.

i kind of agree. it SEEMS stupid, but i also think that policies that do NOT let officers make judgment calls like that for this type of thing are in the interest of safety and fairness. i also recall a case where an officer was shot by a 70's yr old guy he had arrested for a minor offense and was transporting in the back. unhandcuffed.

[No Elephants]

153. To be guilty of committing a crime, you do not have to have a specific intent

to commit a crime.

I have no idea if giving this sort of advice is a crime or not. If it is, they are guilty of the crime, unless they can prove retardation or insanity or some other valid defense. They cannot plead they did not realize they were breaking the law. "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

[No Elephants]

151. In your example, the woman complaining about the drug house next door did not

masquerade as anyone but herself and the drugging went on without her instigation. So, the example does not apply to this story.

[Wizard777]

92. I witnessed something very similar to this.

A Guardian Angel (vigilante group)stopped a guy and searched him for drugs. They found some Marijuana. They held him for police. The police arrived the GA says I found these drug on this guy. The cop asked the guy, are these your drugs? The guy said, no. The cop said okay you're free to leave. Then he turned to the GA and said, well I tried. But you are under arrest for possession of Marijuana. In my report I'm going to have to write that when I arrived on the scene I found you in possession of marijuana. YOU ARE NOT A COP. It is illegal for you to possess marijuana at any time for any reason.

Now in your scenario. If the girl has contacted you first. You are in essence making a controlled buy. You must first certify that she has no drugs on her before sending her in to make the buy. If you do not once she comes out the only thing you can prove in court is that she was in possession of drug when she came out of the house. You cannot prove that the drugs actually came from the house. So the only person you can prove that was in possession of drugs is the girl. In Maryland our drug laws are must enforce. You cannot use discretion. You must arrest her for the possession.

[paulsby]

101. false analysis in my state, though

in brief, i don't have to arrest ANYBODY for possession, even IF there is probable cause to do so.

it's a discretionary arrest.

the only mandatory arrests we have in our states are in the field of domestic violence. and fwiw, for several of those offenses, i think it's BAD POLICY to MANDATE arrests, for much the same reason that i think mandatory minimums are bad policy. but that's another issue.

so, at least in MY state, your analysis fails.

also, this was not a controlled buy because she is NOT acting as your AGENT.

you did not tell her to do what she did, nor even imply it.

so, it doesn't fall under that criterion either.

of course it is true that you probably cannot determine (probable cause) that the drugs CAME from the crack house, as she claimed. but it doesn't therefore follow that you are certain (or at least reasonably certain ) that she is lying. if i had stopped her , found the drugs, and then she came up with that excuse, i would disbelieve her.

if she walked into the station and turned them over, with that story, i would be confident enough that she was telling the truth, that i would not arrest her.

but is she in possession?

yes. you are 100% right. of course i never said any different. i don't have to arrest for possession, and on MANY occasions, i have not.

[Wizard777]

111. Different laws in different states.

But Maryland's CDS Laws are shall enforce. As an Officer your possession is only legal in the lawful performance of your duties. If you don't arrest her. At that point your possession of the drugs are illegal. We like bright lines. On drugs we like leave the discretion to the jury. Their discretion is very broad. They can even disagree with the law. In Maryland juries are judges of fact and law. Another reason we it this way is because we've had problems with cops using their police powers to relieve people of their drugs and use or resell them. We sent one cop to jail for 350 years for doing this. Most of that time came from weapons charges. Having his service weapon on him while he was stealing (armed robbery) the dealers drugs and money. We've also had cops take drugs from person A and not arrest them. Then later they charge Person B in another location with having the drugs they took from person A. Shall enforce eliminates that. It's an anti corruption measure.

[paulsby]

125. i don't like bright lines with stuff like this

this is the perfect example of the kind of case where i would use discretion to NOT arrest. if the prosecutor has a hard on, HE/SHE can charge her. i doubt they would, because it simply doesn't meet the furtherance of justice fwiw.

i have seen cops often allow suspects to dispose of small amounts of MJ that they are caught with.

this is NOT illegal nor unethical in my state. that;s a good thing imo.

if you have problems with corruption, thats another issue. i have never seen anything close to what you talk about, and i've been in 20 yrs. i have seen incompetence, cowardice (inexcusable), poor judgment, etc. but never corruption

[Wizard777]

136. In NOLA the some of the police ran the local drug ring.

They were even carrying out execution on duty. In the case that broke the ring. The ring sent a thug to carry out a hit on a couple that owed them money. The girl got away and called police. Unfortunately the 911 operator that took the call was part of the ring and knew about the hit. She dispatched another officer who was also part of the hit. He went to teh location and carried out the hit on duty and in uniform.

This why bright lines are needed. It also helps preserve the integrity of chain of evidence. If I were a defense attorney (I'm not) in a drug case of someone you did arrest. I would ask you if have ever used your discretion to not arrest someone from frug poseession. Yes I have. What happened to those drugs? I made them dispose of them. How does this court know that? How does the court know these aren't those drugs you have diverted to this arrest? We've also had Cop caught red handed framing people with drugs they found on a park bench. They were left there and reported by IAD as a sting just to see what the officer would do with them. But that case never went to trial because IAD was burglarized by an IAD officer and many cases against corrupt officers were destroyed. Including that one.

[paulsby]

146. NOLA is a case in and of itself

it's a national laughingstock and has been so for LONG before katrina fwiw.

i disagree with your rationale as to why such bright lines are NEEDED, but i appreciate your analysis. the reality is that IF a cop wanted to flake somebody, those bright lines aren't going to stop it.

i believe you hire good people, you use extremely invasive extensive background, psychological, credit checks, etc. you do not lower your standards (as DC metro did several years ago to increase racial diversity), and you pay cops a decent wage.

new orleans pays (or least when i looked into it) paid their cops a ridiculousy low salary.

like i said, i've never seen ANY kind of corruption. the stuff i've seen has mostly been misfeasance, not malfeasance

but good post, regardless

[No Elephants]

166. Federal, state and local governments can raise taxes to pay salaries that attract good people.

ACORN depends on donations and grants.

