Car fleeing Calif. police hits pickup, killing 7

[UpInArms]

Source: Associated Press

FRESNO, Calif. — The California Highway Patrol says a car fleeing from police ran a stop sign and slammed into a pickup, killing three people in the car and four young children in the truck.

The patrol says police in Dinuba, southeast of Fresno, were trying to stop the car Saturday afternoon for a traffic infraction.

The patrol says the truck was carrying two adults and their five children. Four of the children — ages 1, 3, 4 and 7 — were ejected and died at the scene. The fifth child — age 8 — and the parents were taken to a hospital. The adults were identified as 29-year-old Carlos Salazar Jr. and 26-year-old Jennifer Salazar of Orange Cove.

All three men in the car being chased were killed. Their identities and ages weren't known.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h2c8j9Rk9hK5N0cdJ5qFWWNz61WAD99VDCB00

[Pavulon]

1. Car fleeing, gun shoots...

The car was left out of gear and rolled down hill to do this? DRIVER kills, murders, people with a weapon. Probably for some bullshit warrant or dime bag. The car is not at fault.

Idiots.

[raystorm7]

2. I'm curious as to how long the cops let this chase last. Tragic all around regardless.

[Mudoria]

4. Probably long enough for the news copters to make the scene

California (and yes, I know this happens in every state) news stations seem to think a police chase isn't a police chase without 10 news choppers delivering all the action live and in color. I hope the police weren't chsing the car over some nickel and dime crime..

[tsotsi]

16. I'm curious as to how long the cops let this chase last. Tragic all around regardless.

Many agencies have a no chase policy for traffic infractions precisely to prevent the tragedy that occurred. As a cop I would never have endangered the public simply to issue a traffic fine. This will inevitably result in a civil case and someone is going to pay one hell of a lot of money.

[Chemisse]

32. NBC news said it was a stolen car n/t

[Garbo 2004]

23. Approx 4 miles from where local police tried to stop car to accident scene, per LA Times.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/08/seven-people-including-four-children-killed-in-crash-near-fresno-after-motorist-flees-police.html

[flvegan]

3. At least 3 of those kids should have been in child safety seats.

This is a horrible tragedy, but I don't know how any parent could of sound mind, attempt to transport their 5 young children in a pickup, unless maybe it's one of those crew cab dually trucks.

[enlightenment]

5. In the back . . .

probably.

Even if they weren't in the bed, they weren't secured. There is so much wrong with this story.

gads. Can't wait to see how many people blame the cops . . .

[atreides1]

18. If there is blame

There's enough to go around for everyone involved.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. And their truck probably wasn't even soft enough to keep the other driver safe!

I mean, since you're blaming the victims, for heaven's sake, don't forget to cite their role in the accident. If only they had the new Ford Porous, why, that police-evading car would have driven right through them, and none of this would have happened! I smell a wrongful death lawsuit against the estate of that careless family in the truck.


:eyes:

[sybylla]

8. It's not blaming the victims

It's pointing out that there's more than one person at fault for the children's deaths.

Feel free to rant away at the cops. But let's not ignore the whole set of facts either.

[Dreamer Tatum]

9. There isn't enough information to rant at ANY cops

When the cops try to pull you over, pull the fuck over. Or drive safely to a police station if you fear the person trying to pull you over.

"I'm sorry your entire family was killed, but that cop was CHASING ME" will never fly as an excuse, not ever.

But then again, this is a rare treat for a lot of DUers: they can blame cops for something AND people who had the nerve to have their family in a truck while that truck was in the way of someone who was just minding their business, careening through the streets.

[flvegan]

10. Really.

Is that what I'm doing, blaming the victims? I'm advocating that at no time, unless it's one of those gigantic trucks with seatbelts for 8 adults, should any parent attempt to drive with 6 people in a truck, ESPECIALLY when 5 of them are children and no fewer than three need to be in children's car seats.

And after seeing your response below, if you honestly think I'm blaming the cops then you are one sorry and ignorant poster. I sincerely hope you don't have physical fallout from such a kneejerk reaction.

[Dreamer Tatum]

12. I still don't see one syllable in your post about the car that caused the wreck

so yes, I think you are blaming the victims, especially to the degree that you fault the (now dead) parents for putting children in a truck.

