Venezuela's UN Envoy Quits to Protest Chavez Policies

[KenLayedOff]

March 4 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's ambassador to the United Nations, Milos Alcalay, resigned, saying the government of President Hugo Chavez isn't protecting human rights or adhering to democratic principles.

``Sadly, Venezuela is now operating devoid of these fundamental principles,'' Alcalay told reporters at the UN in New York. ``The increasing polarization and problems we are experiencing at home have impacted our relationships around the world.''

A career diplomat of 34 years, Alcalay was appointed Venezuela's envoy to the UN in 2001 by Chavez, after serving as the country's ambassador to Brazil. Calls to Venezuela's foreign ministry seeking comment weren't answered.

Alcalay, 58, is the highest-ranking Venezuelan diplomat to resign since protests against Chavez began on Friday. The disturbances, which have claimed nine lives according to the opposition, began when opponents of the former paratrooper demonstrated, calling for a recall vote.

more...

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aUqdKQA4KVWU&refer=top_world_news

[Fenris]

1. Soooooooomebody just made a few hundred million dollars

Can we say "payoff"?:)

[KenLayedOff]

4. Who might that be?

Maybe I can get a loan :-)

[bemildred]

32. I think you are being optimistic about the amount,

but I'm starting to think you are right, this stinks a bit,
or how the state propaganda organs are handling it stinks.
Something stinks. I like this quote:

"Alcalay, 58, is the highest-ranking Venezuelan diplomat to
resign since protests against Chavez began on Friday."

[wjittermoss]

72. He will probably be given asylum too.

Chavez is surrounded by undercover opposition.
We will eventually do to Chavez what we did to Aristide.
Only difference we will do it thoroughly...we need Venezuela's oil!

[bemildred]

2. Vheadline version, with some extra bits:

Venezuela's UN Ambassador resigns: "a testimony to reaffirm a call to peace, so that
Venezuelans .. all of us .. can unite anew in the consolidation of a government of
national salvation governed by the ethical principles which have inspired our fatherland
through all times and we all in ethical values of a society based fairness, transparency
and solidarity!"

...

It is known that Ambassador Alcalay was "hugely disappointed" by
President Hugo Chavez Frias' last weekend speech to hundreds of thousands
of Chavista loyalists in which Chavez had railed against US President
George W. Bush and qualified statements made to the National Assembly
(AN) last month by Executive Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel rejecting
United States covert involvement with Venezuela's political opposition.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16221

[worldgonekrazy]

3. I'd like to hear some examples of these "human rights abuse"

I've heard the allegation made many times, and there are a lot who would paint Chavez as a brutal left wing dictator. But I can never get any specific details. What human rights abuses?

I've learned to be wary of supporting left-wingers just because they are left wing, but I'm guessing the only "human rights abuses" these people are speaking of is Chavez's "taking" their money and land to help out the poor. Keep in mind, our entire Constitution is based on the idea that private property is the essence of "liberty."

[windansea]

5. here are some reports

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

[KenLayedOff]

6. This is sad...

Freedom of Expression in Venezuela
The Venezuelan government is not doing enough to protect journalists from violence, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released today. Human Rights Watch also urged the government to protect freedom of expression by ending its ongoing investigation of the country’s private television networks, and dramatically revising its proposed law to regulate the contents of radio and television broadcasts. The launch of Human Rights Watch’s report coincides with renewed public debate in Venezuela over draft legislation that the government of President Hugo Chávez has introduced on the “social responsibility of radio and television.” The draft legislation would impose stringent and detailed controls over radio and television broadcasts, greatly limiting what could be aired during normal viewing hours. Under the guise of protecting children from crude language, sexual situations and violence, it would subject adults to restrictive and puritanical viewing standards. The 26-page report describes how journalists face physical violence and threats, often by fervent civilian supporters of President Hugo Chávez. Noting the justice system’s failure to identify and punish those responsible for the attacks, the report recommends that the attorney general set up a special panel to investigate the problem.

http://www.hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=venezu

The last thing we need is for Chavez to try and control the media. That is way too GWBish for me.

[seventhson]

10. If the corporate media is threatening to assist in a coup

against a democratic government - I would understand why there would be those who might feel the need to limit seditious and treasonous activities by the right.

To compare this to Dubya is really off the mark.

Media giants in Venezuela are Bush cronies. Trying to limit their power makes sense if they are trying to destabilize the country.

Would it make sense in the US if certain fundies were calling for insurrection against President Kerry and the toppling of our Constitutional system by violence that there might be some mad enough to threaten the right wing journalists?

I guess it all depends on your perspective.

Human rights organizations do sometimes get compromised - it happened after world war II where Nazis were "protected" by the International Rescue Committee (allegedly).

So this is an area for careful analysis and reflection and NOT a shoot from the hip kneejerk reaction to Chavez and his supporters trying to preserve their democracy (and, yes, using force to do so where it is required to preserve their democratic system).

[windansea]

12. maybe you missed this part

Under Articles 148 and 149 of the Venezuelan Criminal Code, people can be imprisoned for insulting "by speech or in writing" the president, the vice-president, the president of the legislature, the chief justice, and numerous other government officials, or by showing them "lack of respect in any other way." Article 150 prohibits anyone from insulting the legislature, the judiciary or the cabinet.

The higher the rank of the offended party, the stiffer the sentence: anyone who insults the president publicly can be jailed for up to three years and three months.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/07/venez071803.htm

also, implying that Amnesty International or Human Rights watch may be "compromised" is laughable...check the 2 sites out and you will see they were very critical of abuses against Chavez and supporters during the coups etc

[KenLayedOff]

13. Article 150 prohibits anyone from insulting the legislature, the judiciary

or the cabinet. Holy shit!!! Who and when did that bomb get installed into the VCC?

OMG! That is FUBAR!

