New Biden Criticism Surprises Russia

[tocqueville]

Source: NYT

By ANDREW E. KRAMER
Published: July 25, 2009

MOSCOW — Just weeks after a summit meeting intended to show a thawing in relations between the United States and Russia, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. made blistering references to Russia’s failing economy, loss of face and a leadership that is “clinging to something in the past,” in an interview published on Saturday.

Speaking on the heels of his trip to Georgia and Ukraine, Mr. Biden said flatly that the Obama administration would make no deals and accept no compromises with the Kremlin in exchange for better relations.

..............

“The reality is the Russians are where they are,” Mr. Biden told The Wall Street Journal, according to excerpts posted on the newspaper’s Web site. “They have a shrinking population base, they have a withering economy, they have a banking sector and structure that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years, they’re in a situation where the world is changing before them and they’re clinging to something in the past that is not sustainable.”

Mr. Biden rejected recent Russian assertions of a restored sphere of privileged interests in the former Soviet Union, made after the war in Georgia. He said he understood that the Russians would not embrace the American stance, but added, “I do expect them to understand we don’t accept” the Russian claims.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/26/world/europe/26russia.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

---

the Russian response is "WTF ?"

read the whole article...

pissing off Russians about their national pride is the LAST thing to do. I hope that Obama corrects this one...

[Parche]

1. Biden

and the right wingers will say that is a 'biden gaffe'

when 99% of the stuff he says is true.....

[tocqueville]

3. it might be true but he is the VP

and not all truths are to be said aloud. The Russians feel threatened by NATO expansion eastwards and one day they are going to react, exactly like the US did when Krutschev moved one of his pawns a bit to close to Florida.

[Odin2005]

7. The Russians need to learn to quit...

...thinking like they have a right to make their neighbors (like Ukraine and Georgia) satellite states, their historical paranoia about wanting buffer states be damned.

[tocqueville]

12. the Russians won't quit

it's their vital interest. You cannot impose, only negotiate. Obviously the lessons from the Bush era haven't been learned. Send heavy weapons to Georgia and you get an invasion. What next ? This is ridiculously dangerous.

[Odin2005]

36. We have no moral right to screw around in Latin America, so why should Russia be allowed...

...to behave the same way? "The US does it" is not an excuse because, obviously, we should be doing it either. Wrong is Wrong, what is right or wrong does not change just because a hypocrite says it.

[No Elephants]

26. And how did the US react when Kruschev did that? (IIRC, that distance was 90 miles.)

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

16. They may be true, but it's not exactly helpful to

say these things when you're trying to "reset" a relationship. If I were the president I'd think about quarantining Joe for a while.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Obama should send Biden to the Arctic on a 3-year fact finding mission

without a press entourage, and not a single microphone in sight.

[jeanmarc]

38. Agreed

It can help to have a good cop/bad cop strategy, but only if the 'bad' cop is in sync with what you're trying to do.

Biden has diarrhea of the mouth and thoughts and isn't even in the same police station.

[BlueMTexpat]

25. Exactly ... as one who has spent most of my professional life in the international sphere,

I have often wondered why Biden is considered to be an "expert" in foreign relations.
Make no mistake, I like Joe, and yes, he may have pegged the situation in Russia today. But Obama has signaled the "reset" and neither Ukraine or Georgia are bastions of democracy. Far from it.
So, if Joe can't follow the script and play the game, he should just keep his mouth shut. Pul-eeze.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Biden is as dead wrong about Georgia as McCain was

It was Georgia that attacked South Ossetia while peace talks were going on, triggering the Russian response.

Saying the idiotic things that Biden said about Russia, which could easily be said about the US, is a major blunder particularly at a time when we need Russia to deal with problems of terrorism and nuclear proliferation.

Looks like we elected a war hawk government in November.

[inna]

22. Biden has always been hawkish, i'm not surprised at all.

now, if Obama were spouting that kind of rhetoric, i'd be concerned and disappointed.

