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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:12 PM
Original message
DOJ to Supremes: Uighurs "free to leave"
Source: Politico

The Obama Administration told the Supreme Court Friday that 17 Uighur men forcibly brought to Guantanamo Bay by the American military seven years ago are "free to leave" but have no right to come to the United States.

The Uighurs are Muslims from western China, though they allegedly attended training camps in Afghanistan affiliated with the East Turkestan Indpenendence Movement, a group which is considered a terrorist organization by the U.S. and denies China's sovereignty over the largely Muslim region of Xinjiang.

In a brief urging the high court not to hear an appeal from the 17 men, the Justice Department said the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit acted correctly earlier this year when it overturned a district court judge's order that the men be brought to the U.S. for release.

"Petitioners would like the federal courts to order that they be brought to the United States, because they are unwilling to return to their home country. But they have no entitlement to that form of relief," the brief submitted by Solicitor General Elena Kagan said. "As this Court has recognized repeatedly, the decision whether to allow an alied abroad to enter the United States, and if so, under what terms, rests exclusively in the political Branches."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/0509/DOJ_to_court_Uighurs_free_to_leave.html



This is a cruel decision. These men pose no threat to the US, and can't go back to China because they'll be put to death for advocating Uighur independence. But we're keeping them out of the US anyway -- after we already snuffed out 7 years of their lives.

Australia is considering allowing them to settle there. Hopefully, the Australian government will show it has a bit more compassion than the American government.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Obama Administration -- carrying on the finest traditions of the Bush Administration.
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ThirdWorldJohn Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. ~CHANGE~ No wait!
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Well, if it was motherfucking George Bush we wouldn't even know about these folks.
So we are grateful to have ~CHANGE~ .

:patriot:
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
37. I knew about them under Bush... you mean you didn't?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
52. And not only did lots of people know about them under *,
a lot of people also saw the news reports that * had tried to release them ... under the same terms. They've been in Gitmo for a few years under this status.

Albania took previous Uighurs, but said 'no' to this group. So did Australia, FWIT.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
54. Uh, I knew about them. Maybe you should have been paying attention?
NT!

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #8
60. Untrue.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
55. Obama's all about change - changing his mind and breaking his promises.
I will not vote for him again.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #55
61. I don't think he actually changes his mind that much, though we may be intended to think he does.
Edited on Sun May-31-09 08:42 AM by No Elephants
If you go back and look at what he said while campaigning, you'll find a lot of hedging. A lot of what people thought he was promising was not an unequivocal promise. A lot of what people thought he was saying he'd change, he didn't really say. He may have said something like, "No more of the Bush Administration torture and secret renditions." That, however, does not preclude torture by other methods and renditions acknowledged (if only by saying that he does not rule out rendtion).


His vote on FISA as a Senator is just like his position on FISA as President, etc. Sure, he said he'd change it once he became President, but did he ever really mean that?

As to whether I'd vote for him again, it doesn't matter. My state would go blue, even if Democrats ran Liz Cheney. Will I volunteer or donate to Obama again? I doubt it. I'm really sorry I donated sacrificially to help him in the primary. I did that because I saw him as more liberal than the Hillary.

This is how I see it now:

Bush 3 + Clinton 3 = Obama 1.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Carrying out the traditions that resulted in the colonization of
Austrialia and Georgia (USA).

And if they are returned to China they will be put to death.

Did you want them to come live with you?

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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. Please tell me you just forgot the sarcasm icon
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Not at all
Brush up on your history
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Kindly supply the proof that these are criminals and threat to US
Please. Or are you afraid they'll be so pissed off at us that they could become a threat? Or is anyone in prison there because they deserve it? Even without trial or jury? The only danger to USA I see is from people not strong enough to admit mistakes and take corrective action. We have institutionalized criminal behavior on Wall Street, DoD and CIA, but a couple dozen foreign nationals accused by CIA of something that isn't really clear? The CIA as judge and jury and torturer and executioner? This is called picking on and abusing people who can't defend themselves and it is despicable. We've had enough time to bring evidence forward. Times up.

Sure settle them in in my town - wouldn't mind at all except for the hysteria and paranoia from fear mongers and right-wing nut jobs yelling run for your lives we're all going to die. We are making it legitimate to hate these people without really understanding anything except a trial by public blowhards.

Let's see the proof from an open and public trial based on a system of justices that should be model for free world and then we can determine a reasonable outcome.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. What the hell are you going off on.
I simply stated an historic fact, Georgia USA and Australia were both colonized by the British for the purpose of establishing penal colonies to send the criminals to and/or as colonies to relocate people from the prisons.

I couldn't tell you what any of those "criminals" did - some were real criminals and some were political prisoners, arrested and detained for years because of their religious and/or political practices (often, the religious practices were considered political).