[flvegan]

14. I didn't say anything about the fleeing car nor the police.

I do fault the parents for (what appears to be) transporting 5 children in a vastly unsafe way.

If the parents are indeed now dead (I trust there's been an update I haven't yet seen) then all the more a tragedy as there's one young child that's lost his/her entire family today. A bigger tragedy that the fleeing suspect died, such that he/she can't spend many decades in a very unpleasant prison.

[LisaL]

46. Both parents are alive with moderate injuries.

However unless they got any more children that were not riding with them, all five of their kids are now dead.
http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20090809/NEWS01/90809002/1002/UPDATED++Collision+after+police+chase+kills+eight+people+in+Orosi++including+five+children

[LeftyMom]

71. This is a simple fact of both driving and parenting: you have to plan for other people's stupidity.

Whether it's a car fleeing the cops, an improperly signaled lane change or just a wet road, if you drive you'll almost certainly get in some kind of accident eventually because shit happens. Part of being a responsible adult is being reasonably prepared for that eventuality, instead of denying that it can happen and giving no thought to the best ways of reducing the risks involved.

[ejpoeta]

15. you'd be surprised. i don't see it as often as i used to, but I do still see kids

who sure don't look like they are in seats or even buckled in. I remember I had a friend who's son would cry, so she'd take him out of the seat as we were going down the road. I would tell her not to do that... and if I was driving, I would not allow her to do that. I know I have had my kids cry... I would NEVER take them out of their seats!! I would pull over and see what was the matter if I was going to take them out to feed or change them.... But never drive like that... except for one time when Emy got bit by the dog next door.... well, he had her head in his mouth and was throwing her around.... Then I held her as I got a ride to the doctor.... luckily it was superficial wounds. But other than that, she and my other daughter have always been in their seat.

[flvegan]

17. It outrages me to see kids not buckled up.

Even more so to see very young children (of car seat age) that aren't.

[ejpoeta]

22. I agree. You never know what could happen... No matter how safe a driver you are.

Emy was so great... Sometimes I'd forget to check that she was buckled in her seat, and if I started moving at all she would say, "stop!! I'm not buckled!" so i would stop and she would buckle or I would help her. That was when she could get herself buckled of course. LOL! Dora helped.... Emy would always say, seatbelts... so we can be safe!!

[bejamin wood]

72. Oh dear

One in one people die every day, that's the trade off for being born into the world. There is no such thing as safe behaviour; there is only risk. I should know, I was born with spinal meningitis, had my face layed open in a dog attack, slammed through the windshield of a car at 60 MPH, and got married last year. ...I only asked for the last one.

But seriously, we a frail organisms that have several very needy requirements in order to survive, mixed with an overdose of awareness that instils fault in our behaviour. That is why people continue to pace and fret until the inevitable.

I give my respects to the family and wish them the best as what they lost is irreplaceable humanity.

[Tx4obama]

29. There are lot of poor people in the USA

And chances are they could only afford one old ratty pickup truck that the father used for work.
Not everyone can afford huge vehicles that can hold multiple baby car seats.
What is a family of seven supposed to do - stay home forever and never go anywhere?

[WriteDown]

33. If you can't fit your kids in your car and cannot secure them

properly, perhaps they should be taken by CPS as you are not willing to care for them properly.

[Tx4obama]

36. That is just crazy!

You know I grew up in the day when there wasn't any law about seat belts and some cars didn't even have them.
If people would have ever thought back then that one day the government would take your kids away due to 'a seat belt' or 'car seat' issue then everyone would have thought it was nuts! People have slowly allowed their rights to be taken away and have just gone along with it without any protest. It is a shame what the world is turning into.

[WriteDown]

39. You do not have the "right" to endanger your children. nt

[LeftyMom]

70. Now we know a bit more about the physics of car crashes.

Automobile accidents are the number one killer of children, as well as one of the primary causes of serious injury. Children have the right to be protected from entirely foreseeable and largely preventable dangers, and being either unwilling or unable to do so is a sign that a parent may not be fit.

[sabrina 1]

53. If you live in a country that refuses to pay its

workers a living wage because of greed, selfishness and arrogance, you blame those who are responsible for endangering the lives of adults and children alike by refusing to provide basic needs for all citizens. Especially if that country has money to spend on unnecessary brutal wars killing other people's children for profit.