[dax]

19. In America, they can send you to prison for insulting the President...

or you can be held at Gitmo indefinitely for looking like a terrorist-people are disappearing without a phone call EVERY DAY right now in America, whisked off flights without a call home and held-then released without explanation to baffled families. I can't link all the stories but I have read several. I had a friend vist from Great Britain-a blond blue eyed kindergarten teacher- and they held her for 36 hours without a phone call because ten years ago she overstayed a visa by one day (she had gotten ill on a vacation) so look homeward little angel

[windansea]

26. when in doubt

change the subject

PS Please post links to US laws that prohibit insulting or disrespecting the president, I'm sure we'd all be interested

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

47. A guy went to jail for saying burning bush.

I'm sure you'll run too look it up. Also people were almost arrested in a mall for wearing peace on earth shirts. Go figure, democracy is a funny thing.

[windansea]

52. you look it up

:)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

54. And take all the fun away from you? Call your friend Google.

[windansea]

91. what?? I gotta support your posts? n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

92. If you're not interested in the truth that's your problem not mine.

I think one should know about one's own country before preaching to others about their's but that's just me, I guess.

[windansea]

95. ever hear of dual citizenship?

funny...lots of people here seem to think they know what's best for Venezuela...but they have lots of "opinions"

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

97. They certainly do. Don't THEY?

Que? Se supone que eres Venezolano/a. Pues dilo que a todos nos interesaria mucho.

[windansea]

98. heh heh

your translation program is a bit off...at least you are trying

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

99. De verdad? Fijate que no soy Cervantes

pero te puedo dar unas clases cuando tu quieras. No tengo que tratar. Por algo estudie en el Colegio San Ignacio de Loyola. Asi que ya sabes que puedes hacer con tus comentaritos arrogantes.

[windansea]

104. whatever gringo

don't go to far south with that act...I'm trying not to imagine the accent that goes with that hacked up spanish

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

105. Ahora soy gringo?

Bendito, pobre escualido. Tu en mi barrio no duras ni 5 segundos. Riquitos arrogantes no llegan lejos donde se bate el cobre. Yo lo sabia un golpista disfrazado. Te lo digo en español, ingles, italiano. Tu pide que hay. Asi que imaginate todo lo que te salga del....

[seventhson]

62. That is precisely the point.

I do not intend to try to justify oppressive laws.

My point is that we are the pot calling the kettle black.

Right now the Bush administration is behind the media and the opposition to democracy there.

This may in essence be the equivalent of an "anti-bullying" law.

I know nothiung about the law or its enforcement and whether it is even used.

I would be interested in how and when it has been used.

But Dax makes the excellent point that the US is no better and is getting worse.

Repression here is growing daily. Death threats and threats of ciolence and governement intimidation are becoming commonplace here in America. It reeks. Remember the college student after 9-11 who was visited by the FBI for her dorm room POSTER?

All I am saying is that if we were in the middle of a coup and the Democratically elected government with popular support needed to institute some temporary measures to prevent FASCISTS from taking over - I could probably live with it. I would not like it, but I understand the possible need for it.

That said, such restrictions (as in Cuba) restricting freedom of speech ALWAYS suck. But in the event of a coup attempt, efforts against the coup plotters may be justified.

Treason is NOT protected by freedom of speech - i.e. an attempt to foment an illegal coup should not necessarily always be protected.

But I have to admit, the more I think about it the slippier a slope it is.

I guess it is up to US to stop Bush from fomenting a coup abroad so that such repressive laws are not needed inthose countries. Once the USA will protect democracies wherever they are (even when we disagree with their policies) THEN they will probably not need such laws unless their own internal fascists are receiving huge external funding from other sources.

Oh well. It stinks. The whole thing. Like Haiti. and Iraq.

And it is all Nader's fault

[pescao]

57. no-one went to jail for this:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1025

if u had any idea how much the venezuelan mainstream media attack (or 'disrespect') chávez ("the monkey", "the nigger", "the idiot", "the peasant", "the madman", "the hitler...") u wouldn't dare post such blatant propaganda (and btw both HRW and AI are compromised up to their asses - just ask noam chomsky or greg palast).

the chávez government are constantly urging their supporters for restraint against the journos; it just happens that alot of the chavistas are seriously pissed-off at the way the private media lie and twist their coverage to make them look like stupid, scary, violent thugs, and sometimes, in a violent place like venezuela (3 guns/person - not including police), that crosses the line into intimidation. however, this is nothing compared to what the so-called peaceful opposition do, eg burning down parts of the state tv channel's offices just a day or so ago; that was by the same 'peaceful protesters' who were chucking molotovs at soldiers - very peaceful, very democratic!

just to give a personal example, i've just got back after two months there with my three-yr-old kid, who now knows the words (in english and spanish) for gun, bomb, explosion, and all sorts of other stuff that we'd managed to 'shield' him from here in the UK. television programming there is outrageous, especially during the 'strike' of a year ago when they showed non-stop violent imagery for two months - including during 'kids tv' time every afternoon. there have been many reported cases of psychological disturbances in children stemming from that, yet the 'democratic' opposition, in this case in the form of the private media, make no apologies - for them, there is nothing they would not do to oust chávez.

which isn't really on, when u think about it. i mean, it's the public's airwaves, not gustavo cisneros' (though he probably doesn't think of it that way). the broadcasting spectrum belongs to the public, in return for using it the private media has many responsibilities, which to be honest it isn't living up to. many people, including myself, think chávez has been too lenient with the media, though of course he is to be commended for being so. but shame on u for spreading (and presumably believing) such transparent propaganda. if u bother comparing this government to any previously in venezuela, or for that matter, comparing it to the government next door in colombia (where on average three trade unionists are murdered every week) - that's colombia, the US' great ally in the war of spreading democracy, recipient of massive US military aid, currently home to 14,000 US troops (yikes!) - the difference in respect for human rights is clear, yet u never hear that mentioned in the mainstream media. wonder why? because colombia = massive profits for US corporations + assassinations of unionists, farmers, rival political leaders; venezuela = small profits for US corporation + plenty of money to spend on the people, schools, hospitals, universities, land reform, cheap food, women's banks, real participatory democracy, &c, &c...

[seventhson]

63. Thanks Pescao for that VERY informative and insightful personal account

I really appreciate it when we get an intelligent perspective rather than a kneejerk one.