That is what my replies were about, that the practice is not George Bush's practice but a practice used for as long as man has been in existence. When you don't know what to do with people that could be dangerous or that do not "fit in" to society - when you don't want to hold them forever and you don't want to kill them - you send them off to some other place to live.

I suppose we could simply return the 17 to China and let China kill them. That seems to be what would make you happy.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. As to the USA: Yes, "ne'er do wells" came here, but we were not set up as a
Edited on Sun May-31-09 08:26 AM by No Elephants
penal colony in the same way that Australia was.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. From what I have read, it was
Oglethorpe proposed to plant the colony of unfortunates in the unoccupied country below the Savannah. His colleagues readily assented, and in his report to the House of Commons, he laid a scheme for the colony before that body. It promised the advantages of securing that domain to the British Crown, relieving the South Carolinians from danger, and doing good to a large class of worthy British subjects. The king and Parliament approved the project. An appropriation of money for the object was made, and on the 9th of June, 1732, the king granted a charter for founding a colony with the title of Georgia. That name was given in compliment to King George the Second, then the ruling monarch of England.

http://www.publicbookshelf.com/public_html/Our_Country_Vol_1/historyco_fj.html

http://www.cs.unm.edu/~sergiy/amhistory/ch05.html

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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. I thought, under Admiralty Law, if someone was impressed,
they were considered citizens. wouldn't that be appropriate here. Considering that otherwise they were illegally kidnapped.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. No one put them to work scrubbing the main deck. They were prisoners.
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Didn't impressed mean that they were forced to serve in the
captor's military. That's different than being detained. When you look at the various classes, a non-combatant detainee was pretty high on the list. The pecking order is something like

Protected Persons (they technically are interned rather than imprisoned - unarmed civilians & unarmed military (chaplains & medical)

POWs - Armed Military Personnel

Lawful Combatants - Armed non-military pesonnel observing the laws of warfare

Unlawful Combatants - Armed non-military who do not observe the laws of warfare

All of them are entitled to the protection of "Common Article 3" After that, it depends on their category.

Somehow, I doubt the Uighurs are free to walk to Havana. (and it's on the opposite end anyway)
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. Common Article three does NOT address POW except to be treated "Humanly"
POWs are defined in The Third Geneva Convention of 1949. The Taliban fits under Section 2 of Article 4 of the third convention of 1949, the Taliban have a command structure, they have flags and we can clearly determine they are combat soldiers when we engage them, They carry arms openly, hit and run tactics are standard guerrilla/Partisan war operation and thus the Taliban operate within the "Laws and Customs of war". Section 6, would cover most of the people held in Guantanamo for actions in Afghanistan, they can be viewed as taking up arms to resist the US Invasion.

Article 4 of the Third Geneva Convention of 1949:

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:<[br />(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labor units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favorable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:
(1) Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

(2) The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favorable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/375?OpenDocument

Note, unlawful combatants are NOT mentioned in the above, it is a term invented by the Bush Administration to go after people who armed themselves and fought the US under the Sixth Section of Article 4. Bush and his administration did NOT like such spontaneous revolt and have tried to make it illegal. The problem is a clear reading of Section 6 means what many of the people did when they fought the US was LEGAL MILITARY ACTIVITY and as such they should be treated as POWs NOT "unlawful combatants".
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
53. If Bush invented the term, where are we hiding the secret time
travel machine. Because he must have gone back to 1959 and planted the US Army JAG Treatise (Used for instructing Army lawyers at the JAG School), http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/treatise.pdf

"THE JURIDICAL BASIS OF THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN LAWFUL COMBATANT AND UNPRIVILEGED BELLIGERENT"

Here's an excerpt from page 8:

"The answer briefly stated is that the Convention is a humanitarian attempt to protect persons who traditionally have been harshly treated. Therefore, although the Geneva Convention purports to grant prisoner of war status only to a certain class, in practical effect it distinguishes between lawful and unlawful combatants. An unlawful combatant is one whose combatant activities are illegal according to international law. He may be punished with death."

Even though the Geneva Conventions might not address unlawful combatants, the Bush Administration did not invent the term - nor did they invent the concept.


We could argue all day about the Taliban operating within the laws and customs of war. Killing Prisoners puts them immediately outside that context for example. Their "fixed distinctive sign" must be recognizable at a distance and carrying arms openly means always, not just when it suits their purposes.

I have however, considered the Taliban the closest thing they had to an Armed Force and viewed them as lawful combatants. Non-Taliban actors, such as Al Qaeda are not. They are unprivileged belligerents (unlawful combatants - a term not invented in 2001) and do not qualify as POWs.

