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Purveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:47 AM
Original message
US Navy Submarine And Ship Crash Near Dubai
Source: SKY NEWS

1:38pm UK, Friday March 20, 2009

A US Navy submarine and an American amphibious ship have collided in the Strait of Hormuz, near Dubai.

The crash left 15 sailors slightly wounded on the USS Hartford submarine.

No personnel aboard the other vessel, the USS New Orleans, were hurt.

The damage to both ships was still being evaluated. The propulsion plant of the submarine was unaffected by this collision.

New Orleans suffered a ruptured fuel tank, which resulted in an oil spill of approximately 25,000 gallons of diesel fuel marine.

Read more: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/US-Navy-Submarine-And-Ship-Crash-In-Strait-Of-Hormuz-USS-Hartford-And-USS-New-Orleans-Damaged/Article/200903315245884?lpos=World_News_First_World_News_Article_Teaser_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15245884_US_Navy_Su
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. Jesus, how dumb. Look out the damn periscope
every once in a while.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. they rarely use them anymore.
the computerized sonar is so good that they should know precisely the size, shape, location and speed of everything there.
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Seems like it should be pretty easy to not hit another vessel, then.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. My understanding of this is...
they purposefully trying to get dangerously close to each other as training maneuvers.

Back during the cold war U.S. and Russian subs would occasionally run into each other playing cat and mouse. And occasionally chicken.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. No guarantee the sub was "completely" submerged
Edited on Fri Mar-20-09 04:46 PM by ohio2007
transiting the straits it may have been running on or close to the surface imo since the collision happened at night
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2009/03/20/ap6193473.html
But first reports are thin on details.
Sub run on the surface transiting the Gibraltar straits, very congested narrow and the Hormuz is loaded with fat ass oil tankers



Guess Iran will file a protest for damaging their coastline with a fuel spill ...done "on purpose" ;)

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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
3. A couple of Commanding Officers' careers just came to a screeching halt.
When I was in the Navy, I was stationed on the USS Eisenhower -- a Nimitz class carrier.

Coming back from a Med Cruise in 1988, we hit a ship that was anchored in the harbor at Norfolk. Our Commanding Officer was gone the next day.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Yep, the unforgivable and career ending mistake
Their careers are toast.
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. especially in the Sub Service
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. That's a fact
No more ships, no more promotions for either CO.
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Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. Nope, only one.
The captain of the USS New Orleans should be relatively safe due to the fact the sub was submerged and his ship doesn't have sonar.
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yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. Can anyone come up with a good reason why something like
this should happen? With all the technology available, known and unknown to us, for 2 ships to collide is inexcusable.

Two crews asleep at the helm.
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Symarip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I work in sonar. I was also a Sonar Tech in the Navy for 9 years.
It's alot easier to crash a ship than it looks. Littoral waters are notorious for horrible soundings and navigation. Amphibious vessels don't really have sonar capabilities at all while Submarines depend on them nearly solely. And you have two ships who are depending on each other via communication and whatever else.

Basically, think of it like a car crash on a larger level. Should they happen? No. Do they happen? Yes.
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. STG=Second to God
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Symarip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. STG1
Second to God, First in line.
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Haha
I was a YN, I miss you secretive weirdos.
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Symarip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. It's even worse in the civilian sector
Everyone thinks they're some kind of underwater cowboy. Fucking bubbleheads.
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. VFA-2 Bounty Hunters
I was squadron side thank god.I knew I was a paper pusher of the first water, and acted accordingly. Worst 5 months of my life had to have been following the war, when we made the jump from the tomcats to the super hornets after busting our asses to get the JDAMS on the damn 14's.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. You can hardly blame the ship's crew for not looking UNDER the boat. Silly. n/t
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. lol, well...its a good way to hide a sub trying to slip into the gulf undetected
ya never know
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hardly surprising
Even pedallos can be a bit unpredictable at times and they're far more sophistictaed. :sarcasm:
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. Have we checked to make sure the #2 at Al Qaeda wasn't aboard?
Sure looks like if shit breaks out in the area, we're ready!