I know from personal experience about the compromised positions of some human rights organizations (who are funded by big corporations sometimes) and it is certainly NOT beyond the pale to imagine this.

Perhaps some citations from Palast or Chomsky would help if you have them handy.

But this insight is really helpful for me.

It is just too sad what evil Bush has wrought on the earth.

[Just Me]

11. Kenwayoff,...apparently you have not been paying attention.

Or,...you are another "plant". Have you ever heard of the proposition that, "as you point your finger, three are pointing back at you"?

If you are demanding perfection,...better demand it from yourself, first.

Why don't you demand a "special panel" to investigate the problems within your own country? Our country, embarassingly, has one of the highest rates of criminal violence in the civilized world; and has one of the highest rates of domestic terrorism; and is competitive in terms of poverty and inadequate health care for its people; and has a horrific record of domestic and child abuse; and has problems with merely educating its people; and executes juveniles.

Before demanding "perfection" and pretending to be from a place of "righteousness",...why don't you recognize just how impoverished and empty you are in failing to address the real life problems which possess your own home?

[KenLayedOff]

14. Most people are are guilty of not paying enough attention to detail

I'm not sure to what to make of your missive against me but I think it may require a self-reflection on your part. Please forgive me if I am wrong but I think I am not.

[KenLayedOff]

17. perfection

What country is closest to perfection in your mind?

[lostnfound]

28. Seems the TV stations there really do incite violence..

as seen in the documentary, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.

He would do better to regulate them, then slam them with financial penalties, perhaps, and use the money to develop some higher-quality public programming.

[KenLayedOff]

29. Yes, censorship is always the last resort

of tyrants. Public programming indeed...

[Vladimir]

58. I couldn't care less

So Chavez sees taking care of the poor and starving as a higher priority than protecting the rights of the media? And I am meant to care? Damn, but my sympathy is all out today...

V

[seventhson]

7. At least some of these reports indicate right wing (antiChavez) killings

included in the alerts seeking protection for human rights workers.

These allegations are NOT against Chavez but alerts pertaining to Venezuela in general related to right wing attacks against human rights activists.

[KenLayedOff]

8. That is good

I am seeing some real problems on both sides and it may be time for a neutralparty to step in. I hope Jimmy Carter can help fix the problems.

[windansea]

9. there are abuses on both sides n/t

[Just Me]

15. Follow the money,...of course, you would know that already, huh.

NED, SUMATE and USAID. Follow those dollars whose backers don't give a shit about "democracy" but rather seek to fill their own black-holed greed. TAKE THAT IN!!!

[windansea]

16. not sure what your post has to do with

the UN ambassador resigning...perhaps you could educate us

[ze_dscherman]

64. Not only Venezuela

I don't mean to defend undemocratic behaviour or human rights violations. I do not doubt these things happen in Venezuela.

But to put things into the right perspective, please remember that this is quite common in many other countries the U.S. is good friends with. Just look this up on the very same sites cited on Venezuela.

It is a common method of political PR to repeatedly report wrongdoings of the foe, while keeping quite about what happens in friendly regimes.

[windansea]

18. watching CNN tonight (Cooper)

they had footage of the riots, a young woman getting tossed around like a rag doll by riot police, a young man with blood all over his face...it was very brutal

[KenLayedOff]

20. That really sucks

Was it Chavez police that abused the young woman? I hope not because this will work against him and his efforts to bring equality among the people.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

21. Just like Florida I guess.

Where they also beating up old people?

[dax]

22. Maybe you should direct your horror at the US funding the opposition...

The Administration has funded a variety of thug groups in Venezuala to try and undermine Chavez since the election. The Venezuelan elite would love to get the world to look the other way and allow the US to finish the job and return the control to them so they can sell Haliburton the oil fields-don't be naive. All your posts appear disturbingly naive to me-you just suck up that propaganda and spit it right back out. How about we let the Venezualans work out what they want without US INTEFERENCE-this Administration does not respect democratically elected governments if they don't play ball with the International Monetary Fund and sign over their assets to the Corporations-that is the main reason they hate Chavez- he won't do it. Your tax dollars are probably PAYING FOR those riots you deplore. (or else they are using drug money-these special ops have to be done off budget you know and the US Govt is the world's largest drug dealer or did you just happen to "miss" the Iran-Contra hearings?)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

23. Our tax dollars at work.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0412-08.htm

[windansea]

24. which posts?

the ones with links to Amnesty International & Human Rights Watch?

Try sucking up some of that propaganda.

or the one about CNN coverage??

Have any friends in Venezuela?? talk to them lately? I did, and no, they are not members of the elite, and they didn't have much good to say about Chavez

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

31. Tell you what.

I see you jumping all over this board with you reports and all that. That's great. Now it seems to me that every abuse committed by any number of individuals in Haiti or Venezuela gets attributed to those leaders. OK fair enough. It seems the overthrow of the aforementioned leaders is OK with you because you seem to think these are popular uprisings. Cool. Now I have some money coming in from over seas. The purpose of this money is nothing less than the overthrow the US government, by any means. Will you join me in my quest? No matter how you slice it this whole shit with Chavez started because he has refused to conform to the Neo-liberal policies that have decimated Latin America. Period. No US bullshit no opposition, no human rights violations. Unless a country is being run by Gandhi, if someone tries to overthrow it there is going to be violence. It seems to me you expect other world leaders to put up with shit you don't expect your own to put up with. Don't even try to bring up this recycled rigged election shit with me because 2000 proved that this country is not even a Pseudo Democracy anymore. So come on pick that M16 and that machete and let's do this shit.

(For disclosure purposes - Dear FBI man this is just a scenario to prove a point to this person. Please don't arrest me. Sincerely. Me)

[KenLayedOff]

35. pick that M16 and that machete and let's do this shit

Do what shit? Normal Americans can't own an M16 and citizens of several states in the US are not allowed to own a machete without a permit.

So what do you mean?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

37. Since the whole thing went over your head.

Let me explain the M16 are a metaphor for the arms that the US provided to Haiti. Since I was talking to a person who seems to be an expert on Latin America I think they'll get it. It also seems to me that if you need a permit for a machete, for Koresh's sake, this country is in deeper shit that I thought. And what the hell is a "Normal American"?