Besides, no government salary is going to compete with what people can make by being crooked; and it is impossible to screen out people who can be tempted in the future by lots of money, especially if they run into severe financial difficulty. So, while screening and fair wages are always great things, they are not going to prevent corruption.

Hit man cops, though? I have no words.

[paulsby]

171. it is true

that no govt. salary can compete with what can make with being crooked.

but let's deal with reality.

my agency pays me about 75k. that's with no overtime, and with GREAT benefits (100% medical paid for, generous other benefits, etc.). with overtime, making over 100k is a snap.

new orleans culture of corruption came about when they paid particularly abysmal salaries. it is a LOT easier for crooked (piece of shit) cops to justify corruption, when they are paid crap wages.

when cops are paid fairly, it's much less likely to occur.

i just checked and a PO I with NOPD is now paid 42k a year. not that bad. but the culture is already ingrained.

[mzmolly]

107. We do not know if these woman reported these people

to police or not.

[Wizard777]

113. We also don't know if they had heard about their attempts at other offices.

Maybe they were humoring the pimp and prostitute in attempt to gain more information about the child prostitution ring they were seeking advice on. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the workers that were fired.

[mzmolly]

128. My thoughts as well.

:hi:

[Cass]

8. An anti-choice group did this same thing to Planned Parenthood clinics.

Since 2006, Rose and a friend have been approaching Planned Parenthood clinics pretending to be underage girls, pregnant by older men, seeking an abortion. Their aim: to catch a Planned Parenthood staffer or volunteer violating the law by counseling the young girls to lie about the ages of their adult boyfriends. The videos, according to the Los Angeles Times are then “boiled down to five minutes, with portentous music and fast cuts to heighten the drama,” and posted both to Rose’s LiveAction.org Web site and YouTube.
http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/140823/lila_rose:_the_new_darling_of_anti-choice_right-wingers/

[Turborama]

10. Yes,and she went to the same training institute as Rove

Another x post...

Getting closer to finding a link between her and BecKKK/Faux/The GOP...

Anti-Choice Abortion Warriors Have a New Poster Girl
By Bill Berkowitz, IPS News. Posted May 30, 2009.

Rose's attack on Planned Parenthood has inspired anti-abortion activists all across the country. One fascinating aspect of her story is how quickly she has become connected to the broader Christian conservative movement, receiving legal and public relations support, education training, philanthropic grants, financial awards, and a tonne of publicity from longtime conservative media operations.

Since 2006, Rose has been going into Planned Parenthood clinics pretending to be a young teenager impregnated by an older man. She described her work by saying that she goes into these clinics in order "to illustrate the abuses and the lawlessness that goes on inside these clinics regularly." Rose tries to entice a Planned Parenthood staff or volunteer to violate the law by telling her to lie about the ages of their adult boyfriends.

=snip=

Rose grew up in San Jose, California, was home-schooled and later attended a part-time Christian school and a junior college. She founded Live Action when she was 15 years old, giving anti-abortion presentations at schools and to youth groups. Over the past few years, she attended workshops at the Leadership Institute, a Virginia-based educational foundation that teaches conservatives how to polish their communication skills.

While a freshman at UCLA, she and James O'Keefe came up with the idea to infiltrate clinics. O'Keefe was the founder of The Rutgers Centurian, a conservative magazine published at New Jersey's Rutgers University.

Full article: http://www.alternet.org/sex/140347/anti-choice_abortion_warriors_have_a_new_poster_girl

Is it simply a coincidence that she went to the same "Training Institute" as Rove...?

The Leadership Institute

The Leadership Institute is a Virginia based training organisation for potential conservative political leaders.
According to the groups website The Leadership Institute is "the premier training ground for tomorrow's conservative leaders. Conservative leaders, organizations and activities rely on the Institute for the preparation they require for success."

"Since 1979 the Institute's unique seminars and workshops have enrolled more than 61,000 students and taught them how to win. Each year hundreds of Institute graduates obtain positions of influence in public policy because of their Leadership Institute training," its website states.<1>

=snip=

Past Students
Mitch McConnell: U.S. Senator from Kentucky
Jim Gilmore: former governor of Virginia
Karl Rove: Bush 43 political strategist<2>
James Guckert: Talon News "reporter"
David McIntosh: Congressman from Indiana
Mark Souder: Congressman from Indiana
JoAnn Davis: Congresswoman from Virginia
Joe Wilson: Congressman from South Carolina
Grover Norquist: President, Americans for Tax Reform
Ralph Reed: former Executive Director Christian Coalition
Jason Miller: Young conservative leader

Full entry: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Morton_Blackwell_Leadership_Institute

[Cass]

11. Whoa....and I see that Joe Wilson was a student also!! nt

[paulsby]

60. who cares WHAT institute she went to?

it doesn't affect the fact that she uncovered unbelievably corrupt practice.

[suffragette]

130. More on James O'Keefe

Also affiliated with the Leadership Institute:

http://www.yuricareport.com/GOPorganizations/MyRightWingDegreeFromLeadershipInsti.html

The Rutgers Centurion is a conservative monthly that got off the ground this fall with institute help. Rutgers student James O'Keefe founded the magazine after coming across a conservative publication at Tufts. "I said, why don't we have this?" O'Keefe remembers. He taught himself a page-layout program and got in touch with the Leadership Institute, which dispatched a staffer to take him and his coeditors to dinner at an upscale local brewery. The institute gave O'Keefe books on starting a publication, awarded him a $500 "Balance in Media Grant," and suggested never-fail places on campus to ferret out liberal excess. "They were really excited," O'Keefe recalls.

The Rutgers Centurion has since analyzed faculty campaign contributions that favored John Kerry over George W. Bush 104 times over, and it accused one of Rutgers' most esteemed alumni, African-American author and actor Paul Robeson, of being a Stalinist. The magazine has published poetry about abortion from a fetus's point of view and run allegations of prejudice against Condoleezza Rice, "The Black Woman Liberals Love to Hate."