If they WERE POWs, President Obama would be ensuring they received all the POW rights of the Convention. If you say they are, and then recognize that the ALL provisions applicable to POWs are not being observed, then you are in effect saying President Obama is continuing a war crime - and I reject that inference without qualification.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. A thesis starts with the following "not to be cited as legal authority"
It then goes into various Guerrilla wars since the 1700s, to show that at times, people who took up arms on a part time basis to oppose an invading force, were considered Soldiers or outlaws depending on how the opposing army wanted to view them (This included the Militia, who in the 1700s were NOT considered Soldiers and therefor "Illegal Combatants").

Most times these were viewed as unlawful combatants do to the fact such guerrillas did NOT attack the invading troops directly, but went after lines of communications and supply. Under that rationale air attacks, which tend to go after communications and supply would also be unlawful combat activities. The author admit it is an unworkable rule. In fact in US history (The Revolution and the Civil War) unlawful combatants were NOT partisans or Guerrillas that went after troops, supplies, or lines of Communications but used the war as an excuse to loot.

A second line of reasoning was that by executing civilians who took up arms against an invading force kept other civilians from taking up arms and thus secured the invading army's supply line (i.e. shoot anyone who interfered with the supply lines). Please note the theses does NOT say so, but this level of execution would extend to any worker who went on strike or otherwise did not do his or her job of maintaining the roads or other parts of the supply line needed by the invading force.

A third line of reasoning is best started in the article:

"Secondly, the advent of mass irregular armies, perhaps numbering into the millions of men and women, pose logistic problems which may render it impossible to grant all the privileges of a prisoner of war to these huge numbers.222" Page 83-84 of the paper.

The 222 is for Footnote 222:
Chinese Communist militia for example, who in some areas constitute the entire adult population of an area. See Bowles, A Long Look at China, April 4, 1959 Saturday Evening Post, 23, 108 (1959). For a detailed account of the tactics likely to be used see Snow, The Battle for Asia, 342 (1941). For an assessment of the strategy likely to be used in China by the Chinese Communist guerrillas against the Japanese, in the nature of a prediction which was fulfilled see Dupuy, The Nature of Guerilla Warfare, 1939 Pacific Affairs, 138, 142, 146 (1939).

In simple terms of the whole population opposes the invasion and do ANYTHING to show opposition, including peaceful protests, this paper says they can be shot for being "unlawful combatants" for they are interfering with US military operation in the area.

Earlier, on page 34, the Paper cites Count von Motlet's the elder:

"The German approach is also seen in Count von Moltkefs
remark in 1880 that:
"Never will an Article learnt by rote persuade soldiers to see a regular enemy . . . in the unorganized population which takes up arms spontaneously, (so of its own motion) and puts them in danger of their life at every moment of day and night .I'


This view was shown doing the Franco-Prussian war of 1871:

In that war after the conventional French army was defeated or immobilized the French government called out a militia, the Garde Mobile. Groups of individual French citizens were also called up to resist the invaders. Many of the latter were members of shooting clubs -the Francs Tireur -(Free Shooters).73 The Francs Tireur were of several types; some wore uniforms, while others wore only blue or grey blouses with red arm
bands or a red shoulder strap. The Prussians treated all these forces, without distinction, as unlawful belligerents,76
Page 32

Notice these French Units, meet all the requirements of the Geneva Convention and the Prussians shot them anyway (Through please note one of the reasons for the 1907 treaty was to prevent such executions in the future, these protections were expanded in the 1949 treaties).

One thing the paper does state is the following:
The original criteria were no more than an attempt to mitigate the horrors of war by the use of a two-pronged attack. The first prong was that the irregular would begiven a protected status upon capture if he met, the four conditions. The other prong was that it would also be agreed by all nations that they would not use irregulars which did not meet the conditions, and would, on the contrary, use every effort to suppress them. Page 85

Please note the restriction that guerrillas/partisans must met ALL four rules to be legal was REJECTED by the convention. It has NEVER been the rule. Now it was adopted by the Germans during WWII, but more to kill off Communists guerrillas then anything else.

One of the thing I notice about this paper was no one cited the fact that Stalin had called WWII to be a Partisan war, and that the Germans ended up fighting partisans throughout Eastern Europe, most of which were Communists organized (Through a good many were not). One of the purpose of the Geneva Convention (From the Russian's point of view) was to further protect such partisans. Even this paper says that is the Communist view as to the Convention (i.e. Guerrilla are soldiers, even if they do NOT fight on a full time basis and change in and out of uniform several times a day).