So far you have advocated that people who are illiterate should not be allowed to own homes, now you are promoting the idea that poor people should not be allowed to keep their children. There are places where you would fit in nicely. But they do tend to erupt in revolutions from time to time.

I'm beginning to think you cannot be serious about some of the things you say. But if you are, I feel very sorry for you, far more so than for the many poor, but loving families whose children you would like to remove from them. They are far richer than someone, like you, who appears to view human beings as mere statistics. How sad for you.

[WriteDown]

55. Once again, you do not have the "right" to endanger your

children. It used to be the case that a husband could beat his wife because she was considered his property. That was his "right" in some eyes. Like seatbelt laws that view has changed and both barbaric practices have been barred. If your kid needs to ride in the floorboard or bed of your truck then your kid needs to be taken away from you.

PS. The bit about aptitude tests to own property was blatant sarcasm.

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Beggin your pardon

but that is fucking nuts.

[WriteDown]

57. Not surprising..

Many view children more like toys or property rather than human beings whose parents are responsible for their welfare.

[LeftyMom]

68. Absofuckinglutely.

If those kids were properly secured they likely could have survived. Note that both parents and one child did, I'd lay money they were the ones buckled up in the cab.

[Realityhack]

65. That is not a valid excuse for breaking the law...

and transporting children in the back of a pickup.

[LeftyMom]

69. Either buy a van (old used ones are cheap,) stay home or not have five kids they couldn't afford to

provide the basics for? It's not as if it's news that California has a safety belt and car seat law (that's been the case since before I was born,) or that most trucks carry 2-5 and most cars carry 5, so it hardly takes a brain surgeon to figure out that there's probably going to be a vehicle purchase involved in expanding the family to 6 or more.

:shrug:

If they gave a shit they could probably have found somebody willing to trade a van for a pickup. Especially in farm country (which Fresno and the surrounding area definitely is) a working pickup in any condition is always in demand.

[Tx4obama]

30. How can any COUNTRY of sound mind...

let people get paid such low wages, have such a high poverty level and homeless rate, and not have a national health care system that covers EVERYONE.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. That's true, but I wonder if the family felt like they had no such option.

If the truck was the only vehicle they owned and they needed a truck for work they would be faced with the hard choice to risk taking the kids without proper car seats or not being able to transport their kids at all. It sucks being poor with that many kids.

I'm entirely in favor of mandatory child car seats because it encourages parents who have a choice to do the right thing. I don't know why this family had all those kids without proper restraints but I do know that those parents, if conscious, will regret that decision for the rest of their days.

[Le Taz Hot]

54. They were in the BED

of the pick up which, of course, is ILLEGAL. That includes the 1-year-old. I'm sorry, try and blame it on the stolen car drivers, try and blame it on the CHP but whoever made the decision to put those kids in the BED holds most of the responsibility here. Had they been in child safety seats in the cab, chances are excellent that they'd all be alive right now.

[Realityhack]

64. Absolutely.

Two people were committing crimes here. And both are at fault for the deaths.

[LeftyMom]

67. That still wouldn't work.

Even in a full size extended cab pickup with front and rear benches there would be seating for a max of six people.

At least, assuming they didn't have one of those custom fabrication extended pickup jobbies. And I've never even laid eyes on one in person (though I've read about at least one company that makes them) so I highly doubt that's what they were using.

[tomreedtoon]

7. Posters, you should be ashamed of yourselves...

...if you assumed motives of anybody involved in this case, or blame the vehicles.

First off, do you know what havoc a car chase causes? Even in California, where chaos is the norm? An officer can't simply shoot out the felon's tires or throw down stop sticks without thinking where the crashing car will wind up.

Second, it sounds like the driver of the fleeing vehicle was the one who crashed the car. The felon watched The Fast and the Furious too many times, and believed his crappy American-made car could perform like a $150K sports car.

There are so many laws and procedures for high-speed chases that it would make your head spin. I would love to see the CHiPS blamed for courting publicity from California's media whore TV stations, but I don't see a lot of evidence that this happened. I think the cops obeyed procedure, which is the only way you can get a handle on these circumstances.

Most of the posts here assume bad behavior by the police, and I think that's uncalled for without further evidence.