On looking a bit more, found this:
http://www.cpac.org/agenda_30207.html
Conservative Victories with New Media
Empire Ballroom
John Ziegler, KFI
Matt Sheffield, NewsBusters.org/Media Research Center
Erick Erickson, RedState.org
James O'Keefe, The Leadership Institute
David All, David All Group
Moderator: Rob Bluey, The Heritage Foundation


So, that would be the panel he was on. I'd venture since he was there the day, he went to some of the other sessions, hosted by quite the gallery of RW'ers, including:
Malkin, Cornyn, Coulter, Oliver North, Liddy and on and on.

Found another item from that day at http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/03/blogging_to_vic.php

Guess who was in the audience for the panel O'Keefe was on: None other than Jeff Gannon.

http://hotlineoncall.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/03/blogging_to_vic.php

Pushed back to half and hour due to the crush to see Rudy Giuliani’s speech in the main convention hall, Townhall VP Chuck DeFeo kicked off CPAC’s “Conservative Victories with New Media” panel by introducing the Heritage Foundation’s Rob Bluey who asked each panel member to share their new media conservative victories.

~snip~

James O’Keefe promoted the Leadership Institute’s mission of helping students start their own conservative newspapers nationwide. For his new media angle, O’Keefe told how we captured his satirical yet successful effort to ban Lucky Charms at Rutgers dining halls on YouTube.

NewsBusters.org Matthew Sheffield recounted his role in starting the RatherBiased blog that eventually helped dethrone CBS anchor Dan Rather by exposing flaws in 60 Minutes National Guard/Pres. Bush story.

~snip~

Jeff Gannon was the next audience member to address the panel, and he wanted to know if the panel was concerned about liberal control of new media hubs like YouTube and Google, specifically citing YouTube’s pulling of a Michelle Malkin video criticizing Islam.



This guy has been training for years with smear campaigners.

I wonder who's funding him now?

[Wizard777]

133. Having real prostitutes pose and "journalists" is a known GOP Modus Operandi.

Gannon/Guckert soft balled Bush in their interviews. O'Keefe and Giles hardballed Acorn.

[suffragette]

137. Another M.O. is the one Sheffield pulled

Call out the (probably planted) document as being fake to deflect attention from the real issues of the story. Then go on attack after the reporters and producers so the real story gets buried even further.

Wonder how much he learned from him during that day.

[sinkingfeeling]

12. There's something just plain fishy in this story. I only have seen/heard about it on Faux, first,

and then today on CNN.

[drm604]

27. This is VERY fishy.

Now we have a user who signed up here just today to trumpet that there is a second tape.

I wonder if the tapes are genuine and whether or not the Acorn employees are plants. If they are genuine then I have to wonder how many offices they went to before they found a couple of idiots who would actually give them advice.

At worst this reflects on Acorn's hiring practices. It makes no sense to me that it would be their policy to give out advice on how to run a prostitution ring. What could they possibly gain by doing that?

This whole thing stinks to high heaven. I wonder if there aren't going to be some revelations coming out about staged tapes or planted Acorn employees or some such.

[mzmolly]

105. I agree.

I look forward to more information. Why didn't they try this bologna at an HR Block or Liberty Tax office?

[Wizard777]

114. One reason could be Maryland Law. They can't show the video with the story.

It also a crime to reveal the contents of an illegal wiretap. So the producers and others with content control of any show that airs the videos can also be arrested and charged with revealing the contents of an illegal wiretap. This could also include Youtubes Web Master.

[marshall]

116. Text of the Maryland law

Unlawful acts. -- Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle it is unlawful for any person to: (1) Willfully intercept, endeavor to intercept, or procure any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept, any wire, oral, or electronic communication;

(2) Willfully disclose, or endeavor to disclose, to any other person the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this subtitle; or

(3) Willfully use, or endeavor to use, the contents of any wire, oral, or electronic communication, knowing or having reason to know that the information was obtained through the interception of a wire, oral, or electronic communication in violation of this subtitle. Cts. & Jud. Proc. §10-402(a)(1)-(a)(3).

[Wizard777]

119. Now about Acorns reasonable right to expect privacy in their offices.

Does Acorn collect Private information or promise confidentiality? Yes they do. In fact Giles questions the NY office and expresses concern about privacy. So O'Keefe and Giles should have declared their camera to Acorn to allow Acorn to administer to their privacy obligations and corns. Therefore Acorn has a reasonable right to expect privacy in their offices. Especially in the back rooms where they conduct confidential services or collect private information.

[PSPS]

13. "has been edited and goes to black in some areas ... (from) a conservative activist"

The video footage — which has been edited and goes to black in some areas — was recorded and and posted online Thursday by James O’Keefe, a conservative activist. He was joined on the video by another conservative, Hannah Giles, who posed as the prostitute in the filmmakers’ undercover sting.

Next.

[JonQ]

14. Those workers need to be fired

ASAP.

That's pretty messed up. Importing more than a dozen underage girls to work as a prostitutes, and then using them to get tax benefits.

[Turborama]

15. The 1st sentence of the last paragraph "both employees seen in the video were fired"

Also...

Where is the evidence they were discussing "underage" prostitution?

BecKKK lies about it when introducing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhUIoSBq4tw">this clip but the only use of the word "13" was when they talked about the amount of girls, "there are 13 of them". They did say "very young", but there is no mention of actual ages or of them being "underage".

This isn't a defense of the ACORN woman in the video, her actions were very wrong and she has been rightfully fired, as stated before. I'm more interested in exposing how BecKKK lies, magnifies and distorts things for his (Murdoch's) own unhidden agenda, to rapidly bring down President Obama by any means possible.

Sadly, it looks like CNN has bought into BecKKK's lies and distortions, too.

[timesaretough]

19. Second Video Washington

How many offices do you think have taken the bait?