Do I really need a sarcasm tag?....
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
9. Someone screwed up
This can happen. I was on the Connie, an aircraft carrier, a sub almost hit us. The strait they are in is the main access point to the gulf. It is very tight getting in and out, and they stage an amazing show of force when we go through. I mean Apocalypse Now style shows of force, minus the village. It can happen, but someone is gonna pay and pay hard. Hopefully it hits an O-5 or above, no way a Chief would ever let something like this happen.
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. As the son of a retired Chief...
and ex-Navy, also -- you are absolutely right!

As I mentioned in my previous post, someone's career just came to a screeching halt! (I guarantee it isn't a Chief!!).
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Yes sir
Advancement to Chief is the perfect example of a meritocracy. Chiefs hands down are some of the most competent, calm, and wise human beings this species has ever produced.Officers tend, and I stress tend, to be part of the Annapolis Boys club, and idiocy that would get an enlisted man jailed gets overlooked.
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wmbrew0206 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Apparently Physical Fitness isn't part of the Navy Chief meritocray
I've seen way too many Navy Chief's that looked like they were conducting an operation to expand their waistline and clearly succeeding!
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driver8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Ha Ha -- you got that, right!
Too much time in the Chief's mess!
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rolltideroll Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I knew the Corps would chime in soon enough
Always good to see a devil dog. Such ingratitude after all the rides we have given you guys,
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Depends on what his watch station was on the sub at the
time of the collision.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
33. The only thing left is to find out who gets canned.
And it will likely be both captains Someone always gets fired for collisions.
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. Comment from the captain...

"Yes, we did indeed order a bucket of chicken. And you can take my chicken from my cold, dead hands!"
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. Nuclear Submarine Damaged in Collision Near Iran
Source: Fox News

A nuclear submarine was damaged in a collision with another U.S. Navy vessel off the coast of Iran early Friday, leaving 15 U.S. sailors injured and 25,000 gallons of fuel spilling into the Strait of Hormuz.

The USS Hartford, a nuclear-powered fast-attack submarine, was fully submerged Friday when it collided with the transport ship the USS New Orleans, according to a Navy official in the 5th Fleet. Seas were calm but visibility was low as the incident occurred around 1:00 a.m. local time.

No official reason has been given for the accident but a Defense Department official told FOX News that "it appears the two vessels were not in communication before they collided."

<snip>

There was no damage to the nuclear reactor powering the Hartford, said Lt. Nate Christensen, spokesman for the 5th Fleet, but the collision ruptured one of the many fuel tanks of the USS New Orleans. Officials say there are no real plans yet for cleaning up the 25,000 gallons of diesel fuel that have spilled into the Persian Gulf.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,509919,00.html
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Not its first accident
"On 25 October, 2003, the Hartford (SSN-768), a United States Navy nuclear powered Los Angeles-class submarine ran aground while performing routine maneuvers in the harbour of La Maddalena, Sardinia. Approximately 9 million dollars worth of damage were done to the submarine, and it was out of service for seven months. An investigation into the accident revealed that basic navigation errors combined with equipment failures were to blame for the submarine running into the rocky shallows."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hartford_grounding
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. wow....i'm speechless
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
34. What is a Nuclear Sub doing in the Persian Gulf???
Edited on Fri Mar-20-09 06:45 PM by happyslug
The Persian Gulf is at its deepest 90 meters (180 feet) deep and averages less then 50 meters (150 feet). Can Subs operate at such depths, yes, but Nuclear Attack Submarines (Like the Hartford) were design for the depths of the Mid-Atlantic an Pacific Oceans not the Shadow depths of the Persian Gulf. Attack Submarines are to large for such a narrow shadow waterway, thus during the Cold War, the Russians kept making conventional Subs for use in the Baltic and Murmansk region, do to the fact they could be made smaller, with at best a limited ability to operate in the deep oceans (Such deep ocean missions were apparently reserved for Soviet Nuclear Subs NOT the conventional subs). The sub can easily be detected do to its size (Through the ocean floor can provide it some cover from Sonar, but smaller conventional subs are easier to put behind whatever hills exist under water AND being able to shut their engines completely down quieter than a Nuclear submarine).