[ohio2007]

11. normally, posters blame the fascist organization that forced the issue in the first place

If there were no "pigs" harassing the good citizens in the first place, this wouldn't have happened .
:sarcasm:

Most of the posts here assume bad behavior by the police, and I think that's uncalled for without further evidence.

but when an officer is killed walking up to a stopped car to give them a speeding ticket, they believe the driver had just cause as reason to protect themselves

[tomreedtoon]

19. My very point. SOME police do their jobs.

I have been a victim of police indifference - rather than chase down some juveniles who stole my car and robbed me at knifepoint in my apartment, they claimed I had enticed them into gay sex. So I have very little love for SOME of the police.

But my uncle was Sheriff of St. Louis for many years (Martin Tozer, for those interested) and I know how brutal and harsh life can be for a cop that's honestly trying to do his job.

Sadly, I think there are a lot of unreconstructed hippies here who think of the cop as "The Man" and somebody who is absolutely evil. They have never jumped into anyone else's shoes.

[tabasco]

20. Do you have a link to a post like the one you describe with the speeding ticket?

Or are you a liar?

[Chemisse]

35. Yeah, I was wondering where the link was for that also n/t

[name not needed]

21. Agreed.

The idiot should have stopped. But of course, the CHP is gonna get shit for simply doing their jobs.

[Garbo 2004]

25. Dinuba police in chase. Not CHP. Looks like CHP doing the crash investigaton. nt

[Deja Q]

27. !!!!!!

:applause:

:yourock:

:applause::applause:

The anti-cop attitude around here at times is almost criminal; if the same people believe in rights and due process and the other shit. IT WORKS BOTH WAYS and these folks can't be bothered to think that cops have a hell of a lot more to fathom than they ever will...

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. No, most posters assume, with good cause, that most police chases

are completely unnecessary. Unless the perp is a serious felon fleeing the scene of a crime, there is no dire need to pursue.

If it is just someone who refused to pull over for a cop, then the cop should follow at a discreet distance while radioing ahead for other cruisers to cut him off and stop him.

It's not rocket science.

As for the kids in the truck, their inappropriate transport is IMMATERIAL. They could just as easily have been a group of kids walking across the street, or waiting at a bus stop. They are the VICTIMS here, the victims of a pissing contest between the cops and robbers. A completely unnecessary pissing contest, because when you go up against the cops, you lose. The thieves knew it, the cops knew it. There is no reason for the cops to have pushed it into a high speed pursuit.

[Hansel]

13. There is no excuse for chasing a vehicle for a traffic infraction

If they were kidnapping someone, yes.

For a traffic infraction there is no reason to use lethal force, which is basically what chasing a car around at high speed through traffic is. Lethal force for the police, the car and anyone else on or near the roadway.

My ex-husband's best friend's sister was killed due to a high speed chase when the car being chase, again for a traffic infraction, broadsided her boyfriends vehicle. They were coming home from an afternoon trip to the jewelry store to pick out her engagement ring. It was truly horrible for family and friends. My husband's friend was hospitalized several times over the years for mental breakdowns as a result. He and his sister were very close and he was 16 when she was killed. It just devastated him. I don't know what happen to him because we lost touch after my divorce, but the last time I saw him he was basically fried from all of the alcohol and drugs he used trying to cope. It was 10 years after the accident.

These chases just need to stop.

[proteus_lives]

24. Why should the cops not chase them?

If someone runs from a traffic infraction, they have a reason. There could be a body or drugs or what have you in trunk. Why else would someone run from a ticket? (Other then stupidity that is.)

Why should the cops take that risk?

[Chemisse]

34. I think they need to weigh the risks

The chances there is a body in the trunk are a lot slimmer than the chances someone could be killed in the chase.

[Hansel]

42. The risk of injuring or killing bystanders is far greater than

the person might have a body in the trunk. I could care less about the drugs. Confiscating drugs is not a good balance for putting the lives of innocent people at risk. The police can pay them a visit later at home with a search warrant now that they have probable cause.

If they don't chase them but instead put out a BOLO they can keep track of them until they have them out of the car. It's less exciting, but innocent bystanders don't get kill.

The person who fled that killed my husband's friend's sister had only run a red light. He wasn't doing anything else wrong. He just thought he could outrun the police, that's it.