Second Video Shows ACORN Officials Helping 'Pimp,' 'Prostitute' in Washington Office

[Turborama]

20. What 2nd video?

Have you got a link?

[timesaretough]

21. Link

<http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549241,00.html>

[Yo_Mama]

22. Youtube link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3T6TPQHAUrQ

That's what I found when I searched Youtube for ACORN pimp.

I'm not going to bother to read all these stories, but the videos are going to get a lot of hits just for the rump action in the first few seconds of that one. Boys will be boys.

[karnac]

23. they are holding back on it till primetime

for MAXIMUM impact.

Saw a tiny snippet of it on faux allegedly happening in washington, DC too. Looks pretty damning, if short.

I don't have a link yet but here is the faux spiel..

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,549241,00.html

Put it to you this way. IF the FBI caught on video after 4 sting tries with different lawmakers, a republican congressman taking bribes, would you think it was a pattern? Maybe not even if you wanted it to be true.

But twice?

I do wonder if faux will leaking out more successful attempts. Maybe agonizingly one a week?

[mzmolly]

127. How many didn't? And, why are the videos so oddly edited?

:hi:

[JonQ]

25. Excellent

I read write over that.

And it says in the article "underage".

[Honeyporter735]

26. Actually it does show acknowledgment of underage...

The one employee is told then acknowledges the girls would be under sixteen.

[No Elephants]

162. That isn't what the ACORN workers did--and the OP says they were fired..

The workers gave advice to posers. That's bad enough, but it is nowhere near actually importing children to be prostitutes.

[kelly1mm]

28. ACORN Fires 2 In DC After Hidden-Camera Video

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The group ACORN has fired two workers who were seen on hidden-camera footage giving loan advice to a man posing as a law school student and a woman pretending to be his prostitute girlfriend.

Fox News Channel aired parts of the video and posted it online Friday. It shows a man and woman at the group's Washington office, asking for help in buying a house for her prostitution business. The employees advise her to tell banks that she's a consultant with her own company. They also tell the supposed law student he could buy the house, but to avoid going there because of his political ambitions.

The pair also claimed they planned to employ teenage girls from central America as prostitutes, and an ACORN employee suggested that up to three of the girls could be claimed as dependents, according to transcripts of the video posted online by conservative activist James O'Keefe.

O'Keefe told Fox he posed as the pimp and that he was shocked by the ACORN employees' helpfulness.


Read more: http://www.wusa9.com/rss/local_article.aspx?storyid=90946

---

This is the new video from the DC office. Any more out there? Fox may just chose to drip this out to get critical mass. Not looking good for ACORN especially since yesterday they defended themselves by saying that the filmers had to go to lots (4) of offices untill they got yesterday's video. They need to stop making excuses and do an internal investigation.

[rubberducky]

29. Acorn needs to tighten up thier employees, pronto.

[jefferson_dem]

30. This is scumbag demagogue Glenn Beck's new "torches and pickforks" project.

No thanks. Frankly, I don't give a fuck about it and kind of question the motives of those who do.

[kelly1mm]

36. You "don't give a fuck about" child prostitution and tax fraud?

I understand that the messenger is using this for political gain (and the film makers themselves have and agenda) but shooting the messenger for the message does not make sense in this case. If ACORN has a problem they need to look into it asap or this will continue and result in them being cut off from all funding out of DC.

[jefferson_dem]

44. "I understand that the messenger is using this for political gain..."

Did you just out yourself?

Oh, and please don't put words in my mouth.

[Lagomorph]

188. You forgot to call him a racist.

I mean, he might be white.

[No Elephants]

168. Twist much? The poster said nothing like that.

[VOX]

208. Please hold judgement for a few days -- the "damning" video is the work of political operatives...

And as such, it's validity is suspect until proven otherwise. From my perspective, the tapes are edited and presented in such a manner that appears to be damning -- but there are gaps and blackouts that could easily conceal important information provided by ACORN staff in these discussions. In fact, I would challenge the "documentarians" to show **ALL** the footage they shot before passing any judgement.

Don't be too quick to swallow something fed to you by Breitbart and Fox, et al.

[mzmolly]

215. Everyone cares about these issues. I simply don't believe that the edited

video tapes shown on Faux reflect the ENTIRE story.

[Barack_America]

31. I thought this was Baltimore?

And I'm pretty sure this was posted yesterday.

[kelly1mm]

32. Nope ... there is another video of DC office. Same bad crap though. nt

[Barack_America]

35. Do corporate accountants who funnel money offshore to avoid paying taxes...

...and outsource American jobs bother you this much?

:shrug:

[kelly1mm]

37. The laws that allow them to do so do bother me. nt

[mzmolly]

108. Agreed. These people would have found similar advice in many tax

offices across the US. That said, ACORN does get federal money and should be run with far more integrity because of that. However, they may have reported the people to police at a later time? We don't have all the facts yet.

[joeycola]

50. umm. so it seems it is not an isolated event???

[sabrina 1]

84. You seem like someone who would work hard

to prevent this kind of thing, especially if it were actually happening. Are you aware of the Republican Party's involvement in the vile practices of huge corporations who contributed large amounts of money to the Bush campaign, in the Marianas Islands and the efforts of Republican legislators to block laws that would have ended those practices?

I see that what happened here is pretty bad, but it was not real, thankfully. Fox News et al however, do know about those real people enslaved by Corps who are finacially supportive of their Party.

Since they have now shown sympathy even for imaginary foreign workers being exploited this way, it would be so helpful to finally put a stop to these criminals with Republican connections, if Fox were to go after them as diligently as they are covering this.

I will email them with some info and it would be helpful if others were to do the same. Since Abramoff was a lobbyist for those Corps, and spent time with some Republican legislators letting them know how they should vote, I am sure they will want to do an expose of something that way, way bigger than this with real victims, and yet, I have not seen any coverage by them. Why do you think that is?