(on a positive side - yeah, Biden, "the senator from mbna", sucks, but... imagine Evan Bayh as VP! :crazy: personally, i'll take Biden over Bayh any time; i was really relieved when Bayh didn't get picked...)



"Looks like we elected a war hawk government in November."

yes, but! again, look at the positive side - we could've had ultra-hawkish and semi-insane "bomb, bomb, bomb iran"/"we are all georgians now" McCain, plus Palin with her delusional apocalyptic visions, only one heartbeat away from the presidency and from the nuclear football! :crazy: :scared: now, THAT is a scary thought indeed; i don't know if it's much of a consolation to you, but to me Biden's antics seem relatively innocuous in comparison! :)

[No Elephants]

28. Those were the only two choices in the universe of VP possibilities, Bayh or Biden?

Come on, now.

[inna]

34. nope, clearly not "the only two choices in the universe"; simply the top two. nt

[Schema Thing]

2. I think it's prolly a good bet that Obama and Hillary and Biden

are on the same page.

[tocqueville]

4. in that case it's even worse than I thought

the last thing we need is a new Cold War.

[inna]

23. nah, Obama made an attempt to distance himself from Biden's remarks...

further in the article:

Mr. Biden has a reputation for speaking volubly, and sometimes going beyond official policy. It was not immediately clear if he was sending an officially sanctioned message.

The White House did not back away from the vice president’s remarks on Saturday, but attempted to smooth over the frayed relations with Russia.

“The president and vice president believe Russia will work with us not out of weakness but out of national interest,” Robert Gibbs, the White House press secretary, said in a statement on Saturday night.

“The president said in Moscow that the United States seeks a strong, peaceful and prosperous Russia — one that will be an even more effective partner in meeting common challenges...

seems like Biden was simply being Biden. or alternatively, maybe it was meant to be a "good cop-bad cop" approach to Russia, in a calculated way that wouldn't antagonize the Russians against Obama but give them the "tough" message.

[No Elephants]

33. From the Russian response, it seems as though they have no patience with good cop, bad cop.

[TheLastMohican]

41. From Russian response

Biden looks like an idiot and everybody in Russia is laughing their rocks off.
Russia has been here for more than 1000 years, there were many "leaders" who tried to bury Russia, or said that its history is coming to an end.
Chingizhan, Friedrich, Bismarck, Napoleon, Hitler, where are those?


I get real feedback from Russia. Nobody there believes in that "reset" stuff.
Republican-Democrat - all cats are black at night as long as they persue the same politics.

So if Biden thinks he is smart and everybody over in Russia are crash test dummies, he should think again.

[irislake]

5. I hope to hell the U.S. government

dosen't continue "surprising" Russia. Haven't we got enough trouble in the world without stirring up more?

[Odin2005]

6. What? Honesty is bad, now?

Screw Russia's "pride"

[IndianaGreen]

19. Biden lied about Georgia, just as McCain did

Anymore of this "Change You Can Believe In" and our collective heads will explode!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Just Biden being Biden. Obama knew what he was getting.

[ShamelessHussy]

9. hmmm... something he said during the campaign about supporters being surprised - "GIRD YOUR LOINS"

"I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate," Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. "And he's gonna need help. And the kind of help he's gonna need is, he's gonna need you - not financially to help him - we're gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it's not gonna be apparent initially, it's not gonna be apparent that we're right."

source...
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/10/biden-to-suppor.html

We all know that the West intended for Russia to be emasculated and in a box... sounds like we are still smarting over their smack down of the Georgia aggression.

Hopefully the Obama admin doesn't plan more Georgia foolishness.

[ShamelessHussy]

10. Barack Obama offers to scrap missile shield in return for help from Russia with Iran

“I know Russia opposes the planned configuration for missile defence in Europe . . . I have made it clear that this system is directed at preventing a potential attack from Iran and has nothing to do with Russia,” he told an audience of students from the New Economic School in Moscow.