[proteus_lives]

44. Your Husband's friend's sister is dead because an asshole ran from the cops.

Not because of the cops themselves. If a person runs and a cop lets them go, something worse could happen later.

People should realize they aren't going to get away from the cops.

[Deja Q]

26. I agree. How will you convince suspects to stop and move to the side, peaceably?

[Chemisse]

38. Why bother?

As long as the car is not stolen, the cops can track it down and charge the driver with a crime for not pulling over, plus give him the ticket.

And everybody lives.

[Hansel]

41. I wouldn't. I would meet them at home.

They have a license plate.

[LisaL]

43. Yea but if the car is stolen, then the license plate is not going

to do you any good. The car might have been carjacked earlier that day.

"A CHP spokesman was unavailable this afternoon. An online CHP log of incident said the Neon was taken in a earlier carjacking in Selma."

http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20090809/NEWS01/90809002/1002/UPDATED++Collision+after+police+chase+kills+eight+people+in+Orosi++including+five+children

[Realityhack]

73. It must be nice to live in a world where...

nobody steals cars.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Seriously. Could they not have gotten the plate number

and sent them their ticket? Or even an arrest warrant?

[LisaL]

48. Send it to whom? Sounds like this was a stolen or a carjacked car.

[Libertas1776]

28. I have seen

in a lot of other locales on those shows dedicated to nothing more than police chases, the police cars lay back and let aerial pursuit take over so as not to make the situation anymore dangerous. Then, usually they are able to set up some kind of blockade ahead of the pursued thanks to visual confirmation from the copters. Of course, most of the blame, if not all of the blame, belongs solely on the asshole driving the feeling car, but one wonders if the cops could have handled it better.

[Chemisse]

37. I don't have stats but a lot of these people racing away from the cops

Seem to be young drivers, still in their "I will live forever" stage. Ignorance, testosterone, and inflated self-confidence combine to propel a stupid race from the cops, one that pretty often ends in someone's death.

There really needs to be another way.

[LisaL]

61. Yes their ages are under 19 years old.

[wundermaus]

31. there are other options to chasing cars...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=1576247
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/FutureTech/story?id=538452&page=1

[orbitalman]

40. SUPID ASSES...

Did the cops think they were on TV, or taping for a future show???

[Pavulon]

49. Oh I thought you meant the person who murdered 7 people

by RUNNING like an asshole rather than pulling over like a man and going to jail.

[slackmaster]

45. Bummer

:-(

[XemaSab]

51. How horrible

:cry:

[Garbo 2004]

52. One local article says Dinuba police had ended the pursuit prior to the crash.

The chase began about 1:52 p.m. when Dinuba police attempted to pull over at 2005 Dodge Neon for a traffic infraction near Nebraska Avenue and Crawford Avenue.

After the Neon failed to yield and sped eastbound on Nebraska, or Avenue 424, Dinuba police ended their pursuit, according to the CHP.

http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20090809/NEWS01/90809002/Police+chase+leads+to+fatal+collision+in+Orosi++seven+people++including+four+children++killed

The article also was updated to reflect a death toll of 8. All 5 children died.

[LisaL]

60. Yea I frankly don't think police is to blame here.

The policeman apparently observed the car running a stop sign, then attempted a traffic stop. He also called helicopter for help. Since the car already run a stop sign according the police report, and collided with a pickup after running the stop sign again, who is to say it wouldn't have collided with another car anyway, even if it wasn't followed by the police? If it run the first stop sign (which led to the chase, according to the police report), then it wasn't following the rules to begin with. The car was reported stolen in a carjacking, so it likely wasn't just a traffic violation the three teenagers in it (who all died from their injuries) were worried about.
http://www.visaliatimesdelta.com/article/20090810/NEWS01/90810008/UPDATE++Dinuba+Police+Chief+says+%E2%80%98policies+followed+appropriately++in+chase+before+fatal+Orosi+collision++trio+in+fleeing+car+identified++

[XemaSab]

59. The fifth child has died

:(

[Chemisse]

62. OMG that is sad n/t

[ecstatic]

63. Shameful.How can cops justify this?

[kiva]

66. Probably the same way you can justify commenting on an

thread without reading the article or the comments above.

[Realityhack]

74. Ding! n/t