Now the paper dies site "Class Warfare":
Finally, any estimate of the use of irregulars in the future must consider two key tenets of Communism; the inevitability of class warfare, and the command to turn ordinary wars into class wars. Irregular combatants are the means by which a class war is begun and carried out. A Russian publicist has advanced a theory of the legality of irregular warfare based upon a just-unjust war dichotomy, which is partly based upon Marxian theory. The theory seems peculiarly suited to application in class warfare.

The paper then goes on, in an attempt show how such class based warfare violates the "Customs of War" but then points out the following:

The Convention does not enact positive law. The Convention does not state that those who do not meet the criteria are illegal combatants. If those who do not pass the test of Article 4 are held to
be illegal combatants it is only because of the customary law of nations. Such persons are given certain safeguards by a different convention.
Page 7

The other safeguard relate how Armies are to handle civilians, in affect those groups that had been called Illegal Combatants were regulated into two groups, either Soldiers or Civilians. If Civilians, and what they did was criminal, then they could be charged with the underlaying crime. Notice the key here, even this paper accepts that the Conventions of 1949 take the view that any Civilians who take up arms, even temporally are Soldiers, but if they do NOT take up arms, they can be tried as CIVILIANS, if what they did was a Crime under laws of that Country. This was the compromised worked out between the US and the USSR as to their opposing views as to Partisans and Guerrillas. The Russians wanted them covered by the Convention and the US wanted them NOT covered if under the cover of being a Partisan or Guerrilla they committed some other crime. The US did not want to get into what Guerrillas generally attack, which are supply lines, for that was also the targets of most Air attack plans (And if you define attacks on supplies as illegal, so would have been almost every air attack, except in direct support of ground forces, done by the US during and since WWII).

This paper is clearly an attempt to work around the Conventions of 1949 and an attempt to revive the concept of illegal military activities done AFTER any conventional army had been defeated but do to continued opposition to that victorious army by the people of the country it was occupying. While it does NOT call for such guerrillas to be shot, it clearly is an attempt to revive the view that such guerrillas are illegal even if it is clear that the only thing they attacked was military objectives.

I notice you had to bring up a paper written in 1959, that keeps citing cases and incidents from before 1949 to show that illegal combatants could still occur, and then only as part of a Communist plot to take over a country.

In total, this paper was an attempt to work around the clear intentions of the 1949 Conventions. The paper is clearly an attempt to work around the 1949 conventions and even its authors refused to call the paper legally binding on anyone. The paper is an attempt to justify treating guerrillas NOT as soldiers but as criminals, even if the only crime is shooting at the opposing army or otherwise interfering with that army's supplies or communications lines. Remember in 1959 the US was looking at extensive Communist Guerrilla movements, not only in Cuba and Vietnam but the rest of the world. The US military was looking at ways around the 1949 Conventions so they could treat guerrillas as criminals NOT Soldiers. During the Bush Administration this division was ignored and "Illegal Combatants" came back. And again, like that term had been used prior to 1949 it was used as a term to justify shooting anyone, no matter who they were, for interfering with military operations in ways that are difficult for an occupying army to defend against (Best shown by Wellington, situation in Spain and later in France, as long as he was in Spain he supported the Spanish guerrilla and opposed the French efforts at suppressing them, but then adopted the French position when he invaded France and the French started to use Guerrilla tactics against his own army).

A paper directed at an enemy much like the Taliban and the opposition in Iraq, but not against Al Queda. Dated by its view as to Class Warfare, but still showing the problems with how to classify Guerrillas. The paper wants to call all Guerrillas illegal combatants, but it is clear that is NOT the case so goes short of that conclusion. It is a paper to be used as a guide as to how to treat Guerrillas when in combat against them, and to justify treating them as criminals if you can get around the Convention. That is the purpose of this paper to work around the Convention, something Bush rejected for he wanted to put a lot of people in jail as illegal combatants that clearly were legal under the Convention. Bush dare NOT call them Civilians then the Conventions rules as to treatment of Civilians come into play. Thus he re-invented a term that should have been killed by the Geneva Convention of 1949. People are either Civilians or Soldiers AND can switch between those two status on a daily basis. The convention have rules for BOTH, but BOTH rules state rights to BOTH (i.e. POWs housing must be the same as the one's for one's own troops subject only to the needs to confine the POWs, Civilians are to be left alone UNLESS the Civilian Courts no longer operate then the Military court can operate over them, but only to the extent needed to maintain order, but Order does NOT include suppression of any and all opposition to whatever the occupying army is doing to the occupied country). Bush wanted to operate in an area of no rules, so he invented an area of no rules and re-invented an old term "Illegal Combatants".
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24601 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. I never cited it as legal authority - I said that it was used for
Edited on Sun May-31-09 01:40 AM by 24601
training JAG officers.