Thus my point why would you put a NUCLEAR sub in the Persian Gulf? While it can do surveillance, you can do such surveillance via aircraft located on Carriers in the Arabian Sea. Whatever the sub can knock out that is on the sea, can be knocked out by conventional ships (And given Radar on a Sub is limited do to it being below sea level, surface ships can knock out any threat on the high seas faster).

Now the Sub may be positioning for launching Cruises missiles at the Iran Nuclear plants, but Conventional ships also do that. I suspect the Submarine Surface wants to show it is relevant when it comes to a War with Iran, even through the Gator Navy would be more effective (i.e. land and support troops going ashore). One of the old comment on the US Navy was that from WWII to the end of the Cold War, the Navy had an internal fight, between the Carriers supported and the Submarine supporters. Both can operate in deep oceans and fight the old Soviet Union, but neither was practically good as supporting troops and Marines who landed on foreign soils. The Amphibious Navy (The Gator Navy) was always the poor step child of these two services, maintained for the Marines wanted it and even used to land Marines at various trouble spots (As was the Military Air Lift Command of the US Air Force, which helped move Troops and Marines to Combat areas, even while being the Step Child of the Air Force's big two, the Bombers and the Fighters).

In the present war with Iraq, the Subs have been useless (and this after the Subs launched the Cruise missiles that barely missed bin Laden while Clinton was President). Now the Carriers have been marginally better, but given the Nature of the Gulf, Carriers have many of the same problems the Large Nuclear Subs have, to big to operate at full speed given the size of the Gulf and for that reason only marginally better then the Subs when it came to support the Troops and Marines.

Now the Air Force has done a better job then the Navy in Support of the Army and Marines, but even that support is marginal given the limited size of the opposing forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan (The War in both Countries have become an Infantryman's war, Mortars have been of some use, but given that the Guerrillas know the Air Force or Navy can supply Air Support within 20 minutes to almost everywhere in the Middle East, combat rarely last more then 15 minutes at which point the Guerrillas break contact. This is the result of out Air Superiority (Which is based to a degree on Carrier based Aircraft( but it also means almost no actual Air Combat Missions given that once the planes show up the Guerrillas generally leave.

In Simple terms the Subs have had nothing to do in regards to the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This will affect their budgets and the Submariners know it. They want to show that the Submarines are still important and the only way to do that is show that they have some relevancy to the Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran. The First two, there is not much the Subs can provide. Their Cruise Missiles do NOT have mid-course target changes (Needed given the time limit on engagements), thus the only target they can take is in Iran, which still has an Aircraft system and Nuclear fuel making equipment that missiles can take out. I suspect the Subs are in the Gulf more to show that they can launch such an attack (and this message is aimed more on Congress then Iran) and thus a valuable part of the US Defense System (As opposed to a system that will never be used given that most experts expect that wars over the next 20-50 years will be more like Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, i.e. Guerrilla operations vs Anti-Guerrilla Operations) then like WWII or anything like what was expected during the Cold War. Given that prospect Nuclear Submarines are of marginal importance and US Navy appear afraid that its budget will be cut do to the need to expand the Army and Marines without raising taxes (i.e. something has to be cut, and the Submarines appear the type of weapon we can do without better then anything else, with the possible exception of the F-22 and F35s, which also address a war we probably will not face for at least 20 years).