[The Magistrate]

33. Hardly So Unique, Ma'am, as Many Pretend

Thousands of prostitutes all over the country pay taxes, process credit card charges, purchase automobiles and homes on credit, and do so on advice of the sort given in these films. They pay an hourly charge, of course, to lawyers and accountants for the advice, which is substantial. A fair proportion of both these professions earn a living advising people how to structure their affairs so they appear to meet the requirements of law, and will escape notice by the authorities. The discussions with professionals are usually couched in hypotheticals, occasionally interrupted by exclaimations on the lines of 'don't tell me that!' or 'I didn't hear that!', and a decent facade of deniability is kept up, even as everyone involved knows exactly what is occurring.

People doing what the people on these videos did, in the position they were when they did, behaved very stupidly. Their first mistake was not pointing out to the person who claimed to be a law student that he should not need to solicit their advice, if that is what he actually was, but rather should turn to one of his professors, or to the law library. Anyone with even half a first year of law school should have been aware of anything these people told him. To say their 'street smarts' were well below par is understating the matter considerably. Their major mistake, of course, was not being professionals with their own office, and levying a substantial charge by the hour to such clients.

[liberalmuse]

34. So has every other company.

Yet another instance of some Rethuglican piece of shit making something out of nothing. Fuck them. I'm sick of their scapegoating bullshit. My sister worked for ACORN. Their only problem is that they go through temp agencies and once in awhile people end up being contracted out who don't have the best work ethic because all they want or need is the quick cash.

[Mithreal]

38. Don't be surprised when the ACORN employees in this instance

turn out to be Republican plants as well.

[Honeyporter735]

39. Cencus bureau cut ties with ACORN today n/t

[kelly1mm]

41. Do you have a link for this? Google has nothing yet. nt

[joeycola]

49. I read it today but forget where.

[kelly1mm]

61. Post #47 has a link now. nt

[joeycola]

63. I was just coming back to say it is in LBN.

[kelly1mm]

40. Were the Baltimore employees plants? I did not hear that yet.

Do you have a link? That would be great to get out there if substantiated.

[Vogon_Glory]

45. I Shouldn't Be Surprised If They Were

I shouldn't be surprised if the Baltimore 'employees' were Connie (conservative) plants. If I were a right-wing dirty-trickster and I wanted something to show for the tens of thousands of dollars I'd spent funding this scam, I'd insert some of my own people to make sure that the operation goes the right way.

Cui bono is a question EVERYONE, not just liberals, should be asking themselves, when reading right-wing propaganda.

[jkshaw]

42. this whole story smells ...

... Like a set up.

[slackmaster]

43. Obviously it was a setup

And the people who did the setup didn't break any laws.

[lynne]

47. Census Bureau has now cut all ties with Acorn -

- link > http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/census-severs-relationship-with-acorn.html

[No Elephants]

163. Since when is a defense against libel an "excuse?" The implication of the video is that

ACORN taught or condoned these practices. Showing that some ACORN offices sent Giles and O'Keefe packing tends to rebut that implication. They are not saying that the employees did nothing wrong or defending their hiring or training practices here. They are citing evidence that this is not ACORN policy. And we don't know that ACORN is not planning to investigate.

[HughMoran]

48. I had to click the link to verify that this was indeed yesterdays news

I wonder what the fascination with this story is?

[kelly1mm]

51. Yesterday was Baltimore this was DC - 2 different stories.

two different offices, two different ACORN employees. Same group set this up though.

[HughMoran]

52. Awww gee

What the fuck.

[kelly1mm]

56. WTF? - It was two different offices. If you read the story you

would have seen that. Here is the section from the story you said you read that should illustrate my point:

"Fox News Channel aired parts of the video and posted it online Friday. It shows a man and woman at the group's Washington office, asking for help in buying a house for her prostitution business."

Note the "Friday" and "Washington". Yesterday was the Baltimore office. I don't know why is so hard to understand that this is a different (albeit related) story.

[HughMoran]

62. I was surpised that it was another similar sounding story.

No problem here.

[kelly1mm]

65. Thanks for the clarification. I am a little hypersensitive

on this as I originally posted the new story as a new OP and it was merged into this one - I think incorrectly. Waiting to hear the reason why from the admins.

Hope this is the last office they got.

Have a great weekend!

[HughMoran]

66. No problem

You have a nice weekend too. I think we're all a bit hypersensitive lately.

[kelly1mm]

68. Ain't that the truth - maybe we all need a drink/smoke a bowl/get

laid/meditate - pick your favorite(s)! We live in interesting times!

[Bjorn Against]

53. It sounds like entrapment to me

I don't imagine it is legal to pretend to be engage in an illegal activity like prostitution to discredit an organization on film.

Also "two ACORN employees" is not the same as ACORN, if the right-wing thinks it is fair to characterize an entire organization for the actions two employees take without the organizations approval then it should be fair to blame right-wing organizations for the actions of their employees. I am willing to bet these filmmakers work with some people with less than stellar records, most of us do.

[kelly1mm]

58. Entrapment is a legal defense to government action only. Meaning

that the police or other organ of the state cannot entrap you. This was a private RW group that set this up. The ACORN employees fell for it.

[Xenotime]

77. They should have just blackmailed them. It would have been the pug thing to do

[proteus_lives]

64. Ouch. The Rethug version of "Punk'd"

[Lagomorph]

67. There are people out there...

...who do things like this.

They come in all colors and they target people by becoming involved in people oriented activities.

Morals are culture specific. I've been people here defend child prostitution or female circumcision as cultural tradition.

IF this happened as it appeared, then those people need to be kept away from giving advice to people from different cultures who may not even be fully aware they are breaking American laws, as opposed to cultural taboos.

IF it is a setup, then it just reaffirms my revulsion of politics as the dirtiest of all games.

[marshall]

78. How many more of these stings do they have in the can?

The first one was bad but could be passed off as a couple of bad apples. The second one in a different location made more people sit up and take notice (including the Census Bureau). ACORN officials have got to be wondering how many more of these sting films will surface. And they have to be very careful about their response.