Whether the Treatise is a "Legal Authority" or not is a Red Herring. Suppose the President issues an Executive Order and I send out the information to my Division in an e-mail. (This has happened)

My e-mail is 100% accurate information, but it should not be cited as the legal authority for actions taken. Instead, it is just the secondary reference that will point people to the EO which will be cited.

More importantly, The reason I cited up this Treatise had nothing to do with it being a legal authority or not. What it does do is debunk the fiction that Bush & Co invented the term Illegal Combatants and its associated concepts. Legal authority or not, it's been around long before a Bush Presidency. Clearly they did not since it was "invented" at least as early as 1959 and probably decades earlier.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. But how the term is used in that paper is NOT how Bush used the term
Bush's use of the term "Illegal combatants" clearly included people included in the definition of Soldier in the Convention. i.e. people who took up arms against an invading army without any uniforms or authorization by their government. The paper clearly accepted that definition and tried to minimize its affect.

Bush re-invented a term that the 1949 Convention, for all practical purposes, had made invalid (i.e. you are either a Soldier or a Civilian under the 1949 Convention, not something else). Thus my comment that Bush re-invented the term, yes the term "Illegal Combatants" had been used before at various times since the Napoleonic wars, but except for this paper NOT since the signing and ratification of the 1949 Convention.

I can find a lot of terms that fell out of favor and then came back with different meaning. The paper even mentioned one, that of Partisan. It was a term used during the 1700s (including in the American Revolution) to indicate militia based resistance groups. The term Partisans fell out of favor shortly thereafter (Replaced by the Term Guerrilla from the Spanish use of that term during the Napoleonic wars). The term Partisan came back during WWII (if not earlier) to indicate a Communist based Resistance group that appears spontaneously to fight a foe. The difference were major, the 1700 use of the term included an authorization to form such a military unit, while the WWII use included no such requirement (And the author of the paper clearly points out that the 1700s partisans were legal soldiers while the WWII partisans were viewed by the Germans as "illegal combatants").

My point is simple, just because the term was used in the past does NOT mean it has the same meaning as it was used in the past. In the paper the term "Illegal Combatants" basically was anyone who took up arms in violation of the Conventions, but as Bush used that term it meant anyone who took up arms in the form of Guerrilla activities. That is a fundamental difference. Just because a term was used in the past does NOT mean it is the same term being used today. Languages change over time, especially if a term falls out of use as the term "Illegal Combatant" seems to have done during and after WWII (Do to the affect of German anti-Resistance operations and the adoption of the 1949 Convention).

When Bush re-invented the term "Illegal Combatant", Bush did not cite any previous use of the term, Bush just called anyone who opposed the US occupation as "illegal Combatants" so Bush did NOT have to treat such people as Civilians or Soldiers (The two classes of people under the Convention). That was the new part, that Bush used a term that has been used in the past is not surprising, given the limitation of any language (And the emphasis on things being "Legal" over the last 4-500 years, and this if it is NOT "legal" it is "illegal").

My comment is simple, as the term "Illegal Combatant" is used in that paper is NOT what the term "Illegal Combatant" came to mean under Bush. Remember Bush did NOT want to treat these people as Civilians or Soldiers and to do that Bush had to work around the 1949 Convention. Bush worked around the Convention by re-inventing (I doubt Bush even knew of the paper you cite) a term not used in decades and gave that term a whole new meaning (and even the paper you cite points out that the term "Illegal Combatants" had changed over the years, in the 1700s it meant anyone, including people in the militia, who were NOT member of the Military establishment, then it became anyone not "Authorized" to fight by his country's government, then someone who used the opportunity of the war to comment theft and other crimes, then anyone who opposed a regular army by means of guerrilla activities, and then the term died out as it became clear the term no longer had any meaning, then Bush re-invented the term with a completely new definition). Thus the term is new, given its present definition. Yes, people have used those words in the past, but NOT as Bush used that term, and it is the Bush definition of the term "Illegal Combatant" that is at issue NOT the words "Illegal" or "Combatant".

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. The US isn't "abandoning" them. They're actively assisting in their resettlement
We do have a relationship with China, like it or not. That's probably behind the decision and the argument of the government--we don't need a crew of people dedicated to overthrowing an ally living in Virginia--it's just not good foreign policy.

Also, it's not like the US isn't actively assisting them to find a home--they just don't want them HERE. It's the actions of US officials that are working the Aussie option. From your cite:

The brief says the U.S. Government is actively pursuing diplomatic options to resettle the Uighurs, who officials have said cannot be sent back to China because of that country's record of mistreatment of Uighur dissidents and militants. In a related development, Australian officials said Friday that they were considered a request to resettle the Uighurs. Australia rejected two prior requests from the Bush Administration.

If that fails, maybe New Zealand will hop to and cut them a break.