Thus the Hartford was in the Gulf so show that Nuclear Attack Submarines are still an important part of the US Defense system. The Navy is reading the same message I am reading, the Country want increased Domestic Spending to get this economy going BUT also wants cut back on military spending. Sooner or later something has to give, and the Submarine Service fears it will be them. The Carriers are NOT it that much better shape and nether is the Air Force, The Army has found one of its most effective weapons is the Vietnam Era Law Rockets. The Law was to be replaced in the 1990s by a more advance Anti-tank Rocket (And to a degree it was) but once in Iraq and Afghanistan the smaller size and lighter Weight of the Law made it more useful then its replacements (Which did NOT go over good with the contractors who had the contract for those replacements). The US Army is looking at giving its M1 tanks to the Iraqi army we have been building, forcing Congress to buy replacements, at $2 million a piece (Last price I check back in the 1990s, higher today). While this has been kicked around, Congress is choking at the Trillions of dollars going to the Financial system. With most people saying we need to spend more money domestically to get this economy going, Defense spending that does NOT raise employment will be cut back. Buying new Tanks, giving money to Wall Street, Baling out Mortgage holders, and maintaining equipment NOT needed today will be (if not already is) the wave of the Future. I can See Congress buying Tanks, for their are being used in Iraq, I can see Congress buying LAW Rockets, for their are being used in Iraq. I do Congress CUTTING back on anything in the Military budget that does NOT help protect the US TODAY (Not Tomorrow or even next week, let along next year). The Submarine service, I fear, is seeing the same mood, and it has nothing to show, thus why the Submarine had to go into the Gulf, where it should NOT be and where is is of marginal assistance. The Submarine Service is viewing itself expendable given the lack of use of the Subs against Iraq over the last five years. The Mission of the Hartford was to show the Submarine Service was still important in regards to the Wars in the Persian Gulf, in that it failed.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Sounds like you are thinking of the wrong type of sub.
(Or I am misreading your post.)

The Hartford is an attack sub (hunter-killer), not a huge ballistic missile sub. As such it is much smaller and more maneuverable.

The sub was probably doing recon and/or providing transportation for a SEAL team.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I know what the Hartford is, It is still to large a Sub for the Gulf
Carriers should NOT even operate in it, to small a space to maneuver (During the Cold War, there appears to have been standing orders to get them out of the Mediterranean, for it was viewed as to small except under severe circumstances). For Nuclear Subs, 180 feet is wading, NOT operating at depth. Except for the bottom, there is no place to hide, unlike the Ocean depths. Thus the lack of DEPTH and the lack of WIDTH and LENGTH should rule out most operations of large combat ships (Tankers are larger, but they ARE not maneuvering if engaged in combat, Tankers just sink, which is the big feat for Carriers, Attack Submarines and any other large vessel in the Gulf).

When I mentioned Missiles, I used the term Cruise Missiles, for those can be fired from a Torpedo tube. Such Cruise missiles have the range to hit Afghanistan let alone Iran. Furthermore none of the Subs are design to take a direct hit (unlike the old fashion Battleship which had the armor to take some hits).

My point is the best type of subs (if any) in the Gulf are small conventional power ones, first do to their very small size compared even to Attack Nuclear Subs, and the fact they can completely shut down unlike Nuclear subs whose reactors must be always on. All of the Advantages of a Nuclear Sub are lost in the Persian Gulf, it is like sending one up the Mississippi River, it can be done by why? The best Answer I can come up with is one that the US Navy Submarine service (Which went 100% Nuclear just as the Cold War Ended) and has found that its Budget in threatened do to fact other services are viewed as more important for US defense then any subs. If Congress has to decide on maintaining an Infantry Division or an Attack Submarine, the first question Congress will ask is which is more important in regards to our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the answer will be the Infantry Division. Thus the need for the submarine Service to get an Attack Sub into the Gulf appears more an effort to show how the Submarine Service looks like it has an important function in the war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran then any real reason to have such a large ship in such a small Gulf.

As to Recon or dropping off a Seal Team, both can be done from a tanker, Tankers are all over the gulf. Planes can do both jobs, small boats can do such jobs. The Gulf has been called a River System that just happened to drop below sea level then an arm of the sea. IT has some rough areas, but mostly shadow coast lines that a seal team, if it leaves via the Torpedo tubs or other method NOT requiring surfacing, would have to travel a good distance before hitting the shore. Thus a small boar can get a seal team CLOSER without being detected. Now the Gulf is Deeper on the Iranian Side of the Gulf, but only as the gulf nears the Straits of Hormuz, not near the Iraqi border, where it is half the depth it is at Hormuz.