[windansea]

48. the smoking guns

when they disbanded the Haitian army many of the soldiers (some are with rebel groups now) kept their weapons. The US supplied those weapons originally...as for rumors that rebels were more recently armed with weapons from the Dominican Republic...I haven't seen any real proof...it's a very porous border...lots of drug smuggling going on...1,000,000 Haitians live in the DR...many scenarios are possible

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

49. You said it. Many scenarios are possible.

Anyone who has studied the history of US interventionism would be suspicious immediately. Maybe maybe not but one thing's for sure.We're never going to get the truth from the criminals in charge. I mean we never have before.

[windansea]

41. the pen is mightier than the sword

the keyboard too...so I'll have to decline

and many of the links I've posted also document abuses by opposition groups as well...use them to prove your points

actually there's a certain billionaire from Hungary who's using his money to help Democrats win back the presidency, not sure I trust the guy though...

here's an amusing article, considering the source

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97feb/capital/capital.htm

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

43. Those our nice words.

But in Venezuela they're playing for keeps. So does our Gov. So the point is if it is OK for them to do it and paralyze the country. Let's do it here and let's see how far we get in the land of the free.

I've got a saying too:
No hay peor ciego, que el que no quiere ver.

Roughly translated (There is no more severe blindness than the one in a person who does not want to see.)

[windansea]

51. I speak spanish

and my vision is quite good...on another topic...what's with the big blank space in all your posts? do you have a graphic that's not working?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

53. Good for you.

I don't see any blank spaces over here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

46. And yes you are right. Soros ain't shit.

But last time I checked he wasn't conspiring to finance W's kidnapping or possible murder like another certain leader had to endure.

[Vladimir]

59. Ouch

I mean ouch baby. OUCH.

V

[gulfcoastliberal]

84. Maybe the "girl" Was Doing Something Like this:

What would you expect the police to do in such a situation?

[Freddie Stubbs]

66. Here's one

Cellist Carlos Eduardo Izcaray should have been directing the Venezuelan Symphony Orchestra on Thursday in a performance of Dvoraks Eighth Symphony.

Instead, he was recovering in a Caracas clinic from what he described as a brutal beating and torture administered by the National Guard.

Izcarays testimony, and that of dozens of others who assert they also were abused in recent days, points to the increasingly brutal treatment of opponents of President Hugo Chávez amid violent protests demanding his resignation.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8110182.htm

Sound like it is a lot worse that just property redistribution.

[bemildred]

67. Your link is broke, no such story there.

I found a couple Spanish language sources for it,
nothing on Google except Vcrisis.

[bemildred]

68. Pictures of the demos

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16235

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. The link seems to be working now

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/8110182.htm

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

69. Wouldn't the DLC boys refer to him as collateral damage?

Just wondering.

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. It is hard to 'accidentialy' torture someone

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

74. I know.

It's also hard to accidentally back wars of aggression in which thousands of civilians die and are called collateral damage. Isn't it? Neither is targeting civilians. But when we do it it's OK. If you're so concerned about torture and murder you can also look up what the Policia Metropolitana do to poor people. The anti Chavez Caracas mayor is in charge of that jolly bunch. Oh but the press doesn't like to talk about that.

[bemildred]

75. Can't find him anywhere but Vcrisis and Miami Herald still.

The link is OK now BTW.
Gotta wonder what is up there, I would expect this to be covered.

[Dover]

25. Now there's an idea. Maybe we ALL should quit our jobs to protest Bush

I'll bet it would be a LOT more effective than street protests.

[windansea]

27. CNN article

Milos Alcalay told a news conference at U.N. headquarters that his key concerns throughout a 34-year diplomatic career were to promote democracy, human rights and a non-confrontational foreign policy.

"Sadly, Venezuela now is operating devoid of these fundamental principles, which I still remain intensely committed to, he said.

"The increasing bipolarization and problems we are experiencing at home in Venezuela have impacted our relationships around the world," he said.

snip

There was no immediate official reaction in Caracas, but a Foreign Ministry source in Caracas, who asked not to be named, told Reuters, "It's a private decision by a person who had supported the government of President Hugo Chavez, but has now apparently broken as a result of the events in Venezuela."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/04/venezuela.un.reut/index.html

[KenLayedOff]

30. Wait a minute here

Chavez was democratically elected. That means he can make up any rules he wants to keep the sheeple in line.

[windansea]

33. this guy was a huge supporter of Chavez

his resignation and critical comments speak loudly

[AP]

50. Anyone who has been in Venezuelan politics for 34 years probably isn't

totally committed to Bolivarian principles.

He's probably the Norm Minetta of Venezeulan politics -- the guy from the other team they kept so they could have the appearance of bipartisanship.

[AP]

79. Apparently this guy supported the coup in April 2002...

Movimiento Quinta Republica (MVR) foreign affairs committee president, Tarek William Saab has criticized Milos Alcalay for resigning his post at the United Nations, saying Alcalay supported the 2-day government of Pedro Carmona Estanga in April, 2002 ... "we have respected Milos Alcalay's diplomatic career and in that sense, his attitude lacks credibility and is hypocritical." Saab recalls the deaths, and dissolution of public powers during the Carmona period and accuses Alcalay of then remaining silent.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16234

[bemildred]

83. Yeah, I saw that.

Sounded like some other holdovers might be going too.
I have a feeling some stuff is going on behind the scenes
that prompted this. I would speculate that it reflects
Hugo getting people more to his own liking in the diplomatic
corps, which probably indicates he feels more secure and
able to insist on having his way.

[AP]

86. Which I see is a good thing. They were already going to send this guy off

to be ambassador to the UK.

The UK is, more or less, a friendly government for Venezuela (I believe the british oil companies are signing fair contracts with Venezuela and want a stable Chavez gov't).