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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thank you.
Sometimes the hate of Obama here really gets to me.

:hug:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Anytime.
It would help if folks would read the whole doggone article they post before they accuse the government of doing things that are plainly untrue, and are demonstrated to be untrue in the very article they post to "make their case."

It is a bit absurd, the eagerness to pile on. It's pretty silly too, when the cite disproves the assertion made.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. I'm as big an Obama fanboy as anyone here, so
hate of Obama isn't what sparked my criticism.

It's this stupid, fucked up decision, which I blamed on the "American government" -- not Obama (though of course he's mixed up in it).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. It's not fucked up. These guys are seeking to overthrow the government of a major trading partner.
Jim Webb doesn't want them settling in Virginia, either. They'd be problematic to our relationship with that partner.

The US government is actively working to resettle them--they aren't being abandoned. If they don't like the digs the US government finds for them, they are "free" to make their own deals. The only thing that's plain is that they're not going to the USA.

Maybe Fidel will take them--if they like that idea, they can ask him, and it's a short commute to their new home. I kinda doubt they'll go for that, though.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. So were Chai Ling and Wang Dan.
Jim Webb doesn't want them settling in Virginia because he'll lose the redneck votes he needs to retain his seat if he allows in the "terrists". It's a pure political calculation on his part.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Well, he's probably lost those redneck votes already. Have you seen his latest wife?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
65. So that's the criterion, now? "Major trading partner."
Saddam's Iraq qualified!
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-29-09 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I know of a vacant ranch down at Crawford, Texas
where they could probably be quite comfortable
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. Eminent domain it and put it to good use.
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Ohio Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. Thank you for some sanity - nt
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. Are you saying we don't have a tradition of offering refuge to Chinese dissidents?
It's not like we were going to allow these Uighurs to set up a militant training camp in Virginia. What we could have done is offered them their first opportunity to live a somewhat normal, free life.

If they get to settle in Australia, that's great. But they were seeking to settle in the US, and it seems like the least we could do after the shitty way we've treated them.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. There's a big difference between someone standing in front of a tank
or prancing around a square with a papier mache Lady Liberty and yelling "Democracy!!" and someone travelling to Afghanistan to learn how to create a cell of terrorists, engage in secret communication strategies, and put together a pipe bomb to hide it in a high traffic area to kill citizens, as well as other methods to strike fear in a population.

A "dissident" waving a sign or chanting a slogan is not a "terrorist." The comparison is inappropriate. The quality and level of objection" is completely different. One deals in ideas, the other in violence.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. I agree. But that wasn't your point.
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:20 AM by Frank Booth
You're worried we'll piss off the Chinese government by allowing these Uighurs to stay in the US. And I'm saying we've previously willingly allowed enemies of the Chinese state to settle in the US.

Their resettling in the US poses no likelihood of harm. China will get mad for a while, and then forget about it.

And calling these guys "terrorists" goes a little far. They weren't caught at Al Qaeda training camps. Instead, they allegedly "attended training camps in Afghanistan affiliated with the East Turkestan Independence Movement," which the US only listed as a terrorist organization a few years back for the purposes of appeasing China. It'd be like if China started calling the Alaskan Independence Party a terrorist organization.

Nobody claims these people pose a threat to the US (and they really don't pose a threat to China either, for that matter).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. No, there are several "points" at play here. And they aren't mine--they're the USGs.
They won't be settled in the US because we don't want the hassle of dealing with them, and having them go on tv and gripe about their time in Gitmo OR whine about how horrible China is to their people. We also don't want to have to send the SS down to find them everytime a Chinese diplomat comes to DC, which is quite frequently these days. They'd want to settle in VA, because that's where their homies are--that's just not working for this administration. Too close to make trouble. And I'm not "worried" about China's reaction--I'm pretty sure China's reaction has been considered by the USG in coming to the decision to find a place for them that's far, far away from the USA.

If they genuinely didn't pose a threat to China, then why doesn't China take them back? Why can't the USG come to accord with China and extract a promise that they won't be harmed? They face torture or death if they go home--yet you're saying they weren't engaging in terror training? And what were they learning at that supposedly benign training camp? In AFGHANISTAN? How to knit sweaters to see themselves through the long winter? And this is punishable by death in China?


Come on. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. These guys were planning on doing bad, bad things...in China. They got caught in the wrong mousetrap, but they weren't helpless innocents, either. Had they not been in a "training camp" in Afghanistan, learning how to knit those sweaters or whatever, surrounded by evidence of terror training, they wouldn't be in this situation.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. You're saying that they must be terrorists because they face torture or death if they get sent back?
Do you consider Falun Gong adherents terrorists as well? Because they've been tortured and killed too.