The USS Hartford itself is 10 meters x 110 meters. Given that the gulf, at its deepest, is only 80 meters. As you near the coast, that depth cuts in half, and for a Submarine 50 meters is NOT enough room to move a 10 meter wide sub. It can be done, but it is a tight fit. Now the Gulf at its narrowest at the Gulf Of Hormuz is only 56 KM wide, most of the Gulf is 3-4 times that width, but that is NOT much room for a Nuclear Sub whose Max Speed is over 46 Kmph or 25 knots (through estimates of its actual top speed goes as high as double that number) and weigh almost 7000 tons (and can dive as deep a 290 meters, again what is admitted, its actual capacity is classified). The size of the Gulf means you will NEVER see the Hartford max out is number in the Gulf, but again why put such an expensive ship in a bathtub?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Hartford_(SSN-768)
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. It is rare to read a post from someone with so much to say -
and who knows so little about the topic he is speaking about.

God damn son!
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. My problem is the size of the sub AND the nature of the Gulf
The terrain of the Persian Gulf is the result of two geologic movements, first the movement of the tectonic plates, Arabia is slowly pushing northward into the Iran, the Gulf has thus been slowly becoming smaller over the last few million years.

Te second geological characteristics is that during the last Ice Age, sea levels were more the 80 meters lower then it is now, and the Persian Gulf was land with the Shatt al-Arab river flowing through it. The Glaciers did NOT even come near the Gulf, but so much water was tied up inside the Glaciers that world wide sea levels dropped 120-140 meters, which is below the depth of the present Gulf.

Topic of Current sea level raise, but show what Sea levels was during the ice Age:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise#Glaciers_and_ice_caps

Map showing the Gulf as dry land (Through the Gulf is NOT enlargeable on this map unlike Europe on this map):
http://www.pol.ac.uk/psmsl/palaeoshoreline_webpage/HTML/HOME.htm

Do to these two geological forces the Persian Gulf is a Shadow bathtub. Can subs operate in it, yes, so can an Amphibious truck race in the Indy 500. Nuclear Attack Subs can operate in the Gulf, I never said they could not, but like the Amphibious truck in the Indy 500, it will quickly be shown it is out of place. Nuclear Attack Subs were design for control of the Oceans, where depth and speed limits are set by the Capability of the Sub NOT the sea itself. The opposite rule applies to the Persian Gulf, how deep a sub can go is the bottom of the Gulf, no further, speed is governed by trying NOT to hit any surface vessels (The Gulf has extensive surface traffic) and not hit the bottom, or the sides (100-200 miles is NOT much space for a 7000 ton sub to maneuver at speed).

Another writer mentioned the Hartford was sent to the Gulf to watch Iranian Subs. The largest Iranian Subs are Kilo Class Russian Built Diesels, These are less then half the size of the Hartford (And Volume wise less then a 1/3). While the Kilo Class Subs could be quieter then the Hartford that is only when its engines are OFF (Which you can do with a Diesel), once running the Hartford is quieter, Given the Nature of the Gulf, the Kilo has excessive depth capability (Seems to have been purchased with eyes to the Arabian Sea, but not to far from the Iranian Coast). The rest of the Submarines the Iranians have (If any) tend to be propaganda devices i.e. "Look We have a New Sub" then promptly scrapped as useless. Now the Iranians do have some mini-subs, which are of great concern, but at 150 and 500 tons nothing more then a patrol boat (And people question if more then one of each type was ever built and question if they are still in service i.e. more to show WHAT could be built then actually building any).

More on the Ghadir Mini-Subs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadir_(submarine)

More on the Nahang Mini-subs (at about 500 tons):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahang_1

None of these subs are design to carry more then two missiles/torpedo's and the bigger one weigh less then a 1/3 of the German Built Dolphin Class Subs used by Israel.

More on the Dolphin Class:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_class_submarine

To use the Hartford to chase these subs is like sending a tank to watch someone on a bicycle on a bike path. Can it be done, yes, if the bicyclist goes off the path can the tank follow? Maybe yes, if the tank can through the trees or up the hillsides, no if the cyclist is careful at which point he or she leaves the bike path. The same with the much smaller mini-subs, through only to a degree with the Kilo Class (Which is why I Suspect their mission area is the Arabian Sea NOT the Persian Gulf, through I must point out that is speculative).