So they were going to get this guy out of the NY and the UN where he was probably being tempted by Bush cronies anyway. If he wanted to sell out, staying close to the UN was probably where he wanted to be. Sending him to London was, possibly, removing the temptation to cooperate with the black hats. I wonder if the (perhaps) demotion was the reason he quit.

Who wants to bet that he goes to work for a US oil company next.

[bemildred]

87. Sounds about right.

I too would be interested to see where he goes next.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

34. There is no one that deserves to be called sheeple more than

the people of the USA. I mean they work for the largest criminal enterprise ever devised by man and they don't even know it. Not only that, they go around the world preaching democracy. While their own government continuously destroys it in the third world. Yes what a great people sitting in their fat asses all day while the constitution and Bill of Rights are slowly being taken apart. Then they applaud at the illegal overthrows of elected leaders paid by their taxes through their corporations. Isn't it wonderful?

[KenLayedOff]

36. What country do you hail from?

You disgust of America is duly noted. What country do you proudly hail?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

38. First of all America is not a country. It's a continent.

Second since apparently you can't tell by the flag. Let me explain to you that as a citizen I hail from the same place as you. So I guess that gives me the right to criticize my own people as much as I want. Is that duly noted as well. Hey right down take a picture too I don't give a shit. My disgust is with the government that claims to represent ma and its imperial subjects that don't seem to know shit about the rest of the world but can sure tell people how to run their affairs. Salud...

[KenLayedOff]

39. So what do you propose we do?

The M16 and shit is not on the menu here so what do you propose?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

40. Well what kind of heat are you packin'?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If these people can dispose of their leaders by force with outside money I'm sure we can do the same. I mean who is more corrupt than the whores we call leaders? We can also go on national strikes and cripple the economy like they did in Venezuela. Yeah that will teach them. Except that those responsible were comfortably hiding in Miami while they had their tools wrecking havoc. The point is if someone wants to overthrow any regime they have to expect violence. We in this country should know about that. Try it here and see how far we get.

[KenLayedOff]

42. You lost me again

-hiding in Miami while they had their tools wrecking havoc.-

What do you mean by that? What does Miami have to do with this issue?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

44. OK keep up.

If you are going to talk about Venezuela I expect you to know this shit. The elite responsible for the "general strike" and all the shit that's been happening were all hiding in Miami in their vacation homes. While a lot of poor suckers were going weeks without pay to strike for them. What did that get them? You tell me.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

45. You also don't seem to be all that good at getting sarcasm.

I'm only half seriously joking.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Smirky! Do you remember that on the day the whole world was demonstrating

against _Bush's bogus war on Iraq, the Miami Cuban and Venezuelan right-wing "exiles" were having their joint "Mega March?"

One of their guests of honor was the utterly corrupt NED-bought union boss, Carlos Ortega. I believe he's hiding in another country presently.

Yep, as the whole world mourned the right-wing attack on humanity, Miami's Cuban and Venezuelan right-wingers staggered up and down the streets, congratulating each other on their mutual hatred of democracy:

(snip) Posted on Sun, Jan. 19, 2003
60,000 join anti-Chavez rally

Cries of outrage echo on Calle Ocho

BY KARL ROSS AND ANDREA ELLIOTT

[e-mail]


In one of Miami's largest political rallies, tens of thousands of Venezuelans and other marchers transformed Calle Ocho into a torrent of outrage Saturday over President Hugo Chávez's controversial and embattled reign.

The ''Mega March'' -- largely the initiative of Cuban-American activists -- peacefully galvanized South Florida's Venezuelan community in numbers that rival those of protesters following the repatriation in 2000 of child rafter Elián González.

Banging on pots and pans, waving flags and shouting Ni un paso atras -- ''Not one step backward'' -- a crowd estimated by police to be 60,000 emulated the rallying cry of Venezuelans at home. A national labor stoppage there has paralyzed the economy and ratcheted political tensions to the point, observers predict, of civil war.

''Now we know we're not alone in this struggle,'' said Antonio Ledesma, a key opposition leader and former mayor of Caracas who traveled to Miami for the event. ``This is significant because it represents the internationalization of the protest in Venezuela.''
(snip)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/4981079.htm