You know, I agree with you that sometimes the Chinese government gets an undeserved bad rap. But I don't think they're deserving of the benefit of the doubt here. The Chinese government has been suppressing the rights of Uighurs for decades. The number of actual terrorist incidents involving Uighurs is tiny, but thousands have been locked up based on suspicion alone. Their culture has been smothered. They're caught in an impossible situation, since most speak only rudimentary mandarin, and the Chinese government has intentionally flooded Xinjiang (which used to be somewhat autonomous) with Han. China's a pretty nice place for middle-class Chinese. But it's a brutal, horribly oppressive police state for Uighurs, even those far removed from any training camps.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. I happened to catch a news program out of Australia this morning
and their guest was a lady, a leader of the Uighur community there. They were doing a small demonstration urging people to support human rights for those still in China. This must be what is behind the idea to send released Uighur detainees to Australia -- there is already a community there for them to live in.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. No, I'm saying they must be terrorist wanna-bees because they were scooped up,
many, many miles from home (home being a country that tightly restricts the travel of its citizens, suggesting that they slipped across a border or three) in a terrorist training camp.

They weren't peaceful happy hippies learning how to knit at that site. They were in that "tiny" bunch of those who prosecute terrorism of which you speak.

I am not commenting on the "validity" of the Chinese government's position. Or even the "rightness" or "fairness" of their tack against this population.

Look, the government of the USA shit all over the native indigenous population here. That's fact. If a tiny percentage of the native peoples decided to go to a terrorist training camp to wreak havoc on the country I wouldn't be giving them the "Awwwwww, poor baby" business either. You get caught doing that stuff, you 'enjoy' the consequences.

The US is behaving responsibly in not shipping them home to be tortured and killed, but instead seeking a third country solution for them. Yet, even at that, the US catches Evil Empire crap...for behaving responsibly. Damned if you do, and all that.

Had they been caught by the Chinese--and not the US--at any stage of their efforts, they wouldn't be contemplating a relocation to Australia. They'd be mouldering in the grave.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. And their families? Mothers? Fathers? Wives? Children?
Since they are FREE, have they been in contact with their families?

Oh, and too fucking bad about what WE want. After seven years of being held without trial, I'm interested in what THEY want.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. Well, you're not making that decision, now, are you?
I'd ask State what they plan to do with regard to families, if you're really interested. I would imagine reuniting them would be a nice thing to do.

Germany doesn't want them, either, because of their terrorist associations: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2009-05/12/content_7765772.htm

The reason that they can't go home is because they were picked up in a sweep of a terrorist training camp, taking lessons on how to overthrow their home government by violent means. Not because they were sitting innocently on the side of the road playing cards, or something.

Would you rather we just ignored that little problem and sent them on their merry way home anyway? You can't unring the bell that Bush rung, but at least this government isn't sending them home to be tortured or killed.

Frankly, I don't particualarly want people intent on doing harm to China plotting and planning it from here, either. If we can persuade the Australians to take them, that would be grand, even if we have to pay them to do it.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. They were willing to die to free their country.
And the punishment is to never see it again. It depends so much on how you look at it, doesn't it?

What if they were Tibetan?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. That's not the problem of the US, though, is it, that they decided to
travel to Afghanistan to get training to overthrow their government.

The US's problem is that they scooped them up and misidentified them, and now they have to be resettled in a place where they won't get killed, but they won't be able to cause too much trouble, either.

If they were Tibetan, they wouldn't have been hanging out at a terrorist training camp. If they were Tibetan, they could resettle in India and hang out with the DL without too much problem.

Any Tibetan who left Tibet would probably have done so as a consequence of being "resettled" by the Chinese government, who are pouring non-Tibetans into Tibet in droves in an effort to de-nationalize the joint.
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
62. There is a community in Virginia that will take them.
Why the fuck can't they go there? Because people are so fucking stupid they think these people are actually dangerous. They are stateless people because China (our good buddy) will KILL them if they go back. China, that totalitarian piece of shit country that kills dissenters.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Because the USG and Senator Jim Webb have said "Fuck, no."
That's why.

These guys aren't saints. They "actually" do have potential to be "actually dangerous." What, you have the syllabus from their Afghan training camp? You "know" they were only doing needlepoint and knitting sweaters? Come off it. They were picked up in Afghanistan because they were training to do harm to a government they oppose--a government that we have a vibrant trade relationship with. Putting a couple of disgruntled and failed terrorists within easy driving distance of the Chinese Embassy is...well...a very, very stupid idea.