My problem with the Hartford in the Gulf is most, if not all of its advantages over Aircraft, Surface craft and other means to do its mission, disappear in the geological makeup of the Gulf itself. This is NOT the deep ocean. Lake Superior is over three times the average depth as the Persian Gulf, and has spots over four times as deep (Through Lake Superior is only 1/3 the Surface area of Persian Gulf, together the Big Three Great Lakes are just short of the total surface area of the Persian Gulf). Thus the Great Lakes have three times the Depth, similar surface area, through twice as much coast line, and I would NOT use a Nuclear Sub in the Great Lakes either for the same reason, it is to small a surface area, through the greater depths make the lakes more logical then the Gulf. Can the Hartford operate in the Great Lakes? Yes? Should it? (Assuming hostile relations with Canada which do NOT exist at the present time) NO, anything a Nuclear Attack Sub could do, can be done better by small boats, aircraft or even people just looking across the lake (Yes I know you can NOT see across the lake or the gulf, by you can see 20 miles on the ocean surface before the curvature of the earth make it impossible to see further, In the Oceans 15 miles is almost nothing, in the Gulf, like the Great Lakes, you are seeing over 1/4 of the Gulf by just staying on land, small boats can cover the rest of the Gulf (and you can see further by making the observation point higher, and given that Iran has extensive hills easier for them then then anyone else in the Gulf).

Remember that, when it comes to the Persian Gulf we are talking about an area smaller then the Great Lakes (Above I just used the big three, Superior, Michigan and Huron, if you include Erie and Ontario you are over the surface volume of the Persian Gulf). All, but one, of the Great Lakes have three times the depth of the Persian Gulf (The exception is Lake Erie which is shadower then the Persian Gulf). The Persian Gulf does not have the choke points of Niagara Fall and the St Clair Rivers (Both Bypassed by Locks) but is similar is having been dry land at one time subject to erosion which tended to give it a smooth slowing sloping bottom, unlike any other ocean bottom in the World (The Persian Gulf also is less salty then the deep ocean, do to its limited flows from the Ocean and its huge inflows from Rivers, thus during Desert Storm the US Navy had to pull out its Dolphin teams, for the Dolphins were having a difficult time adjusting to the low salt content, compared to the deep ocean, of the waters of the Persian Gulf).

Lake Superior:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Superior

Lake Michigan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Michigan

Lake Huron:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Huron

My problem is the Geological nature of the Gulf, it is NOT a good area for Carriers (Being surrounded on all sides by land where missiles, small boats and Aircraft can attack from) nor Large Submarines, given the lack of depth in addition to the tight operating area caused by the nature of the coast surrounding the Gulf.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Attack submarines can operate in that region just fine.
Which is why the Navy does it and has been doing it for decades. 688 Class submarines were there to launch cruise missiles when the Iraq war started. Sure, the 688 is an older design, but they have been upgraded and modernized to ensure littoral capabilities are there. Add to that that the new Post-Cold War Virginia Class is specifically designed for Littoral operations, and I find no problem with submarines operating in the Gulf. There are a lot of advantages to keeping a vessel in the Gulf that cannot be spotted on radar, seen, or heard on passive sonar. It doesn't matter if it's nuclear or AIP, active sonar will spot you, but you'd be suicidal to try and depth charge a modern submarine. Think MK48 ADCAP.

The Hunt for Red October was a fictional movie, not a documentary - And that's why I pointed out that you know nothing on the topic.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-21-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. The boat is there to keep track of
the three Iranian diesel submarines that they have accepted delivery of recently. Best way to track a sub is with a sub. With 40 years of practice shadowing Soviet diesel and nuclear submarines I suspect that it is a mission the SSN can accomplish, even in the gulf.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-20-09 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. They could be setting up a fence for a troop withdrawal.
As for why they ran into each other. If you do it enough times you are bound to screw up once, especially in the straights.
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-22-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
42. If only the USA would keeps it's War-Machine in it's own waters
.
.
.

none of this would be happening

GO HOME ALREADY

frigadee

Not much wonder Russia is contemplating naval surveillance around the USA,

and the Chinese are targeting satellites.

USA - WAKE UP!

The World is getting tired of your bullying, genocidal habits.

Go home - and give peace a chance . .

Let the others fight their own wars.

They might even be better at it.

USA's domination sorta sucks.

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