Memorable quote from the article:
''If we don't read history we're condemned to repeat it,'' said Cuban-American George Espinoza, 42.
~~~~Hey, thanks, George~~~~

[pescao]

60. i wonder when those laws above were passed

this is different from usual:

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1078381547330

Venezuela: Plan B

Published: March 5 2004 4:00 | Last Updated: March 5 2004 4:00

The apparent thwarting of a campaign to force a recall referendum on Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez has left his opponents angry and frustrated. Tensions have erupted into violence in the past few days and the controversial leader has been polishing up his vitriolic anti-American rhetoric. Venezuela's strategic importance as a big power in the oil market and a significant direct supplier to the US means this is yet another hotspot that requires high-level attention in Washington. Yet as they consider their options US officials need some fresh thinking.

...

Second, open confrontation with Mr Chávez has failed before and is likely to fail again. Venezuela is not Haiti and it would be unrealistic for the opposition to expect US marines to come to their rescue. Mr Chávez can count on the support of the armed forces. His country's institutions have been weakened but are intact and the rise in the oil price - which reached a post-Iraq-war high on Monday - has buoyed his country's economic prospects.

The Organisation of American States and other western governments must keep pressing Mr Chávez. But these efforts will be helped if Venezuela's opposition and its supporters in Washington start to take Chavismo more seriously. The opposition has consistently underestimated Mr Chávez's support and tended to write off his demagoguery as a temporary aberration in Venezuela's democratic development. In fact, the president is more substantial and durable than this.

More attention needs to be paid to the fact that millions of Venezuelans support their leader. Whether or not he is in power, Mr Chávez is likely to be a factor in his country's politics for years and possibly decades to come. Recognising that would be the first step in developing a more realistic policy.

[bemildred]

65. Always nice to read something well thought out.

Especially with the quantity of PR bullshit floating
around in the bowl.
:hi:

[AP]

76. The tone of this article is "how to deal with the problem of Chavez in...

...a less overtly fascistic way."

Why isn't it about the overt fascism of trying to deal with Chavez as if he were a probleml? He's only a problem to the fascists.

[windansea]

77. if Chavez is so popular

why is he trying to thwart the recall?? or delay it so that if he loses his right hand man will take over

[AP]

78. If Chavez is so unpopular, why did the opposition forces have to have

snipers take head shots at pro-Chavez suporters during the coup, and why did the media have to splice together newsreal footage that told a lie about who was shooting at whom, and why do the private tv stations tell lies all day long and why did they jam the frequency of the state-run station during the coup?

In fact, why was there a coup?

[windansea]

80. I don't support the coup

the referendum I do support

From The Economist:

Time was when Latin American rulers would lose an election but still manage to win it during the vote count. But it is a novelty for a vote to be stolen before it has even been scheduled. According to Venezuela's opposition, that is just what the country's increasingly authoritarian president, Hugo Chávez, is trying to do with a recall referendum which-if it ever happens-could bring his populist government to an abrupt end.

Ironically, Mr Chávez was once a great enthusiast for the idea of recall referendums, an innovation in a new constitution he sponsored in 1999. No longer. The electoral council (CNE) was slow to issue rules for referendums, so two previous opposition attempts were ruled invalid. Last year, the CNE finally drew up guidelines; these have been followed by the Democratic Co-ordinator, the opposition umbrella group. On four days late last year, the Co-ordinator gathered over 3m signatures calling for the plebiscite. The CNE's rules were so strict that, for example, petition forms were printed on bank security paper to avoid fraud. The signature-gathering went smoothly, witnessed by officials from the government, the opposition and the CNE. But on day three, when it became clear that the number of signatures would easily exceed the 2.4m (20% of the electorate) required, Mr Chávez denounced the exercise as a "mega-fraud". If the CNE called the referendum, he would not recognise it. But the president then backtracked, saying he would respect the council's decision and calling on the opposition to do the same. Why? Perhaps because the CNE's board, three of whose five members appear to support the government, is itself throwing up obstacles. It is already a month late in ruling on whether a referendum should take place. And it has been making up new rules as it goes along. On February 24th, the CNE ruled that signatures will be annulled if the accompanying personal details were penned by another hand (eg, if they were taken down by the referendum organisers)-unless the signatories individually confirm during a five-day period that they really did sign. That should be enough to abort the referendum.

The Organisation of American States (OAS), which has observed the process, is said to have discussed pulling out if what it has called "excessive technicalities" take precedence over the will of the electorate. It is no mere onlooker. Together with the Carter Centre, headed by Jimmy Carter, a former American president, it did much to persuade the opposition to take the referendum route (despite its fears that Mr Chávez would bend the rules). Both are guarantors of a deal struck in May 2003 in which government and opposition agreed to abide by the constitution. "No tricks!", warned Mr Carter at the time. Absent a referendum, many would argue that Mr Chávez was no longer ruling as a democrat. Venezuela would risk expulsion from the OAS for violating its Democratic Charter. That decision might be closely fought. Mr Chávez would hope for many votes from the small states of the English-speaking Caribbean, to whom he supplies cheap oil. He recently visited neighbouring Guyana, where he downplayed Venezuela's claim to that country's Essequibo territory. A sudden about-turn aimed at forestalling diplomatic isolation, said opponents. But if forced to choose between isolation and power, Mr Chávez might prefer to walk alone.

http://www.economist.com/World/la/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2463548


Simply put, why the opposition objects the CNE’s decision, which is wht Sobella Mejias argued today:

1) It was not illegal, according to the regulations written by this CNE to fill out the data for the person signing the petition. In fact, it explicitly says the signature is the only part that has to be filled by the person signing.

2) It changes the law; the procedure proposed by the CNE, puts the burden of proof on the person that already signed to demonstrate that it did. That was the objective of the petition drive. People were asked for their ID cards, there were CNE observers and opposition witnesses. The forms were tightly controlled by the CNE.

3) The regulations contemplate that people will be able to participate in the correction process only if one of two possibilities occur: 1) If the CNE made a material error. 2) If the person appears signing the petition but did not. The forms with the same calligraphy do not fall in any of these two categories.

another article

CNE Director Jorge Rodríguez affirmed yesterday that no regulations for the petition for the recall referendum had been modified after they were issued. This is not true. The resolution by the CNE by which the regulations were issued and named “Regulations to regulate the recall referendum processes to revoke the mandates of popularly elected positions” was approved on September 25th. 2003 and appeared published in the Electoral Gazette on September 26th. In it, there is no reference to the forms with the same calligraphy for the data of those signing the petition. In November, on a date as yet not specified, a directive was approved aimed at the observers of the process of gathering the signatures, which were persons appointed by the CNE and should have followed the instructions. In these instructions, in its second page, there is a note that says:” Important: The data in the form for gathering signatures mentioned before, should be registered by the person signing, after the presentation of the national ID card (even if it has expired) in front of the agent collecting the signatures”.