You are also completely missing the point that the US is actively seeking to place these people. That important fact was not mentioned in the OP, because the OP wanted to suggest that we were dumping these people out on the side of the international road with no resources. Read the whole article. The USG is working to find them homes and is twisting Australia's arm to take them, because they have an ethnic community there where they'll feel comfortable--and they'll also be far enough away not to plant a pipe bomb at an Embassy or a trade meeting without being noticed. The State Department is trying to craft a win-win here, but you're desperately looking for the negative side of the story.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. if they were terrorists in China, shouldn't they be extradited to China?
I don't get it. As to the possibility that they might be put to death for being terrorists in China, well waah, waah. Tough luck, terrorists.
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Downwinder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. There was a thread yesterday that China is tearing down the
Uighur section of Kashkar.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. They weren't terrorists in China. They tried to get training
to run actions in China against the Chinese government that is crushing their people.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. They were in a training camp in Afghanistan. They argue that they were there
to learn how to become "freedom fighters" against China. They were learning to be terrorists, they hadn't done anything yet.

That said, they probably would end up dead if they went back home. That is why (as the article says in a later paragraph) the US government is working to find them a new home.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-31-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-02-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
67. You'd believe the CHINESE GOVERNMENT about who was a terrorist?
:wtf:
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ddiver Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. What the hell does "free to leave" mean?
"Petitioners would like the federal courts to order that they be brought to the United States, because they are unwilling to return to their home country. But they have no entitlement to that form of relief," the brief submitted by Solicitor General Elena Kagan said. "As this Court has recognized repeatedly, the decision whether to allow an allie abroad to enter the United States, and if so, under what terms, rests exclusively in the political Branches."

To persuade the justices to reject the case, the Obama Administration cited appropriations legislation passed in both the House and Senate this month seeking to restrict the administration's ability to release or transfer prisoners from Guantanamo to the U.S. The Justice Department's attempt to use the legislation to block legal relief for the Uighurs is notable because White House officials were unhappy with the measures, which could effectively tie President Barack Obama's hands if he were to sign them into law. The House and Senate bills presently await a conference committee expected to convene next week.


The Senate denied the $80 mill to move the 17 to US soil in the appropriations legislation and Obama used this to make his point today.

The appropriations bill is not even in final draft, let alone signed.

But most importantly, free to leave? Can they go to Cuba? Haiti?

I have always laughed at the chess playing word play, but it is getting a little political meat on the bone.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. If Cuba will have them, they can stroll through the gate. Same with Haiti.
If you read the full article, though, you will see that the US is actively working to resettle them--they aren't being "abandoned."

However, if they find a better deal, one more to their liking, they're free to make it.
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ddiver Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Cool. I read the whole article and got the part about resettlement
Edited on Sat May-30-09 02:49 AM by ddiver
The tricky part is "free to leave
".

Can someone come up and make a criminal claim on them?

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Maybe the Chinese. I don't think they'll bother, though, so long as they are stashed out-of-the-way
and in no position to cause trouble.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
39. And then either or both countries would be accused
of harbouring terrorists. :sarcasm:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Well, that wouldn't be news for Cuba, at any rate.
Those guys would probably last five minutes in Haiti.
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imdjh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
15. Send them to Mexico.
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ddiver Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. Cabo Yabo
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
36. as long as we're actively finding them a safe haven
and rebuild their lives, I can live with them not being allowed to come here.

I seriously doubt, after having been captured and imprisoned in Guantanamo, with all it's amenities, that they have real positive feelings about the U.S. If it were me, I just might be harboring some resentment. I suspect I'd be better off someplace else.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. Is this a record
36 posts with no mention of Diana Ross ? :shrug:
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. I was thinking
Edited on Sat May-30-09 10:56 AM by ohio2007
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
40. Hope they and others sue in civil court and are awarded millions. n/t
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scentopine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-30-09 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
46. We love totalitarian regimes as long as they buy t-notes or sell us oil.
I'd like to see some real evidence that these people are a threat to anyone. We have a justice system. And a war system. We've spent trillions over last decades conducting wars against Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan with more than 500,000 dead as direct cause of these conflicts. But treating a couple hundred prisoners with fairness and dignity? We just can't figure it out. We have a justice system and a constitution that serves as a model for a functional society. It isn't perfect but it works best when it isn't corrupted by corporate and political crooks.

We did wrong. Very, very wrong. Time to make it right. If we don't have solid proof, if we are working on a "hunch" then we don't have any reason to keep these people in prison. USA has become a despicable place of lies, greed and selfishness. God help us if we have to move our lazy asses to do some good. And if these people present no threat they should be allowed to settle here. If there is no evidence that these people committed crimes, then its our fault and we should make things even and settle their family here as well.

Makes me want to puke to hear neo-fascists tallking about protecting America by destroying justice. Truly disgusting. You shouldn't have to be an ultra-rich wall street crook to get help.






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