[Greenhound]

88. It's not alleged when it's being caught red handed

I wouldn't say alleged. The video is pretty clear. They were instructing people to cheat on taxes. Can't blame the freepers for this one. ACORN stepped in it big time. And I seriously doubt Beck is Klan. Guess you don't have a problem with Byrd being a senator.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wizard777]

93. No Tax laws were violated.

But there is the matter of O'Keefe and Giles Conspiring to operate a House of child prostitution in Maryland. That is illegal.

[marshall]

94. what are the laws about stings?

Does law enforcement have some kind of special dispensation that allows them to pose as drug dealers, prostitutes, killers for hire, child pornographers, etc?

And on the ACORN workers' side, is it actually illegal to advise somebody on how to evade taxes and conceal illegal activities? For that matter, who knows if it actually violates any written guidelines that ACORN has?

It's all very murky, mostly about hype.

[Wizard777]

97. They are not police and are not entitled to any Law Enforcement exemptions.

The cops would have gotten a warrant.

[No Elephants]

165. We don't know yet that ACORN stepped into anything but careless hiring and training. Then again,

who on earth would think to train tax preparers not to give tax advice on child prostitution? I bet even HR Block doesn't cover that in its training, though it probably will start now. Then again, so will ACORN.

[subcomhd]

185. I heard beck raped and murdered a girl in 1990. when will he fight back?

[No Elephants]

164. I call bs. I'd love to see a link to posts here defending

child prostitution and female castration; and if there are such posts, I'd bet my home they were made by trolls.

BTW, correctly describing something as cultural does not equal defending it as cultural.

[mzmolly]

106. The heavily edited video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UOL9Jh61S8

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgqORp48uik&NR=1

The women who worked for ACORN may have reported these people to police after the so called sting? Perhaps they were trying to get as much information as they could in order to inform police?

I will say though, after viewing the video, it doesn't look very good for the women who worked for ACORN. Then again, the video was edited for a reason. :crazy:

[send2meez]

117. The two ACORN workers were paid off

No adult in their right mind would have gone along with such a sick halloween prank. They must have been paid enough to go along with this that they wouldn't worry about losing their jobs. It will come out sooner or later, but the damage will have been done. When are the Dems going to fight back?

[mzmolly]

129. This isn't a Democratic scandal. Bush gave ACORN more money than

any prior administration. When will HE fight back?

[timesaretough]

141. Finally

A voice of reason - this is not a dem/rep issue.... This is blatant corruption and our tax money is being used to continue it.

[mzmolly]

142. IMO, it's more about individual ignorance than blatant corruption.

ACORN had ethical rules that were not followed by the employees in question. Again, we don't yet have the full story. The women who were video taped may have notified authorities after the interviews etc.

[No Elephants]

157. Yes, but look at the OP. It says ACORN is liberal. And Obama worked with or for ACORN when

he registered voters in Chicago.

And many of the voters that Obama registered were members of minority groups, especially African American, and tend to vote Democratic.

And Obama has described himself as a community organizer.

Whenever ACORN is somehow associated with wrongdoing, the spin will be about Democrats, race and Obama, whether or not Democrats, race and Obama are ever mentioned. During the campaign, all the usual suspects were lying about Obama vis a vis ACORN.

ACORN is now like a dog whistle to the neocon base (some of whom posted on this thread, I believe.)

BTW. I wonder how the OP decided that ACORN was liberal, as opposed to simply Democratic, or even non-partisan?

[rayofreason]

178. The spin is worse...

...when progressives are seen as willing to ignore or even defend wrongdoing in order to preserve "image."

[mzmolly]

110. Excellent point. I want to see the tapes of ACORN workers who refused

to help the actors in question.

[timesaretough]

115. Yikes, how about another one?

http://yidwithlid.blogspot.com/2009/09/acorn-prostitution-scam-moves-to.html

Brooklyn this time......

[mzmolly]

124. And the tapes of the workers who did not offer advice? How about unedited versions of the convos?

FYI ~ The Reagan and Bush admins funded ACORN as well. It's been in existence since Obama was about 10 years of age.

"Every year during the Bush administration, ACORN Housing Corporation received more than $1 million (from 2001, when George Bush became president, until 2008, the Bush administration provided over $13 million to ACORN), for such things as housing counseling and working to prevent predatory lending in low-income communities. "

[No Elephants]

156. Nonetheless, all you will hear is that ACORN is liberal, just as in the OP>

[marshall]

143. Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this

If the videos are still dribbling out on 26 September.

[joeycola]

121. ACORN scandal growing, third video made public............

Forum Name General Discussion
Topic subject ACORN scandal growing, third video made public
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6544662#6544662
6544662, ACORN scandal growing, third video made public
Posted by The Straight Story on Mon Sep-14-09 03:18 PM

ACORN scandal growing, third video made public

The hits just keep coming for ACORN. Last week two undercover videos surfaced showing ACORN employees giving advice on how to avoid paying taxes and start up a prostitution ring with underage girls illegally smuggled into the U.S. This morning a third video was made public.

Filmaker James O'Keefe and aspiring journalist Hannah Giles posed as a pimp and prostitute and went to several ACORN offices. They were asking for low income housing loans and tax advice. The first video to be released was from ACORN's Baltimore office.

In the video the pair specifically say they wish to open a brothel. They also say in no uncertain terms that Giles began "working" as a prostitute at age 13, and that they will be importing 13 underage girls from El Salvador. They say the girls are under 16 years old. The ACORN employess in the video freely offer advice on how to skirt the law, and don't even blink when the undercover duo mention the ages of the girls they will be employing.

Next came a video from ACORN's Washington, D.C. office. It was basically a repeat performance of the Baltimore video. This morning the third video was made public showing ACORN giving the same advice in their New York City office. Coincidence? That's doubtful.