This note alters substantially Article 29 of said regulations which in its number 5 establishes that a signature will be invalidated “if it is determined that the same signature comes from the same person”. Neither in that article nor in any other article of the same, there is even the slightest mention to the effect that the signatures for which the data is not filled by the person signing will be invalidated. This directive changed in November, a rule of the game issued in September. Or not, Dr. Rodríguez? It is also true and should be said, that the CNE Published in Ultimas Noticias (a local newspaper) the day before and during the two first days of both petition drives, a full page ad, with instruction for those signing , which in its part 5 said: “You should fill the form with your data”. But this is even worse: The same days of the signature collection, those signing were informed of a rule, which had never been mentioned previously.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/02/26.html

[AP]

81. The economist and OAS has no credibility with me.

[windansea]

82. of course they don't

only those who support your opinion have credibility right?

how bout Jimmy Carter??

[AP]

85. What has credibility with me is the documentary, The Revolution Will Not..

...be Televised, and the pieces I put together and make sense of when I listen to the New York Times, the Economist and NPR telling lies for the Bush administration and when I read news sources like www.vheadlines.com and http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/.

I didn't have a an opoinion first to which everything had to conform.

Oh, and I'm also not an inveterate denier, which helps me put the pieces together and make sense of things.

[KenLayedOff]

88. vheadline.com is very pro-Chavez

It is not a news reporting site it is a mouthpiece for Chavez. That's fine with me but they ahould never be used as an unbiased source.

[AP]

89. My point is that you pick up ALL the pieces and put them together, from

the pro-Chavez stuff to the anti-Chavez stuff, and you toss in the documentary movie to which I referred, and throw in some history, and what you know about Chile and Argentina, and a picture forms.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

93. Why not?

People here here take the NY Times, Wash Post, and CNN at their word. Everyone here knows they're full of shit and still present them as respectable sources.

[windansea]

90. the coup was wrong

but using that as justification for the Chavez govt's actions is weak

I don't think you understand how Chavez is trying to subvert the constitutionally guaranteed right for a referendum...here's a short history on it...and why people are rioting now...and remember...each and every signature was taken with witnesses from the govt CNE, opposition groups, and the Carter Center, people had to show identification, the form was printed on special fraud proof paper, and they took a thumbprint.

Hugo Chavez was elected in December 1998. One of the first things he did was to call for a Constituent Assembly to rewrite the Constitution. This was done through a referendum, a figure which appeared nowhere in the old Constitution. But through a popular petition, it was done.

The new Constitution, contemplated two types of referenda: Consultative referenda, where the people would vote on important issues and would require 10% of the registered voters to sign a petition and Recall Referenda, where people would be able to request for a recall referendum after the midpoint of the term of any elected official.

Contrary to popular perception, it was not Chavez that introduced this concepts into the Constitution, they were introduced in the project to change the Venezuelan Constitution by the COPRE in the mid-90’s and it was lawyer Ricardo Combellas, who coincidentally no longer backs Chavez, who introduced their discussion in the Constituent Assembly.

In November 2002, before the strike, the opposition began gathering signatures for a Consultative referendum asking whether the people approved or not of the job President Hugo Chávez was doing. On January 23d. 2003, the Venezuelan Supreme Court ruled that the referendum could not take place, not because the question was illegal, as the pro-Chávez forces requested, but because the Court said no elections or referenda could take place in Venezuela until a new Electoral Board (CNE) was elected by the National Assembly.

After many attempts of trying to choose an Electoral Board, the Supreme Court stepped in and said that since the Assembly had left a legal void by not naming the new CNE and thus it would name one which would be in place until the Assembly fulfilled its obligation. (It never did)

The day after the mid-term of President Hugo Chavez, the opposition submitted 3 million signatures collected in a petition drive which it submitted to the new CNE. One month later in mid-September, the new CNE said that the petition was unacceptable because there were no regulations on how to do it and it would issue the regulations soon.

The CNE in early October issue the regulations. They were absurd for a petition. Essentially, the CNE would issue forms printed on money paper. During four consecutive days, those that asked for the petition would set up booths, much like polling booths, in the presence of a CNE representative and many witnesses from the other side to gather signatures. The people would have to sign and leave their fingerprint on the form. Each form had ten lines and it contained the name, the birthdate and the National ID number of the person signing. There were very specific regulations as to how the fingerprint should be stamped, you should write clearly, don’t go over the boundary etc. But the regulations did not say anything about the person signing having to fill out their own personal data.

One troublesome aspect of the petition drive is that the results would be made public, putting pressure on Government employees and the military not to sign and those living abroad could not participate, despite the fact that the Constitution says they have a right to participate in electoral processes.

Despite the hurdles, the opposition gathered 3.6 million signatures of the 2.436 million needed and turned in 3.4 million to the CNE.

This was all handed in before Christmas and despite the fact that the law says the CNE has one month to say whether the signatures are there or not, it has been two and a half months and no answer has been given to the opposition petition (or that against Deputies on both sides)

Half way through the verification of the signatures, where just the data was being checked, it looked like clear sailing, rejection rates were running at 5-9% in the first 13 states verified. Suddenly, the CNE technicians decided to declare under observation all the forms in which the data was filled by the same person, i.e. had the same calligraphy the so called “planas”, but the signatures were different. These occurred because in an effort to make sure the signatures would be validate, those collecting the signatures would fill out the data in some booths and simply have the person sign and stamp the signatures. This was done according to regulations that said only the signature needed to be by the person. Similarly no rule said this was a reason to eliminate a signature.

Reportedly, the CNE has certified valid 1.914 million signatures, has placed under observation 750,000 and ahs rejected 718,000 either because of data inconsistency or because the cover sheet that accompanies the form (the “acta”) had a number different than the total in the form.

What the CNE proposes is to have people go back and ratify or conform that they did sign only for the “planas” and those forms that had other errors, but not for the 714,000 to technical problems.

Thus in one word, the opposition would need (doable but difficult) that over 70% of the people that sign the “planas” go back and confirm they did.

The opposition has argued that the CNE is changing the burden of proof, presuming those signing are guilty without having any proof and says why not ratify ALL signatures, particularly those that have problems with the “Actas” and inconsistencies with the electoral registry.