“I want us to work together on a missile defence architecture that makes us all safer. But if the threat from Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programmes is eliminated, the driving force for missile defence in Europe will be eliminated. That is in our mutual interest,” he said.

source...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6662885.ece

hmmm... sounds like our negotiations aren't going well with Russia with this kinda talk from Joe =(

[tocqueville]

13. there is no "missile defence in Europe"

except a virtual one. Besides it's hardly likely that Iran would nuke Poland or Sicily at maximal range with inaccurate super-scuds. All this is pure paranoia.

[GETPLANING]

11. That's disappointing

Biden obviously has no idea how Russia got where it is today.
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, a team of Chicago Boys from the Friedman School went to Russia to help Yeltsin set up the new economy. The result was a disaster of epic proportions that sent Russia over the edge. It was the most profound failure of Free Market Capitalism ever. They are still picking up the pieces. Russia is now embarking on the State Capitalism model embraced by China and Latin America. They will be OK in the long run.

[BlueMTexpat]

27. In addition to China and Latin America,

Russia is also looking at the western European models. But first, the pieces do have to be picked up and the Russian people must once again have some confidence in their economic future. The Friedman "boys" and their Russian adherents practically destroyed the country, then took the money and ran. There is at least one ski resort in the Alps that is devoted entirely to servicing Russian billionnaires. They make our Wall Street grifters look like pikers and choir boys.

[Umbral]

14. We should all be thankful that there isn't a chance in hell Biden will ever be President...

And there is little chance he cant do damage in the Senate either.

[BunkerHill24]

15. Well said

I always believed Biden was/is dangerous warmonger.

[No Elephants]

32. A VP never has a chance of becoming President?

[Hatalles]

17. I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary replaces Joe on the 2012 ticket.

nt

[AverageJoe5]

21. If I were Joe Biden ......

If I were Joe Biden, I would have a zipper sewed onto my lips so that I could keep my mouth shut to avoid the frequent foot-in-mouth occurrences.

[No Elephants]

30. I don't think Biden has that many foot in the mouth occurrences. That's more a

media and RW meme than reality.

I am not sure this is one, either. We'd have to know what Biden discussed with the rest of the administration before we could conclude whether Biden is on a frolic of his own here or whether he is being a good soldier.

[Strong Atheist]

35. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[No Elephants]

29. I doubt it will be Hillary., even if Joe decides to spend more time with Andrew Card's

family.

[Iowa]

40. Nah, there's no way Dennis Kucinnich will choose either Hillary or Joe.

;-)

[Enrique]

24. time for a beer in the White House

Obama needs to get Biden and Medvedev together for a beer or a vodka in the WH.

[Vidar]

31. What the hell? Does Biden have a case of "Cheney envy"?

[harmonicon]

37. oh, boo hoo - Biden told the truth without padding it

Yes, of course he must be stopped.

[TheLastMohican]

42. You know these "doom sayers" for Russia

were very numerous throughout history.
Which makes Biden even more foolish looking.

[JonQ]

39. Did someone save that reset button they were hauling around

earlier? Go ahead and get the right translation this time and push it.

[defendandprotect]

43. Only recently, Biden was saying that Israel had a right to attack Iran . . .!!!

[fujiyama]

44. Clinging to a past that is not sustainable?

Seriously, we have a banking sector which looted our government of trillions of dollars, which may end up being almost twenty times the GDP of Russia itself (assuming the bailouts cost 23 trillion in the end). Even if we take a conservative estimate and go by the administration's numbers (which I don't believe one bit), we've already spent 2 trillion. The Russian GDP was 1.29 trillion in '07. Other estimates have it at 8.5 trillion being spent already.

We shouldn't be lecturing anyone about a weak banking sector.

And Biden's nasty comments undercut Hillary and Obama's work over the last few weeks to mend fences. It is one thing to be critical of certain actions of the Russian government (and it's no secret that Putin is a thug and Russia likes to bully its neighbors), but his comments basically come off incredibly arrogant, hostile, and very insulting.