ACORN called the first video a "scam" and said that O'Keefe and Giles had failed in several other attempts at other ACORN offices. ACORN has not said at which offices the failed attempts occured, but obviously it wasn't in D.C. or New York City. One has to ask, could more videos be coming?

http://www.examiner.com/x-20909-Columbia-Independent-Examiner~y2009m9d14-ACORN-scandal-growing-third-video-made-public

[No Elephants]

158. I question that. The OP says Gile and O'Keefe's attempts in NY failed.

[rayofreason]

174. No. The ACORN nuts took the bait.

See here

http://www.examiner.com/x-16813-Legal-News-Examiner~y2009m9d14-Veritas-Visuals-releases-third-ACORN-video-showing-more-illegal-conduct-in-hidden-camera-scandal

With at least 3 offices ready to assist in the sexual slavery of children, why shouldn't there be a freeze of government grants, a full-blown inquiry, and even RICO prosecutions if the evidence warrrents?

[rayofreason]

131. A third video...

...means that this is something more than a bad apple (or acorn) issue. It suggests something systemic. Not that it is ACORN policy to provide this kind of advice, but that the corporate culture allows those kinds of attitudes to thrive.

Time for a major management shakeup and an independent investigation.

In fact, wasn't Conyers going to do that? Oh, yeah..."The powers that be....."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/25/conyers-abandons-plan-probe-acorn/

[fascisthunter]

135. I'll Wait for better sources

[No Elephants]

160. Please see Replies 158 and 155.

[John Kerry VonErich]

145. Why does it feel like this is becoming a war on community organazations?

nt

[No Elephants]

161. Please see Reply 157. ACORN is a means to a political end. If these people really gave a crap

about child prostitution, they would have tried to bust a child prostitution ring, not an organization who registers voters.

[rayofreason]

177. An organization that protects child prostitution...

...should be busted not matter what else it does.

Got a problem with that?

[olddixiedem]

149. Agreed, and we have to focus on the issues!

Agreed, and we have to focus on the issues!

[Hippo_Tron]

159. OMIGOD it's teh ACORNZ!

[No Elephants]

169. LOL. That sums up the entire thread perfectly.

[rayofreason]

175. LOL...At child prostitution??????

I would have thought that primitive attitudes such as a lack of concern for sexual slavery of children would be beyond the pale.

Seems not.

[timo]

176. number 4??

looks like another video is surfacing out of san bernardino.........

[Honeyporter735]

180. yep, and it's BAD n/t

[Lagomorph]

182. Here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s8w9GEpSzw&feature=player_embedded#t=399

[marshall]

186. Those two really get around

I think it's time to contact our local branches and find out if anybody encountered a stereotypical pimp and prostitute with a hair raising story. Acorn has got to start being proactive about routing out however many of these tapes are going to be coming out, because at the moment they are not controlling the situation and their pants are around their ankles.

[slackmaster]

193. I had to stop about 4 minutes into that one

I couldn't watch any more after "Heidi Fleiss is my hero."

I feel sorry for that woman. She was totally unprepared to deal with a NOVEL situation that would probably never happen in real life. When you face a situation at work in which you don't know how to react, you can always say something like "I'm not sure what our policy is. Let me speak with my supervisor."

But sometimes people who get caught off guard try to ad lib they way through bizarre circumstances. That is exactly what the filmmakers or whatever you call them were looking for.

[ProudDad]

181. Cowardly Dems Let faux-noise and repukes Roll Over Them Again

And then the fucking Senate rolls over on Acorn...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4059098

HEY DEMOCRATS!!!

Do ya' get it now?

Those fuckers will throw you under the bus just as fast as they did Van Jones, Health Care Reform, Jocelyn Elders (remember her?) and sub-prime Mortgage Holders...

But they love their fucking bankers and Wall Street... Sure is nice they're heavily regulating them now...uh, they're not? Never Mind...

Oh, yeah, and fucking Obama is still paying billions to Halliburton, Blackwater (XE) and KBR for the endless war(tm). He marched right into the arms of the military-industrial complex before the streamers for the Inauguration were cleaned up. Gates sec'y of War!!! Give me a fucking break...

Fucking XE (Blackwater)!!! How many "bad apples" have they had? So Acorn immediately fires a couple of bad apples out of their thousands of employees -- faux-noise creates a hit piece and the FUCKING DEMONCRATS CAVE!!!

GET A CLUE, GUYS!!!!

Give me a republican any day, at least they don't lie to you. They tell you they're fascist fucks -- and they act like it... They're consistent...

The fucking Dems -- they lie to your face -- "oh, we're progressive... public option - public option... end the war... give working people a fair shake... Change you can believe in..."

But where the rubber meets the road; sorry, Charlie...

We need to pander to the right-wing to get the bill passed or the pResident will look bad.

And who else ya' gonna' vote for (haw, haw, haw!)!?!?!?!?

Get a clue, folks! These assholes aren't your friends...

:puke:

[and-justice-for-all]

183. You know what I was thinking...

It seems to me that ACORN was NOT attempting fraud at all..

Two people walk in; one a pimp and the other a prostitute. Then, they proceed to tell the ACORN folks all kinds of insanity, like underage prostitution is going to take place in the house; the girls will be coming from wherever they said. Well, whats the one thing you could do in such a situation? Turn the pimp and the prostitute in of course.

They are just unloading all kinds of information and they will surely leave contact information because they are trying to buy a house for their illegal activities. So, the more they talk, the better and with the couples contact info, they can be investigated or turned into the police or FBI.

I do not think this is so cut and dry, "The conservative filmmakers unsuccessfully attempted similar ruses at the group’s offices in Philadelphia, Los Angeles and New York" Really? so what did those offices tell them?

[rayofreason]

187. ACORN defenders give progressives a bad name

Take a look at this video - #4 from California!

http://biggovernment.com/2009/09/15/acorn-prostitution-scandal-california-here-we-come/

After the three previous videos and statements from former ACORN board members that the organization has essentially turned criminal (www.acorn-8.net) there are so many here who turn a blind eye to the reality, who want to blame and question the messenger, many whose first instinct is simply to circle the wagons and shoot back without regard that it is the progressive cause that injured by such actions.