In the end, this has been an obstacle course for the opposition which has complied with every step, despite the difficulties introduced. However, the pro-Chavez members dominate the Board of the CNE by a three to two margin. People feel cheated; think the system is unfair, that the rules should not be changed on the fly. Last Friday, during the G-15 summit in Caracas a huge opposition demonstration was met with excessive force, two people die and 40 were injured. Since then there have been continuous protests and clashes with the military police and the National Guard. Human Rights have not been respected and over one hundred people have been jailed, some without charges or due process. The CNE and the opposition negotiate at this time a possible compromise on the signatures.

But we did not have to get this far. This is only a petition to have a recall vote. Who is afraid of the actual recall vote? Not the opposition.

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/03/02.html#a1338

[pescao]

101. bullshit

"and remember...each and every signature was taken with witnesses from the govt CNE, opposition groups, and the Carter Center"

not true, the opposition had the signature sheets for two weeks before they handed them to the CNE; wonder what they used that time for? can u spell - megafraud? which brings us to the only real question, can the opposition get the 60% validation they need? obviously they think not, otherwise they wouoldn't be rioting, those beautiful losers. but in reality, if there was no fruad, there would be no problem getting them all validated; after all, they signed, right? unless...

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

102. Are you implying they would cheat? No, take it back. It's slander.

<sar-casm over-lo-ad must stop....>

[AP]

103. good point.

[windansea]

115. Barney Frank

US Congressman Barney Frank:

"I am very disappointed at the Venezuelan National Electoral Council's use of hyper-technical points and controversial procedural rulings to repress what appears to be the clear will of a sufficient number of Venezuelan citizens to move the country to a constitutional referendum on President Chavez"

[AP]

116. Barney Frank never liked Chavez...

April 17, 2002:

Most recently, we had the administration outrageously both incompetent and insensitive with regard to democratic values with regard to Venezuela. There was a coup in Venezuela against a president for whom I would not have voted and who I would wish would be voted out of office, but the notion that it is okay for America to disregard our supposed commitment to democratic values because we do not like the president who was elected is unfortunate, and it is even worse when it is done in such an incompetent fashion.

http://www.house.gov/frank/bush_policy_2002.html

[bemildred]

117. Frankly, I don't care what Barney thinks about it. nt

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

118. Aparently he does.

The same crappy quote is posted in every Chavez thread.

[windansea]

119. mommy

make him stop :cry:

[rman]

55. it's disgust of criminal behaviour of certain very powerfull rulers,

not disgust of any particular nation.
..where Chavez (or Aristide for that matter) is not one of the very powerfull; certain other rulers have much more wealth, and by extension, much more power. i think we all know who they are.

[bemildred]

61. What does it mean?

I had a chance to think this over.

You have a professional diplomat, with 34 years of service,
going back way before Chavez, about to be reposted to Britain
from the UN.

He has been a supporter of Chavez, but suddenly with no warning
he turns around and takes his best shot at Chavez in the most
public possible way, apparently out of principle, right in the
middle of a media campaign against Chavez over the recall petitions.

So what does it mean? It means he is a tool. The questions is
why it was decided to blow whatever future value he might have
had in one shot like this for PR points.

[Serendipity36]

71. We Must surrender to peace..

It is the only way to save all our peoples of the world. No money. No borders, no greed, no hate. Only peace. The only way to win the hearts and souls of those who hate you is to make them see you care about them.

Peace for all the children.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

94. Self deleted.

[oasis]

96. Go ahead Karl Rove, you and the CIA have plenty of money for buyoffs.

[bemildred]

100. ... Embassy press attache: new diplomacy cause of Alcalay's resignation

Government response

Izarra says the new diplomacy aims at ending "cocktail and etiquette Ambassadors" and plums(sic) for diplomats that get out
and work for Venezuela.

Speaking on State VTV's "Opinion" program, Izarra says "it seems that Alcalay has rejected the Foreign Minister's
new diplomacy of working for the country, its institutions, the President and the Venezuelan people."

The Washington press attache rejects Alcalay's charges of human rights abuses leveled at President Chavez Frias,
countering that this is the diplomat's only HR denunciation in "34 years of service to the real Mandarins of power
that installed themselves in the Foreign Ministry."

...

In the meantime, it has been learned that Venezuelan Consul Generals in the USA had met in Miami to issue a
declaration on the situation in Venezuela ... before Milos Alcalay's resignation was announced ... supporting the
constitutional government of President Hugo Chavez Frias. The signatories include: Antonio Jose Hernandez Borgo
(Miami), Martin Pacheco (Boston), Mahuampi de Ortiz (Houston), Lourdes Madriz Bustamante (New Orleans) ,
Leonor Osorio (New York).

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=16238

[windansea]

107. yeah slurp up that propaganda

thats why he was getting a posting to London 2 days before

[AP]

108. It was probably a demotion. It probably pushed him out from the hub

to the spokes where he could cause less trouble.

It's probably why he quit.

[bemildred]

109. Duh. I tend to think he was pushed.

Hence the acrimony.

[windansea]

110. bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaaha

yeah that's it...just like O'Neil and Kay hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

[bemildred]

111. No, nothing like that. nt

[AP]

112. news report:

Venezuela's recently appointed Foreign Relations Minister, Jesus Perez, characterized Alcalay's speech at the UN criticizing the government of Venezuela as an "usurpation of power". Alcalay spoke at the UN as Venezuela's Ambassador to the UN, but he was named Ambassador to Britain last month. The government claims to have known about Alcalay's collaboration with the opposition for a long time but decided to transfer him to Britain instead of firing him, out of respect for his diplomatic career.

Perez said that Alcalay's document read at the UN seems to have been written by the opposition coalition Coordinadora Democratica. "He is now free to act as international advisor to the opposition.

Chavez blamed
 
Some supporters of President Chavez have privately blamed him for keeping individuals from the opposition in key positions in the Foreign Service and government institutions. “I’m sad to say it, but it is Chavez’s own fault,” said a grassroots’ organizer at a Caracas’ assembly of socials groups who support the President. Other grassroots’ leaders argue that Chavez is not well informed by his advisers and cannot make wise decisions with regard to some appointments.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1216

[bemildred]

114. Thanks, that's good.

I disagree about blaming Chavez, you can't do everything at once.

I read elsewhere that there was a new boss for the foreign corps and
new policy being put in place, so I inferred this guy was being
edged to the side and did not like it. The fact that he decided
to burn his bridges doesn't mean it was wrong to try for something
else.

[Isome]

106. I remember...

being young and naive. I thought everything I read in the paper, or heard on the news, was gospel, politicians worked in the best interests of all the people, and this country would never do anything wrong—like orchestrate a coup or assasinate the leaders of other countries. That was then.

From Daniel Ellsberg slipping the Pentagon Papers to the NYT, to Iran-Contra, to Venezuela & Haiti, our government has been complicit in destabilizing governments, murder and mayhem across the globe. Knowing all of this, as most forward-thinking Democrats do, posts that are mere depositories for corporate-owned media propaganda make it appear as though the poster is giving tacit approval of our government's illegal activities.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

113. It's the same shit different day.