No progressive with a shred of integrity can ignore the obvious support for child sexual slavery by four ACORN offices as documented by these videos - and 4 makes a pattern of behavior. Progressives stand against the exploitation of women and children and for the rule of law. Only a fool, or worse, can deny what is plain for all to see in these films. Worse yet, in video #4, the execrable ACORN woman says about people "...if they were Liberal they would be helping you..." So I say to all of you who have seen these videos and said "no big deal" or yelled "entrapment!" or who even refuse to see the videos because they are "right-wing propaganda":

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

Where is your principled stand on progressive ideas? Where is your intellectual honesty? Why do you resist clearing a nest of vipers from your bosom? I say let the waters of justice roll down and clear this stygian stable, and I call on Rep. Conyers to be our Hercules and ignore the"powers that be." The longer this festers the longer the right can point to ACORN and say "See, even with evident malfeasance the Left will not police its own."

And they will be right in more ways than one.

[EFerrari]

189. Do you get this worked up every time one of these bs stories comes out?

That must be exhausting.

[rayofreason]

194. No...

I only get worked up when I see so many in the progressive community defend the indefensible.

Child abuse is one particularly hot button. Honor killings is another. And anti-gay violence completes the trio.

Somehow many feel that these are no big deal when committed by "allies."

[EFerrari]

201. It first has to be true in order to be a big deal.

You don't know that yet and given the long history of these bs stories about ACORN, I see no reason at this point to jump into the react-o-rama.

[rayofreason]

203. It would seem...

... that the "bs" stories bout ACORN were true. Have you seen the San Diego tape? And there are more. And what about the statements of former ACORN Board members?

ACORN is a criminal and corrupt organization that has wormed its way into the heart of the Democratic party, where, like a parasitic organism, it will damage all around it until excised.

The more the patient resists treatment, the worse the damage.

[EFerrari]

206. Well, no. ACORN did not engage in voter fraud.

ACORN did not steal the census.

ACORN did not cause the housing meltdown.

ACORN did not receive millions in stimulus money.

None of those stories were true.

As to this latest campaign against ACORN, all the facts aren't in. Do you know how many attempts were made at other offices where the police were called? Do you know what steps are being taken against employees found to have failed their professional standards? ACORN's tax program has 10 steps to it. This sting op didn't even make it through the first one.

You may go ahead and forward right wing disninformation. I for one will not be joining you.

[mzmolly]

214. I've seen the heavily edited tape and the transcripts. I've also read that the SanDiego employee

REPORTED THE INCIDENT TO POLICE.

See this thread if you're interested in an alternative P.O.V.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6587421&mesg_id=6587421

ACORN has been around for FOUR decades. Bush oversaw more ACORN funding than any President before or since according to various reports. ACORN is not part of the "Democratic bosom". However, they have been targeted because of their effective GOTV efforts in poor communities as well as their loose association with the President.

I support a full investigation. I want all of the video evidence from every office before I judge the organization or it's employees. What's your problem with that Ray?

[TankLV]

191. Looks like WE defenders of this NOBEL organization have the last laugh!!!

ALL the fux allegations have been proven FALSE!!!

It WAS a setup from the BEGINNING!!!

ACORN did NOTHING wrong!!!

HA!

[slackmaster]

192. I think they may qualify as an Ig Nobel organization at the moment

http://improbable.com/ig/winners/

:rofl:

[rayofreason]

195. The last laugh of the demented....

....on the way to the gallows.

[ItNerd4life]

196. It's so sad how true your statements are.

Acorn has to be let go and cut off.

There are now 4 tapes, any bets that their will be more?

Corruption is corruption whether it's from liberals or conservatives.

If we want to be like conservatives we will defend Acorn until the end.

[Honeyporter735]

197. Apparently there are more tapes

breaking tonight on Hannity. It's time to cut ties.

[Psephos]

198. You have earned your name with your posts in this thread n/t

[rayofreason]

205. Thanks.

I noted your Charge of the Light Brigade on the Carter statement.

I agree with you. Keep up the good work.

[VOX]

207. Don't be too quick to swallow something fed to you by Breitbart and Fox, et al...

I agree, the way the videos are edited, the information *appears* damning. But there has been editing, and so far, it's not clear if the footage produced for these RW entities is accurate or truthful as presented.

These weren't just two kids who got together with a camera and decided to "rip the lid" off ACORN; if you've read some of the superbly researched posts on DU, you'll quickly learn that the "documentarians" are schooled political operatives with an agenda, and were possibly bankrolled by right-wing sources.

[mzmolly]

213. Ever hear of "innocent until proven guilty?"

;)

[Psephos]

199. When Jon Stewart gives it the full treatment, you know it's "game over."

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

Scroll to "The Audacity of Hos."

Painful - but hilarious.

ACORN threw itself under the bus.

[marshall]

202. It didn't help that they threw workers in Baltimore & DC under the bus

The fiasco began with the workers in questions being summarily fired, and never heard from. They would have come in handy to speak out for ACORN, but dumping them like that eliminated their usefulness.

[rayofreason]

204. They were only useful...

...when their criminality was unknown. With a blown cover they were a liability.

[mzmolly]

217. One bad ACORN don't spoil the whole bunch o proverbial nuts.

;) Seriously, I saw that particular tape, and I feel it's the most damning so far (sans the one where the woman was deliberately messing with the heads of the pair in question.) But I STILL want to see complete videos from every office before judging the organization as a whole. Or, any individual for that matter.

[grahamhgreen]

209. If ACORN is defunded for this, then BLACKWATER/Xe should be defunded

as well

[grahamhgreen]

212. Has anyone made sure that the ACORN WORKERS WERE NOT PLANTED, as well?

Just in case they planted the workers as well as the clients

[mzmolly]

216. Key point: "The video footage — which has been edited and goes to black in some areas ..."

:hi:

[Turborama]

218. Yep, and you can hear the audio is cut, too..

...as I noted in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=369241&mesg_id=369370">this post.

:hi: